New to passives. Will one work in my system?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 5571 times.

sruffle

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 138
New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« on: 22 May 2014, 02:01 am »
I had never thought about passive preamps but have recently become really intrigued.  The LDR3 looks very interesting.  I think a passive would fit in my system but am not sure. It would go between a Rega DAC and a Rogue Audio Medusa power amp.

The Rega has a 600 ohm output impedance and goes 2.175 V.  The Medusa has an input impedance of 200,000 ohms.  It seems that a passive would be fine but I am not sure if here are any other specs, I need to check.  My interconnects are short so that is not an issue.  Are there any other factors  I should check? 

Thanks in advance for any responses.

werd

Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #1 on: 22 May 2014, 04:56 pm »
What is the gain of the Medusa? Also the gain of the passive 6db (probably) and the gain on the Rega - Looks like its got a bit of gain. Knowing total system gain is helpful when looking for a workable passive.

sruffle

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 138
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2014, 01:30 am »
FYI, I figured this out.  Based on the specs it should be ok to try.  The Medusa specifies 1.0V input and he Rega has 2.0 output.  The impedance matching should be fine

konut

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1574
  • Came for the value, stayed for the drama
`
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2014, 01:43 am »
Should be fine . What speakers are you running?

sruffle

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 138
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #4 on: 23 May 2014, 04:33 pm »
Thanks for the reply.  I am using Fritz Rev 7 speakers.  They are 4 ohm speakers rated  89db sensitivity.  Not the easiest to drive but not a hard load either.  My room is 12*20 and I sit about 10 feet from the speakers.

avahifi

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 4683
    • http://www.avahifi.com
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #5 on: 23 May 2014, 08:49 pm »
Remember that a passive volume control cannot turn the volume up, it can only turn it down.  It really should not be called a preamplifier because it cannot amplify at all.

Whether it will work for you depends upon the voltage gain of your power amplifier (X25 is typical) the efficiency of your speakers, and the nominal voltage output level of your source material.  Note that the max output spec of your DAC refers to all bits being turned on in your digital material.  This rarely happens and the recording level of various source material varies a lot.  A low level recording combined with a low gain power amp and inefficient speakers will yield low playback volume.



Frank Van Alstine
« Last Edit: 27 May 2014, 01:17 pm by avahifi »

sruffle

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 138
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #6 on: 23 May 2014, 10:38 pm »
Thanks for your reply.  These are excellent points.  I recently stumbled onto the idea of a passive as an option to explore as my current preamp is the weakest link in my chain.  My impression is that people tend to either love the or hate them - not much in between.  I can see both sides of the coin.

P.S.  I bought a Humdinger from you a few weeks ago.  It works exactly as I had hoped.  It is nice when that happens.

konut

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1574
  • Came for the value, stayed for the drama
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2014, 09:32 pm »
While Mr. Van Alstine is absolutely right on every point, I would submit that your system IS an excellent candidate for a passive. What is your present pre? What is it's rated voltage output?
      Years ago source components typically had rated maximum output of .775V. This ABSOLUTELY required the use of regular preamps. Many of today's source components have an output that resembles what most preamps output, as is the case with your Rega DAC, of 2.175V. Seeing as your amp has a rated sensitivity, for full output, of 1.0V , there is no question that all you really need is attenuation. The LDR3 will do that really well. And there's the 30 day audition, so.......

Quiet Earth

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1788
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #8 on: 25 May 2014, 02:52 am »
I think an "excellent" situation for a passive pre is where the power amplifier only requires 0.25V (or 250mV) for full power output and the speakers are 92dB efficient or better. With a 1V input on your Rogue amp and the 89 dB efficiency on your Fritz speakers, I would say that you are squarely in the middle of the try it and see camp. I think the dynamic range could be a little underwhelming, especially in a room of that size and also if you have a lot of older, quieter CDs.

Having said all that, if it were me I would definitely try it and see because you will learn more by trying it for yourself than by reading about it on the internet. I am really glad that I tried it many years ago when I was getting tired of my old preamplifier. I have been a passive volume control user for about 10 years now and it's really hard to go back to active. The only way I could go active would be to reduce the gain in my amplifier and I really don't want to mess with that because I like my power amp way too much, just the way that it is. (It has a ton of gain, and yeah, it only needs 250mV for full power out.)

Anyway, good luck experimenting and have fun with it.  :thumb:

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10661
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #9 on: 25 May 2014, 10:19 am »
I've done active, passive, and stepped attenuators.  In my system active sound(s) best, stepped attentuators were a close 2nd, and the passive sounded muted (mostly high frequencies).  I use Channel Island D-100 mono-block amps that are designed for passive with 90 dB/w/m speakers near-field in a 13x21x8 room.

