AudioCircle

Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: john925 on 9 Jun 2017, 06:17 pm

Title: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 9 Jun 2017, 06:17 pm
hello,

I'm trying to look for an upgrade on my power cords for the Reference20.  I'm wondering what you are using for Nuprime amplifiers that fit very well. 

John
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: witchdoctor on 9 Jun 2017, 06:53 pm
I recommend posting this question in the Triode Wire Labs Circle and the Zen Wave Circles too.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: JackD on 9 Jun 2017, 07:43 pm
John

You need to give a price range with a limit otherwise the suggestions will be all over the map including the usual "use the black one that came in the box" crowd.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: in1unison on 9 Jun 2017, 07:58 pm
@ John

Thera are so many dealers/distributors, assuming you are from US or Europe, that will let you audition cables at home. See what suits your pocket and if any make any appreciable difference to sound for you.

I see this thread going into memory black hole soon  :wink:
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: JackD on 9 Jun 2017, 11:30 pm
No reason for it to go into the black hole as long as actual owners past or present reply and we know what price range he considers an upgrade.  No reason to recommend a $600 TWL cord if he is thinking upgrade is $100.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 10 Jun 2017, 09:41 am
I recommend posting this question in the Triode Wire Labs Circle and the Zen Wave Circles too.

Ok, thanks.  I'll take a look at their website.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 10 Jun 2017, 11:16 am
John

You need to give a price range with a limit otherwise the suggestions will be all over the map including the usual "use the black one that came in the box" crowd.

The reason why I didn't list a price range is the price may differ from where they are sold.  For example, I can get IeGo cables cheaper here locally in Taiwan, but i believe it will sell more expensive overseas.  The second reason is I won't mind buying second hand.  So price might not be a good index.  From my pervious survey, lessloss is said to have good result with Class D amplifiers.  And like witchdoctor mentioned, the Triode Wire Labs seems to have a model that works best with Class D amplifiers.  That's why I would like to listen to your experience. 

John
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 10 Jun 2017, 11:18 am
oh, forget to mention.  I'm planning to use 4 power cords, because I'm going to build biamp with 4 Reference 20.  Speaker is Von Schweikert VR-5 MKII, DAC is Totaldac d2-Four.  Yes, not d1-Four but d2-Four. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Speedskater on 10 Jun 2017, 01:11 pm
While far from the only good power cord, this is a very nice one. And well under $100.  Oh, shorter cords are better than longer cords.
(I don't know anything about Ram)

https://www.ramelectronics.net/PC.aspx
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: JackD on 10 Jun 2017, 02:55 pm
John

With my Nuprime pair I have used Signal, Wireworld, Cullen and settled on Neotech.  I use TWL in the main system on the preamp and amp and if the additional cost upfront plus the import tariff don't bother you then that is where I would look. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Samac on 10 Jun 2017, 03:43 pm
JackD,

I'm currently using a WireWorld Status PC on my NuPrime IDA-16. Would you mind posting what you preferred about the  Neotech over the WireWorld PC? Also, which WireWorld PC were you using? I'm considering trying other PCs. TIA

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: JackD on 10 Jun 2017, 06:05 pm
Samac

I found the Wireworld Stratus to be thin sounding on the ST-10 though it was o.k. on the DAC-10.  What caused me to move away though on both pieces was the IEC connector which didn't want to stay put and the difficulty routing due to the unusual shape.  The Neotech just sounds more authoritative  to me.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Randy on 10 Jun 2017, 10:56 pm
These are excellent and a steal at the price.



http://www.riteaudiocables.com/index.html
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Samac on 11 Jun 2017, 12:16 am
Samac

I found the Wireworld Stratus to be thin sounding on the ST-10 though it was o.k. on the DAC-10.  What caused me to move away though on both pieces was the IEC connector which didn't want to stay put and the difficulty routing due to the unusual shape.  The Neotech just sounds more authoritative  to me.

Thanks for the reply, JackD, it is helpful. The one thing I didn't want to hear was that you thought the Stratus was thin sounding but I'm not totally shocked and was prepared for it. Looks like I'll be going on a PC journey. I'll put NeoTech on the list.

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: JackD on 11 Jun 2017, 12:33 am
Scott

Might want to consider one of the TWL cords for sale in the Trading Post.  I am using them on the amp, preamp and conditioner and Neotech on the rest in the Main system.  In the system with the Nuprime gear I am using a Neotech on the ST-10 and Cullen Cable on the rest of the gear.  The Cullen's are good cables at fair prices and Patrick is a really good guy.  From all reports Dave at Zenwave makes good stuff too just never tried any.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 12 Jun 2017, 06:56 am
Thanks for all the advice. I'll try to contact Triode Wire Labs to see what suggestion is offered. 

In Taiwan, Neotech is quite easy to be available.  So, I may have change to test, too.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 2 Jul 2017, 10:44 pm
hello,

I'm trying to look for an upgrade on my power cords for the Reference20.  I'm wondering what you are using for Nuprime amplifiers that fit very well. 

