AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: JoshK on 16 Feb 2006, 09:37 pm

Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 16 Feb 2006, 09:37 pm
Just to get the conceptual idea down straight, the Felix would something like this?

Mains > X2 cap across > Breaker > CMC > caps across > CMC > caps across > outlet

Is that about it? Basically using the CMC in lieu of Tx's and not getting balanced?
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 16 Feb 2006, 11:12 pm
Quote from: Occam
Nothing would preclude you from feeding Felix via a big honking balancing transformer.


Funny you say that....my inquiry was sparked by me ordering one of the few remaining Q in a box txs.  I asked after I had given my CC # and he said he had 3-4 left....

I guess I was thinking an input CMC for each outlet too, but I guess that wouldn't be necessary.  You would just have to appropriately size the input CMC then, yeah (current wize)?
Title: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 17 Feb 2006, 12:09 am
Josh,

Actually, I mispoke when I described the Felix topology described above as equivalent as an Audience Adept.
The Adept from the 6moons review -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4726)
Upon further reflection, I understand why the Adepts is -
Mains--->Breakers---->X cap + 2 Y caps----> multiple paralell CMCs terminated with Xcap to each outlet.
The potential problem with a single CMC before the paralleled (CMCs + xxx + outlet) is that that single CMC would have to pass the total of all the currents whereas those paralleled CMCs only pass the current associated with its individual outlet. The same caveat would apply to a CMC that feeds the unit or a balancing transformer. I'm not saying its impractical, just that its easier to source a CMC that won't saturate when feeding the lesser draw of an individual component. And yes, CMCs theoretically just overheat and don't saturate, but in reality they do....
The benefit of CMCs with associated caps for each outlet is that in addition to minimizing the potential problems of saturation, they also provide isolation between components.

Personally, I don't like Y caps in non balanced environments, but Audience does, and who am I to argue?
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 17 Feb 2006, 12:26 am
cool, thanks... I remembered seeing that picture but couldn't find where....

with a bptx (balance power transformer) prior to this topology we are going to get something close to a Felicia in terms of filtration, I imagine.
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 17 Feb 2006, 12:30 am
P.S.  I am a little surprised they use buss bars and only a single star ground.  I know it is far easier to do, but fwiw (not much) I have tried similar and didn't get nearly as good of results as when each and every outlet was star grounded.  Is this over the top or proper?  I'd think proper so that each component plugged in is star grounded without the ground being "modulated" by other components.
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 21 Feb 2006, 12:16 am
I am really curious about the bus bar for ground.  It would sure be easier to work with in many cases.  Is this generally just as good when star grounded as taking each individual point to the star ground?  

As always, the grounding seems to be the mystery of diy.
Title: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 21 Feb 2006, 12:46 pm
Josh,

As I recall and from the pics above, the Adept doesn't use a buss bar for grounds, but rather, daisy chains the grounds on the outlets, and finally star grounds the terminus of the chain along with the Y caps to the chassis.
Title: Felix project
Post by: sl_1800 on 24 Feb 2006, 02:15 pm
I'm lost, what is a "CMC"  ????  And from what I see in those pics, Audience is making a killing at nearly 4G's for that thing.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that does not know what a "CMC" is so that is how they can charge that much !!!!!
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 24 Feb 2006, 02:51 pm
Well I don't know that they are making a killing, since if you add up the parts (which are a lot) you might come up with more $$ than a BPT (just guessing), but still at twice the retail.  

Anyway, this isn't to take the legs out from any manufacturer, this is just imation as the greatest form of flattery.  We are doing something similar because it was so profoundly effective.

CMC = common mode choke.  It is a type of inductor (choke) that has two windings in opposite directions to cancel electro-magnetic noise.  It is embedded in many off the shelf power filters AFAIK.
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 24 Feb 2006, 02:55 pm
One other point, because the Felix is made up of a bunch a small (relatively speaking) parrellel parts, one could also choose to place the caps and chokes inside their amps (behind breaker or fuse of course) instead of in a PC.
Title: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 24 Feb 2006, 03:04 pm
Common Mode Choke (CMC) -
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1503998

As to the 'killing' made via the production of the Audience Adept -
The advantage of DIYers is that our time for R&D, sourcing and manufacturing has absolutely no value, and we can sometimes sources surplus components. Audience is running a business, not a charity, and even at those prices I wouldn't think they're getting rich. Remember, the retailer has to get their 'points'.

Q: How do you make a million in the high end audio biz?
A: Start with 2 million.....

This is the Lab, and if we want to discuss 'rapacious' vendors, lets do it on another circle.
Title: Felix project
Post by: sl_1800 on 24 Feb 2006, 05:50 pm
Thanks for the input guys.
Title: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 24 Feb 2006, 08:28 pm
Where can I buy some CMC's for my double socket box I am making? Also does any one have a schematic?
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 24 Feb 2006, 08:44 pm
DOS,

Paul gave me a pair of CMCs to play with.  We haven't experimented with size (uH) to know what works best, or even what value caps work best.  It looks as though the Adept uses a plethora of varying sized caps. Who knows what size cmc they used.  We need to experiment, hence the word "project".  

Here is the schematic:  Mains in > fuse > [ x2 cap > cmc > more caps > outlet ]   put as many of the [ ]'s that you want outlets in parrallel.
Title: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 27 Feb 2006, 05:15 pm
Quote from: JoshK
DOS,

Paul gave me a pair of CMCs to play with.  We haven't experimented with size (uH) to know what works best, or even what value caps work best.  It looks as though the Adept uses a plethora of varying sized caps. Who knows what size cmc they used.  We need to experiment, hence the word "project".  

Here is the schematic:  Mains in > fuse > [ x2 cap > cmc > more caps > outlet ]   put as many of the [ ]'s that you want outlets in parrallel.


Yeah... I just thought some CMC's for noise would be cool to through in my little box.
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 12 Jun 2006, 12:04 am
I am starting to finally start thinking about doing this project.  I dread the listening tests though, as in the Audience Adept (AA hereafter), there are dozens of caps.  Nobody has the inside scoop on the size of the CMCs do they?
Title: Felix project
Post by: GBB on 12 Jun 2006, 03:36 am
Quote from: JoshK
Nobody has the inside scoop on the size of the CMCs do they?


Josh,
Paul has inspired me to play with power conditioners too, so I've started assembling parts for an Audience Adept clone.  I was ordering parts for another project from Mouser so I picked up a few Triad CMCs.  The ones I got are part # 553-CMT908H4.  They are rated at 16mH and 2.6A RMS.  I figured that would be a good starting point.
I don't know if they're similar to Adept CMCs but they look nicely built.  They're potted which should be good for minimizing noise.  I'd previously used some Panasonic CMCs from Digikey and they buzzed when used on the AC line.  I'll let you know how things turn out.  

---Gary
Title: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 12 Jun 2006, 01:36 pm
Hey Gary,

Good to have you on board!  I have a couple of CMCs from a surplus center that I will try out and compare to my Felicia.  

By the way, I'd love to see what you did for your instrumentation output for the Art DI/O.  

Josh
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TimS on 9 Nov 2007, 12:13 am
Thought I'd have go at power-conditioning using the Felix design as I constructed some Felicia's awhile ago and was very impressed with the results. I needed a bit of help constructing the Felicia and now have a few questions :scratch: (and hopefully not too dumb) re:the Felix.

There doesn't seem to be as much discussion on the right combination of caps and CMC as there was for the Felicia.  I wonder if many have experimented with different brands of X rated capacitors and/or CMC's for the best results or is the design good enough to use any quality brands.  Also, are the suggested values (C1, C4 = 0.47uF etc) the optimum values to use?

Finally, if I understand correctly the Felix doesn't offer balanced power like the Felicia but I have read that some may have tried a suitable transformer before the Felix.  Did this improve the performance much? 

cheers

Tim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 26 Jan 2008, 05:00 pm
DOS,

Paul gave me a pair of CMCs to play with.  We haven't experimented with size (uH) to know what works best, or even what value caps work best. It looks as though the Adept uses a plethora of varying sized caps. Who knows what size cmc they used.  We need to experiment, hence the word "project". 

Here is the schematic:  Mains in > fuse > [ x2 cap > cmc > more caps > outlet ]   put as many of the [ ]'s that you want outlets in parrallel.


Hi It has been sime time now. Is it still in this "project phase?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 26 Jan 2008, 06:13 pm
The lastest form I'm aware of is to use 3 - 2X caps fore and aft of the cmc's, usually 1.0, .1 and .01Uf.  As for the cmc's, I believe that the one Occam has been using with great success is the Miller 17a unit here (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?FS=TRUE&Ntt=*miller*+*choke*&Ne=688513&N=1525883+4294923652+1323038&Ntx=mode%2bmatchall&Ns=P_SField&OriginalKeyword=miller+choke&Ntk=Mouser_Wildcards) though I've been  using the 10a and 3a versions of the Coilcraft cmc's that I stumbled across while goggling some time ago here (http://www.coilcraft.com/comoco.cfm) 

Although pricey, (in a Felixy sense) I really like these extruded boxes, especially when building two circuits in series as I'm prone to do here (http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=68)

I just picked up one of these jobbies to install in Natureboy's Felixes to better fit his amp/cable system... here (http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=627-0005&SEARCH=&MPN=HBL5279C&DESC=HBL5279C&R=627%2D0005&sid=47743C807587E17F)

HTH!



Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 26 Jan 2008, 07:05 pm
DOS,

Paul gave me a pair of CMCs to play with.  We haven't experimented with size (uH) to know what works best, or even what value caps work best. It looks as though the Adept uses a plethora of varying sized caps. Who knows what size cmc they used.  We need to experiment, hence the word "project". 

Here is the schematic:  Mains in > fuse > [ x2 cap > cmc > more caps > outlet ]   put as many of the [ ]'s that you want outlets in parrallel.


Hi It has been sime time now. Is it still in this "project phase?

I think you have too much faith in my ability to get things done.  I am just not that tweaky by nature, so I am not going to substitute a lot of different cap values and listen for what is best.  I'd much rather have some measure equipment that would allow me to look at the Q of the filter, among other things and play around with values until I got a few different combos that looked good and listen to the differences of the few configurations to see what looks best to garner some relationship to how sound and that measurement relate and proceed from there.  But I don't have such test equipment, so I used some cascade of cap values that seemed to make some sense, based on recommendations Paul made and through it together.  The results were pretty positive so I stuck with it.

Now ideally you will need to experiment with cap values for each piece of equipment you have and find an optimal solution for that component.  This is because the filters are dependent on current, the load, etc.  I don't think I have that much patience.  When I finish building some of the components I go going, I might be more willing to setup a bunch of parrallel Felix's in my PC box and wire a multi deck switch to switch between and compare, but I kinda doubt that will be in this year or next.

I built a Felix into my SB PSU and a Felix into my Aikido PSU but have done no optimization, nor any a/b listening.  It is just on faith from prior experience that I believe it works well.  But I have bigger fish to fry in my system for now....

Kyrill....I'd suggest you pick up appropriate caps (like a cascade of .47, .047, .01, or 1, .1, .01 for both before and after) and some of the mentioned chokes and build it.  I think you'll really like the "generic" Felix and it just may inspire you to experiment yourself.  That would really be what is needed, as we can experiment for our case, but not for yours. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 26 Jan 2008, 08:45 pm
hi
Why so "modest" with the cap values? If I interpret next image well enough may i assume the higher the value the lower the freq will be passed on by the capacitor? According to graph even with 2,2uF it effects "only" frequencies above 500khz. So all dirty frqs lower than that are not affected by this cap and are still on the power line. Values of.47uF only effects 1.3MHz and higher..? Or i likely misinterpret the figure..

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13342)

Not possible to clean a broadband spectrum starting 1khz and up?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 26 Jan 2008, 09:22 pm
Then you start introducing phase shifts down into a freq that may affect audio frequencies. Its all a balancing act as I understand it.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 26 Jan 2008, 09:52 pm
Was it somewhere on AudioCircle someone posted the amount of power usage from having bypassed capacitors, because they always use some? This might be a reason why when you build your own equipment it could be wise to add a Felix inside of it so the power switch is inline before it is. Unfortunately that is not always convenient  for everyone, including myself, as the only things I have made on my own might require bigger boxes.

Also how do you think arranging different capacitors would make sense? Would you want some 1.0uf big guys on the AC in side of the CMCs? Then have say some .01uf on the sockets themselves? What kind of noise is likely to get past the CMCs, or induced by them?

I looked at some PDFs of some CMCs and it to me it would just make sense to target everything with some bigger 1.0uf or even more.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Bill A on 27 Jan 2008, 03:37 pm
Kyrill

I think what the plot shows is the self resonance of that style capacitor in different sizes.  The capacitor model being a series RLC circuit.  Below resonance the capacitor is "capacitive", at resonance where XC=XL, it is just resistive, and above, it is no longer capacitive but inductive.

Use the capacitor at frequencies below the resonant dip.

Bill A
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 27 Jan 2008, 04:07 pm
o-o Bill now you 've caught me

suppose i take the 1 uF cap  seeing the graph, where can i see or determine from its "resonance dip"?
and which frq range it is useful for ( according to the graph?)

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 27 Jan 2008, 07:36 pm
Kyrill

I think what the plot shows is the self resonance of that style capacitor in different sizes.  The capacitor model being a series RLC circuit.  Below resonance the capacitor is "capacitive", at resonance where XC=XL, it is just resistive, and above, it is no longer capacitive but inductive.

Use the capacitor at frequencies below the resonant dip.

Bill A

That would mean I would need .01 and larger if I was using the Q-4018-A right, and say .015 or larger for the Q-4007-A correct? Would it be best to go just barely under to get the most benefit?


http://www.coilcraft.com/comoco.cfm
http://www.coilcraft.com/pdfs/comoco.pdf

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Bill A on 28 Jan 2008, 05:55 am
Kyrill

It looks like the 1uf cap resonance dip occurs at 1Mhz so it should be useful below that.  How close to 1Mhz can the capacitor operate and still have useful capacitance? I don't know the answer to that. 

DoS

Power line filtering is new to me so I really don't have a recomendation for cap values to use.  This design guide http://www.coilcraft.com/pdfs/doc191_CMFiltDesign.pdf  (http://www.coilcraft.com/pdfs/doc191_CMFiltDesign.pdf) may give you some help.  In the example they used 50 ohms as an impedance value.  I don't have a clue about practical impedance values, but 50 ohms seems high to me.

One thing I did notice in this guide is the Q of the filter and the possibility of actually emphasizing a particular frequency near the cutoff when the filter had a high Q.  Not suprising, but that is something that may not have been thought about and could cause the filter to ring or oscillate. 

I would just use values recommended by others and maybe do some before and after measurements with an o'scope, if you have one, to see what effect you are getting.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: PromitheusAudio on 28 Jan 2008, 08:06 am
Just like to add some input to your project
CMC common mode choke are made from 2 opposite winding wires wound on a toroid core or something like that
Different cores would have different frequency range that it can handle

So for the most effective way to deal thru out the audio band is to get multiple CMC but make sure they are different core material

Iron core powder or something along this line made by roxbury is good from 50hz to 440hz as per their data sheet. I don't think there is much material that covers 500hz to 5Khz. I may not be aware of it but above the the 5khz there is alot of materials that can be found. Ferrites, permalloy and etc. You can check their data sheet of the material of the ferrite and check their impedance to see which zone they are filtering in

Perhaps one way to do filtering via CMC in the audio range is to wind it on a double bobbin and filled up with EI core material or C-core using thin lamination like z11 or m6 minimum. I know the Z11/m6 would be able to work well in the audio range

Best way to experiment for best filtering is to wind your own CMC choke. Its a no brainer anyway. The wires need to be Insulated to 180 Celcius or double insulated type, wind them in opposite directions and thats all. Find surpluss core material for various frequency filtering

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 29 Jan 2008, 02:08 am
...
So for the most effective way to deal thru out the audio band is to get multiple CMC but make sure they are different core material

Iron core powder or something along this line made by roxbury is good from 50hz to 440hz as per their data sheet. I don't think there is much material that covers 500hz to 5Khz. I may not be aware of it but above the the 5khz there is alot of materials that can be found. Ferrites, permalloy and etc. You can check their data sheet of the material of the ferrite and check their impedance to see which zone they are filtering in

Perhaps one way to do filtering via CMC in the audio range is to wind it on a double bobbin and filled up with EI core material or C-core using thin lamination like z11 or m6 minimum. I know the Z11/m6 would be able to work well in the audio range

Best way to experiment for best filtering is to wind your own CMC choke. Its a no brainer anyway. The wires need to be Insulated to 180 Celcius or double insulated type, wind them in opposite directions and thats all. Find surpluss core material for various frequency filtering

Ummmm.... you might actually consider reading the PDF specifications of the CMCs already mentioned.
Winding your own CMCs certainly is a no brainer, but not in the sense I assume you mean.  The chokes discussed are <$10ea. and perform quite admirably. I don't understand why you find it necessary to obfuscate a straightforward build, with a method I can only describe as throwing crap up against a wall to see what sticks. Certainly, multistage filters are an excellent method for filtering. But they are obviously more complicated that a single inductive element filter. Designing a filter requires an understanding of core characteristics, filter calculations, specifically, how the ratio of inductance (both common and differential) to capacitance, along with load, effect the poles, and actual shape of the attenuation characteristic.

A Felix can be built for less than $30, all in, and is quite competitive with many audiophile filters. It can certainly be improved upon, but typically not by the methodology you advocate.

When and if you build that c-core based, laminated stack CMC(s) based filter, I'm sure we'd all be interested in seeing some hard data. Its going to usefully filter from line frequency on up? This I gotta see.....

FWIW
Title: Re: Felix meets the Squeezebox
Post by: StuntHunt on 4 Feb 2008, 06:40 pm
As a newbie, I offer a most gracious thank you to all of you tech meisters who are so free with your time and advice! :thumb:  I've been reading posts for some time, but I finally became a member today.  

My cousin, BobM, is known to some of you, and he's been giving me quite a bit of encouragement and coaching in the fine art of DIY tweaking.  First Belden 89259 cables/interconnects, and then some speaker crossover mods to put some snap into my Kef Ref 4s (Thanks Bob).  

