NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!

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jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2800 on: 12 Mar 2016, 07:27 pm »
I have been following this thread along with many other articles and sites about NXT and DML speaker technology. I also happen to live about 10 minutes from Parts Express's warehouse which is a big bonus. It seems that panel material is everything and I have been able to find a material 3mm thick, but lighter and much stiffer than gatorboard or basic foam core. With this I have been able to make speakers as small as 11x14 but that still provide good volume, and this panel material has the high frequency response that the foam core boards did not have. Even though they do sound pretty good for full range speakers, especially considering the material cost for each is about $20.00 including the frame, the best application is really for the surround channels of a home theater room. For full range speakers they really work will with an 8" amped subwoofer. I have had a tremendous interest from friends and neighbors and maybe there is an actual market for these.










jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2801 on: 13 Mar 2016, 12:58 am »
They don't sound like the $1200.00 Boston Acoustics towers sitting next to them in the pic, and they are really designed for use with a subwoofer or as surround speakers. I have even built hi pass filters into the frame enclosures to block low end bass for these types of uses.



jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2802 on: 15 Mar 2016, 09:49 pm »
Testing mic did not come in today but I took these tests with an iphone app today. Certainly not professional but they do show a fairly flat response all the way down to 125hz which I think is not bad for a small panel of just 11" x 14".  The high frequency response is what I thought was much improved from other panel materials I have tried and the response is good even 90 degrees off axis (second graph). Both test taken at 6' distance.











Odal3

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2803 on: 16 Mar 2016, 03:53 am »
Looks very nice. Well done! I got some panels as surround too but without the nice frames you have. What material are you using? Is it something that can be picked up at the printshop?

jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2804 on: 16 Mar 2016, 10:12 am »
Its not commercially available as far as I know, it comes from friends that work at Wright Patt AFB in areas that they cant even discuss what they do.

sedge

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2805 on: 18 Mar 2016, 12:53 pm »
They do look very nice ,although I don't see any wire's going up to the panels,have you channelled them into the wall?
These are basically wharfedale picture panels pp 1s which are not made any more,they used to xo them at about 160hz to a rather noisy sub ,you always new it was there,I don't think there was an xo on the sub.
A good idea for surround speakers.
Steve

jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2806 on: 18 Mar 2016, 03:54 pm »
Yes, I ran the wires through the walls. I am searching for a rechargeable truly wireless solution to build into them but I have not found such a product. I have heard the Wharfedales and they never really sounded that good, especially at the top end. Although I have used these with a good 8" sub for full range speaker duty, they are most effective as a surround sound speaker with real wife appeal.

sedge

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2807 on: 22 Mar 2016, 12:44 pm »
Its not commercially available as far as I know, it comes from friends that work at Wright Patt AFB in areas that they cant even discuss what they do.
Sounds a bit like the X files ,if you suddenly disappear we will know what's happened to you!!!
Probably buried in an underground bunker somewhere being forced to make panels that will take over the world and make slaves of us all.
Enjoy :thumb:
Steve

jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2808 on: 23 Mar 2016, 03:01 pm »
I could only find one company that is currently selling an affordable nxt type panel speaker. Onsia.com sells these Art Panel speakers which are essentially a stretched canvas frame with a panel and two very cheap exciters mounted inside the frame. They also include a bluetooth mono amp to drive the speakers and they cannot be hooked to a nomarl audio system which rules out stereo pairs or use in a surround sound application. The real issue though is that they sound like crap. virtually no bass, no high end and no volume. The sound a bit like listening to an AM radio. They definitely have a novelty factor and the bluetooth connection is intriguing, but I am hoping to get a full refund.









jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2809 on: 23 Mar 2016, 06:46 pm »
They did end up giving me a refund. This product of theirs good actually be good if they spent an extra $10.00 on better exciters and panel material as I also noticed when I took it apart that they are using cheap foam core as the panel material, which is a good reason there is no high frequency response.

osssyvan

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2810 on: 16 Apr 2016, 09:22 am »
I've laying low and seeing what you been doing for a while. Anything interesting going on with or coming soon?

I've been busy doing everything else so my hobby has been neglected. Only hope is next Monday when we have game night with friends. I promised something experimental for background music. I have two octagonal cardboard (gaylord) lids waiting. I think they are roughly 1,2 m wide and tall. That should prove to be interesting. I'll let you know what happened. For movies I've been really longing for my ply ones. After cutting them shorter they really never were the same again..

Definitely when I get to make my HT system it will these or small BMR speakers. I've actually thinking that NXT panels could be great for dolby atmos ceiling speakers. You could make them really low key and blend well with the roof. Wide dispersion should be great and we all know how great they sound for home theater use anyway.

I'd be thrilled to know if someone has "perfected" the painting ones that they can actually share. I think small as possible with roughly 100 hZ cut off would nice. I was wondering if ultra thin carbon fiber glued to back of the canvas could do the trick. Any experience?

-Ossi

arachni42

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2811 on: 23 Apr 2016, 12:35 am »
@Ossi Going on, yes. Coming soon, no. I tend to experiment with a lot of things but be very slow to actually finish anything. ;) NXT panels probably would be good for ceilings, although I haven't tried it. They're lightweight so they seem ideal for mounting. Personally I'm convinced they'd be good for all kinds of things!

As far as my own projects...

I've played with some various pieces of cardboard to see what kind of stuff would both sound good and look good. I tried spraypaint, although the cardboard loves to soak it up, so it's hard to get nice-looking color. In retrospect... duh. I've never tried painting cardboard before, but it makes sense that it needs to be sealed first.

