amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205

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audiojerry

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« on: 4 Apr 2003, 02:09 pm »
I know I'm probably opening myself up for ridicule, but I am extremely impressed by this lttle sub. It has two vertically stacked eight inch drivers mounted on a narrow profile baffle that have as much effective extreme low end output as anything I've heard. The specs rate them at 23hz, and I'm a believer.

I currently have in house 2 Earthquake and 2 Bag-End subs. The Yamaha goes lower with much better articulation and speed. It doesn't move as much air as the big guys, but at $128 each, you can buy 15 for the price of one Earthquake. I picked one up at Best Buy for $219 just to try it out, and later found several web dealers offering them at $128. I got mine at H&R: http://store.yahoo.com/h-and-r/info.html

Using just one, it integrated very nicely with my very transparent ProAc 1SC's. I have ordered two for my audio system. I will connect directly to the speaker outputs and not use any crossover. The 24 db low pass filter on the Yamaha is very effective at blocking out the high frequencies. Almost nothing but bass can be heard coming from the drivers. By contrast, the Bag End and Earthquake have plenty of higher frequency information getting through.  

Using just one unit, playing at low volume in the basement. My son came running down from his second floor bedroom to find out what was shaking the light fixture in his room. Objects were rattling all over the place. You couldn't hear it as much as feel it. This was at low volume remember. I can't imagine what several units spread out in a room would do. I am not exaggerating. Even the Bag End and Earthquake cannot duplicate this feat unless you crank the volume up, but then you are hearing more than you are feeling. I like the visceral impact that the Yamaha produces. 128 BUCKS!  Another bonus is that they are very small and don't occupy typical subwoofer real estate.

Has anyone else ever tried these little guys?

nathanm

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #1 on: 4 Apr 2003, 02:53 pm »
Now that's an interesting turning of the tables!  The SON coming downstairs to yell at DAD to "Turn that awful racket down!!!"  Parents these days, with their booming bass music...I tell ya!  :lol:  What kind of weird upside down world is audiojerry living in?

The rattling objects comment reminded me of the stuff Michael Barnes wrote about your house buzzing because of cheap, distortion-generating subs and not simply low, loud bass:

Quote from: norh website
Adding a subwoofer should not shake the walls. It should not vibrate your furniture. It should simply add depth and intensity to the music. When there are sections with deep bass, the bass should create shockwaves that you feel but don't hear. The sounds you hear of things rattling in your house is not from the bass. It is from the resonances (distortions) that cheap subwoofer amplifiers put out.

source: subs

Hmmm...personally I think even if you've got the cleanest sub in the world it will excite resonances in certain objects.  The suggestion that only distortion (higher in frequency) tones excite resonances seems odd to me.  Certainly subs are not usually set up to produce solely infrasonic information.  I dunno...need more info.

audiojerry

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #2 on: 4 Apr 2003, 03:34 pm »
I neglected to say that late that evening he grabbed the Yamaha and hooked it up to his system in the bedroom...argh..."Son, SHUT THAT DAMN THING OFF!!!"

As a way of testing the quality of the bass, I ran the music signal to the sub only without the main speakers, and it sounded fast, tight, and tuneful. I will report back when I have two subs hooked up. Naturally, I returned the unit I bought for $229 to Best Buy.

JoshK

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #3 on: 4 Apr 2003, 03:45 pm »
Jerry,

Does the subwoofer have a SS or digital amp?  I imagine that as the mainstream catches on to digital amps that better and cheaper subs will be in our future.

Jay S

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #4 on: 4 Apr 2003, 03:48 pm »
You can find more info at: http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/pdfs/moreinfo/ystsw205.pdf

Unfortunately, this doc won't display properly on my laptop!  :evil:

JoshK

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #5 on: 4 Apr 2003, 04:05 pm »
It makes no mention of the amp technology except to say "highly efficient amp".    This leads me to believe that they are indeed using digital amps.  I think digital amps are perfect for bass.

Brad

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #6 on: 4 Apr 2003, 04:53 pm »
Thanks for the hookup AJ!

