AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?

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boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #20 on: 24 Mar 2005, 03:35 am »
Hey WEEZ,

I’m LOVING the Arcam. It’s not just a little better then I expected, its a lot better! Its making every CD I own sound good to great. Seriously, I am so impressed with it in my system, I’m sorry I waited so long to take the plunge. I can’t imagine listening without it.

The prices I quoted were less then MSRP and closer to actual retail. I paid less then 50% of that for whatever I have. So my example still stands to reason.

I know people who spend closer to twice the average cost of a single component, I think that is likely too costly but it’s a matter of personal preference.

1PsychProf, unfortunately $100 for a power cable is too cheap for anything worth wile. Since most power cords start at $75, $100 is still on the low(est) side. Forget about the value of the dollar, it’s more closely relevant to where the price starts or its range. Power Cords range from $75 to $1000, discluding the $5 computer cords and $5000 esoteric cords made with alien technology. The average cost for a good quality cord is about $250.

The BMW analogy was NOT meant to point out % of car vs. tire. Certainly a car is a much more complex machine so the tires account for a much smaller part (component) of the entire system (car). A tire to a car is more like a capacitor to a CD Player.
My point was to illustrate how its really unreasonable to use something dramatically inferior, like a pair of cheap’o RatShack IC’s on a HiFi audio component.

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #21 on: 24 Mar 2005, 01:08 pm »
Quote from: Otis
Beam me up, Scotty....  :roll:


Usually quoting Star Treks’ ‘Beam me up, Scotty’ Implies you have had enough and want off this planet. Is this what you are insinuating? If so, I don’t get it. What did I say that makes you want to leave the planet in apparent disgust?

Please share your opinions, because your vague three word reply has little value to any of us.

avahifi

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #22 on: 24 Mar 2005, 01:39 pm »
Are any of you guys actually interested in the MUSIC for the sake of the music?

Geeze.

The power cord is in series with and just an extension of the primary winding of the power transformer.  So disassemble your power transformer, take the 500 feet or so of 20 gauge lousy old copper wire and spice on 6 more feet of amazing wonder cable at one end and tell me that makes a difference.  Especially when the 6 feet of wonder cord is connected to miles and miles and miles of plain old lousy wire between your AC outlet and the power company generator, and that generator is wound with plain old lousy wire too  --- along with all the transformers, arc supressors, and whatever along the way, all covered with bird droppings.

The problem with our estimeed leader is that he has no thoughts at all, just beliefs.  Looks like just beliefs are rearing their ugly head here too.  Beliefs are great for starting wars, but not much use for advancement of the science of audio design.

Frank Van Alstine

budyog

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #23 on: 24 Mar 2005, 03:01 pm »
I have been wondering how long it will take for Frank to chime in. I am sure you have to waite for a while, let the thread perculate, chucle and finally you can't take it anymore.  :bomb:


We know you are right! Frank.  :thumb:


Hey Frank, if you really want a chucle, read the thread under "Two Channel" called "I need an Amp". This will raise the hair on the back of your neck.


But is is fun, and changing a power cord or IC's kinda make's one feel a little closer to their system. Like changing the oil in your car to a better quality oil and hoping for the results to be what you are hoping for from what you have read. Even if it don't make a difference, it feels good. :D  

My one question is, why do some power tools that draw lots of current come with a heavier power cords?  Isn't it true that an amplifier draws more current as the volume goes up?

I am sure it make's no sense to have a power cord any heavier than the 14 or 12 gauge Romex that is in the wall.

1PsychProf

3hrs! Shheesh.
« Reply #24 on: 24 Mar 2005, 05:38 pm »
Gosh, according to UPS, you've had it for 3 whole hours at the time of your post!  I would expect it to be fixed and on the way back!

Just kidding....take your time on it....but quickly.  I was going to ask you about taking off the power cord and putting on a standard PC connector, how much would that cost?

Thanks!
Dave Harris

1PsychProf

3hrs! Shheesh.
« Reply #25 on: 24 Mar 2005, 05:38 pm »
Gosh, according to UPS, you've had it for 3 whole hours at the time of your post!  I would expect it to be fixed and on the way back!