I'll be building one (or more) of these Felix PCs in the near future, and I'm looking forward to that and more. This is all great info. This has probably been covered elsewhere, but can this Felix design be adapted to handle higher currents (like for a 200 W/ch power amp)? Thanks again guys.  
Title: Re: Felix meets the Squeezebox
Post by: Gordy on 5 Feb 2008, 12:22 am
Can this Felix design be adapted to handle higher currents (like for a 200 W/ch power amp)? Thanks again guys. 

Welcome to AC ShuntHunt!  I've 10a Coilcraft Felix's built into each of my monoblock amps as my transformers pull about 5a max each.  The size of your ps will determine whether you need to go to a 17a Miller or not but, if it's a stereo 200w amp, it would probably be best.
 
About a year ago I built a rig using 3 - 4pdt NKK switches to compare two 10a Felix's verses no Felix and to compare 5 sizes of caps in different configurations from 3 manufacturers, Vishay,  PBB and Epcos.  The cap sizes were 2.2, 1.0, .47, .1 and .01Uf.  This was all set up so I could seamlessly switch caps/brands from my listening chair.  Both a bridged 3886 chip amp and a Modwright 9.0 preamp were being feed by the Felix's.  After maybe three weeks of swapping caps out I decided that no particular combo really stood out as better to my ears and in my location.  Different but, not better.  I concluded, perhaps wrongly, that the coils were doing 90-95% of the filtering and the caps were doing the supplemental polishing and I've built my filters accordingly ever since, for the most part .47, .1 and .01 chosen for practicality only.

I decided not to use the PBB's because of practical reasons as well, the .47 cap was easily twice the size of the Vishay 2.2 cap, that simply didn't fit with my plans for building Felix's into chassis's and way too small boxes  :roll: 

A month later my girlfriend decided she simply had to have her forced air negative ion generator in her living room.  About 7 minutes later I got a phone call complaining about the static noise coming from her speakers.  It was bad!  I'm just guessing here but, if the music was playing at 75db, the static was only 10dB below it and in the 200-400hz range?  I installed a 10a Felix into the system (a 45w chip amp, tuner  and dvdp) and that seemed to knock down the noise by about 20-30dB or so but it was still there.  I went home and grabbed another Felix and installed it in series, the static was then barely perceptible.  Interestingly, when I moved both Felix's to feed the neg. ion generator it did an even better job.  Again, I've been building most of my Felix's as doubles ever since.  The concept was kinda proven also when I got a look at how the Isotek Nova units were built, basically a double Felix feeding a series of double Felix's each feeding an individual receptacle.

Doesn't virtually every DVDP have a SMPS in it as well?   8)




Title: Re: Felix meets the Squeezebox
Post by: randytsuch on 5 Feb 2008, 03:26 am
Can this Felix design be adapted to handle higher currents (like for a 200 W/ch power amp)? Thanks again guys. 

Welcome to AC ShuntHunt!  I've 10a Coilcraft Felix's built into each of my monoblock amps as my transformers pull about 5a max each.  The size of your ps will determine whether you need to go to a 17a Miller or not but, if it's a stereo 200w amp, it would probably be best.
 
About a year ago I built a rig using 3 - 4pdt NKK switches to compare two 10a Felix's verses no Felix and to compare 5 sizes of caps in different configurations from 3 manufacturers, Vishay,  PBB and Epcos.  The cap sizes were 2.2, 1.0, .47, .1 and .01Uf.  This was all set up so I could seamlessly switch caps/brands from my listening chair.  Both a bridged 3886 chip amp and a Modwright 9.0 preamp were being feed by the Felix's.  After maybe three weeks of swapping caps out I decided that no particular combo really stood out as better to my ears and in my location.  Different but, not better.  I concluded, perhaps wrongly, that the coils were doing 90-95% of the filtering and the caps were doing the supplemental polishing and I've built my filters accordingly ever since, for the most part .47, .1 and .01 chosen for practicality only.

I decided not to use the PBB's because of practical reasons as well, the .47 cap was easily twice the size of the Vishay 2.2 cap, that simply didn't fit with my plans for building Felix's into chassis's and way too small boxes  :roll: 

A month later my girlfriend decided she simply had to have her forced air negative ion generator in her living room.  About 7 minutes later I got a phone call complaining about the static noise coming from her speakers.  It was bad!  I'm just guessing here but, if the music was playing at 75db, the static was only 10dB below it and in the 200-400hz range?  I installed a 10a Felix into the system (a 45w chip amp, tuner  and dvdp) and that seemed to knock down the noise by about 20-30dB or so but it was still there.  I went home and grabbed another Felix and installed it in series, the static was then barely perceptible.  Interestingly, when I moved both Felix's to feed the neg. ion generator it did an even better job.  Again, I've been building most of my Felix's as doubles ever since.  The concept was kinda proven also when I got a look at how the Isotek Nova units were built, basically a double Felix feeding a series of double Felix's each feeding an individual receptacle.

Doesn't virtually every DVDP have a SMPS in it as well?   8)



Hey Gordy
So, for these double Felix's, do you make them
C network - CMC - C network - CMC - C network

Based on the rest of your post, this might be overkill with caps, so you could also remove the middle C network, but then it would seem like you are just using a CMC that is twice as big.

BTW, I had been working on a squeezebox project, stealing much from Mgalusha projects.

I was planning to put a Felicia in it, put am now wondering if a Felix would be as good.  It would make it much lighter, and save some space inside.  I have enough room for the Felicia, but it is getting a little tight in there because I have a bunch of other stuff.

Randy
Title: Re: Felix meets the Squeezebox
Post by: Gordy on 5 Feb 2008, 04:16 am

So, for these double Felix's, do you make them
C network - CMC - C network - CMC - C network


Hi Randy, yes I'm using all 3 c networks, though in one case I only used the .47 in the middle position, that being Natureboy/Roger's original Felix.  Some time ago we did a comparo with his front end equipment using the double 10a Felix for his dvdp, preamp and phono amp vs. three individual Felicia's and Roger prefered the Felicia's ever slightly softer presentation to the Felix's more truthful presentation (my words!) where I felt just the opposite. 

Are you using a linear supply for the SB?  It'd be very cool if you could try both before committing!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 5 Feb 2008, 04:39 am
Ok so a couple of questions...

The changes after the CMC, what is more likely to occur, higher or lower frequencies? It seems to me their should be a science behind all of this...

My thoughts go like this from what I have seen, and that is introduce a 1.0-1.5uf (for 10 amp CMC) right off of your inlet, perhaps a breaker if you have one in between. It would seem overkill to have one for each CMC to me. Then run to the CMC's, I was only thinking 1 per socket at 10amp should be enough unless you know your stuff is going to take more, in which case you are going to need to route power special from your fuse box, and use special 20amp receptacles and plugs. I figured 10amp was sort of a safe way to go, as you might have per say like a couple of .5ma-3amp devices and one larger one. I would still thinking running a special dedicated line would be wisest, and if you know you are going to drain 20amps you need the special turned blade receptacle and plugs. The have after the cmc some direct capacitors across the receptacles you are using themselves. The thing with them is if I am not mistaken you have room for wires AND capacitors in separate holes (the secondary one for capacitors might require a little copper wire to be pushed over the capacitor leads, or solder the capacitor leads to them and stick them in the socket, depending on the capacitor of course). Now my debate would be what type of capacitor to use after the CMC. You have already got rid of a lot with the 1.0-1.5uf, what possible introduction or things after the CMC would arise, should tell us what size to use weather it be .47 or .1uf, whatever.

If you have too many capacitors, like plethoras of them, you will eat a lot of power even when nothing is on. I see no reason to waste any if you can help it. I think it might even be appropriate to use a switch to turn off things that do not need any power when off, unlike a Squeezebox. You could use the breaker but you might need say one bypass socket?

Another questions, breaker or fuse/s?
Title: Re: Felix meets the Squeezebox
Post by: randytsuch on 5 Feb 2008, 05:31 am

Hi Randy, yes I'm using all 3 c networks, though in one case I only used the .47 in the middle position, that being Natureboy/Roger's original Felix.  Some time ago we did a comparo with his front end equipment using the double 10a Felix for his dvdp, preamp and phono amp vs. three individual Felicia's and Roger prefered the Felicia's ever slightly softer presentation to the Felix's more truthful presentation (my words!) where I felt just the opposite. 

Are you using a linear supply for the SB?  It'd be very cool if you could try both before committing!


Hi Gordy,
So, as with many things audio, comes down to preferences.
Although I would like to do a comparision, I know myself better than to commit to one.  This project is taking long enough without adding this to it, think I started late fall  :roll:.
The problem is, I am putting the SB, along with a burson buffer, in this case.  I was also going to put in my Twisted pair DAC in it, as I eventually want to go balanced.

So, I will have 4 regulators and a transformer just for the bursons, then another huge, surplus transformer for everything else.  I am going to generate 5VDC to drive the display, another 5VDC to drive the SB.  Also going to generate a 5VDC and 3.3 VDC to power the DAC in the SB.  Most of these will be "teddy" regulators, expect the 3.3 VDC for the DAC, it's a shunt reg.

Problem is, if I put in the Felicia, I have to allocate enough space for it, where the Felix takes much less space.  I am also installing an internal divider, to seperate the magnetics from everything else.  Am thinking of lining the divider with some kind of mu metal, or steel/iron, something that will keep the magnetic fields out of the rest of the box.

End of thread hijacking.

DOS,
Yes, dedicated line is the way to go, but it can be expensive.  In most case, I think they will have to break into walls to add them, so then you have to drywall and paint after.

As for adding caps to outlets (which I think is what you are talking about), there are issues, like insurance problems if anything happens.  I am lucky enough to have a nice house, so I am worried about potential problems if anything bad happens.  So, I have decided not to do anything that involves outlets, other than changing them out for better ones.  To me, the price of a few caps to add to each component is cheap for the piece of mind, but everyone is under different circumstances.  But, it is something to consider, when diy'ing that involves AC.

At some point, I want to add a circuit breaker with AFCI (arc fault protection) into my audio power, I already have a GFI outlet in series with it.  Probably won't do the sound any good, but it helps my piece of mind.

End of 2nd thread jack.  :D

Randy

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 5 Feb 2008, 07:11 am
Actually I am talking about capacitors inside of the box that has AC receptacles that you are using as a "Felix box". Basically it is a power filter box...

Dedicated lines can be run in cord form, instead of through wall, if need be/allowed (domestic issues).

X2 capacitors are suppose to be within law tolerances to work in AC situations like with a "Felix box" I think is the point is it not?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: samplesj on 5 Feb 2008, 01:31 pm
Dedicated lines can be run in cord form, instead of through wall, if need be/allowed (domestic issues).
What in the world are you talking about?

Do you mean something on the wall in armored cable (like you see in a basement/garage)?

Or do you mean extension cords?  Do you realize the gauge you'd need for any decent length 20amp extension cord?


Neither solution is that pretty.  As far as sheetrock cutting goes, just do it.  After the first few cuts/patches you get the hang of it.  Sometimes you even get lucky enough to not need to patch/repaint anything (if you've got a crawlspace/basement).
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 5 Feb 2008, 03:14 pm
......
If you have too many capacitors, like plethoras of them, you will eat a lot of power even when nothing is on. I see no reason to waste any if you can help it. I think it might even be appropriate to use a switch to turn off things that do not need any power when off, unlike a Squeezebox...
Nope. The reactive component (capacitive and inductive) of impedance doesn't work that way. It doesn't dissipate energy. The resistive component (esr in caps and inductors) and resistors themselves do dissipate energy in the form of heat. If your across the line caps, X type or motor runs, are getting really hot, you're using the wrong caps. Some power conditioners use > 60uf comprised or >100 caps across the line, and don't get warm. Google and Wikipedia are a good place to explore this. Better yet, a text on basic analog electronics from your own college's library.

Quote
Another questions, breaker or fuse/s?
Yes. :?  I don't mean to be obtuse, and while a magneto-hydraulic breaker, as used in some of the more bespoke conditioners, might be ideal, they're quite expensive >$60ea. A thermal breaker or fuse will both work well.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 6 Feb 2008, 12:16 am
I haven't followed this thread closely, so forgive a couple of dumb questions.

From taking a few of my own items apart, and seeing innards online, it seems like most AV power filtering units use a combination of chokes and caps to do their filtering work.  Is this project just about building your own and what parts to pick, or is there something more novel here that I'm missing? 

Here's another example of choke/cap innards.  This one happens to be a PureAV PF60, but I think the comparable Monster product looks very similar inside:

(http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/rv/s/f/1164293595.jpg)

Of course, it has MOVs, relays for delayed power and a control board for the relays and other features (like the voltage/current display).
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 6 Feb 2008, 04:51 am
Brad,

I can't speak to the Belkin conditioner, but I do have a Monster HTS 3500 Mk II. It has a similarly sophisticated multi stage independent filter architecture. I wonder why with this complex implementation, its performance is IMO, so mediocre in comparison to a Felix. I can take a single filter Felix and outperform my Monster (in my system). Dunno why. [Please, for those who love their Belkins/Monsters whatever, I've no doubt that they're just the cat's pajamas in your system] If I had to take a WAG, I'd hazard that their inductive elements are mediocre, at best. They also don't use bypass capacitors. I'll certainly admit that these commercial boxes look very impressive both inside and out. I use my Monster as a big powerbar that will hopefully provide surge protection via its multitude of varistors. I does improve my video system a bit. Realize that a substantial portion of its build cost is devoted to surge protection, sequential turn on, a spiffy meter, and a really well finished chassis. I certainly couldn't build anything near that complexity or features for anywhere near their street prices, or their retail list prices, for that matter. And building a multi independent filter Felix is going to run at least $25/independent filter, and that's using cheesy (RadioShack) chassis. In reality, if a commercial product were built with the Felix recommended components, put in a reasonable chassis, it would retail for substantially more than the Monster/Belkin type products, even without the bells and whistles they offer. Why do think power conditioning products from Blue Circle, Audience, Running Springs, etc... are so dang expensive? I don't believe economy of scale accounts for all of the disparity.

FWIW,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 6 Feb 2008, 05:12 am
I certainly understand the differences in features and money into components, I just wanted to make sure I understood that the filtering concepts in use are the same and I wasn't missing something with the Felix design.  Clearly one can build a Felix with multiple levels of caps, select chokes, etc while skipping the bells and whistles of the Belkin/Monster.  FWIW, my Tripplite Isobar is similar to the filter/MOV section of the Belkin/Monster. 

I guess I was partially curious if I missed something since people seemed to get excited with who thought of what piece and I said to myself "Who thought of what?  Isn't this the approach most power filtering products use?"  Not to belittle the project, just that I wasn't sure if I missed something special. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 6 Feb 2008, 04:31 pm
I used to have a Monster 2500 I think.  It has delayed turn on and switched outlets that follow other outlets, which is incredibly nice if you are using a pre/pro that has remote off but the rest of your gear doesn't as you can plug the pre/pro into the control outlet and when you turn it off, the rest of your gear will also be turned off.   A very nice feature.

I sold my Monster, prior to becoming a diy'er, because I had upgraditis.  I have often wanted to take one of these full featured PC's and rip one of their filters out and replace it with a Felix and then compare to a raw Felix and one of the stock filters.  If the rest of the "features" didn't degrade the Felix's performance then that might make a really nice platform for a full featured and efficacious PC.

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 6 Feb 2008, 04:40 pm
In that inductor shown in the PureAC, I only see two leads, which makes me think it is a standard inductor not a CMC.  Am I just not seeing the other two leads?  It seems that one of those PureAC units would be easy enough to mod.   

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Martyn on 6 Feb 2008, 05:21 pm
This looks like a worthwhile project that a non-EE such as myself can be pretty sure of completing successfully. At the risk of blurring this thread slightly with the Felix/SB thread, since I'm using an SB3 straight into an AKSA 100+N power amp, should I build a single Felix as per Occam's 17A choke and run both the SB and AKSA from that, or should I build two Felixes - Gary's lower current version for the SB and Occam's for the AKSA? Thanks for your patience with these kinds of questions,

Martyn
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 6 Feb 2008, 05:54 pm
lol do i dare to post in such a heavy loaded EE topic?
as a non EE i would recommend 2, especially as the SB3 is a digital device
I suppose the filter works 2 way
it may isolate in a way the digital gremlins from the SB3  away from the analogue line?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 6 Feb 2008, 07:19 pm
Martyn,

I'd go with kyrill's suggestion - horses for courses
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 6 Feb 2008, 07:34 pm
Hi Paul,

What is your suggestion of the Felix for any DAC and/or preamp? I am planning to build one Felix for the Promitheus DAC and another one for Promitheus Apollo preamp. Is it possible to build a Felix for a tube amp too? Thanks in advance.

Tan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Martyn on 6 Feb 2008, 08:19 pm
Thanks. Although it seems quite logical to me that a single unit capable of handling the combined current draw should suffice, I had a nagging feeling that the filter characteristics might be different.

I assume that there would be no problem with housing both units in a single box and connecting them in parallel to a single 120V wall outlet?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 6 Feb 2008, 08:31 pm
I assume that there would be no problem with housing both units in a single box and connecting them in parallel to a single 120V wall outlet?

An elegant solution, Martyn, and that's how the high brow units like Audience, Running Springs and Isotek are built.  Of course, they parallel 4, 5, even 6 receptacles.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jhm731 on 6 Feb 2008, 09:04 pm
I assume that there would be no problem with housing both units in a single box and connecting them in parallel to a single 120V wall outlet?

Why not install the Felix inside your amp, then you don't need to waste money on an AC outlet.

For the SB, you could take the wall wart apart and house it and the Felix in a box, hard wire an AC power cord to
it and eliminate another AC outlet.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 6 Feb 2008, 10:36 pm
In that inductor shown in the PureAC, I only see two leads, which makes me think it is a standard inductor not a CMC.  Am I just not seeing the other two leads?  It seems that one of those PureAC units would be easy enough to mod.   

I don't know - I don't own one and was just using the image as an example.  You might be right, they might not be CMC's. 