John

My experience with Nuprime and a Furman power conditioner that reads amperage usage, made the Furman technical helper to think I had a defective one.   For my amp and preamp were hardly drawing power.

For that reason... The type of highly efficient amplification used by NuPrime leads me to believe you will not need the big hefty cords used for high current analog type amplifiers.   I own a NuPrime ST-10 and use the following power cord with excellent results.

Here is what I am using.   

Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable.   http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14S2 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14S2)

I learned from a power cord designer  (and audio designer)  that shorter cords will not sound as good as cords at least 6 feet (2 meters) long. 

He explained something to me about how the power cord's copper acts like an electron reservoir....  Be that true, or not?  The six footers do sound excellent with any equipment I have used so far.  You can spend much, much more if you like.  The man who designs the Pangea power cords has also designed some cords for other companies that sell for much more...

UPDATE:
   That was then.  I just auditioned a Triode Wire Labs American Digital power cable....  It put the Pangea in the dust.  Expensive compared to the Pangea, but less expensive when compared with the power cords it directly competes with.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: rustydoglim on 6 Jul 2017, 07:16 pm
Quote
He explained something to me about how the power cord's copper acts like an electron reservoir.
Please, this is so full of shit.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Armaegis on 6 Jul 2017, 08:50 pm
Electrons do not work that way. I say this not a power cord designer or audio designer, but as a guy who has several degrees in metallurgy and nearly twenty years of lab experience working with metals and electron analysis methods.

If the power cord is somehow acting as a reservoir, then it is behaving like a capacitor and that is not something you want on that side of the power supply.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: mresseguie on 6 Jul 2017, 09:20 pm
Thanks for all the advice. I'll try to contact Triode Wire Labs to see what suggestion is offered. 

In Taiwan, Neotech is quite easy to be available.  So, I may have change to test, too.

Hi, John.

If you're not in a hurry to try new PCs, I will be back in Taiwan by November. I have 2 TWL power cords - a digital American and a 10+. My wife and I have a place in Taoyuan City. You're welcome to try either of the power cords. I've also got a PC from the guy who made my preamp that might interest you. It cost just $109 USD, though I took it to Taiwan in my luggage.

Alternatively, there's a great audio DIY shop in Taipei called THLaudio.com. It's located between Fuxing and Jianguo Roads fairly close to Shimin Da Dao. Ah-Chuan Tsai is very knowledgeable about audio. I'm certain he could set you up with great DIY PCs or they could add connectors for a small fee. Tell him Michael sent you in. Oh, wait. Do you speak Mandarin? Ah-Chuan's English is not the best, but he's very enthusiastic about audio (and scotch).

Where on the island are you located?

Michael
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 6 Jul 2017, 11:41 pm
Please, this is so full of shit.

If that's exactly what he told me?   Probably right. 

But,  this much I can recall.  He did say this.   Electrons do not move lightning fast like many assume.  I had to learn that lesson the hard way in the DIY forum. I was jumped on when I spoke about electrons moving rapidly down the wires. At that time I was promptly given documentation showing that is not the case.  Here is what I just found online about the matter.

https://www.uu.edu/dept/physics/scienceguys/2001Nov.cfm (https://www.uu.edu/dept/physics/scienceguys/2001Nov.cfm) 

Well?  ..  The designer of his own power cord was telling me something based upon that understanding about slow moving electrons.  I coined the phrase "reservoir." He spoke about having so many feet of quality wire to keep the electrons in a manner that will make the equipment ultimately sound better.   One can not deny that a good audiophile power cord (in a transparent system)  will improve in how it sounds after the cable is burned in.   

His take was based upon the slow moving electrons.  And, no.  He was not in the DIY forum when this was explained to me. He spoke to me months later over the phone. 

And,  he was not trying to sell me his cord.  He told me... "whatever cord you get, make sure its at least 6 feet long."

Here is one company shares the same notion about cable length...

(http://www.wireworldcable.com/images/effpath_power.jpg?crc=139366429)
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Armaegis on 7 Jul 2017, 12:02 am
You can do all sorts of wizardry with shielding and geometry and configurations to affect a cable's LCR values, but concerning the flow of electrons in the material itself... the only way you can control that is from the outright manufacturing of the original bulk wire. I am positive there are zero boutique cable makers who have that kind of clout and expertise that they can custom order the megaspools of specially produced wire. Even if they could, the differences would be so marginal as to be nonexistent.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 7 Jul 2017, 01:11 am
You can do all sorts of wizardry with shielding and geometry and configurations to affect a cable's LCR values, but concerning the flow of electrons in the material itself... the only way you can control that is from the outright manufacturing of the original bulk wire. I am positive there are zero boutique cable makers who have that kind of clout and expertise that they can custom order the megaspools of specially produced wire. Even if they could, the differences would be so marginal as to be nonexistent.


