AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 29 Sep 2017, 03:55 pm
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Thanks to Mike Lundy for sending me a couple of Flat 5 boxes to use for testing.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/flat5box.jpg)
I set one up last night and used it for testing. It worked out great. This is going to make an excellent center channel. From the bottom of its range to 4kHz it was within about +/-1db. It handles the vocal region really well and was a dead match for the Skinny 6's. :thumb:
I also built a make shift wall above and below it and tested it as an in-wall design. This drops the step loss compensation filter, and raises the sensitivity about 2db. It also still maintained the flat response. So for you guys that are looking for something to build into a wall, this might be what you are looking for.
These will have decent power handling, but not high power handling. They are not for high SPL applications. They are for clarity and a very natural and accurate sound. Also really good for small rooms, bed rooms, or rooms with little to no acoustic room treatment as the little 3" driver has a more controlled off axis response, and is not at all bright or hot in the top end.
Also, vertical and horizontal off axis responses look great. They will give a consistent sound regardless of seating position.
The complete kit includes all drivers, crossover parts, tube connectors, wire, solder, screws, heat shrink, and ports. Only $279 per speaker.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/completed%20flat%205.jpg)
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Cool ,I bet the skinny 6's and flat 5 are going to be a great start to a HT setup in a small/med sized room :thumb:
jay
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Cool ,I bet the skinny 6's and flat 5 are going to be a great start to a HT setup in a small/med sized room :thumb:
jay
People are typically floored by the sound of the Skinny 6's. They image like crazy. It is a really big sound from a small speaker.
I'm going to be using the skinny 6's in my new theater room with the Flat 5 and that is saying a lot. I could put anything in there.
Wife acceptance factor is really high too. :thumb:
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I wondered when this might materialize.
And now no more wondering....
Glad to see it happen Danny and Mike. I may have to build 'em to further my spiral into speaker madness. Is it ready for prime-time Danny, or are you still in process?
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I wondered when this might materialize.
And now no more wondering....
Glad to see it happen Danny and Mike. I may have to build 'em to further my spiral into speaker madness. Is it ready for prime-time Danny, or are you still in process?
I have finalized the design. It's solid.
I'll be building out two units for pictures and stuff. Then I just have to get all the information arranged for the website.
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Time to start gluing again. I cut and milled all the parts for a pair of Skinny 6s and a Flat 5 while building these prototypes.
I'm not sure if I want to pair them with the LGK 1.0 or the A/V-1RS for surround duty. The LGKs would keep the form factor and drivers the same throughout the system but the A/V-1RS is a killer surround speaker.
Mike
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Time to start gluing again. I cut and milled all the parts for a pair of Skinny 6s and a Flat 5 while building these prototypes.
I'm not sure if I want to pair them with the LGK 1.0 or the A/V-1RS for surround duty. The LGKs would keep the form factor and drivers the same throughout the system but the A/V-1RS is a killer surround speaker.
Mike
That's a tough question to answer Mike.
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I'll probably build out a pair of each and see what they sound like.
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Great to see these Danny and glad to see you're finding time to get the designs completed.
I am currently using 2 LGKs for improved sound from a flat screen in my exercise room.
They're doing an amazing job -- and the Flat 5 will take this to new levels!
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I'm not sure if I want to pair them with the LGK 1.0 or the A/V-1RS for surround duty. The LGKs would keep the form factor and drivers the same throughout the system but the A/V-1RS is a killer surround speaker.
I'll probably build out a pair of each and see what they sound like.
Mike - no wrong answers here. I get your point about using the LGK for surrounds... form factor and consistent drivers... and that's probably what I'd do as well. But I'm also using a pair of AV-1RSs and think the world of them also.
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Photo looks deceiving, what are the measurements of the box?
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Photo looks deceiving, what are the measurements of the box?
See drawings: http://gr-research.com/pdf/Flat%205%20drawings.pdf
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Just curious, but wouldn't an actual tweeter in the middle there (the 26 or the neo) give you a response +/- 1dB or so across the range, 94 duBs of sensitivity, 100w or so of power handling, still give you your smooth vocal region and as a sealed unit be fairly easy to build fantastic top end built onto the top of a couple (or I guess you could do just the one per side) servo 12's?