I'm putting together a Mouser order anyway, so maybe I'll try a Felix.  It looks like Mouser doesn't stock the 8100 series, but they do stock the 7100 series (similar, but rated at <=5A). 

Are most folks using polypropylene caps or polyester?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 6 Feb 2008, 10:54 pm
Quote
Are most folks using polypropylene caps or polyester?

Hi Brad,

I believe they are Vishay film caps. Here is the link from Gary (GBB) to find parts at digikey:

Quote
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50284.0

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 6 Feb 2008, 11:06 pm
I believe they are Vishay film caps. Here is the link from Gary (GBB) to find parts at digikey:

Quote
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50284.0

Thanks for the link - it looks like he's using polypropylene.  Vishay X2 film caps come in both polypropylene and polyester. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 6 Feb 2008, 11:10 pm
Quote
It looks like Mouser doesn't stock the 8100 series, but they do stock the 7100 series (similar, but rated at <=5A). 

Brad,

Here is another link you can get JW8120 at Newark (it is cheaper):

Quote
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=63K4088&CMP=AFC-TL10000001
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 7 Feb 2008, 12:08 am
Brad,

Here is another link you can get JW8120 at Newark (it is cheaper):

Thanks - I saw them on Newark.  I just already have a Mouser order building, so I thought I'd see if I could just throw a few items into the cart. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Martyn on 7 Feb 2008, 04:02 am
Thanks, Gordy, I was thinking of adding a third line in case I should ever want to add a Transporter (which I assume would draw more than an SB) or an external DAC.

...and thanks jhm, but there's not enough room in the amp's chassis (see http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=933&pos=1 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=933&pos=1)). I like the idea of putting the wall-wart inside the box. I'll give this some more thought...

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: StuntHunt on 10 Feb 2008, 12:33 pm
I'm about to embark on my first Felix.  Thanks, Gary, for posting the parts info.  That was a great help.  As a newbie, I'm still learning my concepts.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I understand it, the Felix does this: the cascading caps filter the "noise" out of the power supply, each value cap handling different frequencies.  The CMC smoothes out the power, and the second group of caps further filters the noise, providing your audio system with very clean power.  The amount of current the Felix can handle depends on the value of the CMC (and your main fuse).

I intend to build two parellel Felix's, one for my McCormack DNA1 Rev. A power amp (which draws 175 watts at idle, and 600 watts at full throttle), and one for the components.

I'm planning on installing a 10a breaker on the mains, and 1a fast blo fuses dedicated to each group of caps.  Just to be safer (can't have enough of that), I'll run all this off a GFI outlet.

All the electrical parts are available from Digikey, including the JW Miller 8120-RC 17a Common Mode Choke  ($12 ea.).  The caps are 1uf ($3.29 ea), 0.1uf ($.77 ea), and 0.01uf ($.77 ea).  That, plus a suitable box (still looking) and misc. fuse holders/wiring/plugs/outlets, and I'm ready to go. :D

If I'm missing something here, any and all advice is most welcome!


Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 10 Feb 2008, 01:40 pm
I've been using these Heeger extruded aluminum cases http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=68  for various projects and love 'em.  The EAS-400 is plenty large for two Felix's if you're using cords for your outlets, otherwise the EAS-500 will fit a double receptacle on the end cap.  For inexpensive cases, Rat Shack carries at least three project boxes that'll work!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 11 Feb 2008, 04:38 am
I was thinking that the Felix is a super-simple PCB idea.  I'm not sure if the small volume would bring the costs down enough to make it worthwhile, but it would make mounting easy.  Here's a quick first pass at one using ExpressPCB:

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/Felix1.JPG)

This one is based on the Vishay 1778 X2 caps and the Coilcraft Combination CMC, but I just did a revision that also has pads for the JW Miller 8109-8121. 

Looks like costs would be ~$10 each for 20+ from ExpressPCB. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 11 Feb 2008, 04:48 am
I was thinking that the Felix is a super-simple PCB idea.  I'm not sure if the small volume would bring the costs down enough to make it worthwhile, but it would make mounting easy.  Here's a quick first pass at one using ExpressPCB:

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/Felix1.JPG)

This one is based on the Vishay 1778 X2 caps and the Coilcraft Combination CMC, but I just did a revision that also has pads for the JW Miller 8109-8121. 

Looks like costs would be ~$10 each for 20+ from ExpressPCB. 

Hi Brad,

Why don't you start a group buy? I guess there will be a lot of AC member would like to purchase it too.

Would you count me in with eight(8) Felix mounted PCBs? Thanks.

Tan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 11 Feb 2008, 07:07 am
i would order 10
and silverplated would be nice
can those paths carry 2A?

doesn't it need 4 holes in the corner? That would help me
thx for the initiative
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BRN on 11 Feb 2008, 08:40 am
That is a great idea. I built a box with three Felixs in it and a board like this would make the project so easy to build. I just got some Coilcraft Combination CMC and could use these boards. I could use at least 6 boards.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 11 Feb 2008, 10:59 am
Very nice!  In a perfect world the .01Uf caps would be located as close as possible to the cmc's though, on the underside perhaps?

Gordy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 11 Feb 2008, 02:10 pm
i would order 10
and silverplated would be nice
can those paths carry 2A?

doesn't it need 4 holes in the corner? That would help me

The ExpressPCB guidance says a 0.150" trace will handle 6A and these are 0.250" traces, so they should handle ~10A.  Still not appropriate for a full 15-20A implementation, but it's the largest trace they will do.

Yes, I need to add mounting holes to the design. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 11 Feb 2008, 02:11 pm
Very nice!  In a perfect world the .01Uf caps would be located as close as possible to the cmc's though, on the underside perhaps?

I can certainly start by reversing the order of the caps so the 0.01uF's are closest to the CMC. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 11 Feb 2008, 02:14 pm
It also occurred to me that if implementing a multi-outlet box is a common approach, a second input can be added to the H and N lines for daisy-chaining.  Are many expected to implement a multi-outlet box and want daisy-chaining?  Of course, this might be too much current for the bridge trace on the first board (sum of the current of the rest of the boards). 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 11 Feb 2008, 02:21 pm
i dont use daisy chaining
i think dedicated seperated lines are better sounding
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mgalusha on 11 Feb 2008, 02:47 pm
Nice Brad. You can actually get both the .01 and .1 caps under the edge of the CMC, at least with the small 3A model. I built a second one yesterday and took a photo of this. I'll post it when I get home and download it from the camera.

I'd likely take some of these as well.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 11 Feb 2008, 04:03 pm
Just an observation...

Can you spot the two other Felix's?

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13533)

Different configuration for different purposes, but same topology and same idea.  Just more inspiration for how to effectively use the Felix concept in DIY for filtering. 

Here we are filtering DC and the big guy is meant to filter much lower in frequency (120hz). 

Credit:  This is Thoersten's DRD amp supply schematic. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 11 Feb 2008, 06:32 pm
FYI: I realized this morning that my spacing was all messed up for the CMC and the 1.0uF cap, so I'll have a new one posted tonight.  The lead spacing was correct, but I didn't leave enough room for the part itself - classic rookie PCB design mistake.  :)

Some questions for the group:

To what degree should other sizes of caps be accommodated?  The current layout handles Vishay 1.0, 0.1 and 0.01 uF caps.  To a certain degree other values in the Vishay line will fit, but some will not.  For example, I don't think the 0.47uF one fits in the current largest cap position.  Is there another major brand of X2 that needs to be accommodated? (I looked at Wima, but no one seems to stock their X2's). 

It looks like I can fit pads for both the CoilCraft combo and JW Miller 8100 series, which seem to be the two popular options.  I'm willing to say that's sufficiently flexible - agreed?  CoilCraft also makes an equivalent to the JW 8100, but I haven't seen anyone use it here.

Ground line: is it needed or does it make the board wider for no reason?  Having a straight ground trace makes installs look cleaner, but doesn't serve a functional purpose.  Should it stay?

Optional fuse mount - Is it worth squeezing in a mount point for an option fuse on the board?  If so, what are your preferences on type?  I haven't tried this yet, so I don't know if it will be a pain to fit in.

Particular board size - should the design be made to a particular board size to allow using a particular case with rails (e.g. extruded aluminum options like the Hammond 1455)? 

My prior question: Is an additional step of input side points for H and N worth doing to accommodate daisy-chaining?  Or does this just set up the design to have current overload issues.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 11 Feb 2008, 06:57 pm
FYI: I realized this morning that my spacing was all messed up for the CMC and the 1.0uF cap, so I'll have a new one posted tonight.  The lead spacing was correct, but I didn't leave enough room for the part itself - classic rookie PCB design mistake.  :)

Some questions for the group:

To what degree should other sizes of caps be accommodated?  The current layout handles Vishay 1.0, 0.1 and 0.01 uF caps.  To a certain degree other values in the Vishay line will fit, but some will not.  For example, I don't think the 0.47uF one fits in the current largest cap position.  Is there another major brand of X2 that needs to be accommodated? (I looked at Wima, but no one seems to stock their X2's). 

It looks like I can fit pads for both the CoilCraft combo and JW Miller 8100 series, which seem to be the two popular options.  I'm willing to say that's sufficiently flexible - agreed?  CoilCraft also makes an equivalent to the JW 8100, but I haven't seen anyone use it here.

Ground line: is it needed or does it make the board wider for no reason?  Having a straight ground trace makes installs look cleaner, but doesn't serve a functional purpose.  Should it stay?

Optional fuse mount - Is it worth squeezing in a mount point for an option fuse on the board?  If so, what are your preferences on type?  I haven't tried this yet, so I don't know if it will be a pain to fit in. I would be very happy with this

Particular board size - should the design be made to a particular board size to allow using a particular case with rails (e.g. extruded aluminum options like the Hammond 1455)?  yes this would be nice (for me) if it will perfectly fit a standard shielded case


My prior question: Is an additional step of input side points for H and N worth doing to accommodate daisy-chaining?  Or does this just set up the design to have current overload issues.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 11 Feb 2008, 07:30 pm
Hi Brad,

I built the first Felix with soldering the Coilcraft and Vishay 2x (1.0, 0.1 and 0.01) film caps on a small pcb then I screwed them down to the aluminum box. The fuse is attached to the box. It is a hard work in the beginning but it was fun and happy when I got an excellent result.  It works better than the Equitech PC I own before. :thumb:

Tan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 11 Feb 2008, 07:31 pm
My $.02...fwiw and all that...

To what degree should other sizes of caps be accommodated?  The current layout handles Vishay 1.0, 0.1 and 0.01 uF caps.  To a certain degree other values in the Vishay line will fit, but some will not.  For example, I don't think the 0.47uF one fits in the current largest cap position.  Is there another major brand of X2 that needs to be accommodated? (I looked at Wima, but no one seems to stock their X2's). 
Depends on how easy it is.  Otherwise stick with the Vishay, or you could provide one extra set of pads to accomodate the .47 & 1.0 options.  I wouldn't go crazy unless it is easy.  Broskie on his Aikido boards provides a whole series of cap lead pads to accomodate a huge range of sizes.  I don't know if this is hard/easy and whether it changes the price so I'll leave it at that.

Quote
It looks like I can fit pads for both the CoilCraft combo and JW Miller 8100 series, which seem to be the two popular options.  I'm willing to say that's sufficiently flexible - agreed? 
Agreed.

Quote
Ground line: is it needed or does it make the board wider for no reason?  Having a straight ground trace makes installs look cleaner, but doesn't serve a functional purpose.  Should it stay?
I don't really see the need for it.  Plus, I have to imagine it is a tiny bit safer without, since you aren't likely to be as current limited with wiring.

Quote
Optional fuse mount - Is it worth squeezing in a mount point for an option fuse on the board?  If so, what are your preferences on type?  I haven't tried this yet, so I don't know if it will be a pain to fit in.
That would be a really neat thing to have on the output side of the board.  Would people need the input side as well?  I tend to use appropriate size breakers instead of fuses on the input side.

Quote
Particular board size - should the design be made to a particular board size to allow using a particular case with rails (e.g. extruded aluminum options like the Hammond 1455)?
 
I tend to fit mine into my gear directly, but I may add into a PC case I have instead. So I am not the target.  However, it would seem to be nice for those using the LMB or Hammond extrudeds.

Quote
My prior question: Is an additional step of input side points for H and N worth doing to accommodate daisy-chaining?  Or does this just set up the design to have current overload issues.
I probably wouldn't for current overload issues.  Makes people have to run seperate wiring for each which is likely safer.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BobM on 11 Feb 2008, 08:12 pm
Quote
Optional fuse mount - Is it worth squeezing in a mount point for an option fuse on the board?  If so, what are your preferences on type?  I haven't tried this yet, so I don't know if it will be a pain to fit in.
That would be a really neat thing to have on the output side of the board.  Would people need the input side as well?  I tend to use appropriate size breakers instead of fuses on the input side.

There are several ways to locate the fuses (1)  in line with each gang of caps (protecting the circuit if they fail), thereby keeping the fuse out of the primary line, or (2) on the output side of the board on each of the + and - lines, thereby having the fuses directly in the primary line. Of course using option (1) means a board change - ganging one end of the caps together into the fuse then out of the fuse to the primary line.

Not sure if my feeble attempt at describing this is clear.

Bob
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 11 Feb 2008, 10:12 pm
Quote
CoilCraft also makes an equivalent to the JW 8100, but I haven't seen anyone use it here

Paul and I both looked at the standard Coilcraft cmc's 6-8 months back and didn't care for the quality of the windings, the Miller's are definitely of a higher build quality.  I never actualy tried one though, not sure if Paul did or not. 


Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 11 Feb 2008, 10:20 pm
Quote
...the Miller's are definitely of a higher build quality.

Gordy,

Yes it is high quality since it is toroidal transformer with much less noise, is that right?

I just take a look on Newark website. Which models of JW Miller 8100 did you and Paul choose? If you chose the Miller 8120 17A would that be accepted to the application for a tube preamp and dac and/or tube amp (SET 2A3 amp) or I have to get different 8100 model? Thanks for help.

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=63K4088&CMP=AFC-TL10000001

Tan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 11 Feb 2008, 11:14 pm
Hi Tan,

I was comparing build quality of the Miller vs. the standard CC only, I've never compared them subjectively.  Once I tried the 3717/4818's I stayed with them. 

The Miller 8120's should be very good for filtering anything your 15a wall receptacle is handling, though you'll do even better using them for the amp(s) and using the 3717a's for your dac, preamp etc.  The 8120 is what Paul used in the Felix's he showed/tested with such good results at the various N.Y. Raves last year I believe.  I like using a 10a 4018 Coilcraft in each of my ~160w monoblock amps and 3717's for everything else.  Next up is a Felix for that nasty computer smps. HTH!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 12 Feb 2008, 02:04 am
Here's a second pass.  It has the pads for the JW 8100 series (two sizes) and an additional pad for the 0.47uF Vishay.  The 0.047uF is the same size as the 0.1uF, so it already fits. 

I added a temporary silkscreen that shows the footprint of the Coilcraft combo CMC as well as the footprint of the 1.0uF Vishay.  I also resized the image to be about lifesize (on my monitor).  The current board design is 5" long.

I looked at the Hammond 1455 extruded cases and this doesn't work well for sizing to fit.  In order to get one with the height clearance for the CMC (1.3" for the CoilCraft, 1.65" for the larger JW 8100), you'd have to go to a size that's at least 4" wide.  Even with the ground trace the board is only 2.4" wide. 

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/Felix3.JPG)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 12 Feb 2008, 01:47 pm
What is the dimension of the gap between the 'hot' and 'neutral' traces at 'C3'  ?
And between the "hot" trace and the mounting holes?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 12 Feb 2008, 02:07 pm
What is the dimension of the gap between the 'hot' and 'neutral' traces at 'C3'  ?
And between the "hot" trace and the mounting holes?

0.15" and 0.175" respectively.  The distance between H and the mount can be adjusted by angling it in a bit more, but I'm stuck with the C3 one unless I make the traces thinner. 

One could also use nylon screws for mounting and not worry about the corners. 

Any idea what a minimum distance for AC leads traces should be?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 12 Feb 2008, 03:00 pm
hoi when are they ready?

I need them fast :D
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 12 Feb 2008, 03:52 pm
hoi when are they ready?

I need them fast :D

To ensure they are right, I would likely order just two or three at first, along with the various supported parts.  Once I verified that everything fit right and no revisions were needed, I would then place a larger order.  I don't know how long all of that would take.

I'm hoping the community participation will help reduce any errors before the first run.

I think removing the ground trace might be a good move for the next revision, otherwise it's looking pretty good. 

I'll take a look at the fuse mount option, but the more I think about it, the more I think it should be done off-board with the user's choice of implementation.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 12 Feb 2008, 05:39 pm
Any idea what a minimum distance for AC leads traces should be?
3 mm or 0.12 inch rings a bell, but I don't remember what voltage they were using.
Maybe you could straighten the trace and add a small round pad for C3 and C4.
More clearance would be good, especially for anyone with a large isolation transformer.
Large isolation transformers have a nasty voltage kickback when a primary fuse blows and the field collapses with nowhere to go. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Martyn on 12 Feb 2008, 08:30 pm

I looked at the Hammond 1455 extruded cases and this doesn't work well for sizing to fit.  In order to get one with the height clearance for the CMC (1.3" for the CoilCraft, 1.65" for the larger JW 8100), you'd have to go to a size that's at least 4" wide.  Even with the ground trace the board is only 2.4" wide. 

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/Felix3.JPG)

Why not make the board double width so that it can take two Felixes side by side? That way users can filter their SB and amp, or pre-amp and amp, or DAC and amp, or CD player and amp, or whatever pair they choose. I would imagine that a single ground trace would be OK for two circuits (or no trace at all as has been suggested already). I'd guess that this would then fit either the 4.06" or 4.92" wide Hammond box, both of which are a touch over 2' high. This might also be slightly cheaper than buying two "single circuit" boards, and folks who want just one circuit can always trim the board to the width they want (crude, but effective).

Martyn
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: randytsuch on 12 Feb 2008, 09:00 pm
My vote would be to get rid of the ground trace.  Then, you could make the board a little thinner, and still have room to move the hot line away from the screw hole a little, to give more clearance between the screw head and hot.  Yeah, you can use nylon screws, but it would be nice to be able to use any screws.