Pangea does.   Cardas copper and with litz in configuration.  Shielded.....    The designer (from what I read online) has designed power cords for other companies as well.  I believe he started out designing for medical equipment.

All I know,  it sounds very good with everything I tried.   I am also sure there are other cords that also sound good.  Its the reasonable pricing of Pangea is what locked my radar on to them.  I could never afford those 500- 1000 $ cords. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: G Georgopoulos on 7 Jul 2017, 02:45 am
If that's exactly what he told me?   Probably right. 

But,  this much I can recall.  He did say this.   Electrons do not move lightning fast like many assume.  I had to learn that lesson the hard way in the DIY forum. I was jumped on when I spoke about electrons moving rapidly down the wires. At that time I was promptly given documentation showing that is not the case.  Here is what I just found online about the matter.

https://www.uu.edu/dept/physics/scienceguys/2001Nov.cfm (https://www.uu.edu/dept/physics/scienceguys/2001Nov.cfm) 



mate, frequency proves electrons have astonishing speed, 1 GHZ is 1.000.000.000 hz per second,the period is P=1/F the speed of electrons in the period of that frequency is velocity = wavelength x frequency.

cheERS
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Armaegis on 7 Jul 2017, 07:39 am
Pangea does not run a manufacturing plant. They just order the wire.
I really doubt Cardas owns his own plant either, but he orders large quantities from one place that produces to his specifications (which are really not much different than other higher grade wire available elsewhere; his wording is just different).
Litz is... a very nice buzzword that is often misused and furthermore has no bearing on power cords.
Requiring a minimum length for a cable is absurd, but it sure is nice for selling purposes.

Sigh, I really don't want to get into this cable debate.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Letitroll98 on 7 Jul 2017, 10:00 am
You can do all sorts of wizardry with shielding and geometry and configurations to affect a cable's LCR values, but concerning the flow of electrons in the material itself... the only way you can control that is from the outright manufacturing of the original bulk wire. I am positive there are zero boutique cable makers who have that kind of clout and expertise that they can custom order the megaspools of specially produced wire. Even if they could, the differences would be so marginal as to be nonexistent.

One is Dave113 from Zen Wave Audio here on AC who orders custom metallurgy and geometry from a manufacturer with no problems.  From memory I believe he sources through Mundorf, but don't quote me on that.  You are correct in that I remember he said there was a rather large minimum order.  BTW, they are a major wire manufacturer that believes cables sound different. 

I'm not sure how you would control electron flow in the manufacturing process other than gauge and material, but electron flow (or rather electron migration) is not electricity.  Electrons migrate relatively slowly through a cable carrying current, electricity is a wave function, two very different things.

Whether a PC makes a difference in the sound of your system is the cable debate that neither of us wants to enter into.  Happy listening.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 7 Jul 2017, 04:01 pm
mate, frequency proves electrons have astonishing speed, 1 GHZ is 1.000.000.000 hz per second,the period is P=1/F the speed of electrons in the period of that frequency is velocity = wavelength x frequency.

cheERS

Would you like me to take the time to find the thread where this was discussed by builders in the DIY forum?   And,,  maybe you would like to write a letter to that university I linked to that said essentially the same thing?

I am not here to argue with you.  Your argument is with those who make the claim that I am only repeating. In that DIY thread (if you want me to take the time to find it it) one person presented a scholarly piece by an engineer.   If you want me to?  You may find it helpful. 

For my reasoning when I came into the  DIY discussion was much like yours.  I was dumbfounded at first when they told me I was wrong. Then, then months later a friend who is quite brilliant,  who designs?  He told me essentially the same thing about electrons.  Who am I to argue with in that case?  Apparently, there is something else going on  that makes electricity with all it parts work so quickly.

In the mean time... audio cords and interconnects.... and fuses... all effect what we hear coming from our speakers.   Experts can not explain even why burning in equipment changes the sound. But, they know it does in many cases.  So?  Who am I to argue?

Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: PHamm on 7 Jul 2017, 08:23 pm

Another brand of power cables that might be considered here is KLEI. I don't know about Ref 20s, but I have had good luck with KLEI power cables and my IDA-16. I started with the gPower 2 model. This seems to me a very good cable. Music just sounds good with this cable. More recently, I upgraded the power on my IDA-16 to the gPower 3 model. This seemed to add more bass to the music (in a good way). I have not tried the current top-of-the-line KLEI power cable (Purity 8), which is considerably more expensive than the gPower models. There are some rave reviews for this cable on the KLEI website. The best and fullest review is by a retailer of KLEI and NuPrime products, who describes using it on an IDA-16. Perhaps it might be worth checking out? Anyway, it's just a thought.

Paul

 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 8 Jul 2017, 12:11 am
Hi, John.

