AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: dubkarma on 20 Nov 2010, 02:38 am
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Can anyone offer any impressions of the new SC4 speaker cables? I recently installed a pair, replacing the previous Bryston/Vandamme cables and, more recently, a humble pair of Canare 4S11. I've also used the Supra Classic 6 (9 AWG).
So far--admittedly after only half-a-dozen hours of play--I'm flabbergasted: to my ears, my system has lost 4-6 dB of SPL. Now my mind says this is simply impossible, but on very familiar tracks, I have to goose up the volume knob on the BP-26 well beyond what I've been accustomed to. Admittedly, I've not "proved" this loss by using an SPL meter and carefully noting the position of the volume control, but I'm very familiar with this system and have never, ever before had the volume control of the preamp at the 12 o'clock position, even at parties. . .
[Associated gear: Dedicated 20 amp line from 3-phase electrical supply, isolated ground hospital-grade outlet, Torus RM15, Bryston BP-26MC, Tascam CD-01U Pro (as transport), Lavry Black DA10 (modified), Bryston BCD-1, Technics SP-10MKII/Signet XK50 arm/Ortofon Super OM40, Perreaux TU3, Mogami 3173 interconnects, Son of Ampzilla 2000 amp (100/200/400 Wrms @ 8/4/2 ohms) Tannoy System 15 DMT II speakers, no-name 12 and 10AWG AC cables.]
In befuddlement,
Joel.
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More dynamics, I'd say.
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Just curious:
Did the SC4 replace the 4S11 or the Bryston/Vandamme cables? I know nothing about the latter but based upon my experiences I would have expected some change since your going from a 4 X 14AWG (Ref. Canare) to a 4 X 12AWG (Ref. Bryston. I guess the combo cables means you had the older Bryston 9AWG going to one set of terminals and the Vandamme going to another? Or don't I understand what's going on.
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You were not using Bryston amps that is why. :lol: :duh: j/k
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Can anyone offer any impressions of the new SC4 speaker cables? I recently installed a pair, replacing the previous Bryston/Vandamme cables and, more recently, a humble pair of Canare 4S11. I've also used the Supra Classic 6 (9 AWG).
So far--admittedly after only half-a-dozen hours of play--I'm flabbergasted: to my ears, my system has lost 4-6 dB of SPL. Now my mind says this is simply impossible, but on very familiar tracks, I have to goose up the volume knob on the BP-26 well beyond what I've been accustomed to. Admittedly, I've not "proved" this loss by using an SPL meter and carefully noting the position of the volume control, but I'm very familiar with this system and have never, ever before had the volume control of the preamp at the 12 o'clock position, even at parties. . .
[Associated gear: Dedicated 20 amp line from 3-phase electrical supply, isolated ground hospital-grade outlet, Torus RM15, Bryston BP-26MC, Tascam CD-01U Pro (as transport), Lavry Black DA10 (modified), Bryston BCD-1, Technics SP-10MKII/Signet XK50 arm/Ortofon Super OM40, Perreaux TU3, Mogami 3173 interconnects, Son of Ampzilla 2000 amp (100/200/400 Wrms @ 8/4/2 ohms) Tannoy System 15 DMT II speakers, no-name 12 and 10AWG AC cables.]
In befuddlement,
Joel.
Hi Joel
Well that's one for the books for sure :scratch: The only thing I can think of is that the overall dynamic range has improved and you are able to increase the volume. If there is less distortion in the system the tendency to turn the system up is one of the things I have noticed. Still given the cables you were already using I am surprised at the change :scratch:
James
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Hi Joel
Just a thought - no chance something is out of phase?
James
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Thanks all for your comments.
James, in answer to your question, I don't see how the cables could be out of phase as I've carefully checked that the red and black leads are all going to the same binding posts. (I'm assuming the cables were terminated correctly.)
1Zip, in answer to your question, I've used both the 4 x 14 AWG Canare (biwired) and the 9 AWG Vandamme (single-wired) with my system—hundreds of hours in each case—although immediately before switching in the SC4 I was using the Canare.