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Just curious, but wouldn't an actual tweeter in the middle there (the 26 or the neo) give you a response +/- 1dB or so across the range, 94 duBs of sensitivity, 100w or so of power handling, still give you your smooth vocal region and as a sealed unit be fairly easy to build fantastic top end built onto the top of a couple (or I guess you could do just the one per side) servo 12's?
It sounds like a good idea to me.
But the LGK drivers are just 8 ohm drivers, so a pair of them will drop impedance's down into the 3 ohm range.
I did an MMTMM version with the Wedges to keep sensitivity high and the impedance at 8 ohms. That worked pretty well.
But the Flat 5 is a low cost design that does work really well though, and the 3" driver minimizes the off axis response that tends to be a problem with untreated rooms. It is just not going to provide high SPL levels. It has it's place.
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I have been working on getting the cabinets coated with Duratex and painted. So I should have some completed pics shortly.
The complete kit for the Flat 5 includes all drivers, crossover parts, tube connectors, wire, solder, screws, heat shrink, and ports. Only $279 per speaker.
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I have a couple of questions.
1) I would be sliding this into a built-in base cabinet instead of some drawers. The opening for the drawers is about 58" wide and 5" tall. My very limited understanding of how speakers works tell me I cannot change the baffle dimensions in a traditional vertical line of drivers, but for this it might be ok? Could I expand the baffle to fill that space without causing problems?
2) On the drawings linked above, some dimensions are wonky. The far right edge of both the "brace placement" and "Front baffle" drawings show the dimension from the outside of the top to the inside of the bottom as 2.25" That seems both an odd dimension to spec and unless I'm misunderstanding, the number seems off. Then on the "brace placement" drawing, across the bottom, the first dimension on the right says 5" I assume that should be a 0.5"?
3) I see the drawings are linked to the GR webpage, but I cannot find the speakers on the page anywhere. If I wanted to order a kit, how should I go about doing that?
Thanks,
Mike
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I have a couple of questions.
1) I would be sliding this into a built-in base cabinet instead of some drawers. The opening for the drawers is about 58" wide and 5" tall. My very limited understanding of how speakers works tell me I cannot change the baffle dimensions in a traditional vertical line of drivers, but for this it might be ok? Could I expand the baffle to fill that space without causing problems?
2) On the drawings linked above, some dimensions are wonky. The far right edge of both the "brace placement" and "Front baffle" drawings show the dimension from the outside of the top to the inside of the bottom as 2.25" That seems both an odd dimension to spec and unless I'm misunderstanding, the number seems off. Then on the "brace placement" drawing, across the bottom, the first dimension on the right says 5" I assume that should be a 0.5"?
3) I see the drawings are linked to the GR webpage, but I cannot find the speakers on the page anywhere. If I wanted to order a kit, how should I go about doing that?
Thanks,
Mike
1. Cabinet is 4 1/2" high overall, so you'd have 1/2" space? Perhaps split between top and bottom with some feet? Likely to be shadow-y in there anyway and you need some clearance to slide it in. Expanding the baffle side to side with some "wings" probably wouldn't hurt anything, but maybe just build something to fill that space. Or CDs. Or gargoyles...your call.
2. Looks like an error, I'd just disregard it and use the dimension on opposite side. The decimal inches are something you get used to and just require a little calculation. I like to have drivers on hand to double check anyway.
3. You'd call Danny. And you get to experience that relaxed Texas drawl, well worth it!
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1) You could add a little air space to each end for the outer woofers and still be okay. I designed them to be a bit on the tight side to conserve space as it is fairly wide. The added space will drop the output just a little on the bottom end but extend it just a little too.
2) Corrections made to the drawings and I will save and re-upload the corrections shortly.
3) Peter is correct. Call us up and order from the Texan and hear a slight drawl.
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I have finished a pair of the flat 5's now.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/completed%20flat%205.jpg)
One is going in the theater room that I am building in my new house flanked by a pair of Skinny 6's.
The other is going in my bedroom just under the flat screen that is mounted on the wall.
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The other is going in my bedroom just under the flat screen that is mounted on the wall.