I'm sure PVA glue would help, but I decided to try some other things: gesso, Claycrete, Mod Podge, and then finally water-based polyurethane. (From what I can tell, Mod Podge is PVA + PU, but I don't need the glue part of it and PU comes in larger containers.) I didn't try shellac as I've never used it before, and I figured PU would have a similar effect. To my ear, they all seemed to improve the sound, although my coat of PU damped the cardboard more than the Mod Podge... probably because I laid it on really thick. If I sanded it down I'm guessing it would be about the same. None of these things warped the cardboard, but they did cause buckling in the corrugations, especially the thick coat. I haven't gotten farther than that.

Meanwhile, I've been reading a couple white papers I was able to find about DML technology. They're a few years old but still informative. It's all stuff that's essentially been mentioned before, but it did help me understand the relationship between the frequency, the elasticity, the density, and the edge conditions.

The reason sandwich panels are favored by manufacturers is because thin plates separated by a less stiff core combine different mechanisms of wave propagation. Each mechanism has some weaknesses, but this construction evens out the frequency response.

Of course, professional panels, besides being made of expensive materials, are also sandwiched with the help of heat and/or pressure. For me, I think coating something less stiff (like cardboard) with something more stiff (like PU) is the most I'm going to do. Cardboard all by itself *is* a type of sandwich construction, but I like it better treated.

After reading all of this I spent one evening experimenting with XPS edges -- clamping them, holding them, etc. It certainly made a difference, although after awhile my ears were tired and I couldn't decide on anything that was "best." I also treated one side of an XPS 2x2 panel I had with a coat of PU. Interesting, it seemed to have a very similar effect to clamping, at least to my ear.

I also still have designs on making cargo-cover subwoofer in my car. I've had trouble getting very strong bass from my 2x4 1" thick XPS panels... but they were hooked up to a pretty puny amp and have a single 20W excited on each. I'm building a Gainclone, but that's still in progress. For the heck of it I decided to try using the amp and subwoofer channel from some old computer speakers I don't use anymore. I got a 2x4 2" thick panel of XPS, and I hooked up 2 DAEX30HESF-4, which are rated for 40W and just plain have more oomph than the others. I was very pleased with the results -- for the first time, I was hearing some significant bass! So, on my (increasingly long) list of things to do is to treat and shape this panel to actually fit in my car.

Also, one day when I was rambling on about panel speakers, a friend of mine asked if they could be used as the speaker for a guitar amp. Well... why not. I think we will explore this further just for kicks. ;)

I guess a lot of things have been going on, I just haven't finished any of them!

osssyvan

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2812 on: 30 Apr 2016, 03:38 am »
Arachni, will be nice to hear how your experiments go. I can't say that I liked my cardboard lids too much. Although I did not get a very good chance to use them either.

I might go with Dibond next time. I google translated the forum that someone mentioned here of and it was interesting. With one exciter they generally had some tinny and hollowness but with enough exciters to excite to whole surface the problem was gone.

-Ossi

osssyvan

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2813 on: 3 May 2016, 03:24 pm »
Arachni, I forgot to comment on the guitar amp speakers. At least with ply acoustic guitar sounds great! I think that at least with amped acoustic guitar it would be great.

jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2814 on: 9 May 2016, 12:17 am »
So I have been working with these panels for a while now, attempting to come up with a truly marketable surround sound or full range with subwoofer DML design. After various attempts I have come up with these speakers that can use any poster or printed image. I am using a single Dayton Audio DAEX25FHE-4 in each speaker. I also included a 400hz high pass filter in each as there is little need for low bass in a surround sound application or use with a subwoofer. This also quells any rattles with picture frames hanging against a wall. I am very happy with the sound and the high end especially is better than what I have heard out of a lot of other speakers like these, especially the ones I purchased from Onsia.com which sounded like an AM radio.











arachni42

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2815 on: 17 May 2016, 10:04 pm »
jmanes, looks like you have a nice setup there. By "marketable" do you mean that you plan to actually market the design? I've been curious about how the NXT patent licensing works. I imagine that there is a good niche market for it. Have you done any research on that?

osssyvan

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2816 on: 18 May 2016, 07:42 pm »
jmanes,

The 400hz high pass sounds quite high to me. Don't you get some adverse effects from that? I think usually surrounds aim for 100-150hz.

-Ossi

Folsom

Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2817 on: 18 May 2016, 08:13 pm »
Yes that's very high. I'm trying to interest James in looking at custom amplification that can bring the frequency response down.

Use bumpers to reduce rattle. I think these are superior for what I've used. I use them behind things in my listening room to make them not rattle etc.

jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2818 on: 23 May 2016, 03:39 pm »
I am trying to take this to a marketable product, going so far as to find suppliers in China for frames, panels, exciters, terminals and artwork. I use the 400hz filters for speakers to be used for surround sound as there is little sound below that level to the rear channels and it keeps the speakers from rattling against the wall. When used with a subwoofer that has an adjustable crossover setting, the dip around 200k is minimal. I use a 200hz or 100hz filter if it is to be used more for full range. I don't really want to go the amplifier route as the goal is to keep costs to a minimum as we should be able to sell these for as little as $60-$100.00 each depending on artwork used. We can also make them in a stretched canvas version without frame fore even less. I am still waiting for a response from Tectonic as to any legal issues.

jmanes

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #2819 on: 23 May 2016, 08:26 pm »
The Iphone app may not be the most accurate, but you can see that the bass dip around 150hz between the DMLs and the subwoofer is fairly minimal.