I am beginning to wonder whether my amplifier doesn't like the higher capacitance of the SC4. After a week of using the SC4, I've just switched the Canare 4S11 back into the system. The difference I really notice is that the SC4 sound, for want of a better word, "flat." Cymbols have lost some of their shimmer; bass guitar is deep and well-defined, but dull-sounding; rim-shots on snare drums have lost their startling "crack." That sort of thing. Could it be that, with the SC4, harmonics are not reproduced as faithfully because of the amplifier. . .?
I also took a look at the specs of my amp (Son of Ampzilla 2000). The manufacturer has posted graphs on its website. Interestingly, the SOA2000 is already 0.5 dB down at 20 kHz, whereas big solid state amps such as Bryston are typically pretty flat well beyond 50 kHz. This suggests that if the additional capacitance of the SC4 is having some effect, an amp like the SOA2000 would be more susceptible than a wider bandwidth amp like a Bryston.
While Canare, for example, does not give specs for inductance, it does specify impedance of 0.9 ohms per foot and capacitance of 45 ohms per foot. The SC4 is specified @ .0008 ohms/ft. and 70 pf/ft. Don't know the figures for the Vandamme cable.
If that doesn't make sense, I just have to continue to be stumped.
In any case, I'll keep switching back and forth between the cables and seeing what, if aught, I notice.
Thanks again for all your comments.
Joel.
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James, in answer to your question, I don't see how the cables could be out of phase as I've carefully checked that the red and black leads are all going to the same binding posts. (I'm assuming the cables were terminated correctly.)
Perhaps you should verify this with a continuity test, just to make sure.
Steve
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Steve,
Testing the continuity of the cables is a good idea, if only to eliminate every possibility.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Joel.
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Reporting back on the new SC4 speaker cables with which I'd been having trouble.
After testing by amplifier and cable switching, I can only conclude there's some problem with the power amp I've been using in that system.
When I switched in another amplifier, one I know well (MC2 Audio MC750), the SC4—or, rather, the system—lost that constricted, dull quality I mentioned earlier in this thread. Ditto with an upgraded McCormack DNA-1 and a B.A.T. VK-200.
Now I can go ahead and compare the SC4 (4 x 12 AWG) to the previous Vandamme (2 x 9 AWG), the Canare 4S11 (4 x 14 AWG) and the Mogami 3104 (4 x 12 AWG) and know that I'm actually comparing cables.
Will endeavour to report back. . .
Cheers,
Joel.
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That would be interesting feedback. :thumb:
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Just received mine about 3hrs ago.
Nice and simple cable(meat and potatoes)type.
Been using them the last hour,(nothing lost here)way to early,but what I hear I like.
highs are clean and crisp,bottom's there and I'm sure they'll give up more.
I'd better get back and put em to work a little bit harder,faders up :thumb:.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39086)
james
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Definately,no vol loss here(as far as the new SC4).......C-4 wtf :o :bomb:.I had to :D.
Joel,no vol loss,I do want to keep pumping it up though,that's a good thing.
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Hi,
I switched from Nordost Super Flatline to the new Bryston cables and did not notice any changes. Both are shot-gunned bi-wire configurations.
Steve
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Bi-wire:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39114)
james
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Now I can go ahead and compare the SC4 (4 x 12 AWG) to the previous Vandamme (2 x 9 AWG), the Canare 4S11 (4 x 14 AWG) and the Mogami 3104 (4 x 12 AWG) and know that I'm actually comparing cables.
Will endeavour to report back. . .
Cheers,
Joel.
This would make for very good reading! The cables you mentioned are the ones i have in mind as well.
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Posted this in the other thread, but it would probably be more appropriate here...
I'd like to hear what you think of the SC4 vs Canare 4S11. I bought them a while back due to needing about 25 feet per side. They sounded pretty good, no complaints at all. After moving, I shortened them to 8 feet per side. It was like a big veil was lifted. It wasn't the new room, as I set everything up in the new room and listened to the system for about 3 months before I shortened them. I meant to shorten them since day one, but never got around to it.
I've always run the 4S11 as single wire, not bi-wire. Bi-wiring my old speakers (PSB Image T55) didn't sound as good as single wiring and using a short run of the 4S11 as a jumper. My current speakers aren't bi-wirable (Audio Physic Yara Evolution bookshelf).