Looks great Danny! Are you using this as a sound bar for the bedroom setup? Would the Flat 5 design lend itself to being used as a sound bar?
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Is it possible to make a front cover for it?
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Looks great Danny! Are you using this as a sound bar for the bedroom setup? Would the Flat 5 design lend itself to being used as a sound bar?
No, it's just a center channel. My left and right mains for that system will be LGK 1.0's mounted on brackets holding them just off the wall.
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Is it possible to make a front cover for it?
It is possible, but there isn't much room left for a grill frame and a frame really would disrupt the response.
Hmmm, looks or performance.... There is always someone that has to have both.
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I now have the flat 5 and Skinny 6's up and playing in a system.
When my wife first saw the Flat 5, she said, "that's it. That looks good." She typically is prepared for a monster sized speaker. She really liked how well in blended in with everything and was not noticed. And it was a cheap and easy Duratex coated cabinet.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/setup1.jpg)
Oh yeah, and it sounds great. Vocals during TV watching is much cleaner.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/setup2.jpg)
And I am testing these out, not with thousands of dollars worth of gear in a perfectly treated room, but with an inexpensive receiver and in a room with no room treatment.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/setup3.jpg)
These are the first speakers that I have designed specifically for little to no room treatment. The dispersion is controlled and the lower range that typically becomes boomy is left to the subs where there is more flexibility and control.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/setup4.jpg)
And for small speakers these really sound big. They can really fill the room.
Next I'll add some servo subs, a projector, and a large screen. And I might experiment with some room treatment because I can't help myself. I have to know what is ideal.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/projector.jpg)
And I'll have to figure out a way to build an equipment rack and stand for the Flat 5.
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What dimensions did you use for the base of the Skinny 6?
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What dimensions did you use for the base of the Skinny 6?
They were some bases that came off of some freight damaged speakers from many years ago. I Duratex'ed them and painted them the same color as the trim molding in the room. I think they worked out okay. They were really thick and heavy too. :thumb:
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Ordered mine today. Looking forward to it. Next I'll need to upgrade my mains.
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Beauty, looks great Danny :thumb:
Might have to consider a set of these for upstairs here at some point...
jay
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My parts came and look cool. My first question. Since I'm making an over sized baffle, what do I do about the box? I assume the volume needs to be the same. Do the dimensions matter? I can over size the box to match the baffle and make it shallower. I could also just make the box to spec and glue it to the baffle with the edges overhanging. Any reason to do one thing or another?
Thanks,
Mike
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My parts came and look cool. My first question. Since I'm making an over sized baffle, what do I do about the box? I assume the volume needs to be the same. Do the dimensions matter? I can over size the box to match the baffle and make it shallower. I could also just make the box to spec and glue it to the baffle with the edges overhanging. Any reason to do one thing or another?
Thanks,
Mike
Are yours the ones I sent out for the in-wall version?
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We didn't talk about that. Invoice 1711061 They are replacing drawers in a built in cabinet / counter thing. Should we have talked about it?
Currently the center is a cheapo from Amazon. It is way better than 2.0, but isn't super good looking and is a little harsh and abrasive sounding. XLS Encores live on the counter top and get moved to stands for 2.1 music listening. I just want to understand what people are saying in movies and on tv. My wife is growing tired of me going back to check captions. Are modern things mixed with the dialog in the center which is then lost in a zero budget mix-down to 2 channel, or am I just getting old?
Mike
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We didn't talk about that. Invoice 1711061 They are replacing drawers in a built in cabinet / counter thing. Should we have talked about it?
Currently the center is a cheapo from Amazon. It is way better than 2.0, but isn't super good looking and is a little harsh and abrasive sounding. XLS Encores live on the counter top and get moved to stands for 2.1 music listening. I just want to understand what people are saying in movies and on tv. My wife is growing tired of me going back to check captions. Are modern things mixed with the dialog in the center which is then lost in a zero budget mix-down to 2 channel, or am I just getting old?
Mike
I designed a version for in wall mounting with no baffle step loss. So the filters are different. If you have added surfaces above and below then this configuration might work out better for you.
For the base model the small baffle size needs to be used as per the plans.