At that price, why not try it?

randog

Re: amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #7 on: 4 Apr 2003, 05:04 pm »
Quote from: audiojerry
It has two vertically stacked eight inch drivers mounted on a narrow profile baffle that have as much effective extreme low end output as anything I've heard.


The specs make it look as though the SW205 is a single driver and the SW305 has the two ("dual") stacked drivers. What am I missing?

Randog

JoshK

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #8 on: 4 Apr 2003, 05:41 pm »
Sounds like a good match for my slated HT project!

FYI, my HT project (just a vision at the moment) involves building five speakers based off the tang band drivers.  Amps will likely be built based on the Gainclone amp and using my Klipsch decoder as pre/pro.  Budget HT system that is space friendly and wife pleasing!  Leaves more money for my music rig!

bubba966

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #9 on: 4 Apr 2003, 08:03 pm »
Quote from: JoshK
It makes no mention of the amp technology except to say "highly efficient amp".    This leads me to believe that they are indeed using digital amps.  I think digital amps are perfect for bass.


But it does say at the top of the page that it's a "Digital Home Theater Subwoofer"

So you must be right that it's a digital amp in there.

Ravi

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #10 on: 4 Apr 2003, 08:32 pm »
AJ, i love these kinds of contributions  :D  And especially a good sub, which are very hard to find cheap.

Are the 8" drivers front firing?  From the specs, there should only be a single 8" driver in the 205, but you stated that your sub has two of them.  Could it be that you got a SW305 by mistake, because thats the sub that has the dual stacked 8" drivers?  Please clarify if you can...

Excellent find!

P.S.  Nathan, about that Norh quote on subs....I find it very peculiar when a manufacturer makes claims like that.  They are basically stating that a sub that goes below 30hz (when things start to shake), is not a good sub.  So there you have it people, the Adire Tumult and Tempest are bad subs from that point of view  :wink:

Xi-Trum

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #11 on: 4 Apr 2003, 08:52 pm »
The frequency specs for these subs are -10dB.   :o   That's a huge margin if you ask me.  Maybe that's common for subs?

nathanm

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #12 on: 4 Apr 2003, 09:11 pm »
Quote from: Ravi
P.S.  Nathan, about that Norh quote on subs....I find it very peculiar when a manufacturer makes claims like that.  They are basically stating that a sub that goes below 30hz (when things start to shake), is not a good sub.  So there you have it people, the Adire Tumult and Tempest are bad subs from that point of view  :wink:


Well, I don't think that's what he meant exactly.  I think he was complaining that cheap sub amps create distortion and it's the distortion which makes your dinner plates and your windows etc. buzz.  That's the part I am questioning, what frequencies are we talking about here?  Because I assume distortion means the speaker will be playing higher harmonics above the crossover point.  Perhaps I am reading into it too much.  Personally I feel that loud SPLs near the bottom octaves, even if they are clean are going to make stuff around your house make noise in an unwanted manner regardless of the amplifier's performance.

If it's infrasonics you want I heartily recommend the Buttkicker tactile transducer.  I picked one of these up recently and it's one helluva cool little beast.  I bolted it to an old office chair and by pumping 600+ watts into the sucker I can make the chair jump in the air on kick drum hits (when I'm not sitting in it that is).  Heavy man. :D

Ravi

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #13 on: 4 Apr 2003, 09:13 pm »
X-Trum,

Yep,  i noticed that too.  But after you take room gain at 20hz into account (probably about 6db in a typical room), that should give the low end a good solid boost.  But ofcourse thats totally room dependant.

rosconey

amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #14 on: 4 Apr 2003, 09:16 pm »
they must have changed them since i had mine a year or so ago-it stunk
another thing why do people want to use cheap class d and g amps for subs, to me bass is a part of the music so why not use a quality amp?
i've heard the differences and it is major-the digital amps sound like a 18 year olds 92 honda with to much of nothing--bom bom bom-not very musical.i bought to nice a sub (vmps large) and will get a nice amp for it  as my last part of my system-now i have a h-k pa2000 bridged 100 wpc -i want 2 more odyssey mono's for it but that aint happening unless i hit the lotto tomorrow night- :mrgreen:


go S U

audiojerry

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #15 on: 5 Apr 2003, 03:39 am »
Sorry for not getting back to this thread; it's been a hectic day.