Just kidding....take your time on it....but quickly.  I was going to ask you about taking off the power cord and putting on a standard PC connector, how much would that cost?

Thanks!
Dave Harris

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #26 on: 24 Mar 2005, 06:54 pm »
Quote from: boead
Unfortunately that logic doesn’t apply. It seems it should but it doesn’t!

If that was the case, then what about all the internal connections, have you ever looked inside your preamp? The power cord wire starts and stops and goes through a fairly horrible; switch and so on. With that logic, it would be best to remove the switch too and the accessory outlets and the darn fuse for that matter.

The issues of a ‘break’ in the cord (powers path) is entirely irrelevant, IMOP! The cord changes the impedanc ...


When I said, "as a general rule," I was speaking about the theoretical best practice. In the real world, the differences are so slight as to be meaningless.

If changing the power cord has as much effect on the power supply as you state, your power supply is broken.

Hmm.... I should have asked... do you place your stereo in the back yard and need 100 foot power cords? I could see there being a difference in this case. :)

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #27 on: 24 Mar 2005, 07:57 pm »
Quote from: boead
Skrivis,

Don’t take offence and unfortunately there is no other way of putting this.

If you can’t hear the difference then that doesn’t mean that it’s not making a difference. First, your gear may not be revealing enough to display the difference, this also means your not hearing all that is recorded -or- your ears are not capable of hearing the differences either by defect or lack of caring, could be physical or mental. In your case and others like you, you should likely not bother with Hi-Fi gear,  ...


If you hear a difference, that doesn't mean there's a difference. :D

My system is quite revealing, thank you very much. For instance, I can quite clearly hear the difference between my FV amp and my OmegaStar amp.

I do know that there are a lot of people that hear differences in wire, bricks, power-conditioning clocks, felt-tip pens, etc. I admit I'm skeptical.

My friend didn't get me into the hobby, I was into hi-fi long before I met him. I started with a mono system (all tube) with a full-range Utah speaker in a bass reflex enclosure. Turntable was a Rek-O-Kut with a Pickering cartridge. I didn't get an FM tuner until later, and had gone stereo by that point. My first solid state equipment was a Harmon-Kardon receiver, and I had EPI 100 speakers since I was limited on space and money. (A paper route can only buy you so much. :)

I'm not mad at you, I think it's kind of funny. And I really do feel that there are more cost-effective ways of improving your listening experience. I'd start off by recommending an FV amp and DAC to go with your preamp. I've known Frank for a long time (20 years?) and he takes a very realistic approach to building equipment. Mithat seems to be a very bright guy, and I'm sure he has added greatly to the principles that Frank and Aado developed over the years. (Although I still don't agree with any of them regarding loudspeakers. LOL)

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #28 on: 24 Mar 2005, 08:04 pm »
Quote


But is is fun, and changing a power cord or IC's kinda make's one feel a little closer to their system. Like changing the oil in your car to a better quality oil and hoping for the results to be what you are hoping for from what you have read. Even if it don't make a difference, it feels good.


Sounds like a placebo effect to me.  :D

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #29 on: 24 Mar 2005, 08:38 pm »
Quote from: avahifi
Are any of you guys actually interested in the MUSIC for the sake of the music?

Geeze.

The power cord is in series with and just an extension of the primary winding of the power transformer.  So disassemble your power transformer, take the 500 feet or so of 20 gauge lousy old copper wire and spice on 6 more feet of amazing wonder cable at one end and tell me that makes a difference.  Especially when the 6 feet of wonder cord is connected to miles and miles and miles of plain old lousy wire between you ...


Well, you have to be somewhat into the equipment or else you'd just stick with a Bose WaveRadio or something. You can get the music with that too.

I have a friend who's a violinist, and she _does_ listen to a stereo that she got at Circuit City or similar. She gets the music just fine through it. She's heard my system and agrees it's more accurate, but it's still a pale imitation of the real thing. She seems to be able to hear through the fancy table radio to the music, and the equipment is not very important to her.