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I had a similar experience with the 4S11. I tried bi-wiring the Paradigms in my second system with the Canare and the configuration did not sound good, especially in the mid range. I undid the bi-wiring and the problems disappeared. I assumed that it was of function going from 4 x 14 to 2 x 11? I'm still using the 4S11 in the 2 x 11 mode but I'm seriously thinking of the SC4 as a replacement and going to bi-wiring again. I have to admit I'm impressed with the little Studio 20's V4!
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The Studio 20s are great speakers IMO. Especially with good and clean power like Bryston.
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To my ears the difference in cables is so small that it may only exist in my head.Then again maybe my hearing simply isn't good enough.
This is one thing I do know from experience; what you have plugged into in certain circuits can have a dramatic effect( it can be like changing speakers the effect can be that great). ie. play around with source/preamp/amp being on the same circuits,different circuits,2 on one ,each on their own etc...It is astonishing that such differences can exist. I would have never believed it if I hadn't discovered it quite by accident one time.
I had changed something in my system and so I unplugged the preamp and source to make this change.When I was finished trying it I reconnected the system as before but the sound suddenly was very closed in. I checked,double checked,triple checked and couldn't understand what in the world had happened.Then it occurred to me that the only difference was that I had reversed the plug ins for the source and preamp. I changed them back and instantly the sound was back.It simply never occurred to me that a difference could possibly exist. This was the case in my previous house as well as my present house( perhaps bad power in both areas). In any event it doesn't cost anything to try it.
I know it must sound completely crazy( but I am not a "tweek" kind of guy whatsoever).Most of my wire are BLUEJEANS with the exception of my speaker wire which is BRYSTON. I don't have cones,spikes or silk clothes under anything as I simply never heard a difference but the circuit thing was dramatic.....
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Hi Joel,
What's the verdict ?
I'm especially interested in how:
Van Damme (4 x 9awg.) is vs. Bryston (4 x 12awg.)
I'm currently using 2 pair of Van Damme's bi-wired to my 4BSST2 (base/mids via banana and highs via spades).
Thanks,
BrystonFan
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Well, I've spent a week going back and forth between the Canare 4S11 cables and the new SC4. Both are in bi-wire configuration Both use WBT-style bananas on all ends, although the ones that come with the Bryston cables strike me as better quality. No way to compare the materials used, though, since I simply don't know.
In favour of the 4S11: higher SPL at the same volume setting on the preamp. This doesn't make the least bit of sense to me, especially since the SC4 is a 4 x 12 AWG cable compared to the 4S11's 4 x 14 AWG and the SWC4 is a 10 foot pair while the 4S11 is 12 feet. But I keep noticing it. Perhaps the SC4 adds less to the sound, that is, alters the signal from the power amp less in which case there's actually less "information" being transmitted by the SC4 with the result that a higher volume setting is required to achieve the same total SPL. If not that, I'll just have to remain mystified.
In favour of the SC4: Pretty much everything else! Deeper more clearly articulated bass; less bright, but at the same time more detailed HF (e.g., percussive metal sounds like cymbals, tympanis, gongs, cowbells); less sibilance on vocals, especially female vocals (love that Azam Ali!); more vivid transients; better separation of different instruments, i.e., quieter, more "delicate" sounds less "swamped" by louder sounds.
Now I can move on (or back in time) and compare the SC4 to the Bryston-Vandamme cable. One problem there is that the Vandamme is single wire and the SC4 is biwired—and I'm not about to reconfigure the SC4.
[Associated equipment: Technics SP-10MKII on davinci_redux birch plywood plinth (thanks again, Leon!) with Jelco SA-750E tonearm and Reson Reca cartridge; Perreaux TU3 tuner; Bryston BCD-1 CD player and Tascam CD-01U/Lavry Black DA10 DAC; Bryston BP-26MC; Ayre P-5xe phono stage; MC2 Audio MC750 amplifier; Tannoy System 15 DMT II speakers; Torus RM15; Mogami 3107 for all interconnects, digital and analogue, balanced and single-ended; DIY power cables (Carol 12 AWG for sources/preamp; Carol 10 AWG for power amp and Torus); isolated ground AC receptacle (requires 4-conductor wire) on dedicated 20 amp feed.]
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Cool review. Thanks.
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Thanks for the report dubkarma, the gain difference has be stumped as well :scratch:
You can just tie the 2 reds and two blacks togther if you want to try the SC4 as a single cable.
james
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Can one get the SC4 single wired?