Otherwise, I would go with what you have.  Everybody will have different uses, and different requirements, so you can't make a one size fits all.  So, go with this, it is simple enough so it can be easily adapted to most situations.  If you add stuff, or make a double one, gets more complicated, and not as many people will be able to use it.  Keep it simple.

BTW, what size screws did you make the holes for?

Randy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 12 Feb 2008, 09:21 pm
Brad,

Count me in for about 5 of these PCB's. I figure you are going to try to set up a group buy. Thanks for all your effort.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 13 Feb 2008, 04:29 am
Okay, no ground trace, a bit more spacing between the corners and leads.  I just adjusted the corner screw holes to be 0.15", which should accommodate up to #6 machine screws.  The board is 5"x2" at the moment.

I also "unlocked" the traces from the C3/C4 holes to off-set them and expand the gap between the traces to 0.25". 

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/felix4.jpg)

The number of boards ordered has a big impact on the per-board costs, so once we seem settled (I think I just need to triple-check measurements), then I'll start another thread for a group-buy.  I'm hoping for only one prototype round with something this simple since it should only be a matter of proper spacing.  The prototype rounds for PCBs are the money sinks as each is disproportionately expensive compared to the quantity purchase.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: randytsuch on 13 Feb 2008, 06:29 am
Okay, no ground trace, a bit more spacing between the corners and leads.  I just adjusted the corner screw holes to be 0.15", which should accommodate up to #6 machine screws.  The board is 5"x2" at the moment.

I also "unlocked" the traces from the C3/C4 holes to off-set them and expand the gap between the traces to 0.25". 

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/felix4.jpg)

The number of boards ordered has a big impact on the per-board costs, so once we seem settled (I think I just need to triple-check measurements), then I'll start another thread for a group-buy.  I'm hoping for only one prototype round with something this simple since it should only be a matter of proper spacing.  The prototype rounds for PCBs are the money sinks as each is disproportionately expensive compared to the quantity purchase.

Looks good.

If you can send me a 1:1 scale, I'll double check it for you.  I have most of the parts, so I can check to real parts.  Only have the miller chokes, and some values of the caps, but I can get the datasheets for the other stuff.

Also, if you were not planning to, you should amortize the prototype costs into the group buy.  Let the group buy pay for all the costs for the PWB.

Randy

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 13 Feb 2008, 10:56 am

If you can send me a 1:1 scale, I'll double check it for you.  I have most of the parts, so I can check...


I've examples of all the coilcrafts, though the spacing is identical on all three, and can check those for you.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 13 Feb 2008, 04:15 pm
Thanks for the offers, but I expect that placing parts against an image won't be as accurate as comparing the parts spec sheets to the board specs (each being noted down to 1/1000").  Getting a precisely formatted image would be much harder given this software.  If anyone is interested in installing ExpressPCB and checking the measurements, I'd be happy to post the file. 

I'll check the measurements tonight or this weekend and then place a prototype order, along with an order for the fitted parts. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Hap on 13 Feb 2008, 04:36 pm
Excellent work people!

Can any of you clarify the best way to configure the caps in the line.

The original Felix schematics has the large value caps in the C1 & C4 position; which would place the C4 cap close to the CMC on the output side with the bypass caps in the C2/C5 and C3/C6 locations.
Many have suggested placing the .01uf caps bypass caps close to the CMC, and the current board project offered by BradJudy looks like the caps would be configured that way.

Would the cap configuration affect the sound in any way, or is there some other reason for keeping the small value bypass caps close to the CMC.

Cheers

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 13 Feb 2008, 04:38 pm
You want to put the bypass caps closest to the CMC.  I'm sure the original schematic you reference was drawn that way for convenience only.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 13 Feb 2008, 05:04 pm
My use of component numbering does match with the page 1 schematic - sorry for any confusion.  On the board the caps will only fit if the large value ones are on the outside and smaller values on the inside.  This seems to be the recommended configuration.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 13 Feb 2008, 05:14 pm
Hap - Good Catch!  :oops:

I'll fix the Schematic on pg.1 of this thread, to indicate the smaller values should be closest to the CMC.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 13 Feb 2008, 05:37 pm
... the smaller values should be closest to the CMC.

Just curious what reasoning is for this, as it is a bypass?  Lead inductance?  I usually piggy back those to the big caps anyway (when there is no PCB) so the leads can get a little long.  Tom
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 13 Feb 2008, 05:41 pm
The bypass caps are for the highest frequencies, therefore it is as you say in that you want to minimize lead inductance and other stray inductances. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 13 Feb 2008, 06:46 pm
Excellent work people!

Can any of you clarify the best way to configure the caps in the line.

The original Felix schematics has the large value caps in the C1 & C4 position; which would place the C4 cap close to the CMC on the output side with the bypass caps in the C2/C5 and C3/C6 locations.
Many have suggested placing the .01uf caps bypass caps close to the CMC, and the current board project offered by BradJudy looks like the caps would be configured that way.

Would the cap configuration affect the sound in any way, or is there some other reason for keeping the small value bypass caps close to the CMC.

Cheers



Does this configuration change the sound since I built the Felix based on Gary's schematic? 

Quote
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50284.20

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Hap on 13 Feb 2008, 08:57 pm
tanchiro58,

Also questioned the others about whether this configuration changes the sound since I built the my first Felix based on the original schematic too...

The first Felix I built used the Miller CMC and .47/.1/.01 caps; I built it exactly as the original schematic, placing the output .47uf cap next to the CMC, and the .01 bypass cap farthest away.
I put this one in the AC line to my preamp and was very happy with the results.

After seeing the other builds which placed the smallest value caps next to the CMC, I built another Felix this way using the same parts, and hooked this one up to my preamp.

My results are subjective; but I seem to notice a little more detail and speed to the sound with the .01 bypass caps close to the CMC; at least in my audio system.

I did not notice much difference with the different Felix config when they are used for my small TV monitor.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 13 Feb 2008, 09:50 pm
tanchiro58,

Also questioned the others about whether this configuration changes the sound since I built the my first Felix based on the original schematic too...

The first Felix I built used the Miller CMC and .47/.1/.01 caps; I built it exactly as the original schematic, placing the output .47uf cap next to the CMC, and the .01 bypass cap farthest away.
I put this one in the AC line to my preamp and was very happy with the results.

After seeing the other builds which placed the smallest value caps next to the CMC, I built another Felix this way using the same parts, and hooked this one up to my preamp.

My results are subjective; but I seem to notice a little more detail and speed to the sound with the .01 bypass caps close to the CMC; at least in my audio system.

I did not notice much difference with the different Felix config when they are used for my small TV monitor.

Cheers.



Hi Hap,

To be clear I assume that you said the latest Felix model  you built with 0.01mF closer to CMC (Main in 1.0, 0.1, 0.01--CMC--0.01, 0.1, 1.0 main out) has more details and faster sound then the previous Felix (based on Gary-GBB's schematic) with 0.01mF closer to CMC on main input and 0.01mF farther away from CMC (Main in: 1.0, 0.1, 0.01--CMC--1.0, 0.1, 0.01 main out). Correct me if I am wrong between the above Felix's configuration. Me too I am very happy with Gary's schematic in my system for now but I will try your way with two 0.01mF closer to CMC (mine is Coilcraft 4018/10A). Thanks.

Tan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Hap on 13 Feb 2008, 11:12 pm
tanchiro58,

It is just my subjective opinion that the Felix configured with the smallest bypass caps closest to the CMC sounds better in my audio system.
As for Gary's Felix as well as the original for that matter, this configuration I prefer:
Main in: 1.0, 0.1, 0.01--Coilcraft Q4018-A CMC--0.01, 0.1, 1.0 main out;
Main in: 0.47, 0.1, 0.01--JW Miller 8109 CMC--0.01, 0.1, 0.47 main out.

For the record, it is not my idea to configure the caps like this; there are many posts from Occam and GBB that suggests this configuration, and also give logical reasoning as to why the caps should be installed this way.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 14 Feb 2008, 12:22 am
Guys - There is no need to acknowledge things that are standard procedures in the realm of power electronics, bypassing, etc.... Important things yes, like Gary as the quintessential hipster, my people skills, Gordy's chick magnetism, JoshK's stunning good looks....  8)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 14 Feb 2008, 01:04 am
Quote
JoshK's stunning good looks....  Cool

Really?  :lol:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 15 Feb 2008, 01:35 am
Randy has pointed out to me that my design is based on a different set of caps than Gary recommended.  I designed it based on the Vishay/Roederstein F1778 X2 caps and his was based on Vishay/BC MKP 338 X1 caps.  Accommodating the lead spacing on the MKP338 X1's wouldn't be a problem, but they are notably thicker than the F1778's, so the board would have to be expanded.  The MKP 338 series also has an X2 rated set, but the lead spacing on the 0.01uF in that series is too close to safely fit this design. 

What are everyone's feelings on cap models? 

BTW: I corrected a spacing issue with the JW Miller CMC, and everything else appears correct (pending cap decision).
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 15 Feb 2008, 02:45 am
This is what Gary has suggested:

Quote
Coilcraft P3717-A CMC, available on Coilcraft's website
--- I used X1 rated polypro caps from Digikey in values of 1uf, 0.1uf, and 0.01uf on each side of the CMC
--- Part numbers are BC1576-ND, BC1587-ND, and BC1588-ND - Vishay/BC 440VAC X1 rated caps

I built one which works fine.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 15 Feb 2008, 03:06 am
BradJudy

Rather than expand the board further, would it be possible to add solder pads to the top of the board at the .1Uf locations?  At 16.5mm the 338's will fit within a 3/4" standoff.  Or will the width/thickness of the .01 338's be problematic as well?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 15 Feb 2008, 03:55 am
Bottom mounting is an option for the 0.1uF.  The thickness of the 0.01uF shouldn't be an issue.  Adding a 15mm spacing to C3/4 is easy enough - I just made that change.

The 1.0uF would be right on the input and output pads.  Here's a quick image with an overlay of the MKP 338 1.0uF cap in the C1 position.

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/felixcap.JPG)

Any reason X1's are being used?  It seems like overkill.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 15 Feb 2008, 12:40 pm
Bottom mounting is an option for the 0.1uF.  The thickness of the 0.01uF shouldn't be an issue.  Adding a 15mm spacing to C3/4 is easy enough - I just made that change.

The 1.0uF would be right on the input and output pads.  Here's a quick image with an overlay of the MKP 338 1.0uF cap in the C1 position.

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/felixcap.JPG)

Any reason X1's are being used?  It seems like overkill.
These look really great and I'd definitely be in for a few PCB's on a group buy.

Any consideration to space the line/neutral/gnd pads to accommodate readily available Eurostyle screw terminal blocks as an option?

Tom
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: randytsuch on 15 Feb 2008, 03:01 pm
FYI people, the X1 caps that Brad orginally used are rated for 275VAC, and the ones Gary used for his project (that I bought) are rated for 440VAC.

Either one would be fine for the 115VAC we have here in the US.  275VAC is a little close to European voltages, but I am not sure how much derating is recommended for AC caps.  I remember seeing somewhere that England runs a little higher (maybe up to 240?), and that would leave 35V derating, which would be a little close for me.  I would try for at least 20%.  We derate 30% at work, but different caps and different application.

Brad
Did not get a chance yet to look at the revised layout, with all the different caps, will try to do it today sometime.

Randy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 15 Feb 2008, 03:08 pm
ok ppl

dont have to make it perfect, we need an operational decision and carry it out
we are all waiting
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 15 Feb 2008, 03:17 pm
FYI people, the X1 caps that Brad orginally used are rated for 275VAC, and the ones Gary used for his project (that I bought) are rated for 440VAC.

Just to clarify, X1 caps are all rated to 440VAC and X2 caps are all rated to 275VAC.  My original layout used X2 caps. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 15 Feb 2008, 03:39 pm
Randy,

While your conservatism regarding these safety cap's voltage ratings is admirable, in this case, any cap rated X1, X2, Y1, Y2, is fine for this application, whether one is in a nominal 120 or 240vac country. When these caps are rated they go through a rigorous certification process (unlike most other caps), and tested at voltages substantially above nominal.

All thing being equal, type '1' caps are going to significantly larger than type '2', and 'Y' caps, larger than 'X'.  When space is a constraint, go with X2 rated caps for the Felix. As to which type (and brand or specific model) is preferable from an objective or subjective perspective, I ain't going there......

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 15 Feb 2008, 03:56 pm
ok ppl

dont have to make it perfect, we need an operational decision and carry it out
we are all wating

Don't push me, I'm weary enough about liability issues on this project, I don't need people bugging me about getting it done fast. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 15 Feb 2008, 04:38 pm
ok
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 15 Feb 2008, 05:45 pm
I don't mean to be a jerk, but the reality is that even in the most ideal situation, final boards will take weeks to be in my hands.  Here's the process:

Finish design and order prototype boards.
Order test-fit parts from at least three places (three different CMC's, multiple sizes of two different lines of caps)
<wait a week to get everything>
Test fit everything - if there are problems, go back to step 1 (each iteration is another $200)
Start a group buy thread that allows sufficient time for people to get in orders and send payments (one week?)
Order production boards
<wait two weeks>
receive boards, verify fit with test components
package and mail boards to everyone who ordered
<everyone waits a few days to receive them>

Even once a board is complete, these types of group-buys take several weeks. 

Naturally, all of this assumes I don't run into problems or have other time sinks come up. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 15 Feb 2008, 06:04 pm
I don't mean to be a jerk, but the reality is that even in the most ideal situation, final boards will take weeks to be in my hands.  Here's the process:

Finish design and order prototype boards.
Order test-fit parts from at least three places (three different CMC's, multiple sizes of two different lines of caps)
<wait a week to get everything>
Test fit everything - if there are problems, go back to step 1 (each iteration is another $200)
Start a group buy thread that allows sufficient time for people to get in orders and send payments (one week?)
Order production boards
<wait two weeks>
receive boards, verify fit with test components
package and mail boards to everyone who ordered
<everyone waits a few days to receive them>

Even once a board is complete, these types of group-buys take several weeks. 

Naturally, all of this assumes I don't run into problems or have other time sinks come up. 
You're not being a jerk, just using common sense.  I, for one, very much appreciate your initiative and effort to go through this.  It's not easy.

If somebody really NEEDS a Felix right now, it's about a half hour job to wire it PTP on perf board you can get at any RatShack, so just go do it (it's only 7 parts max).  I plan to order some of the PCB's for the long term just to have around to build when I need a few more.

Tom
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mgalusha on 15 Feb 2008, 06:36 pm
Order test-fit parts from at least three places (three different CMC's, multiple sizes of two different lines of caps)

Brad,

Let me know and I'll send you one of the Coilcraft CMC's and the Vishay X2 caps. I might be able to get them mailed today but if not, shouldn't be a problem for tomorrow.

Mike
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 15 Feb 2008, 10:01 pm
Thanks for the offer Mike.  The CoilCraft and Vishay 1778's were the ones I was planning on using for my own builds, so I'll be buying some of those anyway.  Plus, I'll send you one of the proto boards to test-fit anyway.  I'll just end up with a bit of frankenstein Felix builds with a combination of CMCs and caps.  :)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 15 Feb 2008, 10:03 pm
Any consideration to space the line/neutral/gnd pads to accommodate readily available Eurostyle screw terminal blocks as an option?

I'll take a quick look at that option as I do like screwblocks in general. 

Note that there is not a ground pad on this design - the feedback was to eliminate it as it did not serve a function on-board and should be handled off-board.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: randytsuch on 16 Feb 2008, 05:40 pm
I sat down this morning, and made a table, showing the sizes of the different caps that could be used
1778 X2   C3/0.01   C3/0.01   C2/0.1   C2/0.1   C1/1.0   C1/1.0
pitch   0.4   0.4   0.6   0.6   0.886   1.08
w   0.15   0.25   0.24   0.21   0.48   0.43
h   0.35   0.49   0.47   0.4   0.79   0.8
l   0.5   0.5   0.7   0.7   1.035   1.23
                  
338 X2   C3/0.01      C2/0.1      C1/1.0   
pitch   0.3      0.4      0.886   
w   0.16      0.24      0.39   
h   0.35      0.47      0.77   
l   0.39      0.5      1.02   
                  
338 X1   C3/0.01      C2/0.1      C1/1.0   
pitch   0.6      0.6      1.08   
w   0.19      0.39      0.81   
h   0.44      0.65      1.22   
l   0.69      0.69      1.2   


So, as of now, 338 X2 for C1 and C2 would not work, and the 338 X1 for C3 would be hard to fit.
The 338 X1 for C2 is a little wide, but it does fit if you use either X2 for C3

Randy

I noticed the formatting gets messed up when I post the table, hope you guys can make sense of it.

EDIT Fixed cap reference numbers
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 16 Feb 2008, 05:45 pm
Testing a better formatting

Code: [Select]
1778 X2   C1/0.01   C2/0.1   C2/0.1   C2/0.1   C3/1.0   C3/1.0
pitch        0.4      0.4    0.6      0.6      0.886     1.08
w            0.15     0.25   0.24     0.21     0.48      0.43
h            0.35     0.49   0.47     0.4      0.79      0.8
l            0.5      0.5    0.7      0.7      1.035     1.23

338 X2       C1/0.01      C2/0.1      C3/1.0   
pitch            0.3       0.4       0.886   
w                0.16      0.24      0.39   
h                0.35      0.47      0.77   
l                0.39      0.5       1.02   

338 X1       C1/0.01      C2/0.1      C3/1.0   
pitch            0.6       0.6       1.08   
w                0.19      0.39      0.81
h                0.44      0.65      1.22
l                0.69      0.69      1.2
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: randytsuch on 16 Feb 2008, 05:52 pm
OK, this should look better

(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10118/felix_cap_table%7E0.JPG)

Fixed
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 16 Feb 2008, 05:52 pm
Working in inches for these is a bit of a pain as they are all metric.  0.4 is 10mm, 0.6 is 15mm, 0.886 is 22.5mm and 1.08 is 27.5mm. 