I'm not as good at doing that.

I enjoy the music very much, but I also enjoy the technology, and I like discussing it. I'm very happy to find equipment that works well and is inexpensive so that I can spend more money on CDs.

I only became a customer after doing quite a bit of research. Jensen's was one of the few places that had a logical approach to things.

You have to apply some logic to life, or else you'll be one of those people wearing a tin-foil hat to keep the aliens out.

There have been a number of comments over the years about how being an audiophile is often orthogonal to being a live music lover. I don't get to go to concerts as much as I would like (and too often you're hearing the sound system anyway - I've been in that biz...), but I get a lot of pleasure out of listening at home.

1PsychProf

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #30 on: 24 Mar 2005, 10:19 pm »
Quote



Geeze.

The power cord is in series with and just an extension of the primary winding of the power transformer. So disassemble your power transformer, take the 500 feet or so of 20 gauge lousy old copper wire and spice on 6 more feet of amazing wonder cable at one end and tell me that makes a difference. Especially when the 6 feet of wonder cord is connected to miles and miles and miles of plain old lousy wire between you ... "




I would wager that a significant portion of the posters on sites like this and Audioasylum are like me.  I never really intended to get into the hobby quite to this extent.  My JVC receiver and Bose cubes certainly produced music, but I knew from my days as a kid back in the 70's- spending my part-time job money on what is now considered "classic" equipment - I knew my sound could be so much better.  My ultimate goal was simply to have a great sounding system.  That's pretty much a hit or miss proposition if you simply select the component of the month from the audio mags and put together the hodgepodge of equipment.  I never dreamed I would audition a dozen CDP's, or spend nearly $5k on speakers, or spend a week braiding speaker cable, or "roll" tubes, or coat my room with foam squares - but I have only put forth the work and expense with one thing in mind.  To enjoy my music!

WEEZ

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #31 on: 25 Mar 2005, 12:10 am »
1Psychprof,

Your comment re:"back in the 70's..." and "now considered "classic" equipment...." sure brings back memories. (And reminds me how old I'm getting  :(  )...

My first real system included the Advent Loudspeakers; AR Turntable w/Shure cartridge; a Pioneer receiver (forget the model but it was 37wpc); and a Teac open reel tape deck. In many ways it was very musical. Accurate?- probably not. Colored?- yeah, probably. But it was musical, that's for sure. First upgrades were Dynaco tubes. And it's been a constant 'upgrade' ever since.

In those days, you used the cables that came with the equipment and bought the heaviest lamp cord you could find for speaker wire at the hardware store.

Fast forward to today. $1000 interconnects and $3500 speaker wire and $500 power cords. Do today's systems sound better? Some do. Did the wires help? Maybe. Does vinyl still sound better? ...mmmm ye-, ah, well... probably  :) .

Seriously,I think that cable technology has brought us better shielding and in some cases better signal transfer. And I use aftermarket cables. But to me, the biggest improvements in audio in a generation has been electrical components with better linearity and better signal/noise characteristics. And better speaker technology.

Today's solid state technology certainly produces better sound than my old Pioneer receiver. Today's tube amplifiers sound better than "most" of the older designs. Far more transparent with less noise. So what the hell am I trying to say?

That the equipment is still more important than the wires. The synergy between electronics and speakers will be far more important.

If one matches a less damped tube amp with speakers that are less damped, the sound will be muddy. If one matches a highly damped sounding amp (probably ss) with a highly damped speaker the sound will be thin. 'Restricted' sounding. I think that with more and more 'on-line' manufacturers and less an less availability to audition components for 'synergy' at the limited dealerships (at least in my area) for high-end components; that manufacturers should recommend a 'synergistic' set of criteria for associated components for use with their equipment. Not necessarily brand names- but synergistic characteristics. Example:

" Our amplifiers are highly damped and work best with a speaker that has the following characteristics: ............................for best performance. I know of a speaker maker that does that in the reverse. ( I paraphrase):
"Our speakers are highly damped and will be more satisfying with an amplifier that is less damped sounding and more relaxed- such as ..............for best results.