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Ok. Well, I'll have significant extra baffle below and 2-3 inches above. If you think I should order parts for the other filter, let me know and I'll call you later.
Mike
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Ok. Well, I'll have significant extra baffle below and 2-3 inches above. If you think I should order parts for the other filter, let me know and I'll call you later.
Mike
That is going to make the lower vocal range a little heavy. You might want the filter version for the in-wall mounting. I'll swap them out with you.
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Sounds good. Will you be around early next week?
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Sounds good. Will you be around early next week?
I am around all the time.
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Can you clarify something about the drawing? There seems to be one section in the box that is sealed off from the rest. Do I orient the two brace B's to make that sealed section the front area that includes the center driver?
Thanks,
Mike
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Can you clarify something about the drawing? There seems to be one section in the box that is sealed off from the rest. Do I orient the two brace B's to make that sealed section the front area that includes the center driver?
Thanks,
Mike
Yes, the center driver is in its own sealed air space.
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Internally, are any of the dimensions important, or just the volume? And in general, how tight is the sweet spot? Should I be shooting for +/- 10%? 1% 0.1%
Hopefully I'll have time to get it done tomorrow except for the finish.
Thanks,
Mike
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Internally, are any of the dimensions important, or just the volume? And in general, how tight is the sweet spot? Should I be shooting for +/- 10%? 1% 0.1%
Hopefully I'll have time to get it done tomorrow except for the finish.
Thanks,
Mike
The volume is important and the surface area around the center driver.
The off axis response from the LGK driver is great. You'll have good coverage at any seating position.
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Ah! I meant the sweet spot for volume, not seating. Since I have to modify things a bit to fit the available space and materials, I'm making the cabinet deeper to maintain the volume and I'm wondering how precise I need to be.
And another question -- Since I need to make things a little narrower, do you have any suggestions where to find that space? You said I should protect the area around the center driver. If I make the ports overlap from the baffle to the face frame and extend the box behind, it looks dumb. Can they move to the ends or maybe the bottom (it's open below) instead of the front? Can I crowd the outer drivers together at all? It's not a big problem to tear out two more drawers if that's what I need to do. But I'm at 32" with the face frame, so most of that space will be wasted and I'll need to figure out how to make it attractive.
Thanks,
Mike
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Ah! I meant the sweet spot for volume, not seating. Since I have to modify things a bit to fit the available space and materials, I'm making the cabinet deeper to maintain the volume and I'm wondering how precise I need to be.
And another question -- Since I need to make things a little narrower, do you have any suggestions where to find that space? You said I should protect the area around the center driver. If I make the ports overlap from the baffle to the face frame and extend the box behind, it looks dumb. Can they move to the ends or maybe the bottom (it's open below) instead of the front?
Yes, you can place the ports on the bottom side.
Can I crowd the outer drivers together at all?
The crossover point to them is fairly low, so yes you can.
It's not a big problem to tear out two more drawers if that's what I need to do. But I'm at 32" with the face frame, so most of that space will be wasted and I'll need to figure out how to make it attractive.
No problem.
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I ordered my flat 5 and am building the cabs now out of 1\2 in. MDF. By now I figured out that the 2 holes in the center B dividers go toward the back and the forward chamber for the center driver is supposed to be sealed. I guess I am going to have to drill holes through that chamber somewhere to run the wires to the driver. Where do you recommend and I guess that won't affect the seal or performance?
Also, I noticed in your picture that you put NoRez in your cab. This wasn't mentioned when I ordered the kit (I forgot about it). I noticed you indicated that it wasn't that effective on the Skinny 6's, however, I used them on my NGK build (as recommended) that I just completed for my son. Should I put NORez in my Flat 5? I do have some pieces left over from my previous builds which I could use in part. If I put those pieces in, which chambers would benefit the most?
I haven't cut any of the driver holes yet until I sure about the plans. One modification that I incorporated into this build was to cut stopped dados (18 total using 1/2 in. dado router bit) in the front and back baffles for the ends of the braces to fit into and also the end pieces as well. I cut all the braces and ends 3\8 ins. longer (3\16" for ea. end into 3\16" dados) and did a dry assembly. It fit nicely together. I am anticipating that it will make the glue up and assembly a lot easier to keep together and keep square.