The current design has both 22.5 and 27.5 on C1/6, 15mm on C2/5 and both 10mm and 15mm on C3/4.  This accommodates all pitches except for the 338 x2 0.01 which I'm deeming too small to do safely in this design.  Edit: I just noticed that the 338 X2 0.1 is 10mm, which is not handled either. 

Edit2: I also just noticed that Randy's numbers are opposite of mine on the board, so my line is confusing.

The only part left to work out is the thickness of the caps...
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 16 Feb 2008, 05:55 pm
Since height is just an issue of enclosure size and nothing restricts the lengths of the caps on the board, width is the only restricting factor. 

Note that the CMC outline on the board is for the largest of the CMC's: the CoilCraft combo series.  Using the JW Miller 8100 series leaves you more room on the inside. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 16 Feb 2008, 06:12 pm
Okay, to put a quick end to the cap discussion, the board has been stretched by 0.5" to allow for mounting either the 1778 X2 series or the 338 X1 series on the top of the board.  Pending spacing checks, I'll call that closed for the cap discussion.  Accommodating the 338 X2 series doesn't make sense since the 0.01uF won't safely fit anyway. 

Here's a new pic:

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/felix5.jpg)

I don't plan on leaving both sets of silkscreen traces for the caps.  One or the other will go. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 16 Feb 2008, 11:21 pm
Okay, I think I'm ready to call this done for prototyping.  Here's the latest board:

(http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/felix51.jpg)

It's mainly symmetry tweaks and distance verification from v0.5. 

For those interested in a closer look, here's the PCB file itself (you'll need to install ExpressPCB to open it) - http://www.bradjudy.com/pics/felix.pcb
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 16 Feb 2008, 11:37 pm
BTW: It looks like something like the Serpac 152 (http://www.serpac.com/products_s-152.htm) might be a good option for an in-line Felix box.  They are <$8 at Digikey and Mouser.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: ecramer on 17 Feb 2008, 12:50 am
BTW: It looks like something like the Serpac 152 (http://www.serpac.com/products_s-152.htm) might be a good option for an in-line Felix box.  They are <$8 at Digikey and Mouser.


Hey just want to thank BradJudy for all the work put into this project  :thumb:

Ed
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 17 Feb 2008, 04:41 pm
yes
and very thorough
:)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 17 Feb 2008, 06:28 pm
Thanks.  I think the board is all set.  I just integrated some feedback from Randy to increase the pad size of the mount holes to match the head size of a #6 machine screw. 

I'll place the order for prototype boards today, as well as parts to fit-test the boards. 

I was thinking of selling off the spare fit parts with boards and then I got thinking about just doing an optional "kit" choice.  It looks like some of the parts like the JW Miller chokes and the MKP 338 caps have a discount at a quantity of 10 (the mid-sized 8100's drop by $2.30/ea at qty 10, which is more than the others).  The F1778's have a price break at qty 50, which might also be reachable.  I wouldn't want to deal with a lot of different combinations though, so I'd probably stick to the standard 1/.1/.01 on caps and only choose a couple of choke sizes.  Unfortunately, CoilCraft lists their first price break at 250, so I don't think there's any cost advantage there other than potential shipping savings.

Would an option like this would be desirable?  Or does everyone want to buy their own since they'll have to order other parts (cases, cables, breakers, etc) anyway?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 17 Feb 2008, 06:42 pm
BTW: It also occurred to me that supporting the largest 8100's on this board is kind of pointless since these trace sizes are only appropriate for 10A, so limiting it to the 8109-8118 range is fine.  The 8119-8121 range is rated for 14.5A+ and I don't think anyone here is interested in the 8101-8108 range.  I'll leave the large choke pads on - it doesn't appear to impact the cost.

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 17 Feb 2008, 06:46 pm
That is a good idea Brad.  I wouldn't allow for intentional misuse and limit it to the smaller rated chokes. For the higher rated chokes, one should just do point to point with higher awg wiring.

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: double nickels on 18 Feb 2008, 05:00 pm

hello,
I have lashed up two units by the GBB construction method (CC 10amp, vishay 1.0,.1,.01 film caps) but forgot to
orient the (film?) writing on the caps in the same direction.  This was mentioned by someone (occam?).  My question
is, is this a significant oversight and should I reconstruct?

Thanks to all involved, as this simple unit sounds better than any of my
previously used power conditioners.

Matt
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 18 Feb 2008, 07:01 pm

hello,
I have lashed up two units by the GBB construction method (CC 10amp, vishay 1.0,.1,.01 film caps) but forgot to
orient the (film?) writing on the caps in the same direction.  This was mentioned by someone (occam?).  My question
is, is this a significant oversight and should I reconstruct?

Thanks to all involved, as this simple unit sounds better than any of my
previously used power conditioners.

Matt

Hi Matt,

I did build the same as your Felix based on the first Gary's schematic (Vishay 1.0, 0.1, 0.01--CMC (CC)-- 1.0, 0.1, 0.01). It still sounds very nice to me with the switching PS inside the box. I do not want to reconstruct the film caps at the main output (main in: 1.0, 0.1, 0.01--CMC--0.01, 0.1, 1.0: main out) but I will build another one as the new pictures of Gary in this thread to compare them. I do not think there will be a problem.

Tan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 18 Feb 2008, 08:13 pm
Double Nickles,

I wouldn't worry about it.... A couple of years ago, working with Tianguis (Larry) on the Felicia, we found that we preferred the same alignment of caps within bypass groupings. It didn't matter if the whole group was turned around (this was balanced split phase power). It wasn't a large difference. My experience is anecdotal, and hardly scientific. This is a different situation where we're dealing with a single phase (hot) signal with the caps bridging to a grounded (neutral) connection, as in a Felix. Some folks have posted over on AA as to the preferable orientation, (I can't recall where specifically or do I vouch for their accuracy) but all I can suggest is that this is an area where we all could benefit from others experience and experiments. Then again, it might not matter at all....

A breadboarded Felix or other type of conditioner is one of the few instances where we can put a DUT (device under test) and compare between 2 such, or against a wire bypass, without having to power a system down and suffer the constraints of comparing sound with an intervening gap, or change in volume. All it takes is a pair of 4pdt (center off) switches.

The 4 poles are HotIn, HotOut, NeutIn, NeutOut, referring to the inputs and outputs of a Felix
Bypass is simply 2 wire links from HotIn to HotOut and NeutIn to NeutOut/
The 2 4pdt(center-off) switches would be wired for their 3 positions as follows -

Switch_1
1. DUT1
2. Out of circuit (center off)
3. Bypass DUT1 (wire links)

Switch_2
1. Bypass DUT2 (wire links)
2. Out of circuit (center off)
3. DUT2

I'll draw up a schematic and post it in a new thread 'A switchbox for comparing power conditioners'

FWIW
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: double nickels on 18 Feb 2008, 09:15 pm
Hey,
Thanks for the info guys, I didn't think it was a big deal, but since it's mains and I have limited diy I thought
it's best to get feedback from those that know.  My wife didn't like the look two units powered bare on the floor, so now it's enclosure building time, not my favorite part.  But.....

Matt
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: natemil on 24 Feb 2008, 10:57 pm
Hi,

I have a basic question.  Is there a rule of thumb for sizing the fuse, A and V?  Would it be the same or a fraction of the filtering component's fuse? 

thanks, Doug
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 8 Mar 2008, 02:06 pm
Gordy and I are working to put some Felix's together for my main HT and bedroom HT set up.  We're looking for some relatively inexpensive enclosures (ABS or aluminum) that can house three Felix circuit boards, caps and Coilcraft CMC's with two side mounted AC receptacles.

An 8"x6"x3" enclosure box or slightly larger will do it.  We are looking for options beyond the relatively flimsy Radio Shack project box.  I saw some Hammond 1591ESBK ABS Project Boxes (7.5"x4.4"x2.4") but these are too small and I don't think Hammond makes a larger ABS box. Your suggestions would be most welcome!  Thanks.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 8 Mar 2008, 02:45 pm
hi NAture boy
i see many boxes in your image ;)

Why dont you make them from wood and make them shiny and beautiful?
You can use copperfoil and or aluminum foil inside to connect to earth to block RFI
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Maxdd_nj on 8 Mar 2008, 02:46 pm
Saw these advertised in the last AudioXpress:
http://www.audioxpress.com/bksprods/products/ae-1a.htm (http://www.audioxpress.com/bksprods/products/ae-1a.htm)
If you get one let us know what you think.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 8 Mar 2008, 04:16 pm
Max,

It looks like Wolgram Engineered Plastics makes the MC series metal cabinets in a variety of sizes.  This may be an option:

Link: http://www.wolgrammfg.com/products/mcSeries.html

Thanks :D

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 8 Mar 2008, 04:30 pm
Par-metal makes some decent enclosures as well... http://www.par-metal.com/
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: F-100 on 8 Mar 2008, 04:41 pm
Cheaper on Ebay.
Aluminum Project Box (http://cgi.ebay.com/Aluminum-Project-Box-Enclousure-Case-Electronic-DIY-Mid_W0QQitemZ250223163340QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4660QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: markC on 8 Mar 2008, 04:48 pm
Try these guys. Lots of different styles & sizes to choose from.
http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=6
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 8 Mar 2008, 06:59 pm
Thanks Mark,  I've used the Heeger extruded alum. enclosures for PS's and Felix's when looks matter, they're very nice but, don't have them large enough for an all-in-one chassis.  I forget they have other type boxes as well  :duh: 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: ecramer on 8 Mar 2008, 07:55 pm
Well i just placed two felix's on my  dedicated lines  :thumb: now Now i need to build three more one for each of my mono amps and cdp and i guess i should actually build 4 so i do my pre too :duh: They took some crud off the bottom

ED
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: ecramer on 8 Mar 2008, 07:59 pm
Id like to do the 4 felixs i want to build cdp pre and monos all in one box and the outlets mounted in the box so i can use my power cords that i have and just run the dedicated lines into the box hardwired

ED

Thanks Mark,  I've used the Heeger extruded alum. enclosures for PS's and Felix's when looks matter, they're very nice but, don't have them large enough for an all-in-one chassis.  I forget they have other type boxes as well  :duh: 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 9 Mar 2008, 01:15 am
Thanks Guys!

I think I'm going to get a couple LMG Heeber jiffy box chassis's. Model# J884 10" x 6" x 3.5" in black.  These should accomodate 4 Felix boards, caps and CMC's with a little room to spare.  The chassis dimensions will allow me to accomodate two AC receptacles on the outside.

Thanks for the tip markC.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 9 Mar 2008, 01:22 am
Guys

I e-mailed Par-Metal about doing something like this a little while back.  They recommended enclosure #20-08124x and would punch the holes for 4 duplex outlets with accompanying screw holes and an IEC hole.  Price was $100 for the first one and $50 for each additional one.

Not sure if these prices are still good.

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 9 Mar 2008, 02:14 am
I e-mailed Par-Metal about doing something like this a little while back.  They recommended enclosure #20-08124x and would punch the holes for 4 duplex outlets with accompanying screw holes and an IEC hole.  Price was $100 for the first one and $50 for each additional one.

Not sure if these prices are still good.

That would be very cool to get enclosures with outlet holes pre-punched.  If it could fit four duplexes and four Felix boards, I would probably buy two of them. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 9 Mar 2008, 02:30 am
Quote
They recommended enclosure #20-08124x and would punch the holes for 4 duplex outlets with accompanying screw holes and an IEC hole.

Jim,

Do you know the dimensions on this Par-Metal enclosure?  I don't see this one listed on their website.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 9 Mar 2008, 02:58 am
Quote
They recommended enclosure #20-08124x and would punch the holes for 4 duplex outlets with accompanying screw holes and an IEC hole.

Jim,

Do you know the dimensions on this Par-Metal enclosure?  I don't see this one listed on their website.

NB

NB, I'm not sure.  I sent him the instructions from the Hagerman for their conditioner:

http://www.hagtech.com/pdf/conditioner.pdf

Looking at the Par-Metal site I don't see that model either.  Maybe we should figure out what enclosure makes sense and I'll send an e-mail to the Par-Metal guys again for pricing.

I'm thinking of the IEC on the opposite side of the outlets.  We could also add a cutout for the mounting of a circuit breaker (ala Audience Adept).

What about this model:

20-16124A  (16W x 12D x 4H)

Given that the Felix boards are 2" this would allow space in between the boards as well as the walls of the enclosure.  The next size provides another 4" of depth which might make wiring a little easier / neater.

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 9 Mar 2008, 03:29 am
Jim,

"I'm thinking of the IEC on the opposite side of the outlets."  You're referring to both being on the back panel I presume?

If you go with a 20-12083 I'm very interested in at least one, should a GB turn up  8)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 9 Mar 2008, 03:55 am
Jim,

"I'm thinking of the IEC on the opposite side of the outlets."  You're referring to both being on the back panel I presume?

If you go with a 20-12083 I'm very interested in at least one, should a GB turn up  8)

Gordy, I was thinking of having the outlets on one side of the enclosure (call it the front) and the IEC on the other side (call it the back).  But, maybe its best to have the IEC in-between the 4 duplex outlets (on the back) wired to a breaker on the opposite side (the front).  From the breaker you go to each of the 4 Felix boards and then to the outlets.  I guess with 4 Felix boards you really only need a pair of duplex outlets.  One Felix to each of the outlets (bus bar between the outlets would need to be removed).

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 9 Mar 2008, 04:07 am
That's more to my thinking, have all the cords to the rear and a clean fascia!  I tend to have my power cord(s) on the far right but, that's just me...  :thumb:

edit: Yes, don't forget to remove the buss bar, done that  :oops:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tanchiro58 on 9 Mar 2008, 05:24 am
That's more to my thinking, have all the cords to the rear and a clean fascia!  I tend to have my power cord(s) on the far right but, that's just me...  :thumb:

edit: Yes, don't forget to remove the buss bar, done that  :oops:

Gordy,

I would build each Felix for each component by using these male IECs to replace my power cords that will be sold.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13838)

Tan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomW16 on 9 Mar 2008, 05:43 am
I'm not an electrical engineer but DIY whenever I can and feel comfortable with this Felix project and will be ordering a number of Felixs for the group buy.  Thanks Brad!   :thumb:

Just one question; what is the advantage (if any) of having individual boards rather than a single board feeding multiple units.

For example, why could I not simply build a single enclosure with a single 3 Amp Felix board with 4 outlets to feed power to the transport, DAC, tuner and preamp if they all use less than 0.5 amp each?

Thanks.

Tom
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 9 Mar 2008, 11:00 am
that seems a good idea to me TOm, but you will miss the advantage that Felix works two way

it also in a way filters the unit connected to it, for the rest of yr system. Especially with digital this may be beneficial
you will miss this extra filtering  when you connect different apparatus to one Felix.In this last case the units will "feed" each other  a bit depending on the quality of their pws.
also different felixes will add their "primary" capacitors to the overall ac source if i am not mistaken
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 9 Mar 2008, 12:21 pm
Hi Tan,

That's exactly how I've done it in the past, like Occam's original Felix, if they weren't installed inside a component.  Just be sure to leave a long enough cord between Felix and IEC so that the IEC doesn't have to support the weight of the Felix.

Tom,

The components most needing isolation / a dedicated Felix would be dac's, dvdp's, cdp's, computers /laptops, basically anything digital or with a switching mode power supply.  Other components like tuners, pre's, phono pre's and TT's could most certainly share a Felix if you like!  A Miller 1820 17a cmc could handle your whole system and then just add some 1-3a Felix's for "problem" components. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 9 Mar 2008, 02:05 pm
Gordy has convinced me  :idea:

The more I have been thinking about it for a two duplex receptacle arrangement with 4 Felix boards, the Par-Metal #20-12083X seems to be the best way to go.  The 12"W x 8"D x 3H" dimensions will give us plenty of interior space for the boards, wiring, etc. and will easily accommodate 2 duplex receptacles and power cord on the rear side.  It should look pretty upscale too!

Now the only decision is whether to go with unfinished, alodine, painted or anodized boxes??  Decisions, decisions, decisions.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomW16 on 9 Mar 2008, 05:02 pm
Thanks Kyrill and Gordy for the information.  Based on your input, I'm thinking of ordering 10 Felixs for my home theater and 2-channel listening systems:

Home Theater System:
Four 3 Amp Felixs for i) DVD Player, ii) Preamp/processor, iii) Sub equalizer, and iv) Projector.  All are digital with the exception of the projector, which is physically separated from the other components and, therefore, requires its own Felix.
Two 10 Amp Felixs for i) 5-Channel Amp, and ii) Sub Amp.

2-Channel System:
Three 3 Amp Felixs for i) Transport, ii) DAC and, iii) Tuner and Preamp.
One 10 Amp Felix for the stereo amplifier.

I am only combining the tuner and preamp together on a single 3 Amp Felix so not much savings.  Maybe I'll just order eleven Felixs and have everything discrete.  After doing some quick math at ~$30 per Felix and then the costs for enclosures, duplex receptacles, fuses, etc., I'm looking at over $400.  From what I have read, this seems to be grounded in hard science and makes a real difference.  I'm just looking for a quick sanity check before I pull the trigger and send Brad a PM.

Thanks!

Tom



Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 9 Mar 2008, 07:56 pm
Gordy has convinced me  :idea:

The more I have been thinking about it for a two duplex receptacle arrangement with 4 Felix boards, the Par-Metal #20-12083X seems to be the best way to go.  The 12"W x 8"D x 3H" dimensions will give us plenty of interior space for the boards, wiring, etc. and will easily accommodate 2 duplex receptacles and power cord on the rear side.  It should look pretty upscale too!

Now the only decision is whether to go with unfinished, alodine, painted or anodized boxes??  Decisions, decisions, decisions.

NB

Guys, I will e-mail Par-Metal about this enclosure with holes punched for 2 duplex outlets and an IEC.  What do you think about a hole punched for a circuit breaker mounted to the opposite side?  Can be used as an "on-off" switch and better / easier than fuses.