First off, do not buy from H&R direct. They are not honoring my confirmed written order. The order states that shipping would be $37 for both subs. I received a notice from them today, that they have shipped the first unit for $47, and the second unit is on back order and would also be $47 for shipping. I informed them that I will be instructing mycredit card carrier to withold payment to them.

I returned my original unit to Best Buy, so I can't confirm if there were one or two 8" drivers. I didn't remove the cover, but I believe there were two front firing 8" drivers.

John Casler

Re: amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #16 on: 5 Apr 2003, 05:09 pm »
[/quote]I know I'm probably opening myself up for ridicule, but I am extremely impressed by this lttle sub. It has two vertically stacked eight inch drivers mounted on a narrow profile baffle that have as much effective extreme low end output as anything I've heard. The specs rate them at 23hz, and I'm a believer.

I currently have in house 2 Earthquake and 2 Bag-End subs. The Yamaha goes lower with much better articulation and speed. It doesn't move as much air as the big guys, but at $128 each, you can buy 15 for the price of one Earthquake.
[/quote]

Hi AJ,

While I don't dispute your impressions I certainly wonder where they come from.  I have not heard the 8" Yamaha, but do have the VMPS Larger and the 15" Earthquake.  I find it remarkable that you claim the Yamaha "goes lower with much better articulation and speed", but in your next sentence you say "It doesn't move as much air as the big guys".

Low Extension and articulation, while not mutually exclusive, are certainly qualities that are at differenct ends of the bass perfromance spectrum.  Articulation would certainly be considered a quality to do with the reactive speed of the woofer and Low Extension with its ability to "pressurize" a large volume of air, producing a larger waveform.

To think that two (or is it 1) 8" woofs can out woof (both going lower and tighter) is interesting.  To further complicate the report you suggest that:

[/quote]"Almost nothing but bass can be heard coming from the drivers. By contrast, the Bag End and Earthquake have plenty of higher frequency information getting through."[/quote]

Now since "fast articulate bass" is generally thought to be at a higher frequency, this report too is interesting.

Also the Earthquake manual instructs you on adjusting the upper frequencies via the crossover, however if your source is sending a full signal then it would seem that the Yammie is x-overed internally already.  This is not a malfunction of the other Subs it is something that has to be "set" by the user.

You also wrote:

[/quote]"Using just one unit, playing at low volume in the basement. My son came running down from his second floor bedroom to find out what was shaking the light fixture in his room. Objects were rattling all over the place. You couldn't hear it as much as feel it. This was at low volume remember. I can't imagine what several units spread out in a room would do. I am not exaggerating. Even the Bag End and Earthquake cannot duplicate this feat unless you crank the volume up, but then you are hearing more than you are feeling. I like the visceral impact that the Yamaha produces."[/quote]

It seems here that you are saying the Yammie produces "tactile" without producing "hearable" bass.  And you are saying that the other subs cannot do this.  

All this seems like very strange performance characteristics.

What is even stranger is that it appears that this sub does all this "and" out performs "highly regarded" subs with a single 8" driver.

I for one, would like to hear more.

But if I remember correctly you also filed a report about the Earthquake CineNova power amp being "veiled, muted, soft, and lacking in dynamics." in comparison to an Odyssey.

Now I have no idea what speaker and set up were in that comparison, but I have the CineNova driving a pair of RM40TRTs and have A/B'd it with several quality amps or have heard the RM40s with a few others, and not to take anything away from the Odyssey, but the CineNova could in no way be ""veiled, muted, soft, and lacking in dynamics."

You don't dislike your Earthquake dealer do you? :lol:

Now another interesting quirk is I located in that thread :

http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5520&highlight=cinenova

In that thread you state that:

Quote
Anyway, he reluctantly agreed to try the Earthquake, because he was very pleased the the Earthquake sub he recently bought, which he combined with 2 Bag End subs he already had. Man, the bass is so low that you feel it more than hear it. It was a great cure for my constipation. He also was influenced by some very positive reviews of the amp in AudioReview and by Richard Hardesty of Widescreen Review.
Quote



Are the Earthquake Sub and the 2 Bag End subs of this test, (which in that review you say "DID" produce Low Bass you could "feel more than hear"), the same ones your talking about now, that currently cannot produce this same property?