Sorry for the long rambling here.  :|

WEEZ

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #32 on: 25 Mar 2005, 04:15 am »
I like my T7 preamp but I am alarmed and frightened that the effects of a PC on the components are not only ignored by rather politely labeled as placebo by the designer. Doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy inside and certainly doesn’t give me much comfort in regards to how intently the product is being voiced. It’s much more then a science, it’s an art! Obviously Frank Van Alstine IS listening since his products all sound good but in my opinion (and the opinion of many others that own AVA gear I have spoke too) sound better with a properly chosen power cord. They’re not beliefs, they are facts! Facts because I hear them for myself quite clearly. I’ve heard the different sounds of dozens of model cords from all different makers. I haven’t heard two that sound identical. Explain to me why that is so. I wish it wasn’t, it would be much more economical to use lamp cord but lamp cord isn’t good enough.

The buying a selling of power cords on Audiogon and in retail boutiques are much too popular to say that its plecebo. The fact that SO MANY people hear such dramatic differences, it’s absurd to believe otherwise.

Skrivis, I don’t know what to say but it’s plainly clear that you don’t actually listen or simply can’t hear the differences and displace that fact for others fiction. And no, Skrivis, there is nothing wrong with my components transformers – LOL!! And there is apparently nothing wrong with my ears either since I can easily hear the subtle differences. The IC’s and cords improve on the sound of what’s already there. Ignoring it or blowing it off as ‘insignificant’ or ‘down right ridiculous’ is just robbing you of more of what you may already like in the sound of your components. I LOVE the sound of my amp and have no desire to change it. I can improve on its sound by properly choosing an AC cord and IC’s. More expensive is not always better, certainly not – I never did say that. But like most things in life, you get what you pay for most of them time. If its better, it usually cost more.

The wire in the wall and the copper in the transformers are not important, it’s the small piece of wire placed from the outlet to the IEC connector just before the transformer that is affecting the sound. It’s clearly obvious and WAY MORE then ‘mildly subtle that it’s meaningless’ to me and to very many others.

avahifi

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #33 on: 25 Mar 2005, 12:07 pm »
>The wire in the wall and the copper in the transformers are not important, it’s the small piece of wire placed from the outlet to the IEC connector just before the transformer that is affecting the sound. <

How can you "know" that the wire in the wall is not important?  I have a suggestion:  Get a really long version of your favorite $500 a foot power cord (maybe 50 feet or so) and snake your AC connection down the halls and down the stairs to the AC outlet closest to your incoming AC power box, thus eliminating as much "in the wall" AC wiring as possible and connect the AC power to the audio equipment there, and listen again.

I think the vendors of after market power cords are really missing the boat.  They should be teaming up with electrical contractors to rewire the homes of audiophiles all the way back to the 7.2KV transformers on the power pole in your backyard.  Ah the opportunities to make lots and lots of money.

I bet none of you have done a true double blind wire test.

One I did years ago produced some interesting results.  The editor of a small audiophile magazine I knew well called me raving about a new interconnect cable made by a local audiophile in his area.  He actually drove several hundred miles to install it in my system to prove to me that I was all wet in my evaluation that magic wires were all hooey.

When he showed along with his friend, we listened to my best system as is and I got a long verbal litinay of all the horrible things my standard Radio Shack and old OEM Dynaco interconnect cables were doing to my system.  I listened patently.

Then I connected the magic interconnect cable he brought with from the preamp to the power amp and listened again.

This time they were all smiles and gave me a long wonderful glowing report on the amazing improvements in the sonic quaiity (using all the same verbage the magic power line guys are using here). They were so happy to "prove" that I was all wrong about the effects of great sounding wires.

When I could not stand it any more, I went back to the system, still playing, and picked up their interconnect set, and walked back and dropped it in the editors lap.  I had never connected it up, I had just pretended to.