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 9 Mar 2008, 08:36 pm
Quote
Guys, I will e-mail Par-Metal about this enclosure with holes punched for 2 duplex outlets and an IEC.  What do you think about a hole punched for a circuit breaker mounted to the opposite side?  Can be used as an "on-off" switch and better / easier than fuses.

-Jim

Wow, thanks Jim for getting some pricing with holes punched.  I have been using a Felicia continually powered on, so actually would prefer not to have a hole punched for a circuit breaker mount.  I will be using this in between a Tripp Lite surge suppressor, which I can turn on and off.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 10 Mar 2008, 02:04 am
Quote
Guys, I will e-mail Par-Metal about this enclosure with holes punched for 2 duplex outlets and an IEC.  What do you think about a hole punched for a circuit breaker mounted to the opposite side?  Can be used as an "on-off" switch and better / easier than fuses.

-Jim

Wow, thanks Jim for getting some pricing with holes punched.  I have been using a Felicia continually powered on, so actually would prefer not to have a hole punched for a circuit breaker mount.  I will be using this in between a Tripp Lite surge suppressor, which I can turn on and off.

NB

Happy to do it.  I've no direct experience with these guys, but hopefully their enclosure will work out for our needs.  I'll e-mail them right now.  I'll post as soon as I hear back.

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BradJudy on 10 Mar 2008, 02:16 am
Happy to do it.  I've no direct experience with these guys, but hopefully their enclosure will work out for our needs.  I'll e-mail them right now.  I'll post as soon as I hear back.

I've purchased a 20 series chassis from them in the past.  They are a fairly popular source for DIY folks at Head-Fi and other forums. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 17 Mar 2008, 10:12 am
A quote from Hugh the Aspen line designer about a similar filter as the Felix:
"I took a peek at your conditioner.  ...
.  It's common mode, so only differential currents are attentuated, not those where active and neutral currents are balanced.  At 60Hz, balanced AC currents flow like the breeze, but unbalanced currents are savagely attenuated.  For a trafo, this is precisely what is needed."

Here i am again with my layman's question

the Felix has the Coilcraft which combines a common mode and a differeritial one.
May i conclude that the common mode chokes benefit enormously from having a balanced AC transformer before the Felix? And a differential choke then becomes "out of work"? Or reversed with a non balanced transformer in front of the Felix? Out of work i mean filter the AC line coming in, not filtering the AC line from the unit with a possible switching pws
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Christopher Witmer on 17 Mar 2008, 11:04 am
This is not the answer you're looking for, but I expect that conditions could occur where the benefits of multiple devices would be cumulative, so the choke is never truly "out of work."
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mgalusha on 17 Mar 2008, 04:50 pm
Quote
As to whether a Felix (or other non-transformer based conditioner) provides incremental benefits through its additional attenuation above and beyond a balancing conditioner to justify the cost and effort is a subjective call. But given the low cost and ease of implementing a Felix (THANKS BradJudy!), its easy enough to find out for yourself. Same goes for which specific CMC is chosen for to filter which component(s), and how much capacitance is appropriate.

I can say that adding a Felix in front of my DCX and after a balanced conditioner did offer additional improvement, so as Paul said, build one and find out how it works for you. For the cost of a decent meal you can enjoy some long term improvements in your system. :)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Joey B on 22 Mar 2008, 07:17 pm
Hi Guys

Where can you order the x2 Wima caps online ?

TIA

Joe
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 22 Mar 2008, 08:16 pm
Have you given The Lab's auto-Wima finder a try?  Wima (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=14139.0)   :D
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Glen B on 28 Mar 2008, 04:44 pm
In that inductor shown in the PureAC, I only see two leads, which makes me think it is a standard inductor not a CMC.  Am I just not seeing the other two leads?

Yes, the inductors in the Belkin PureAv conditioners are CMCs.  I own a PF-60 and before that a PF-30.  The way the other two leads are positioned, they are not visible in a top view.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 11 Apr 2008, 01:41 pm
After getting no where with Par-Metal, I decided to picked up a couple of these Bud Industries ABS rack mountable boxes for my Felix project.  They are a bit larger than I wanted, but the are desktop convertible and I have room in both my HT and 2 channel racks.  They run ~$41.00 -$45.00 and can be had at Newark, Digi-Key, or Allied Electronics.

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=77C5311

I'll let you know how these work out after getting boards and caps from BradJudy.  Gordy old boy, I bit the bullet on these.  The Bud boxes appear spacious enough for 3 or maybe 4 sets of AC receptacles on the rear panel.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Bill A on 11 Apr 2008, 08:54 pm
A quote from Hugh the Aspen line designer about a similar filter as the Felix:
"I took a peek at your conditioner.  ...
.  It's common mode, so only differential currents are attentuated, not those where active and neutral currents are balanced.  At 60Hz, balanced AC currents flow like the breeze, but unbalanced currents are savagely attenuated.  For a trafo, this is precisely what is needed."

Is this right?  I think he has it backwards.

Bill A
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: AKSA on 11 Apr 2008, 11:11 pm
Why would you say that, Bill?

A transformer has two input wires on its primary.  What flows in must flow out, conservation of charge, so currents are balanced.  Ideally we want any noise on one wire replicated on the other, so that the difference between them, which passes to the secondary, is negligible by cancellation across the windings.

The idea is to convert differential noise into common mode noise - appearing on both wires, active and neutral - so that negligible noise gets through to the secondary.

Hugh
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Bill A on 12 Apr 2008, 01:37 am
Hi Hugh,

Are you refering to the operation of the Felix or the Felicia?  By kyrill's post I was under the assumption it was in reference to the Felix as show here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0)

I'm sorry if I appear dense, but I want to get this.  I'm pretty confident of my knowledge of how a CMC, as its used in the Felix, works by offering little impedance to differential signals but high impedance to the common mode signals.  (However, confidence can lead to "Hey, watch this!", which is asking for trouble.)

I think you are refereing to the balanced power conditioner shown here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441.0)

Bill A
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 12 Apr 2008, 02:24 am
Gordy has convinced me  :idea:

The more I have been thinking about it for a two duplex receptacle arrangement with 4 Felix boards, the Par-Metal #20-12083X seems to be the best way to go.  The 12"W x 8"D x 3H" dimensions will give us plenty of interior space for the boards, wiring, etc. and will easily accommodate 2 duplex receptacles and power cord on the rear side.  It should look pretty upscale too!

Now the only decision is whether to go with unfinished, alodine, painted or anodized boxes??  Decisions, decisions, decisions.

NB

Guys, I will e-mail Par-Metal about this enclosure with holes punched for 2 duplex outlets and an IEC.  What do you think about a hole punched for a circuit breaker mounted to the opposite side?  Can be used as an "on-off" switch and better / easier than fuses.

-Jim

Guys, no news to report from Par-Metal...which I guess is bad news.  And this after multiple e-mails.  Its safe to say I will be taking my business elsewhere!  I know they do nice stuff...but the lack of response is unacceptable.
 
:?

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 12 Apr 2008, 02:44 am
Thanks for trying Jim!  Roger has been telling me of your efforts and the lack of response from Par Metal.  The Bud boxes may work out fine, I suspect the ABS will be too soft/flexable to withstand the force needed  for the plugs and receptacles but, hopefully an aluminum L-bracket across the full length of the back will prevent any flexing.  Just a guess based on the Radio Shack ABS boxes....

Thanks again  :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: StuntHunt on 21 Apr 2008, 12:34 am
Just thought Iโ€™d post a follow-up to a much earlier post of mine.  After much procrastinating, I finally got around to assembling my first Felix PC.  I figured if Iโ€™m going to do this, Iโ€™m going to do it right.  Itโ€™s a 10A, double Felix in one Radio Shack project box.  I got my parts from Digikey (thanks Gary, for the tips), and from DIYCable.  I used 2 JW Miller 8120-RC CMCs, and caps with the values of 1uf, 0.1uf, and  0.01uf.  I used 1A fast-blo fuses in line with each cap cluster (thanks BobM for the tips).  I have a 10A on/off circuit breaker switch installed where the power comes in, so I can shut off the whole power supply when Iโ€™m not using it. 

I installed 2 two-outlet Pass & Seymour 5262 AW outlets in the Felix box, and for a power supply Iโ€™m using Asylum-approved Belden 19364 cable with a P & S  5266-X A/C plug.  All the Felix internal wiring came from the same 19364 cable, which I wired point-to-point.  Using 14 ga for internal wiring was probably overkill (and made assembly more difficult than necessary) but I was feeling inspired.

Just to get it right, I also made new power cables for my McCormack DNA1 Rev. A amp and Odyssey Tempest preamp from the same Asylum design, using Schurter Straight IEC plugs for the component end of things.  And just to complete it all, I installed a Pass & Seymour 5262 AW outlet in the wall where I plug everything in.  If youโ€™re going to do it, do it right.

The whole thing took a few hours to put together, and the cost was a bit higher than I expected, due primarily to the high end outlets, plugs and cables.  But after spending many thousands on this audio hobby of mine, this was no big deal.

But was it worth it?

Well, Iโ€™ve always been a skeptic of the idea that a fancy power supply could improve sonic performance.  My thoughts were these: you are getting your power from the standard house wiring, so as long as your component power cable was of sufficiently heavy gauge, itโ€™s going to get the job done just fine.  So up until now everything was plugged into your standard wall outlets, using your standard generic power cables, and everything sounded OK.

That was until I put the Felix on line.  WOW!  What a difference!  Suddenly, the whole sound stage opened up CONSIDERABLY!  I noticed it immediately.  My Kef Reference 4โ€™s used to sound a bit muddy, and a bit unfocused.  Now they are stellar.  The bass is tighter; treble lighter and more transparent, voices and instruments better defined, and reallyโ€”EVERYTHING sounds better, clearer, and more articulate.  Very, very cool.  Now Iโ€™m a believer!  Thanks to everyone who posted tips on assembling this electrical marvel.  And if anyone is thinking of making one of these, JUST DO IT! 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BobM on 21 Apr 2008, 11:43 am
All I can say is ... it's about time Bryan. Now wait till the break-in period is over.

Enjoy,
Bob
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 21 Apr 2008, 11:54 am
suppose yr speakers are boxes with a tap
it releases red wine
yr amplifier is the wonder machine that changes water in wine. ( hmm, has heard this before  :scratch:)
the quality (Q.)  of the wine depends
on the recipe the machine accepts as input ( musical input)
The machine needs another input "water" ( the AC from  the wall outlet)

Can you imagine how the Q. of the wine basically starts with the Q. of the water?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BobM on 21 Apr 2008, 01:33 pm
I'm getting thirsty! :drool:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mluckow on 25 Apr 2008, 04:20 am
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I'm relatively new to high-end audio.  I'm currently building a Felix and I'm wondering if anyone has advice about using it with a surge suppressor.  Is that not recommended?  I've heard that surge suppressors can cause noise, but I'm worried that my audio equipment could be damaged by spikes or surges, so I've been using one for that reason.

Any advice would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Mike
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 26 May 2008, 06:20 pm
I wanted to share my observations on the Felix made from the group buy parts with my PS audio C-100 with cullen modifications. The rest of my system includes the GR-Research OB7's for speakers and CD player is Onix cd-5,  Reality Cables SC's, Anticable's IC's.

This felix used:
Vishay/BC MKP 338 X1 set of two 1.0 uF, two 0.1 uF and two 0.01 uF
8118-RC - 7.3mH 9.3A

It is built in a radioshack abs enclosure, wired in the middle of a Volex power cord from which the C-100 is powered, directly.

Initial impressions was that I heard a little bit of infrequent clicking static, as you might hear on a record -but that was just on the track and I hadn't noticed it before... When I replaced the plain volex, it was there too I just hadn't listened to it that closely before. This was on Alicia keys "As I am" album tracks 4 and 5 "No one" and "Never see me again", respectively.

Then I listened to some tracks again, and in comparison I felt when the felix was powering the amp, it did NOT have the same life in the music. There was a loss of air and openness in the presentation. I won't be using it on the amp.  I feel these characteristics are the real strength of this amp/speaker combination, so I was pretty disappointed to see this -gilding the lily, I guess...

I am going to go ahead and build another one with the P3717-A - 25mH 3A  and try that on the cd-player though, and see if I notice any improvements.

-Tony
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 28 May 2008, 03:45 pm
hi

Paul is right, a "superb" filtered pws should not benefit from the Felix, however why should it sound w less life?
Less micro dynamics i would expect

If you have a very transparent setup and just as or better "transparent" ears you should hear the Felix needs 200 hrs burn in time. Have you tried that? Also at that level all interactions can be heard, so cables to and from the Felix should not be hindered by other factors A Felix shielded if you prefer that. Of course it should be soldered all right, and i would avoid  two AC fuses in a sequence (one in the Felix, one in the pws)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomW16 on 28 May 2008, 06:52 pm
I put eight Felixs into a Welborne Gatekeeper, which was a very tight fit and, I assume because of the close spacing of the Felixs, an audible hum could be heard when I powered it up.  Once the lid was installed and the power filter was put behind the components, I could not hear any hum without my ear being within a foot or so of the filter so I didn't bother trying to correct it.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7451.JPG) (http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7450.JPG) (http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7448.JPG) (http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7447.JPG)


Kyrill, I noted that you recommended not putting two fuses in series.  I have that situation in that there is a 15A fuse for the Gatekeeper hot line and then I installed individual fuses for each Felix (3A slow blow and 10A fast blow).  Would this provide some sonic degradation?  I could simply bypass the 15A fuse noting that the other fuses are there to protect each Felix.  I know that my amp also has a fuse in series so that is 3!

I initially thought that the power filter took away some air in recordings but upon more critical listening it was simply a blacker presentation.  All of the information was still there and actually provided a quieter background to more easily hear ambient information that seemed to be obscured before.  My power filter is staying in the system. 

Cheers,
Tom
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Ichinichi on 29 May 2008, 01:27 am
could you post larger versions of these photos?

i'll do it...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14693)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14694)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14695)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14696)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Ichinichi on 29 May 2008, 01:37 am
I put eight Felixs into a Welborne Gatekeeper, which was a very tight fit and, I assume because of the close spacing of the Felixs, an audible hum could be heard when I powered it up.  Once the lid was installed and the power filter was put behind the components, I could not hear any hum without my ear being within a foot or so of the filter so I didn't bother trying to correct it.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7451.JPG) (http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7450.JPG) (http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7448.JPG) (http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7447.JPG)


Kyrill, I noted that you recommended not putting two fuses in series.  I have that situation in that there is a 15A fuse for the Gatekeeper hot line and then I installed individual fuses for each Felix (3A slow blow and 10A fast blow).  Would this provide some sonic degradation?  I could simply bypass the 15A fuse noting that the other fuses are there to protect each Felix.  I know that my amp also has a fuse in series so that is 3!

I initially thought that the power filter took away some air in recordings but upon more critical listening it was simply a blacker presentation.  All of the information was still there and actually provided a quieter background to more easily hear ambient information that seemed to be obscured before.  My power filter is staying in the system. 

Cheers,
Tom

Tom,

How large is that enclosure?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Ichinichi on 29 May 2008, 01:56 am
My understanding is that a balanced Felix power center uses a choke between the toroid and every single outlet of the power center with three lines of caps along the path before and after the choke.

Questions:

Given the choke I have (Hammond 193L; 5 Henries), the toroid I have (Plitron 2000VA; http://www.plitron.com/shopping/specs/857502.pdf (http://www.plitron.com/shopping/specs/857502.pdf)) and what Occam posted on page 1:

"The potential problem with a single CMC before the paralleled (CMCs + xxx + outlet) is that that single CMC would have to pass the total of all the currents whereas those paralleled CMCs only pass the current associated with its individual outlet. The same caveat would apply to a CMC that feeds the unit or a balancing transformer. I'm not saying its impractical, just that its easier to source a CMC that won't saturate when feeding the lesser draw of an individual component."

1. Does that mean I'm better off using my choke to feed the toroid because I already have the items in hand? I mean, the only issue Occam raises in the quote above is the practicality/ease of sourcing a CMC that can pass the total of all the currents in the box, right?

2. Can some one give me a guess or actual value of how big each point-to-point Felix using the CMCs like what Tom has would be?

3. Tom above speculates about how hum may be due to proximity of each individual Felix pipeline to others - I guess I can have the outlets on either side of the toroid with the toroid in the middle...ideas? What is the minimal spacing between the CMC and the caps as well as between the caps themselves?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomW16 on 29 May 2008, 05:07 am
Quote
Tom,

How large is that enclosure?

Hi Ichinichi,

The Welborne GateKeeper case is 11.5" deep x 9" high by 5" wide.  It looked like adequate room to start with but it ended up being tight.  It all fit in though.

Cheers,
Tom

P.S.  You'll have to tell me how you enlarged the photos.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 29 May 2008, 09:58 am
just that its easier to source a CMC that won't saturate when feeding
this is the reason Paul primarily means, i assume

i use
wall outlet-->small balanced transformer #1-->Felix-->component A
              -->small balanced transformer #2-->Felix-->component B
              -->small balanced transformer #3-->Felix-->component C
wall outlet-big balanced transformer-->Felix-->component 1
                                                -->Felix-->component 2
                                                -->Felix-->component 3
So in this configuration already 6 Felixes and 4  balanced transformers
Ichinichi
Yes i try to avoid wire fuses as much as possible
it is not only the wire, the whole package was never designed for sound, but for security ( like enclosures, they too are not designed for sound, otherwise they would be completely differently designed)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: GBB on 29 May 2008, 02:01 pm
Questions:

Given the choke I have (Hammond 193L; 5 Henries), the toroid I have and what Occam posted on page 1:

1. Does that mean I'm better off using my choke to feed the toroid because I already have the items in hand? I mean, the only issue Occam raises in the quote above is the practicality/ease of sourcing a CMC that can pass the total of all the currents in the box, right?


Ichi,
Conventional chokes, like the Hammond, and the CMCs used in the Felix are completely different.  You can not use a conventional choke in place of a CMC.  CMCs are designed to have very low loss at the frequency of the power lines (60hz) but much higher loss at higher frequencies.  Conventional chokes are meant as power supply filters and will have too much loss in a power line filter.