I'm confused :?

Regards,
 
John Casler
 
VMPS LA CA USA
SUMMIT Audio Video
310-446-0138
800-320-6884 (order desk)
bioforce.inc@gte.net
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;system=72
http://my.register.com/summitaudiovideo.com/index.html

Ravi

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #17 on: 5 Apr 2003, 05:35 pm »
John, thats a great technical argument...

AJ,  I actually recall that a friend of mine brought a similar Yammie sub to a party last year (it was either the sw205 or sw305), and I must admit that the bass was pretty tight, and had a room shaking ability.  But I actually found it VERY one note, and majorly lacking in definition.  It was all thudthudthud.  Now,  this could have also been because it was really being cranked, and mainly techno and the likes were being played on it.

This is very interesting, but AJ, I really trust your reviews, so at the very least, there must be a room synergy thing happening here.  Maybe in a room that absorbs a lot of bass, the Yamaha may be perfect.

audiojerry

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #18 on: 6 Apr 2003, 02:38 am »
Hi John,
That was a very thorough critique, and I give you credit for doing the research. I'd like to devote as much quality time to respond approprietly, but I'm afraid I don't have it.
Let me clarify a few things.

I do not own the Bag Ends or the Earthquakes. They belong to a friend who is building a new home and had to temporarily disassemble his HT system. He is letting me keep and use his 3 Odyssey amps and his 4 subs.

When I commented on the performance of the Earthquakes, Cinenova, and Odyssey's, these components were in his home theater, which is a larger space with different acoustics. His room apparently allowed for greater expansion of the low frequency wave, because the subs did produce room and house shaking bass. In my home, this effect has not been attainable unless I crank them up. When this is done, things do shake, but you still don't get that visceral sensation that comes from the lowest bass.

I'm sorry, but the difference between the Odyssey's and the Cinenova was as I described. Jerry, the owner, could have purchased the Cinenova at a price that would have been lower than the resale value of the Odyssey's, but he had no interest after the audition. The Odyssey's were clearly superior for HT.

As for the Yamaha, all I can say is I have the Bag End's and the Earthquakes at my disposal, and I'd rather use the Yamaha. When I get my pair, I invite anyone to come and compare for themselves.

And I also believe the Bag End is a better sub than the Earthquake.

On the ability to move air, the bigger Bag End's and Earthquakes do move more air, but at a higher frequency. 40 - 50hz moved by 4 large subs is still going to be an impressive bass output, but 20 -30 hz is a frequency you feel as much as hear. That is why I believe the Yamaha causes things to shake 2 floors above, while the Bag End and Earthquakes don't create this in my home.

As for articulate bass, I would describe articulate as starting and stopping very quickly. No overhang, no laziness. The Yamaha is articulate. The Bag End is articulate. I found the Earthquake to be very un-articulate, at least at lower spl. Maybe the Earthquakes excel when there are explosive events to reproduce.

I am not an HT person, so I can't speak with too much authority on HT gear. But I heard the Cinenova side by side with the Odyssey's. I was only commenting on my personal experience. However, my HT friend, Jerry concurred all the way.

Rob Babcock

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amazing bargain subwoofer - the Yamaha YST-SW205
« Reply #19 on: 6 Apr 2003, 02:55 am »
Damn, if it was anyone else I'd likely laugh it off, but you've always shown yourself to be very leve, solid and honest.  Though I admit to being sceptical, I will have to check out the Yamaha.  My sister could use a good sub, and I wouldn't mind adding one to my bedroom system.  No, the Hsu's aren't leaving my main rig! :nono:

Have you figured out for sure which model you're using?  I think the 305 is the only one with two woofs; is that the one you've got?  If it's the smaller one, I guess more's the better as that's pretty cheap.

I will have to go on record as saying I have seen some very modest and unassuming gear kick ass all over more expensive stuff.  If this sub is really that good it's a major feather in the cap of Yamaha.