If you're not in a hurry to try new PCs, I will be back in Taiwan by November. I have 2 TWL power cords - a digital American and a 10+. My wife and I have a place in Taoyuan City. You're welcome to try either of the power cords. I've also got a PC from the guy who made my preamp that might interest you. It cost just $109 USD, though I took it to Taiwan in my luggage.

Alternatively, there's a great audio DIY shop in Taipei called THLaudio.com. It's located between Fuxing and Jianguo Roads fairly close to Shimin Da Dao. Ah-Chuan Tsai is very knowledgeable about audio. I'm certain he could set you up with great DIY PCs or they could add connectors for a small fee. Tell him Michael sent you in. Oh, wait. Do you speak Mandarin? Ah-Chuan's English is not the best, but he's very enthusiastic about audio (and scotch).

Where on the island are you located?

Michael

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the input. I live in Chaiyi county, in southern part of Taiwan.  It's a 3-hour-drive to Taoyuan.  I am not in a hurry to try power cords due to some family priorities recently.  I know Mr.Tsai of THLaudio.com.  I used to buy Soundcare spikes from him, a very nice person to talk to.  Thanks for mentioning the good news of TWL cords.  I'll try to see if I can spare some time to visit you.  It's still a couple of months before November, so we may talk about this later. 

John

Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 9 Jul 2017, 05:21 pm
I'm not sure how you would control electron flow in the manufacturing process other than gauge and material, but electron flow (or rather electron migration) is not electricity.  Electrons migrate relatively slowly through a cable carrying current, electricity is a wave function, two very different things.

Thank you for that.   

Its the very thing one power cord designer was telling me about.  He believed longer cords sound better for that reason. 

He recommended at least six feet (2 meters)... I am not adept at the vocabulary needed ... But,  he told me (to the effect) that slow moving electrons become stored (when on 24/7) and the longer power cords will simply sound better because they contain a built reserve on tap. 

He may only have an unproven theory as to why.  But,  the longer cables I have heard do sound better than anything they replaced.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 6 Oct 2017, 11:12 am
https://www.facebook.com/Xfuncat/posts/1701818353219487

It brings something new to my system, with the totaldac d2-Four and Four NuPrime REF20.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Speedskater on 6 Oct 2017, 12:49 pm
..............................................................
I learned from a power cord designer  (and audio designer)  that shorter cords will not sound as good as cords at least 6 feet (2 meters) long. 
....................................... ....................
I learned from an AC power expert Ralph Morrison, that the shorter the AC power cord the better.  At least at the theoretical level. It's highly unlikley that you could hear or measure small differences.

By the way, the speed of electricity and the speed of electron flow are two vary different things.

Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Speedskater on 6 Oct 2017, 12:53 pm
Boy, the Fluxfield  people sure do take a lot of engineering out of context. Like triboelectric noise on a power cord, nope. And longer cords are better than shorter cords, nope.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 6 Oct 2017, 04:10 pm
Boy, the Fluxfield  people sure do take a lot of engineering out of context. Like triboelectric noise on a power cord, nope. And longer cords are better than shorter cords, nope.

Why not try helping us out here with what to do,  rather than what not to do?  You seem to be well informed.  You should should be giving us tips and tweaks instead of just nay-saying all the time.   Anyone can make unsubstantiated contradictions...  Why not tell us what actually helps and improves? 

With audio the only thing I have to go by is my ears.  And, you know how much they can not be trusted. I would rather have a computer readout of which coffee tastes better than trust my tongue.  Man!... you can really help if you would only turn around your approach in presentation.   Give rather than take.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Speedskater on 6 Oct 2017, 06:37 pm
Well something like this would be nice:
https://www.ramelectronics.net/PC.aspx

Belden makes good cords and Marineco makes good connectors. But it's probable more than is needed in most cases.

* * * * * * * * * *
Don't expect it to sound any different than many other good cords.

* * * * * * * * * *
When power cords start sounding different, then something is wrong. Ether in your set-up or in the cord.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 6 Oct 2017, 06:45 pm
Well something like this would be nice:
https://www.ramelectronics.net/PC.aspx

Belden makes good cords and Marineco makes good connectors. But it's probable more than is needed in most cases.

* * * * * * * * * *
Don't expect it to sound any different than many other good cords.

* * * * * * * * * *
When power cords start sounding different, then something is wrong. Ether in your set-up or in the cord.

Looks like a good cord.   Some good ones sell for even less... But?  This is never asked.   May I ask what you listen with that you can not hear differences? 

Here is something to consider....    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/its-done-power-cord-shoot-out-22-power-cords-reviewed.219202/ (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/its-done-power-cord-shoot-out-22-power-cords-reviewed.219202/)
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Speedskater on 6 Oct 2017, 08:58 pm
Looks like a good cord.   Some good ones sell for even less... But?  This is never asked.   May I ask what you listen with that you can not hear differences?  ................................
Why i listen with well designed equipment, that doesn't have power cord problems.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 6 Oct 2017, 09:17 pm
Sometimes the cheaper cord does more than you expect and beats the uber-priced ones.