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Can one get the SC4 single wired?
You mean just 2 wires inside the jacket rather than 4?
james
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No, James, outside the jacket. 2 leads. 1 black, 1 red.
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No, James, outside the jacket. 2 leads. 1 black, 1 red.
Yes that is the way it would normally be used.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39384)
james
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Ok, how much is a pair with bananas on both ends?
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dubkarma,
I echo your findings on the "pluses" found with the new SC4 cables. Out of the box one of the quickest realizations was that the bass was much better than my former cables.
I can also advise that I too experience a difference in gain with the Bryston cables with them requiring a touch more volume on my preamp. No explanation, not an EE so I don't have an answer but will say that I am very pleased with the new speaker cables and feel they perform well above their price point. Probably shouldn't have said this as the price will go up in January :duh: - get them sooner than later just in case :wink:
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Ok, how much is a pair with bananas on both ends?
Hi Dave,
$9.00 a foot for the cable - Spades at $5.00 each and bananas are $10.00 each.
james
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Ok, cool. I'll let you know.
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Ron:
Just curious, are your speaker cable runs about the same length as Dubkarma's., i.e., 10 -12 feet?
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I have been using the SC4 cables (8 ft) for a couple of weeks now. The main thing that I have noticed is a more cohesive and somewhat larger soundstage. I did not notice any change in volume but I do think everyone has a tendency to up the volume when system improvements are realized. If it sounds good a higher volume is appreciated with the corollary being that if it does not sound good - turn it down...
Tony
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my old cables were 16' and the new ones are 15' so in my books no appreciable difference and I highly doubt that moving to a "shorter" cable would create the need for addt'l gain, I would expect the opposite but I defer the science of it to an EE, which I am not. As information my amps are 7Bs and my speakers are Maggie 1.6's.
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I agree with you, didn't mean to imply otherwise. My cable lengths will be 22 ft., just trying to bracket the feedback!
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This is the best money for the buck! :)
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From: out theresomeone
Sent: April-30-11 2:31 AM
To: James Tanner
Subject: Update
Hi James
Despite the minor complications with custom agency, the cables arrived safely. Sure they are not the kind of fancy looking cables wrapped in snake skin and presented in a hundred dollar Peli case. But on yes, they are still superb performers.
And by the way, my system is finally up and running. The 14B SST2 and BP26 etc. I must say that they are like a match made in heaven along side my PMCs, i never expected to realize that i've been missing out on so much joy and fine musical details. I'd like to quote a short sentence from one of PMC's pro brochure : ' ... Every bryston product is hand crafted by very nice people who belive they are building the ultimate amplifier.' . well, now based on personal experience, i can say that i belive them, and i belive you. So, thank you James, and all 'bryston peoples'.
Best regards.
XK.
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Hey James, what's the minimum length I would need for the 4BSST to each speaker? 4 or 5 ft? The amp is directly between the speakers on a Target base.
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Hey James, what's the minimum length I would need for the 4BSST to each speaker? 4 or 5 ft? The amp is directly between the speakers on a Target base.
The speaker cable has to be long enough to reach from the amp to the speaker :lol:
james
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The speaker cable has to be long enough to reach from the amp to the speaker :lol:
james
Haha, I know that. But how far apart should I have my speakers. Well, anyway, I suppose 4 ft. will be enough...
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Haha, I know that. But how far apart should I have my speakers. Well, anyway, I suppose 4 ft. will be enough...
Dave,
Depending on the dispersion characteristics of your speakers try to separate the speakers the same distance you are away from them. So if you're 8 feet away separate them by 8 feet or slightly less. You do not want a hole in the middle of the sound stage but you also want as wide a soundstage as possible.
james
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Dave,
Depending on the dispersion characteristics of your speakers try to separate the speakers the same distance you are away from them. So if you're 8 feet away separate them by 8 feet or slightly less. You do not want a hole in the middle of the sound stage but you also want as wide a soundstage as possible.
james
I'll make a note of it, James.
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Hi James,
which termination would you recommend for these speakercables to connect the 28b's to Quad ESl63's? And how would I have to preceed in ordering them? They would have to be about two feet long.