They had "proved me" with a before and after report when the reality was that nothing changed in the system at all,  they just thought the change had been made.

Boy were they mad at me!  They took their magic wire and left and I never heard from the editor again.

All I am trying to do it tell you over and over that sugar pills work, but they are so darn expensive, and have no real value at all.  Save your money and use it to buy CDs or season tickets to your local orchestra, or maybe our equipment.

I am kind of annoyed to see more hits on this subject than on our new Ultimate 70 amplifier, for example, when the amplifier, which costs less than most of the power cords out there, will make a real difference in your audio system, not an imaginary one.

No, I am not going to aid the cause of voodoo by putting removeable power cord sockets on our equipment.

Frank Van Alstine

[/u]

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #34 on: 25 Mar 2005, 01:33 pm »
Quote from: avahifi
How can you "know" that the wire in the wall is not important? I have a suggestion: Get a really long version of your favorite $500 a foot power cord (maybe 50 feet or so) and snake your AC connection down the halls and down the stairs to the AC outlet closest to your incoming AC power box, thus eliminating as much "in the wall" AC wiring as possible and connect the AC power to the audio equipment there, and listen again.

I think the vendors of after market power cords are really missing the boat. They should be teaming up with electrical contractors to rewire the homes of audiophiles all the way back to the 7.2KV transformers on the power pole in your backyard. Ah the opportunities to make lots and lots of money.

I bet none of you have done a true double blind wire test.


Oh, I have! A number of times. A friend who wants an honest answer to cable and tube rolls has put in cables and ask me which ones I like best while we are just hanging around nice and relaxed - just bullshitting. I can hear when he changes the cable, I hear it immediately! Quite honestly, I thick the power cords have a larger impact then interconnects.
He’ll not tell me what he puts in or even when he changes it. At some point I’ll notice and say, I like this one or not. He’s commented many times that I had picked such and such cable each time and/or I always seem to NOT like such and such. Again, the difference in sound is obvious!! Once is brighter, another has a much more pronounced midrange, yet another has loads of bass or none at all in comparison. I’m sorry Frank, that’s not placebo – it’s an distinctive difference.
I’ve had people try the fake cable roll on me and I always point out that the sound didn’t change. I understand that the mind can fabricate things and it usually does so when its excepting or anticipating something. Maybe your editor friends were just overly anxious, I mean they drove hundreds of miles to let you hear a wire, I’d never do that! Also, and take this for what’s it worth, I’ve been a magazine publisher for 15+ years and have worked with many editors. Who ever said that an editor actually knows anything about the subject of the magazine he/she edits?! They mostly don’t, finding a competent editor that can edit, write and manage people ‘AND’ actually have a strong personal interest in the subject of the publication they work on is rare, few and far between!

In regards to the wire in the wall, it definitely makes a sonic difference but you have to draw the line somewhere. I know people that have changes the wire in the wall from the utility box to their listening room and even added LARGE AC chokes to the line. The difference is dramatic but costly.  Many do it, you make it sound like it would be a ridiculous task, it’s not for some. JPS Labs, PS Audio, MIT and such all sell in-the-wall wire, high quality receptacles and even breakers.

Also, $500 per foot, that’s $1500/meter. Way more then what I listed as reasonable for the level of AVA gear. The cables I listed (and own) are between $70 and $120 per foot retail and I paid way less then that used ($30 to $70/foot) and less considering the cost of the connectors. Your $500/foot cable is 10-x’s that and yes, quite ridiculous – I agree.



Quote from: avahifi
No, I am not going to aid the cause of voodoo by putting removeable power cord sockets on our equipment.


Well that’s too bad. Again, Frank, I really like the sound of the T7. Its clear, has the drive I like for my amp which aids in its overall volume and dynamics, it responds well enough to tube rolls to allow me to find the tube that best suites the system and my taste and its fairly full featured with both phone and headphone sections.
However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #35 on: 25 Mar 2005, 04:26 pm »
Quote from: boead
However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.


I would prefer silver faceplates, but nobody was buying them so AVA went with black.