Check on the capacitance/resistance of your interconnects.  The purists use stepped attenuators (volume control made of individual resistors, one per step that connect directly into your power amp/monoblocks) to eliminate this issue.  Sure it's inconvenient (if you have multiple sources or don't have a volume control at the source), but isn't overspending for less features/convenience what audio is all about?   :scratch:

sruffle

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 138
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #10 on: 25 May 2014, 04:04 pm »
I think I owe it to myself to give this a shot.  Does the following plan sound reasonable?

Buy the cheapest passive I can find to see if it works in my system and my room. If I like the nature of what I am hearing, I could then sell my current pre-amp (Acurus RL-11) to upgrade to a better pre (Tortuga LDR3 would be great to try).  The cheap passive would stay as a back-up.

Thanks again for the replies.

undertow

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 894
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2014, 04:18 pm »
The bottom line is most amplifiers have about 24 db gain. This can be a bit on the low side if your running 89 db efficient speakers. An amp that worked great to offset this is something like McCormack amplifiers having 30 db plus sometimes on input gain.

Impedance input matters for all passives accept one I know of... Made by BENT the Tap x which is capable of driving any low impedance signal including parallel loads like extra subs, or amps driving bi-amplification. Not to mention it will drive 5ft cables the same as 50 ft where that is a total no / no on conventional passives.

Its better than any active preamp period if you have the supporting gear. But this is with a decent high gain amp. It worked fine with a Mcintosh 402 amp with 26 db gain on XLR inputs, mainly the difference in 3 db was made up due to the extra power this amp can put out being 400 watts a channel.

Otherwise same speakers about 89 db I tried with a McCormack amp with 30 db gain, and only 125 watts per channel played as loud if not more!

Most passives with a conventional setup you are talking about will push you into HALF volume or more on the Volume Control just so you know, and as a warning those REALLY weak albums that are about 6 db too low on the recording could push you nearly all the way up the scale on a passive.

Unless you have a really efficient speaker 94 db plus, and an amp capable of better than the standard 24 or 26 db gain on the inputs I will tell you that the passive might not work as universally as you wish accept with some very high output Phono stages, or CD players. Another trick to keep in mind is that most XLR true balanced components can put out 4 volts over 2 volts on most RCA so that can be an advantage as well specifically when chosing to go 100% passive volume.

Good Luck

sruffle

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 138
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2014, 04:47 pm »
Interesting points.  My preamp was modded a few years ago and the gain being reduced but I don't know what it is set at now.   The power amp puts out 400 wpc into 4 ohm speakers.  Does strength of the amp play into this at all?  It seems that this is a separate issue from gain and doesn't impact how it would perform with a passive pre.

dburna

Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #13 on: 25 May 2014, 04:55 pm »
Interesting points.  My preamp was modded a few years ago and the gain being reduced but I don't know what it is set at now.   The power amp puts out 400 wpc into 4 ohm speakers.  Does strength of the amp play into this at all?  It seems that this is a separate issue from gain and doesn't impact how it would perform with a passive pre.

Yes, that could work, as long as you give some wide latitude in case the cheap passive doesn't float your boat.  In theory, your approach should work well; in practice, I have found the difference between the Tortuga LDR3 and other cheapo passives to be huge.  I had a resistor-ladder passive that was pretty good, but it didn't prepare me for the sonic improvement that the Tortuga brought (disclosure: I am in the process of having a DIY Tortuga built for me).  Sooooo, the bottom line is that there isn't a fool-proof way to try something entry-level and know if one of the better passives (Bent, Tortuga) will be a good "final" destination for you.

Another option might be to cast around AC and see if anyone in your area would either let you borrow a top passive pre-amp and/or let you come listen to theirs.  Just a suggestion -- that might give you a better sense of what is possible without shelling out for an interim solution.

-dB

wilsynet

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1228
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #14 on: 25 May 2014, 05:06 pm »
What are examples of cheap passives?  In my experience, it's at least $500 to get to something pretty good.

If it doesn't need to be any good, I'll send you my Music Reference pot-in-box which cost me $200 (?) and is rather veiled and murky.

Cover my cost of packaging and shipping and return it to me in a month or two and you've got a deal.

Wilson

srb

Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #15 on: 25 May 2014, 05:07 pm »
The bottom line is most amplifiers have about 24 db gain. This can be a bit on the low side if your running 89 db efficient speakers. An amp that worked great to offset this is something like McCormack amplifiers having 30 db plus sometimes on input gain.

I think your generalization is on the low side.  Most solid state power amplifiers have somewhat higher gain than 24dB.  For example, a sampling of popular power amps voltage gain specs

Bryston - 29dB
Class D Audio - 31dB
Classe - 29dB
NAD - 29dB
Parasound - 28dB
Simaudio - 31dB 
Wyred4Sound - 30.5 - 33dB

and sruffle's Rogue Medusa Hypex UCD-400 based amp was measured by BHK labs to have a gain of 31.9dB.