Grtz,
Marius
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Hi James,
which termination would you recommend for these speakercables to connect the 28b's to Quad ESl63's? And how would I have to preceed in ordering them? They would have to be about two feet long.
Grtz,
Marius
Hi Marius
I would recommend the large spades on the amp end and the bananas on the speaker end. Just email Melissa at Bryston if you want a set - mmiles@Bryston.com
James
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consider it done, thanx,
Marius
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Hi Marius
I would recommend the large spades on the amp end and the bananas on the speaker end. Just email Melissa at Bryston if you want a set - mmiles@Bryston.com
James
Why not bananas at the amp end, James?
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Some amps do not take bananas.
Why not bananas at the amp end, James?
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Some amps do not take bananas.
he's using 28B, the knob accepts both spades and bananas. ( so bi-wiring = spade + banana on the 28B)
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Why not bananas at the amp end, James?
Hi Dave,
The large spades we sell are heavily gold plated and snap into the bnding posts on the Bryston amps. It provides a large non corrosive surface and a molecularly tight fit. On most speakers the binding post sometimes will not accept a spade very well so I find our 'expandable' banana works better in most cases.
james
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i just removed my banana's from my amp (4bsst2) and speakers as i was not getting a very good contact. it could have been because they were 20 years old and a bit oxidized or metal fatigue had set in. quite happy with just the spades no both ends now
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Hi Dave,
The large spades we sell are heavily gold plated and snap into the bnding posts on the Bryston amps. It provides a large non corrosive surface and a molecularly tight fit. On most speakers the binding post sometimes will not accept a spade very well so I find our 'expandable' banana works better in most cases.
james
Ok, cool. Spades at the amp end it is!
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Hi James,
I was thinking about getting some of your new speaker cable to go with my new 4BSST2, but from the UK do I need to go through PMC or can I buy directly from you guys, or would the postage be prohibitive?
Cheers
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Hi James,
I was thinking about getting some of your new speaker cable to go with my new 4BSST2, but from the UK do I need to go through PMC or can I buy directly from you guys, or would the postage be prohibitive?
Cheers
Direct - PMC does not carry the cable. Contact Melissa at Bryston and she will give you a cost. mmyles@bryston.com
james
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Direct - PMC does not carry the cable. Contact Melissa at Bryston and she will give you a cost. mmyles@bryston.com
james
Excellent, I will have a measure up and get in touch.
Thanks
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Hi James,
I ordered with Mmiles@bryston.com as you hinted, but never got an answer. Mmyles@bryston should do the trick?
8)
Marius
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Hi James,
I ordered with Mmiles@bryston.com as you hinted, but never got an answer. Mmyles@bryston should do the trick?
8)
Marius
mmyles@bryston.com
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Hi
I just got 2 new sets of SC4. I mistakenly ordered 4 pairs instead of 2 pairs. Spades were for amp and bananas for speaker. So now am thinking of using them as a bi-wire of sorts (PMC speakers). Since the amp will not be able to fit both spades, as it too thick I am thinking of connecting the spare pair using the bananas. This means reversing the cable.
So my question is are the signal flow of the speaker cables engineered for 1 direction only.
VK
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So my question is are the signal flow of the speaker cables engineered for 1 direction only.
In general (and for ease) always go in the direction of the text printed on the cable. So:
AMPLIFIER ===> this is the text printed on the cable ===> LOUDSPEAKERS
And not:
LOUDSPEAKERS ===> this is the text printed on the cable ===> AMPLIFIER
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In general (and for ease) always go in the direction of the text printed on the cable. So:
AMPLIFIER ===> this is the text printed on the cable ===> LOUDSPEAKERS
And not:
LOUDSPEAKERS ===> this is the text printed on the cable ===> AMPLIFIER
Yes you are right but I am wondering whether I can use them in reverse cause I need to connect the 2 pair via the bananas at the amp end. I guess will have to try to see how it sounds.
VK
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Would the cable sound different going:
LOUDSPEAKERS ===> this is the text printed on the cable ===> AMPLIFIER?