The markings are quite visible, the worksmanship is excellent, and they're quite functional.

What's not to like?

Besides that, I don't sit around and admire the look of my system, I listen to music. Isn't that the idea?

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #36 on: 25 Mar 2005, 04:34 pm »
Quote from: avahifi

I am kind of annoyed to see more hits on this subject than on our new Ultimate 70 amplifier, for example, when the amplifier, which costs less than most of the power cords out there, will make a real difference in your audio system, not an imaginary one.


For me it wasn't very interesting since I don't think I want a tube amp.

It might be fun to build one, but isn't cost-effective for me. I'd rather spend the money on having my OmegaStar upgraded to EX, or even having my FV amp upgraded.

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #37 on: 25 Mar 2005, 05:30 pm »
Quote from: skrivis
Quote from: boead
However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.


I would prefer silver faceplates, but nobody was buying them so AVA went with black.

The markings are quite visible, the worksmanship is excellent, and they're quite functional.

What's not to like?

Besides that, I don't sit around and admire the look of my system, I listen to music. Isn't that the idea?



Form follows function. I feel gypped out of Form and Style.

Not much different then a car. Who cares what it looks like you can’t see it while you’re driving, the only thing that’s important is HOW it drives and the interior directly around the driver. So should the automobile manufactures start making simple perfectly shaped objects that are optimized for function? After all, I don't sit around and admire the look of my car; I drive it to my desired destination. Who care about its looks? – I do.

About the T7 preamp: It too small, it’s too light in weight. It’s poorly dampened and isolated from vibration. It’s so light in weight that some of my cords and IC’s yank it around like it was a rag doll. It doesn’t ascetically sit well with the average sized audio component in width or depth. Its looks awkward and cheap, not so much to me as to others. I’m sorry, but the fact that it looks cheap is sad. I’ve had people that don’t necessarily care about audio, see it on my shelve and comment about it. I tell them what it cost and they ALWAYS look surprised, I’ve even gotten comments on it looking like something they saw at Radio Shack or had as a child.
My speakers, CD player and Amp aren’t elaborate in anyway but nobody is
‘surprised’ at its price. Hell, my tiny amp is ugly too – if it wasn’t for those pretty ‘fire bottles’ on top, it would be in the same category.

So don’t knock me so hard for my tastes, I own the damn things too and appreciate its sound but I don’t have to be content with it because of such!  And the sad and honest fact is that if it was more ascetically pleasing to look at, I would never continuously consider replacing it. In other words, I always have my eyes open on used preamps that will fill the bill in my budget. It’s sad, right?

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #38 on: 25 Mar 2005, 05:45 pm »
Quote from: Otis
Ok, Boead, you've been telling us of your remarkable ability to hear the differences in wires and such - time to demonstrate that ability, and at the same time make yourself rich!

The well-known illusionist/debunker The Amazing Randi has offered on his site the sum of one million dollars if anyone can clearly show the abilities you claim.

http://www.randi.org/jr/080504string.html#8

My prediction: even for a million dollars, you won't so much as pick up the phone. It's oh-so-much easier to be a bigshot and run your mouth in a forum where you can't be challenged.

So, go ahead. Show your stuff and get rich.
Otherwise, buzz off.



My remarkable ability to hear? No those are your words. I’m so NOT alone in my ability, that was part of the point that you obviously didn’t get. There are alot more people that actually hear the differences then not.


Running my mouth? No not really, it’s called discussion. If you don’t like it, don’t read any further! It’s your choice. I’ve been very nice and non-confrontational.


'So, go ahead. Show your stuff and get rich. Otherwise, buzz off.'

I never said I was a psychic or had any supernatural or paranormal ability, did I? And that web site was trash written by an obviously closed-minded buffoon.  

Buzz off? Now that’s confrontational, bud!

drystream

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #39 on: 25 Mar 2005, 05:52 pm »
How about making a cardboard cutout of a preamp you think looks wonderful?  You could lean the cutout against your T7 and have the best of both worlds--the sound of the T7 and the appearance of Brand X.