In the end, it's....wire that conducts electrons.

More important is the power supply inside the gear.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 6 Oct 2017, 10:42 pm
Why i listen with well designed equipment, that doesn't have power cord problems.

I suppose your well designed equipment does not have any "fuse problems" either....

Here is a good power cord for even less than you showed...     http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14)

I listen with NuForce and Nuprime equipment.  My speakers allow for me to hear differences between certain power cords and fuses. 
I wonder why I can hear it, and many others with "good equipment" also can discern differences.  And,  I do not use any $500.00 power cords.

 :scratch: ....   its just one of those things.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 6 Oct 2017, 10:44 pm
Sometimes the cheaper cord does more than you expect and beats the uber-priced ones.

In the end, it's....wire that conducts electrons.

More important is the power supply inside the gear.

Pangea does that.  They produce the equivalent of shielded power cords that would have been marketed for a lot more money by another company.  And, its quality stuff.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: rustydoglim on 8 Oct 2017, 05:19 pm
Ok, regardless of the power cord, electricity goes into the power supply. I don't want to get into this debate about electrons on power cord.

But this is what's happening inside the amp - the amp board gets its clean (keeping AC low noise is important, but decent power strip filter will do the job) DC power from the capacitor board, which in turn gets DC power from the power supply, and the switching power supply does a whole bunch of stuff to your AC (chopping it up into pulses is one thing) - so still think that the movement of electrons on the power cord matters ? Hell no. This is like pumping gas into your car. How fast the fuel pump works have nothing to do with your car's performance.
Furthermore, there is an array of capacitors for the amp board.  That's your big reservoir of DC current.
And through our R&D, we found out that an array of capacitors in different sizes and polarity arrangement makes a difference in how fast the current gets discharged to supply the amp.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 8 Oct 2017, 06:15 pm
Jason...

I think because my power cords are triple shielded (avoiding noise) may be the real reason....   Good ones do not have to cost 500.00. 

I just tried two different brand power cords running to my ST10.  Both sounded good.  One gave a clearer upper range sound.
The other cord was not yet burned in. Could it be they effect what we hear?


Reasonably priced Pangea power cords are what I have chosen and have been happy with.  Factory direct makes the prices come down... 
Pangea is Audio Advisors own brand... http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=25 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=25)




Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 9 Oct 2017, 01:09 am
Michael Fremer (contributing editor of Stereophile Magazine) was giving a tour of his testing facility.  I cut to the section where he began to speak about
what power cords can produce...


https://youtu.be/H07NpWk_Xf8?t=14m51s (https://youtu.be/H07NpWk_Xf8?t=14m51s)
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: rustydoglim on 9 Oct 2017, 10:44 am
We are an engineering company.  Sure, I never say that you won't hear any difference with an expensive power cord, but the effect is not what we can "understand" and we are not in the business of making "subjective" hearing test.  What I objected is the unscientific theory people put out.  Usually this is the case since nobody can explain the difference in hearing, they made up some theory. 
I suspect it is due to better shielding on expensive cord. Perhaps we can try to wrap a copper foil on the standard power cord and let one of you guys evaluate.

By the way, his video also mentioned about vinyl and CD. Some people swear that vinyl will always sound better than digital music, and there is no such thing. Mark Waldrep from AIX is an expert recording engineer and he gave a very good explanation. It all depends on how it was recorded.  Basically we need to compare apple to apple. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 9 Oct 2017, 05:12 pm
I have a theory as well.   Sure they have to try to come up with an explanation as to why it sounds better.  Better to say they do not yet know why it does.  But that when certain things are followed the better results can be demonstrated and repeated.

I believe also there may be an issue with the use of solid core wire or combination with litz wire is at work, as well.  Stranded wires that are in close proximity develop a type of noise to the sound as the current is passed through.   Litz wire, or solid core, eliminate this "undefined" noise. 

Records are mixed differently than digital.  Records have to limit the dynamic range to prevent the stylus from jumping out of the groove for one. And, usually the bass gets mixed in mono to keep the tracking under control.   And,  from what I understand,  the closer to the center of the record the mix has to be altered to accommodate what takes place with the cartridge interaction. 

Records always do something to the sound and its often times a pleasant form of alteration on the better records made.   Digital when recorded well can leave the performance bare and naked... On a good system, digital offers the most realism possible.  I am a musician.  Having heard actual live performances up close allows me to know that what digital causes to come out of the speakers is much closer to what I used to hear when playing live.   Playing with a rubber surround holding the stylus in place automatically alters and modifies the actual sound of what was recorded. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: RafaPolit on 10 Oct 2017, 04:57 pm
We are an engineering company.  Sure, I never say that you won't hear any difference with an expensive power cord, but the effect is not what we can "understand" and we are not in the business of making "subjective" hearing test.  What I objected is the unscientific theory people put out.  Usually this is the case since nobody can explain the difference in hearing, they made up some theory. 
I suspect it is due to better shielding on expensive cord. Perhaps we can try to wrap a copper foil on the standard power cord and let one of you guys evaluate.