In general (and for ease) always go in the direction of the text printed on the cable. So:
AMPLIFIER ===> this is the text printed on the cable ===> LOUDSPEAKERS
And not:
LOUDSPEAKERS ===> this is the text printed on the cable ===> AMPLIFIER
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We have done extensive testing (even employing molecular directional signs) and so far the electrons in the Bryston speaker wire have not learned or are unwilling to learn which direction they are suppose to go in :thumb:
james
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(even employing molecular directional signs)
james
You do know someone will ask for those now as an upgrade :duh: :duh:
Cheers
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Hi Dave,
The large spades we sell are heavily gold plated and snap into the bnding posts on the Bryston amps. It provides a large non corrosive surface and a molecularly tight fit. On most speakers the binding post sometimes will not accept a spade very well so I find our 'expandable' banana works better in most cases.
james
So then the molecules are made of "pure crystal" ? :scratch:
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So then the molecules are made of "pure crystal" ? :scratch:
Preferably in a connection gold to gold molecules. :thumb:
james
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Preferably in a connection gold to gold molecules. :thumb:
james
:lol:
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Preferably in a connection gold to gold molecules. :thumb:
james
:wink:
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Slightly more on topic, I had hoped to get some of this cable to go with my new 4BSST2 I have on order, but unfortunately the shipping to the UK and the new costs of the connectors makes it a bit expensive.
James is there any chance of PMC stocking this, to make the price (assuming PMC don't put on a big mark-up) a bit more accessible over this side of the pond?
Cheers
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Slightly more on topic, I had hoped to get some of this cable to go with my new 4BSST2 I have on order, but unfortunately the shipping to the UK and the new costs of the connectors makes it a bit expensive.
James is there any chance of PMC stocking this, to make the price (assuming PMC don't put on a big mark-up) a bit more accessible over this side of the pond?
Cheers
Hi - I think our export manager discussed it with PMC but they did not feel it had much of a market in the UK.
james
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Hi - I think our export manager discussed it with PMC but they did not feel it had much of a market in the UK.
james
That is a shame, thank you for letting me know.
I might just send them an email, in case they have second thoughts..
Cheers
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We have done extensive testing (even employing molecular directional signs) and so far the electrons in the Bryston speaker wire have not learned or are unwilling to learn which direction they are suppose to go in :thumb:
james
:icon_lol:
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Hi James.
Wonder if you and the team used Bryston cables (IC, speakers, digital, & AC) exclusively in all listening tests for your product development, whether in Bryston's facilities and in your many rooms and setups at home?
Thanks.
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Good question! I would like to know this as well...
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Hi James.
Wonder if you and the team used Bryston cables (IC, speakers, digital, & AC) exclusively in all listening tests for your product development, whether in Bryston's facilities and in your many rooms and setups at home?
Thanks.
Usually at home for the listening tests because I can do a double blind test.
James
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James, do you find that the system sounds better with all Bryston cables?
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James, do you find that the system sounds better with all Bryston cables?
Better is a tough one as I find one persons better is sometimes another persons worst. What we try to do with our Bryston cables is reduce the cables affect on the electrical signal as much as possible - recognizing that the best cable is no cable at all.
james
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Yeah, that's true. And I agree. I will be ordering some speaker cable in the future.
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Do the small spades fit on the cables in a standard L/R wiring? The web site says 10 gauge is the largest, however I see a few pictures that seem to show the small spades being used.
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Do the small spades fit on the cables in a standard L/R wiring? The web site says 10 gauge is the largest, however I see a few pictures that seem to show the small spades being used.
Hi Frank - I would not recommend the small spades with our cables.
james
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As most are aware we had an all Bryston system for our June club meeting. We had a desire to change out some cabling but after listening we had zero desire to change a thing. In our opinion there is no need to look further in cabling with Bryston gear. A no brainer in our opinion. Powercords another issue. In another venue and system PI audio digital PC with the Bryston CDP and Triode WireLabs on amp is another no brainer.
charles
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Then I'll just go Bananas :D
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Rollo,
Are you referring only to Bryston speaker wire that the group was happy with? Or also interconnects/XLR?
Also, how did the Triode Wirelabs powercord enhance the sound of the amp?
As most are aware we had an all Bryston system for our June club meeting. We had a desire to change out some cabling but after listening we had zero desire to change a thing. In our opinion there is no need to look further in cabling with Bryston gear. A no brainer in our opinion. Powercords another issue. In another venue and system PI audio digital PC with the Bryston CDP and Triode WireLabs on amp is another no brainer.
charles