Steve

undertow

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 894
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #16 on: 25 May 2014, 05:16 pm »
Practice and Theory are two different things unfortunatley in this hobby.

Fact is yes 400 watts output helps, it will control the speaker better, and maybe give you a useable boost of 3 db from say a 200 watt amp. Or 6 db over a 100 watt amp as you will be forced to turn it up more (using passive).

A 89 db load is not bad, but trust me when I tell you this the entire "Gain Chain" from efficiency of the speaker to the true voltage output of devices creating the proper overall gain is necessary to make a Recording sound like it should. Not so much Passive vs. Active.

The best way I can point you in true USEAGE vs. Theory is this :

A more Sensitive amp input (nothing to do with impedance) with better gain will help to play most recordings that need help over Amp output power vs. speaker sensitivity.

In otherwords going passive from many experiments in my testing is that you want an amplifier that will go to FULL power with about 1.5 volts or less. And have a gain of at least 28 db in general.

The example I gave above with the Mcintosh amp in theory was exactly what I am talking about. That AMP took 4.5 VOLTS to push it to its full power quite a bit over others, that means even with most XLR sources thru a passive we might get about 4.0 volts start to stop. Not only that it had about a 20,000 ohm input impedance if I remember right?

Anyway it also had 24 db of gain.

It was good, but lets put it this way if you want the dynamics and capability of full blown "Metallica" rock or some other stuff believe it or not a "High Gain" input amp with lets say 30 db vs. the 24 db in this case is far more effective than 400 watts or 100 watts feeding a 89 db speaker.

Both amps have enough output to rock the house with that speaker. Problem is the "Gain chain" in front of it that if not handled right in the first place can dissapoint and sound flat.

In theory for a passive any amp with less than 2 volts necessary to drive it with an input impedance of 100,000 ohm should ideally work fine in a passive situation, but this will not guarantee you will like it.

By the way another reason I mentioned the McCormack amp as an example... It only took 0.8 volts to drive full power, and has a 100,000 ohm impedance, and had 31 db of gain :-) all around perfect to test a passives true capability as it almost had the 6 db active preamp built in. There are other amps I used like this such as Clayton mono blocks that have 29 db input gain and 100 k impedance as well, but very expensive.

Some amps will work, but you still may end up short if you are use to having that EXTRA power at the top end you get with Active preamps unless you really have the right amp. Even some tubes can do this well and only put out 20 to 100 watts. You really need to know how much voltage to drive that amp it really takes, and gain helps.

As stated above you can always try one first if you have a way to do it. But if you don't like having your volume 50% to 80% all the way up a lot of the time it might not work out well with your current speaker and amp combo even if that amp was 1000 watts.

sruffle

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 138
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #17 on: 25 May 2014, 05:20 pm »
What are examples of cheap passives?  In my experience, it's at least $500 to get to something pretty good.

If it doesn't need to be any good, I'll send you my Music Reference pot-in-box which cost me $200 (?) and is rather veiled and murky.

Cover my cost of packaging and shipping and return it to me in a month or two and you've got a deal.

Wilson
That is an extremely generous offer.  Even if I don't take you up on it, that made my day.

I was thinking about trying a DIY version listed on A-Gon under the name Abacus 128 step relay attenuator.  I am sure there is a big quality difference between this and a higher quality pre but it would let me see how my amp performs in a system using no gain



undertow

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 894
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #18 on: 25 May 2014, 05:21 pm »
srb,

Don't get me wrong I am sure there are many out there!

But also how much voltage do they take to drive? This does make a big difference as well. Just saying from experience. Not saying no other amp can work, but people that get use to that extra at least 6 db from a Active preamp without a good gain amplifier can find it to fall flat.

Most want to go into Passives due to lowering distortion, and in fact DROP gain as many Active preamps put out WAY too much gain, like 10 to 20 db extra and they can't turn their volume past 25%.

To be honest with most preamps if they gave you an option like Audio research most would use about 6 db gain on top of the standard amps of lets say 24 to 26 db.

But where the Active preamp will help in most situations is extra voltage driving the amps input.

undertow

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 894
Re: New to passives. Will one work in my system?
« Reply #19 on: 25 May 2014, 05:32 pm »
Rogue Medusa Hypex UCD-400

That's cool.. I never heard the UCD-400

I built the Hypex NC400 amps with dual mono supplies. Good amp, gain was about 26 db...

End of story - Believe it or not I did use that one with a Passive - No good.

The Hypex NC400 on paper works well with passives, and it does, but unless you have some pretty efficient speakers I would not recommend it. That was used with an 88 db sensitivity speaker at the time a couple years ago when I did it.

Plus the Hypex NC400 is fully balanced which can help a bit, I think it took over 2 volts to really drive I can't remember maybe the full 4 volts in XLR, but I would still recommend high efficiency speakers, or Active preamp - not a Passive with an NC-400.

If the UCD-400 has 31 db of gain you might be just fine!