---Gary
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Ichinichi on 29 May 2008, 03:35 pm
Ah. Is there any benefit to placing the Hammond between the wall and my toroid?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Ichinichi on 29 May 2008, 03:45 pm
P.S.  You'll have to tell me how you enlarged the photos.

change the address you put in for the image from

"http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7451.JPG"
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48223/thumb_IMG_7451.JPG)

to

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14693
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14693)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Ichinichi on 1 Jun 2008, 12:30 am
NO one can help?  :scratch:

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 1 Jun 2008, 11:57 am
Well the first Felix box with two AC receptacles has been finished by good old Gordy.  After soldering boards on a visit a couple weeks ago, he spent about 4 hours yesterday wiring and soldering the first box which includes two AC receptacles.

Materials included:

(1) Bud Industries PRM-14462 - Plastic Rack Mount Box
(4) 3 amp CMC Felix boards - thanks Brad for the group buy.
(2) Pass & Seymour 8300 MRI-Grey AC receptacles.
A DC blocker courtesy of Gordy.
(1) Volex 17604 (old version) power cord.
Some very nice 12 AWG silver coated copper hook up wire.  Teflon covered of course.
(1) Fuse holder and fuse.
Various screws, metal risers and electrical connectors.

Here are a few pictures from the build.  Thanks a TON Gordy for your patience.

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Felix%20Build/IMG_0632.jpg)

A completed Felix board.  Nice soldering job Gordy.

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Felix%20Build/IMG_0637.jpg)

Gordy back to soldering.  Damn I need a cigarette break.

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Felix%20Build/IMG_0639.jpg)

Completed box top view.  Nice job Gordy!

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Felix%20Build/IMG_0641.jpg)

Finished box, rear view with AC receptacles and power cord.  DC blocker and fuse to left.

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Felix%20Build/IMG_0646.jpg)

Close up of Felix boards and wiring to AC receptacles.  Red wires hot, black neutral and green is ground.  Very clean wiring Gordy!

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Felix%20Build/IMG_0644.jpg)

Here is a side view showing the Felix boards sitting on metal screwed in risers.

The Bud Industries box worked out perfectly providing plenty of space for 4 Felix boards, 2 AC receptacles, wiring, DC blockers, etc.  Gordy used a dremel and template for cutting the AC receptacle and power cord holes.

The build did leave some screw heads on the bottom of the enclosure.  I will be using some footers on the corners to elevate the box and prevent scratching my of my audio rack shelves.

This Felix will be used in my two-channel system for a line stage preamp, turntable, phono preamp, and CD player.  I plan to build two more, one for my HT system and one for my bedroom two channel system.
I think I'll give Gordy a break though, what a great guy!

What do you say Gordy, time for a Philly pretzel break??

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Felix%20Build/IMG_0634.jpg)

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Philistine on 1 Jun 2008, 01:47 pm
Thats a really nice job Gordy made, and great photo's also.  Thanks for posting these.
Having zero soldering and electrical skills I just look on the Felix stuff with envy  :green:

Interesting to get your impression on the sonic performance Nature Boy.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 1 Jun 2008, 03:32 pm
Nice rifle in the background
.22 ?

In holland i would get years of prison for that :(

PS it looks like the box could accommodate 6 Felixes?

nice job :D the box will not shield its innards, no?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 1 Jun 2008, 03:52 pm
Quote
Nice rifle in the background
.22 ?

In holland i would get years of prison for that Sad

PS it looks like the box could accommodate 6 Felixes?

nice job Very Happy the box will not shield its innards, no?

It's BB gun, not a .22. 

The Bud Industries box might accommodate 6 Felix's but you don't want
the CMC's to be too close together.   ABS box will not shield the
innards, but I have it on a separate rack shelf far enough away
from other equipment it doesn't matter.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: SET Man on 1 Jun 2008, 04:15 pm
Hey!

   Wow... that's very neat and clean. :D

  And he even wear an Audio Circle T-shirt while doing it. :lol:

   Good work Gordy :thumb:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 1 Jun 2008, 04:16 pm
Kyrill,

If you want to see a nice rifle, here is my little Thumper.  A 1964 Winchester Model 70 in a 30.06 caliber.  This was my late cousins rifle.  Last year I had Robert W. Hart & Sons install a new stainless steel barrel, Hart trigger set w/ a 3 lbs. pull, and a Maine Vue 3x9 powered scope.  Bobby Hart also accurized the rifle - bedded the barrel, lapping the bolt head, barrel crown, and scope rings.  Bobby also put a custom paint job on the stock for me. This one fine bolt action rifle that I use for deer hunting.

This gun is a real nail tacker. I can put 5 shots inside a 1.5" circle at 200 yards.


(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Winchester%20Model%2070/IMG_0012.jpg)

My Little Thumper

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/roger_jones/Winchester%20Model%2070/IMG_0014.jpg)

Thumper close up of bolt action.

NB

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 1 Jun 2008, 04:52 pm
Very nice, to both your Felix and your Thumper.  '30 odd 6' has some kick.  I have fired one of those once or twice.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BobM on 1 Jun 2008, 05:36 pm
I noticed Gordy used a pair of hemostats during the soldering process. I've also found that these are invaluable when soldering - a highly recommended tool to use.

Good thing too, since many of us just have to clean up the pair we had back in the 70's and put them to good use again.  :thumb:

Enjoy,
Bob
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 1 Jun 2008, 07:24 pm
that is really nice at 200 yards
and wild deer taste like a fine wine
ah well

i am learning to brew my own beer ( that is allowed in my overly ruled little country)
and with the very thorough advises of Wayne ( from Bolder cable)
i gradually learn to  make a tasty beer that will make you miss at 20 yards  :green:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 1 Jun 2008, 07:30 pm
  And he even wear an Audio Circle T-shirt while doing it. :lol:

 :lol:  Roger was wearing the same shirt in blue.  It was an AC kinda day!

I doubt you need to worry about shielding Roger, an inch or two spacing, like we used between coils, should be cool..  Packing the Felix's any closer and I'd definitely think about adding some shielding between them though.

Love to hear your thoughts comparing the Felix's to the Felicia's in the same system!

Gordy

PS - Bob!   :shh:

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BobM on 1 Jun 2008, 07:43 pm
If your packing several chokes together in the same box the common way to align them is at 90 degree angles to each other to avoid interaction, or at least angle them somewhat. Of course with those new project boards that becomes problematic.

I know when I built my Jon Risch filter there was a very noticeable improvement by doing this.

Enjoy,
Bob
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: ecramer on 1 Jun 2008, 08:42 pm
you mean the actually have another use besides the 70's thing  :lol:

I noticed Gordy used a pair of hemostats during the soldering process. I've also found that these are invaluable when soldering - a highly recommended tool to use.

Good thing too, since many of us just have to clean up the pair we had back in the 70's and put them to good use again.  :thumb:

Enjoy,
Bob
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 3 Jun 2008, 03:31 am
Nice work Gordy !!! :beer:

Thanks for the photos Roger.....enjoy !!! :thumb:

                       Chris
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 3 Jun 2008, 03:37 am
Thanks Chris,  Brad's boards make it really clean and easy  8)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: SET Man on 3 Jun 2008, 05:15 am
Hey!

   Man! Seeing you guys building this Felix thingy is making my hands itching!  :icon_lol:

   I think might just have to build one just to cure my itching hands :lol:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 3 Jun 2008, 05:18 am
Hey!

   Man! Seeing you guys building this Felix thingy is making my hands itching!  :icon_lol:

   I think might just have to build one just to cure my itching hands :lol:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

It will come out better Buddy if your wearing an Audio Circle t-shirt.... :wink:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: SET Man on 3 Jun 2008, 05:22 am
Hey!

   Man! Seeing you guys building this Felix thingy is making my hands itching!  :icon_lol:

   I think might just have to build one just to cure my itching hands :lol:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

It will come out better Buddy if your wearing an Audio Circle t-shirt.... :wink:

Hey!

   Yeah, that will do! The same color as the one Gordy wear. :lol:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: SET Man on 4 Jun 2008, 08:38 pm
...A DC blocker courtesy of Gordy.


Hey!

    Gordy, what is this "DC blocker" thingy?

    From the the picture it look like bridged rectifier and caps.

   What improvement of this that you hear using in Felix?

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 4 Jun 2008, 09:09 pm
That's all it is Buddy, a bridge and caps...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14770)

Use the top schematic as the redondo is only 1/2 as effective, I checked them both out using toroids and an electric heater.  The 2 diode drop was very effective, cutting the tranny buzz to almost nothing.  In some thread somewhere Paul mentioned that Felix type conditioners are always more effective with no DC on them, so I've been including the blockers ever since.  Don't quote me on the "always"...  :lol:

I've been using the 35a "E-Bay" bridges and some from one of the excess equipment sites, either Excess Solutions or Illinois?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: SET Man on 5 Jun 2008, 12:02 am
Hey!

  Thanks Gordy. :D That's simple enough.

  But what value are those caps? Anything specific on these caps?

  Talking about Felix.... I just built one last night :wink:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 5 Jun 2008, 12:18 am
Here are my initial impressions of the Felix in my two channel system after
listening to albums and CD's for about 6 hours.

Way lower noise floor.  I can hear much more detail on recordings, especially
very low volume level instruments, noises, etc. which really add to the
enjoyment of songs and instrumental pieces. On live recordings I get a much
more "you are in the room with musicians" sense of the music.

I was very impressed by vinyl playback, especially vocals.  The combination of
the Felix with my new Dynavector P75mkII phono preamp is just killer.  No it doesn't get
rid of pops and clicks on old vinyl, but the dynamics are stunning and I can hear
deeper into the music. 

Well, I have more to add later but I think the Felix is a big step up from
my old Felicia balanced power conditioner.  The Felix is a helluva a lot lighter
and takes up less space too :thumb:

NB   
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Gordy on 5 Jun 2008, 02:28 am
  But what value are those caps? Anything specific on these caps?

  Talking about Felix.... I just built one last night :wink:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

 :oops:  I posted that schematic without looking at it, thought the values were on it.  3.3KuF/35v's work just dandy.  I used Nichi HEM's because they were only a few dollars in lots of 10.  IIRC, the blocker ran about $8-9 total.

 8)  What size did you build?  A whole system or single component size?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: SET Man on 5 Jun 2008, 03:51 am
8)  What size did you build?  A whole system or single component size?

Hey!

  Well, here is it! Tah da!!!!!!!

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2549362685_c89c2ab068_o.jpg)

  The box is 4"x4"x2 1/8" electrical box with cover for one duplex outlet and light switch. There is another cover with open for one duplex but it positioned in the middle and that won't give me room to work with  :icon_lol:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/2549362063_d5641306cb_o.jpg)

  Here at the beginning. Parts layout and dry fitting. The IEC was pretty easy to install since there  is one 3/4" knock out hole on each sides of the box... not a perfect fit but a little help from Dremel it slide in fine. Than I drilled all the holes for the ICE screws, PCB stand off. :D

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2549362233_5b6590070c_o.jpg)

  Using PCB board from Radio Shack and 14ga solid core wire I picked up from Home Depot the same time I picked up the box. Those holes are too small for the legs of the CMC so I did some drilling. The 14ga solid core were a pain to work with in small space. I think I will go for stranded next time.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2550186942_84939310ae_o.jpg)

  Time to stuff it in the box. Yes, those 0.1 and 0.01 caps are the same size... at first I thought they shipped me all the same value but it that wasn't the case. Caps are Vishay. Not easy to route those solid core, took some careful doing so I won't break the solder. There are two stand offs under it, got this from Radio Shack.

  Luckily everything fit! Well I actually picked up the box, cover, and PCB before the caps and CMC arrived. Good thing my measurements is correct  :icon_lol:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2549362557_79d44a9c10_o.jpg)

  Testing for correct AC line wiring.... yes I did test the house's outlet before I plugged in the Felix than testing it. All good! I'm not very happy with that $2.90 outlet on it. I was going to get a orange hospital grade one but look like Home Depot no longer sell these.

  Well, there ya go... my Felix. :D I used it last night and earlier today to feed my TV just to give it a few hours of running in.

   I did put it in my system tonight and yes the sound is better but I will not say much about this right now. Is currently in feeding my TV again just to give it more time :D

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BobM on 5 Jun 2008, 10:27 am
Good job Buddy. Once you pull it off of your TV burn in routine you may find that you will need it back there, so a second Felix may be in the works soon. I know I noticed a nice picture improvement on the TV.

Good luck,
Bob
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 5 Jun 2008, 11:17 am
i have the advantage of living in 230V country
so the Coilcraft P3717-A with its relative hight 25mH and 3A max
gives me 500-600 watts max.
So i use one for my HD-1 projector ( 350 watt)
and wow what a difference it gives. Without the Felix
i could see 30 cm from or closer to the screen ( 2.70 mtr x 1.46mtr) some nervousness
within the pixels.( pixels were not moving at all) . With the Felix, colours were deeper, black blacker and
rock solid pixels. I was amazed. The picture looked in close up like a paper poster..
So the Felix will stay. I also use one for the Blu-ray player and one for the TV digital box.. Also one for the TV downstairs.
One for the preamp, one for the SB3 one for the tuner etc, all my stereo components have their own dedicated Felix
So thx, Paul, Gary, Brad, Josh and all those others. I tried one on my toaster, but could not taste any difference, so i stopped using that one. :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 5 Jun 2008, 10:29 pm
Nice job Buddy :thumb:

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: SET Man on 6 Jun 2008, 02:12 am
Hey!

   Thanks guys. :D It was a fun little project. Luckily everything fit in that 4"x4"x2 1/8" box! BTW... the box is grounded also :D

   Yes, unfortunately I won't have time to really listen to my system for a couple of days  :cry:

   So, I put the Felix back to feed my TV. And maybe it is just my imagination but I do feel that my old 20" flat tube JVC TV picture look better and the the sound... human voice...  is easier to understand. Pretty neat! :D

   Yes, BobM. I might have to build another one just for my TV/second system.  :icon_lol:

   So far I've only heard it in my system from a few hours last night and my impression was very positive on the sound I've heard across the whole frequency band.  But I can't say much about how I really feel about it in my system. I will see and hear more on that next time I'm listening to my system with this in it :D

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jadedavid on 9 Jun 2008, 12:57 am
The felix project looks very interesting and am anxious to build and try one. Kudos to all of you for the info and design. I am also in the process of experimenting with balanced power. I have two transformers, one an iron core and the other a torroid. Have not had the oportunity to hear them both to see if there is a difference sonically. While looking into balanced power I came across the Equi=tech web site. In an article intitled "Lifting the Grounding Enigma" a schematic was referenced [figure 7] that shows a noise filter[?] similar to the felix, however the capacitors went from each 60 volt leg to ground. If I understand how some of you are using the felix with a balanced line it is across the two 60 volt legs. Can anyone shed some light on what the differences between thes two methods might be? Thanks  Dave
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JoshK on 9 Jun 2008, 01:36 am
Dave,

The Equitech filter uses Y (line/neutral to ground) caps where we are using across the line caps (X rated caps).  There are differences.  Occam explained it better than I could and it would be best to look for some of his posts on this topic. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Polarbear on 12 Jun 2008, 10:37 pm
Felix on a stick:

Here is my take at the Felix. I wanted more than one, and decided to build a bunch of them in an outlet box. This should replace my electric pads.

Start with piece of Teak wood.
After some sawing and gluing it turns in to a box:

(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/isbjorn_foto/filter1.jpg)

The schematic was the same as the other Felix's made here.
But after the assemblage it turned in to something from Star Wars :)

(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/isbjorn_foto/filter3.jpg)

Better just glue it into the box:

(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/isbjorn_foto/filter4.jpg)

And a lid has to be made:
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/isbjorn_foto/filter2.jpg)


Finished:
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/isbjorn_foto/filter5.jpg)

The teak wood have a nice glow and appearance. Here's another picture:

(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/isbjorn_foto/filter6.jpg)


As you can see it's a 240V version. (I live in norway)
 
You can see from the pictures, one of the "channels" has a smaller choke. It's for lesser demanding units. Right now it's powering my Squeezebox (linear supply). I have not connected any amps to it yet. Just preamp, SB3 and active filter for the bass.
I'm very happy with it. It seems to me, that there is a blacker background and more details. Also the performance is more relaxed. I'll let it stay in for a couple of days and listen.
Next step is to get some fuses inside it. We'll see later on :)

Cheers

Bjorn
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 12 Jun 2008, 10:43 pm
Hi Bjorn

C37 ( or is it C39) theorie from ennemoser will predict for you it will sound gooood  :thumb: :green: :hyper: :hyper:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Polarbear on 12 Jun 2008, 10:52 pm
Found it: http://www.ennemoser.com/c37theory.html

Yes, I would think so  :D

Bj
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 12 Jun 2008, 11:12 pm
Polarbear,

Welcome to Audiocircle! Nice looking implementation. I'm not familiar with your chokes. Who makes them and what are they. How big to they get when they're fully grown?  :wink: Yeah, I know your current demands are half of ours.....

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Polarbear on 13 Jun 2008, 08:31 am
Hi Paul

Here's the details for the two kinds of Chokes:

http://no.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1191495

http://no.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1191483

Hope it helps.

Cheers
Bj
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nature boy on 30 Jun 2008, 11:20 pm
Here is a nice aluminum project box that will fit two Felix boards and an AC receptacle nicely.  I just picked up another one for Gordy & I to work on.  It's black anodized aluminum.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Aluminum-Project-Box-Enclousure-Case-Electronic-DIY-Big_W0QQitemZ250264290408QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4660QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

There are 4 of these big project boxes left.  I have purchased previously from fan computer on eBay, smooth transaction and these boxes are solid.   Here is a description of the box:

    * 200mm x 145mm x 70mm (8" x 5.7" x 2.8")
    * Heavy gauge extruded aluminum construction
    * Professional black sandblast/matted anodized finish
    * Built-in grooves hold circuit board (see pictures for details)
    * Excellent electromagnetic shielding performance
    * Front and back panels and fasteners are included.

NB
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Syrah on 29 Jul 2008, 06:25 pm
Hey Guys.  Unless I haven't been able to find it, there doesn't seem to be much discussion over which caps are best to use in the Felix.