By the way, his video also mentioned about vinyl and CD. Some people swear that vinyl will always sound better than digital music, and there is no such thing. Mark Waldrep from AIX is an expert recording engineer and he gave a very good explanation. It all depends on how it was recorded.  Basically we need to compare apple to apple.

And this, on top of great sounding equipment, is why I stick to NuPrime: no bullsh*t technical nonsense, but true scientific approach to selling your products!

Thanks for chiming in here, I'm getting tired of all this Voodoo claiming to change the flow of electrons to produce better sound!  WTF! :(

Thanks Jason!
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 10 Oct 2017, 05:03 pm
And this, on top of great sounding equipment, is why I stick to NuPrime: no bullsh*t technical nonsense, but true scientific approach to selling your products!

Thanks for chiming in here, I'm getting tired of all this Voodoo claiming to change the flow of electrons to produce better sound!  WTF! :(

Thanks Jason!

Forget the scientific explanations for a moment...     

What if?  You simply get better sound and can not explain why?   Not having the scientific reason will invalidate the improvement?

Is that what you wanted to express?
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: RafaPolit on 10 Oct 2017, 05:21 pm
What I want to express is that if  the company that makes them has no scientific reason, then the result is a fluke and they cannot guarantee nor claim the improvements they are selling.  If somethings improves sound, a manufacturing company either finds a scientific solution and approach to it, or its not really repeatable.

What I want to express is that a lot of companies are willing to charge you $1000 for a foot of cable claiming all sorts of wonders.  And I know how most minds think: since you already spent that money, you would feel foolish to admit to spending all that money and not having any improvement.  So, you start thinking to yourself: wait, maybe it is improving, I think I can hear more brights, tighter bass, etc.

What I want to express is that you really can't, but your mind will trick you into thinking that you do to justify that you just spent the value of a car for two meters of cable.

That's what I want to express and have done so since we started these discussions.

What I want to express is that if you are happy with that, good for you.  But I'm not spending my money until I get some real scientific logic behind it.

Lets use the car analogy more: if I tell you to come to my gas station, pay 10x the value of gas for MY gas, which has untold unproven improvements that will make your car run smoother and prolong the life of your motor.  I cannot explain why, nor can I prove it, but please, just believe me, and, of course, pay me 10x the value.  Would you do it?  If you do, let me know where you live, I may actually change my profession. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 10 Oct 2017, 05:50 pm
There is a point of no return.. How can a thousand dollar cable make your two hundred dollar amp sound better than it should?  Its nonsense after a certain level of improvement is reached.  What we need are competent cables.  Not "effects" cables.  I found that Audio Advisor's Pangea line makes a very honest, high quality power cable for a fraction the others are asking.

Problem is this.   There are millionaires out there who want to fancy themselves as having the best in the world.  They think this life is all there is to be and want it all now. So?  Some manufacturers will cater to this exclusive crowd.  A crowd that many times want to feel they can make the common man envious of them.  For them , they get the twenty thousand dollar cables (that no one else ever gets to hear.) Obviously, the manufacturer only sells a limited number.  But, with such a huge profit margin, some can chalk it up as a good second income while they keep a real job somewhere else.

There is an ENVY market out there!  For example... in the 80's?  When CD players first came out they mostly sounded like crap.  But?   Some found some ways to improve what was being offered. Fine.  But others began creating units and charging three thousand dollars for the ENVY crown so they could claim having the best in the world. Yet?  It was crap sounding by today's standards of excellent DAC's will produce at a fraction of what they paid. 

Price serves a purpose.  Sometimes those who wish to be the envy of the world are willing to pay a ENVY tax, and pay much more than everyone else for something that will become obsolete in a few years only to be replaced by something at a fraction of the cost that sounds better. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: rustydoglim on 10 Oct 2017, 07:13 pm
I will use the following actual customers example to illustrate that it is very important to avoid "Buyer Remorse"

Case 1: Years ago, it was discovered that Lexicon put a case over the exact OPPO device, with a change in power supply, and then mark up something like 10X the cost. A customer who bought that also owns NuForce amp and commented that he is ok paying for it because he likes the brand. Ok, if you have the money and you think that the small improvement is worth 10X, that's ok. Lots of people pay more than $10,000 for the Apple Watch 1, gee, what do you do with it ?

Case 2: Just few months ago, a DAC-10H customer wrote to me saying that his dealer talked him into buying a $2000 speaker cable and he can't tell the difference.