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I ordered my flat 5 and am building the cabs now out of 1\2 in. MDF. By now I figured out that the 2 holes in the center B dividers go toward the back and the forward chamber for the center driver is supposed to be sealed. I guess I am going to have to drill holes through that chamber somewhere to run the wires to the driver. Where do you recommend and I guess that won't affect the seal or performance?
Drill two small holes and feed the wires through. If you pick a drill bit to the size of the wire it makes a nice fit.
Also, I noticed in your picture that you put NoRez in your cab. This wasn't mentioned when I ordered the kit (I forgot about it). I noticed you indicated that it wasn't that effective on the Skinny 6's, however, I used them on my NGK build (as recommended) that I just completed for my son. Should I put NORez in my Flat 5? I do have some pieces left over from my previous builds which I could use in part. If I put those pieces in, which chambers would benefit the most?
These things are braced pretty well and the little woofer just don't excite the cabinet walls too much. No Rez is still effective, but the difference is not as great as with other models.
If I had some to use I'd add it in the outer chambers.
I haven't cut any of the driver holes yet until I sure about the plans. One modification that I incorporated into this build was to cut stopped dados (18 total using 1/2 in. dado router bit) in the front and back baffles for the ends of the braces to fit into and also the end pieces as well. I cut all the braces and ends 3\8 ins. longer (3\16" for ea. end into 3\16" dados) and did a dry assembly. It fit nicely together. I am anticipating that it will make the glue up and assembly a lot easier to keep together and keep square.
Sounds interesting. Post some pics as they go together.
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Thanks Danny. Here are a few pics. It's still early in the build. So far so good. I will cut all the holes next when I get another chance to work on it. Note, I also dado'd the inside brace C to the 2 B's.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172652)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172651)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172720)
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Looking really good!
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Thanks. No glue yet. I really like the way the dry fit just fits together without clamping and squaring up. I'm thinking I could best proceed by gluing up the everything except the top cover until I get the wiring completed and laid out first so I have good access for that part. Does that make sense?
I usually follow others' builds, but don't have that luxury in this Flat 5 build. Can anyone help me out with a photo of the wiring crossover. As previously stated, this is not my strong point. I am more of a woodworker and would prefer not to take a chance on wiring this according to the schematic w/o validation. Thanks in advance for your help. It's always fun and challenging for me in building these GR speakers and I really enjoy it.
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Thanks. No glue yet. I really like the way the dry fit just fits together without clamping and squaring up. I'm thinking I could best proceed by gluing up the everything except the top cover until I get the wiring completed and laid out first so I have good access for that part. Does that make sense?
I usually follow others' builds, but don't have that luxury in this Flat 5 build. Can anyone help me out with a photo of the wiring crossover. As previously stated, this is not my strong point. I am more of a woodworker and would prefer not to take a chance on wiring this according to the schematic w/o validation. Thanks in advance for your help. It's always fun and challenging for me in building these GR speakers and I really enjoy it.
You can do the wiring layout before putting the top on.
I built out two of these but did not take pictures of the crossovers after assembly. These are really simple crossovers so I didn't think it was real necessary.
If you need to just lay out the parts and I'll go over it with you.
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The center and skinny sides look interesting. I'm trying to find speakers as an alternative to an Atmos Soundbar for my family room. Seems adding an X-CS and new receiver would be easiest (have X-LS) although I don't think the rear port is great in my shelf.
If I keep the entertainment towers I don't have room for floor standing sides w/o putting them out in the room.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173291)
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The center and skinny sides look interesting. I'm trying to find speakers as an alternative to an Atmos Soundbar for my family room. Seems adding an X-CS and new receiver would be easiest (have X-LS) although I don't think the rear port is great in my shelf.
If I keep the entertainment towers I don't have room for floor standing sides w/o putting them out in the room.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173291)
You can always plug the ports. They won’t play as low but you’re crossing them to a sub(s) anyway so no big deal. Then add the X-CS for center and a pair of A/V-1RS for surround speakers and you will have a really nice surround sound system.