My point is telling the truth is important. And then let people decide.  We always tell people that the performance of Ref 20 is incremental over ST-10, but that X% is enough to justify 2 to 3X the price.
BTW, it is a known scientific fact that litz wire carries high frequency better due to transmission principles. You can buy industrial litz transmission cables for cheap.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Armaegis on 10 Oct 2017, 11:39 pm
If I had enough loose money lying around that I could drop $2k on a power cord and not blink if it didn't produce a change, yeah sure whatever.

If $2k were doable with a bit of saving and my system costs $4k in total... you know what, two grand buys quite a few concerts and a nice evening out on the town for the whole year.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 10 Oct 2017, 11:55 pm

BTW, it is a known scientific fact that litz wire carries high frequency better due to transmission principles. You can buy industrial litz transmission cables for cheap.

Where can you find it?  I could only find wire manufacturers who would sell in bulk minimums of great amounts when all I needed was about forty feet. 

Litz wire is more about than just about the high frequencies. Its ability to preserve the leading edge and time arrival seems also to be a plus.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: rustydoglim on 13 Oct 2017, 10:35 pm
There are suppliers on alibaba.com that sell in a spool that is cheap enough to give it a try:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Pure-Silver-9999-Stranded-Litz-Wire_60529490981.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.226.6d3da21uZnXLo (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Pure-Silver-9999-Stranded-Litz-Wire_60529490981.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.226.6d3da21uZnXLo)
I didn't look close enough whether it is a good fit.  Seems pretty good, someone could make a speaker cable with nice connector and mark up 1000%.  $0.09 per meter, minimum order 610 meters (a lot more than your 40 feet, but hey, it is very cheap to get the whole spool)
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Armaegis on 14 Oct 2017, 01:57 am
There are suppliers on alibaba.com that sell in a spool that is cheap enough to give it a try:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Pure-Silver-9999-Stranded-Litz-Wire_60529490981.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.226.6d3da21uZnXLo (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Pure-Silver-9999-Stranded-Litz-Wire_60529490981.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.226.6d3da21uZnXLo)
I didn't look close enough whether it is a good fit.  Seems pretty good, someone could make a speaker cable with nice connector and mark up 1000%.  $0.09 per meter, minimum order 610 meters (a lot more than your 40 feet, but hey, it is very cheap to get the whole spool)


Is that actually per meter? because I think that makes it cheaper than raw silver...

In any event, starting at 26awg you'll need at least 16 wires to bring down to 14awg if you're making speaker cables.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 14 Oct 2017, 03:51 am
Is that actually per meter? because I think that makes it cheaper than raw silver...

In any event, starting at 26awg you'll need at least 16 wires to bring down to 14awg if you're making speaker cables.

Copper litz sounds fantastic in the right system.  Not sure what silver would cause. What I have been listening with for my speakers is the equivalent of somewhere around 12-10awg.   The 26awg may be good for rewiring tweeters to the crossover.  I appreciate knowing its industrial litz I should be looking for.   Just having the thin silk serve wrap causes the least coloration.  Litz's sound can be manipulated by its wrap.  Its why the "Ground Control" pigtails are made from both litz and bits of shrink wrap.   Leave the Litz naked except for a few pieces of small shrink wrap to hold the hot and return together to keep the cables organized per speaker.  It will look ugly,  but surprisingly neutral sounding.  Headphone cable maker Q-Audio covers its cables with silk.  No plastic wraps.  I had one set of Litz speakers cables covered in a rubberized covering and it dulled the sound. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: kaka89 on 15 Oct 2017, 01:53 am
I used to believe cable won't make much difference, but I recently upgraded my speaker cable from $20 (cheapest I can find in Hong Kong) to $40/pair (a pre-made HIFI cable from Taiwan), and I can hear a huge difference between two. I am sure the difference is measurable.

The old cheap cable is a lot louder in HF but missing mid range, it felt like the tweeter was doing all the work. The new cable is a lot more balance than the old one. When I hook up both cable to my left and right speaker to compare them at the same time, the old cable is much louder in HF and I even doubted my new cable wasn't making any sound!

Sciences tell us cable cannot make difference to a certain range of frequency because it is a passive device. From this experience, it tells me it is not true. Manufacture can make a cable that sounds different. Of course, I was comparing a very poor cable to a solid cable, I am not sure the difference would be that much on cable that cost > $500.

https://imgur.com/a/DxjOf

(https://i.imgur.com/Iek5wbK.jpg)

I am using Nuprime DAC-9/STA-9 with Focal 926. I once thought the brightness was coming from the gears because both brands are known to be "bright". It troubles me for a while until I tried this new cable, I am finally satisfy with the combo now :D
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 15 Oct 2017, 03:35 am
I noticed they were smart and marked the speaker cable for direction.  Once it burns in it will become directional.  I have accidentally reversed direction of my speaker cables and heard an immediate difference.  If your system is transparent enough you will notice these sort of things.

I am assuming that your new cable is solid core?  From what I can see from their web page, its copper core with silver plating.  (thank God for Google Translate!)   Wink2
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: kaka89 on 15 Oct 2017, 05:46 am
I noticed they were smart and marked the speaker cable for direction.  Once it burns in it will become directional.  I have accidentally reversed direction of my speaker cables and heard an immediate difference.  If your system is transparent enough you will notice these sort of things.

I am assuming that your new cable is solid core?  From what I can see from their web page, its copper core with silver plating.  (thank God for Google Translate!)   Wink2

My cable is SP-550 (http://www.mps96.com.cn/prod_view.aspx?TypeId=108&Id=336&FId=t3:108:3)
It is copper core, no silver plating because it is their cheapest cable. I choose the cheapest model because I wasn't expecting cable can bring much difference to my system. I was wrong.

Most of their copper cable do have silver plating, starting around USD $100. Maybe I will try them someday.

Nuprime's pricing is very reasonable compared to these cables... :)
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 15 Oct 2017, 06:42 am
My speaker cables are not silver plated and sound just fine.   I just thought yours might have the silver.  Copper is supposed to sound warmer.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: slash71 on 15 Oct 2017, 03:42 pm
I used to believe cable won't make much difference, but I recently upgraded my speaker cable from $20 (cheapest I can find in Hong Kong) to $40/pair (a pre-made HIFI cable from Taiwan), and I can hear a huge difference between two. I am sure the difference is measurable.

The old cheap cable is a lot louder in HF but missing mid range, it felt like the tweeter was doing all the work. The new cable is a lot more balance than the old one. When I hook up both cable to my left and right speaker to compare them at the same time, the old cable is much louder in HF and I even doubted my new cable wasn't making any sound!

Sciences tell us cable cannot make difference to a certain range of frequency because it is a passive device. From this experience, it tells me it is not true. Manufacture can make a cable that sounds different. Of course, I was comparing a very poor cable to a solid cable, I am not sure the difference would be that much on cable that cost > $500.

https://imgur.com/a/DxjOf

(https://i.imgur.com/Iek5wbK.jpg)

I am using Nuprime DAC-9/STA-9 with Focal 926. I once thought the brightness was coming from the gears because both brands are known to be "bright". It troubles me for a while until I tried this new cable, I am finally satisfy with the combo now :D

Hi all,

same as @kaka89 I recently roolout my previous  speaker cables with these ones:

(http://www.ricable.com/images/thumbnails/1003/639/detailed/1/11235_1.jpg)

I like the combination of DAC-10 + ST-10 combo, it plays very well (I love it) before the change but, with new wiring, I perceive a "beautiful" difference in sounds, instruments and voices that match and give more space and are more in tune overall.
bass are stump!   :) nice work ..

@RafaPolit :  no scientific reason to hear this.. don't worry ..
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Samac on 1 Nov 2017, 12:54 am
Scott

Might want to consider one of the TWL cords for sale in the Trading Post.  I am using them on the amp, preamp and conditioner and Neotech on the rest in the Main system.  In the system with the Nuprime gear I am using a Neotech on the ST-10 and Cullen Cable on the rest of the gear.  The Cullen's are good cables at fair prices and Patrick is a really good guy.  From all reports Dave at Zenwave makes good stuff too just never tried any.

Hey JackD,

Based on Patrcik's suggestion I've got a Cullen Avius PC with red copper plugs coming Friday. Thanks for the recommendation. I'm looking forward to trying it. About six weeks ago I replaced my WireWorld Stratus 7 with a Volex PC that I've had for years. If I recall it is said to be made with Belden wire.

Anyway, I've been pleasantly surprised at how well the Volex performs in my system. It has improved the tone and is more relaxed and easier to listen to with an improved soundstage. I'm hoping the Cullen cord will continue to enhance the improvements that the Volex PC has made.

I'll let it settle-in for a couple of weeks and post my impressions. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: JackD on 1 Nov 2017, 01:48 am
Scott

Glad Patrick was able to set you up. 
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: john925 on 1 Nov 2017, 06:33 am
I got some new cables from IeGO.  They are the newer version of my current C3.5.  I'll reply the result, soon.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Samac on 4 Nov 2017, 12:13 am
I got some new cables from IeGO.  They are the newer version of my current C3.5.  I'll reply the result, soon.

The IeGO cables look great. Look forward to your impressions.

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 4 Nov 2017, 12:35 am
Just a suggestion about power cables....


If its for a switching amp? Get one that is shielded.  Its why certain Nuprime power cords come with a big choke.  Digital equipment needs that sort of thing to work its best.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: rustydoglim on 5 Nov 2017, 10:23 pm
we have some recommendation on power strip in the website FAQ.  A good power strip with noise filter cost less than $100.
Title: Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
Post by: Genez on 5 Nov 2017, 10:55 pm
Thanks Jason..


Here is the link to NuPrime FAQ....


http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/faq/ (http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/faq/)

Look for power strip under... "Power Supply"    ...