I am currently using Auricaps 1, 0.1 and 0.01 across the line.  I know, I know, not X rated, running with scissors, tin foil in the microwave...  But I use them after my iso trannie that is fused and switched, so the only time they are fed with current is when I'm in the room + they are in a metal box.

I was going to order some more Auricaps, but I recall Occam having a preference for Jantzen and I read on some cite that Mundorf M-Cap Supreme won some AC shootout.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: whubbard on 28 Aug 2008, 05:53 am
I also was wondering if any of you have used other caps than the Vishays. If so, what caps, and what were you impressions?

-West

p.s. They dont really have to be X2 for me ...  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: panomaniac on 29 Jun 2009, 05:22 pm
I see some darn nice work here guys!  :thumb:

Not having built a Felix myself, I can't really comment too much, but the design looks good.
But I can comment on one commercial power filter I tested that is similar, tho simpler.
I will post a schematic here ASAP.

I took this filter to a buddy's lab who has great measument gear.  We ran spectum analysis of it from 1Hz to 40Mhz.  The testing was both informative and frustrating.
Here is a summary of what we found. (the tests below seem easy, but it took many hours of work).

Plugged into a typical 120V/60Hz noisy AC line, the filter seemed to have almost NO effect.  There was a slightly lower noise circa 10Mhz, maybe -2dB, that's all.  No other real changes anywhere else across the spectrum.  Certainly not any improvement near the audio band.  But as the line noise was constantly changing, it was difficult to compare with and without.  But after numerious tests, we saw no overall improvement.

Then we plugged in a typical SMPS line lump.  More noise on the line, for sure (~80Khz) but the filter did little or nothing to remove it.  Ditto for a fluorecent lamp and some other noise sources.

Next test was to put a heavy load on the filter. We used a 500W oil filled radiator heater.  No change at all.

However - what we did find was this.  If a noisy device was plugged into the filter instead of the AC socket ahead of it, there was a dramatic increase in noise.  The filter was not letting the noise drain back out into the AC mains and away.  There was a slight increase in noise on the mains, so a tiny bit did leak out, but not much.  Maybe a dB or so. Mostly it stayed on the output side of the fitler and was much higher than with no filter.

This showed us that you certainly would NOT want to plug a noisy and a quiet device into a filter like this. The results would be much worse. Apparently the backward impedance of the filter kept noise from being drained away, as it is on a normal AC connection.

Finally in frustration to make the filter do "someting", I plugged in a heat gun ahead of the filter.  The heat gun motor threw tremendous amounts of noise into the AC line, much of it in the audible spectrum.   The filter did do a very nice job of cleaning that up.  At last.

Our conclusions: 
1) This filter did little to no good cleaning up high frequency noise above about 40KHz.
2) The filter prevented noise from draining out into the AC line.  This was NOT good as it meant much more noise at the filter output than with no filter in place.
3) Plugging a noisy and a quiet device into the same filter would be a very bad idea.  More noise for both.
4) The filter was effective at removing motor noise, much of it in the audible band, from the line.  This would be a good use for the filter.

Of course these do NOT apply to the Felix, but are just an example to show that things don't always work as you think they might!
 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 29 Jun 2009, 06:15 pm
Panomanic,

Ummmm..... Welcome to the Lab Circle!  :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

I'm eagerly anticipating additional relevant, conclusive posts from you.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 29 Jun 2009, 06:21 pm
Pano,

Why don't you build a Felix and then run it through these tests? :scratch:

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: panomaniac on 29 Jun 2009, 06:38 pm
Indeed I will.  If I can get access to the same testing equipment. (I've moved since).

My main worry with line filters is the high impedance not letting the noise drain away.  I would be very interested to know if anyone here has tested the Felix in this way.  some of you have the means to do so, right?

I don't want you to think that I'm throwing stones at the Felix, not at all. I thought that was clear.  It was simply meant as a indicator of what to look for when testing line filters.  What we found I did not expect.  I will post a schematic of the filter I tested.  Some of you may say "Oh well, of course it sux."  :nono:  But it is "supposed" to be a good one.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Jason T on 29 Jun 2009, 09:12 pm
I look forward to the results. I have used the Audience adept response 6-T (teflon) it actually made a difference that I could hear and was the first filter I had used to do so.
this is why I am so interested in the Audience style power filters.

I will be running the 3 Felix I'm building on a dedicated 15A gfi breaker.
to bad there is 100' of aluminum badly shielded garbage wire feeding my breaker box  :cry:

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 29 Jun 2009, 09:23 pm
I look forward to the results. I have used the Audience adept response 6-T (teflon) it actually made a difference that I could hear and was the first filter I had used to do so.
this is why I am so interested in the Audience style power filters.

I will be running the 3 Felix I'm building on a dedicated 15A gfi breaker.
too bad there is 100' of aluminum badly shielded garbage wire feeding my breaker box  :cry:

 Maybe not:

"http://6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem5/liveline.html : First, recall the now accepted truism that it's not the miles of power distribution wiring that precede your wall plug which matter. It's those last few feet inside your upgraded power cords. That's what your gear "sees"; not the crap outside your house all the way back to the power utility plant.In Franck's view, the same applies to signal cable. It's the ends that matter."
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Jason T on 29 Jun 2009, 10:03 pm
I look forward to the results. I have used the Audience adept response 6-T (teflon) it actually made a difference that I could hear and was the first filter I had used to do so.
this is why I am so interested in the Audience style power filters.

I will be running the 3 Felix I'm building on a dedicated 15A gfi breaker.
too bad there is 100' of aluminum badly shielded garbage wire feeding my breaker box  :cry:

 Maybe not:

"http://6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem5/liveline.html : First, recall the now accepted truism that it's not the miles of power distribution wiring that precede your wall plug which matter. It's those last few feet inside your upgraded power cords. That's what your gear "sees"; not the crap outside your house all the way back to the power utility plant.In Franck's view, the same applies to signal cable. It's the ends that matter."


and that's exactly what every manufacture of power cables wants you to think :)

the electronic engineer's I have spoken to that aren't in this business put it quite simply.

100ft of 14gauge romex with a 3ft $1000 power cable at the end is now 103ft of 14 gauge romex.
this is why power filtering and regeneration is so important.
but I dont want to start this debate here  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: panomaniac on 29 Jun 2009, 11:17 pm
Here is the schema of the line filter I tested.  You see, not as nice as the Felix.
The goofy looking Z things are MOVs.   The cap values are small, like 220pF.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=19980)
The inductors are beefy, look like 15A or more, but the values are a fraction of the ones you use.  The ground inductor is smaller in size. There is a fuse (not shown) in the load line.
So I would say, this is NOT the way to go.
Similar tests of the Felix would be most interesting.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Jason T on 30 Jun 2009, 12:04 am
Thanks for that info it's good to know.
I ordered my parts for 3 Felix filters :) and cant wait to build

I appreciate the effort put into this by the smart guys  :icon_lol:

thanks
 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 30 Jun 2009, 12:16 am
Panomaniac,

I assume that design is an example of 'horses for courses', but for the life of me, I can't discern what course that horse is supposed to be running. Given the positioning of the capacitors, its designed more to keep noise from going through rather than noise 'backwashing'. Caps in front of the non-ground inductors could adress that somewhat.

The line and neutral inductors are typical for differential/transverse mode noise filtering, but the caps are configured for common mode noise filtering. Its neither fish nor fowl. Those 'Y' caps are constrained in value due to leakage to ground considerations. To improve differential mode attenuation one could add an 'X' cap, accross hot and neutral, sized to minimize Q peaks under some assumed minimal load.

Quote
But it is "supposed" to be a good one.
That might well be; but I can't discern for what.

The Felix is a very different topology, using a Common Mode Choke alone for attenuation of yup, common mode noise, and those CMCs are specifically chosen for their high leakage inductance, which in conjunction with the X caps address transverse/differential mode noise. One could add Y caps to the Felix design, but the increased leakage currents, IMO, cause more trouble that the benefits they might provide. YMMV

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: panomaniac on 30 Jun 2009, 02:27 am
Given the positioning of the capacitors, its designed more to keep noise from going through rather than noise 'backwashing'.

And it's not very good at either.

Quote
Its neither fish nor fowl.

I certainly have to agree there.  :lol:  But no need to go any further with this one.
Suffice to say that not all designs are good, or suited to audio.
My worry about the high "backward impedance" still stands for any filter tho.  I will certainly test a Felix if I can.  If no one beats me to it.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 30 Jun 2009, 04:50 am
Here is the schema of the line filter I tested.  You see, not as nice as the Felix.
The goofy looking Z things are MOVs.   The cap values are small, like 220pF.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=19980)
The inductors are beefy, look like 15A or more, but the values are a fraction of the ones you use.  The ground inductor is smaller in size. ....

Upon further reflection, I've concluded it is both fish and fowl, a Chimera actaully. What you've posted is an incorrectly labeled, redrawn schematic for a output filter for the 2 dc outputs from a switching supply. Possibly a split dc supply.  Indeed someone has told someone, somewhere in its circuitous oral history that it is a good filter, but, its not one designed for single phase Mains AC. It is 2 totally separate filters designed for 2 independant dc outputs from a switching supply. If it were for AC it would use X caps. Assuming this is an actual commercial product, rather than some mutant, you'll also find that the capacitors values are possibly more likely to be 220uf (thats microFarads) rather than 220pf. And if so, they're probably electrolytics that you've blow 'open' electrically, as well as the low voltage MOVs.

Do me a favor, please post the manufacturer's name and the filter' model designator. I'll track that sumbitch down.

Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it....
Now, I've gotta ask you - Have you been yanking my chain?
Is this some sort cruel supernerd prank? If so, it was actually quite a good one. :P

FWIW,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 30 Jun 2009, 10:44 am
I look forward to the results. I have used the Audience adept response 6-T (teflon) it actually made a difference that I could hear and was the first filter I had used to do so. this is why I am so interested in the Audience style power filters.  I will be running the 3 Felix I'm building on a dedicated 15A gfi breaker. too bad there is 100' of aluminum badly shielded garbage wire feeding my breaker box  :cry:  Maybe not:  "http://6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem5/liveline.html : First, recall the now accepted truism that it's not the miles of power distribution wiring that precede your wall plug which matter. It's those last few feet inside your upgraded power cords. That's what your gear "sees"; not the crap outside your house all the way back to the power utility plant.In Franck's view, the same applies to signal cable. It's the ends that matter."
  and that's exactly what every manufacture of power cables wants you to think :)  the electronic engineer's I have spoken to that aren't in this business put it quite simply.  100ft of 14gauge romex with a 3ft $1000 power cable at the end is now 103ft of 14 gauge romex. this is why power filtering and regeneration is so important. I completely agree, nice chords do not change the garbage but do not add to the garbage. Somehow the last feet that do not add lessen the subjective experience of the garbage.  with line conditioner followed by good sounding PWC is the way to go but I dont want to start this debate here  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: panomaniac on 30 Jun 2009, 03:06 pm
No Joke at all!  I drew that schema from the actual part.  Pretty simple, so I think I got it right.  Will double check.

I will NOT post the name of the manufacturer, that would not be fair.  But if you PM me, I'll provide details and photos.  The strange thing is, I can't find it on their website, what they have there looks better suited.  But 'nuff said.  Best to take this private.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Jason T on 30 Jun 2009, 09:51 pm
I look forward to the results. I have used the Audience adept response 6-T (teflon) it actually made a difference that I could hear and was the first filter I had used to do so. this is why I am so interested in the Audience style power filters.  I will be running the 3 Felix I'm building on a dedicated 15A gfi breaker. too bad there is 100' of aluminum badly shielded garbage wire feeding my breaker box  :cry:  Maybe not:  "http://6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem5/liveline.html : First, recall the now accepted truism that it's not the miles of power distribution wiring that precede your wall plug which matter. It's those last few feet inside your upgraded power cords. That's what your gear "sees"; not the crap outside your house all the way back to the power utility plant.In Franck's view, the same applies to signal cable. It's the ends that matter."
  and that's exactly what every manufacture of power cables wants you to think :)  the electronic engineer's I have spoken to that aren't in this business put it quite simply.  100ft of 14gauge romex with a 3ft $1000 power cable at the end is now 103ft of 14 gauge romex. this is why power filtering and regeneration is so important. I completely agree, nice chords do not change the garbage but do not add to the garbage. Somehow the last feet that do not add lessen the subjective experience of the garbage.  with line conditioner followed by good sounding PWC is the way to go but I dont want to start this debate here  :icon_twisted:


LOL Well put sir  :D

and my Felix project will be done in about a week ! :)

I'll post a few pics once I finish it
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 26 Jul 2009, 07:00 pm
Jason,

Have you finished your Felix project yet? Pics?

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Jason T on 26 Jul 2009, 10:12 pm
Roy

I have them put together.
they are "in-line" on some of my power cords right now.
I haven't found any cases that I felt compelled to put them in yet :(

the wire I'm using is a silver plater high strand count 12 gauge and is probably temporary and no it isnt rated for 110V but who cares  :icon_twisted:

any ideas on good looking cheap project boxes ?
I would like to do one box that will hold all 3 filters and 3 receptacles.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20687)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20688)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 27 Jul 2009, 02:09 pm
Jason,

Those look nice and compact integrated into your power cords. Any comments on the how they affected the sound quality? I have one Felix installed in front of my Acopian power supply for a Bolder SB3. I did notice an improvement in the SQ but a hum emanates from the PS but not from the speakers. I presume a DC blocker on the neutral line would eliminate it so that's on my to do list. I also intend to install a Felix on the output side of the Acopian.

I also intend to build a Felix power strip. I'll use acrylic and some Bird-eye Maple to build the project box. I just need to gather all the electrical parts to complete the project.

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: dogorman on 27 Jul 2009, 06:18 pm
I just bought all the parts to make a four-outlet felix with dc-blocker, in a double-insulated chassis, and I have some naive questions for the room -- some of which are probably *really* naive, so forgive me.

1) I can figure out how to connect everything except the bridge rectifier for the dc-blocker, and its associated caps. The diagram that gets reproduced in here from time to time (you know, the one with the four arrowheads) doesn't actually enlighten me as to where to solder the hookup wire, and where not to.

2) I'm going with a double-insulated chassis to reduce the risk of electrocuting myself: all-aluminum inside and plastic of some sort (buddy industries) on the outside. Which means at some point I'll need a nudge in the right direction as to how to machine the holes to exacting tolerances, and also how to connect the two chassis to each other. Glue?

3) Can mounting bosses be added after-the-fact to a project enclosure that doesn't already have them? If so, how are they sized by the hobbiest to make an ideal fit and how are they affixed to the inside of the enclosure?

4) Is there anything like heat shrink that can be used to cover a non-radial area of exposed wire? Say, for example, one ends up with a T-junction that has been soldered, and wants to insulate the whole junction -- is there something that can be "wrapped" around the t-junction and then sealed a la heat shrink?

5) Can I use glue to hold the capacitors and the cmc's to the perf boards? If so, what kind?

6) Are any of you free two weeks from this coming Saturday, to deliver the eulogy?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Jason T on 27 Jul 2009, 06:22 pm
A quieter background is all I have noticed so far.
the difference was minimal but probably well worth the money spent.
I'm going to get them in a box with a dedicated 8awg line run to the box then distributed with 12awg stranded cable to the 3 felix filters inside and then again with 12awg to the outlets.
I'm probably going WAY overboard here but what the heck you only live once right :)
hopefully I'll notice a bigger difference once I get my cheap APC filter/power bar out of the way :)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Dougl on 1 Aug 2009, 05:01 pm
Quote
1) I can figure out how to connect everything except the bridge rectifier for the dc-blocker, and its associated caps. The diagram that gets reproduced in here from time to time (you know, the one with the four arrowheads) doesn't actually enlighten me as to where to solder the hookup wire, and where not to.

The Standard way to understand a circuit is to redraw it differently.
The Circuit in 1363 B was drawn to emphasize that there were 2 redundant paths, not for wiring clarity.  This is a valid choice, but doesn't help you much.
Do not think of this as a bridge rectifier.  It can't be built from one., and the results are different.  The B "single diode drop" is 4 diodes in parallel, 2 facing each way, with 4 bypass caps.  its a 2 node circuit. 

HTH

Doug
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: yan6 on 16 Aug 2009, 03:47 pm
Hi there, I just built my felix supply, it has four split outlets (8 felix circuits). The sound improvement was surprising to me, it sounds much nicer. However the circuit my amp is on is making a large hmmmm-ing sound, similar to a large power transformer. Has anyone else experienced this, is there anything that can be done to eliminate this. I have used the recommended parts: P3717A coils with the recommended Vishay caps.

cheers,

Ryan
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 16 Aug 2009, 04:23 pm
You need to insert a DC blocker into the neutral line. These diagrams are copied from an earlier post in this thread. I've built a Felix too and have experienced the hum. Others have said that you need the DC blocker to get rid of the hum and in order experience the full improvement in sound quality. I still haven't gotten around to building the blockers. I still not sure what would be the appropriate values for  the capacitors.

Perhaps someone would come forward to give the correct cap values.

-Roy

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14770)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: yan6 on 16 Aug 2009, 05:48 pm
Thanks for the replies, I wondered if something like explanation #2 was occurring. My amp is a Marantz SR4600 specs say 314W on 120V, which puts it in at 2.62A; Still below the 3A rms, but close. I will be building a tube buffed gainclone this fall, which should draw less than the Marantz

When I'm done my vacation I will take it to work and put the scope on it to see if there is any DC. I would like to build the DC blocker anyways any cap values for the blocker?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 16 Aug 2009, 05:52 pm
You might try here for an example of dc blocker from Per Anders

http://sjostromaudio.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=27&limit=1&limitstart=1 (http://sjostromaudio.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=27&limit=1&limitstart=1)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: yan6 on 16 Aug 2009, 05:55 pm
Ha! P-A, I'm dealing with him these days on a group buy that went bad on the other forum.

Cheers
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 16 Aug 2009, 05:57 pm
Well my point was you were looking for example values and there they are...
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: yan6 on 16 Aug 2009, 06:03 pm
Oh, I should have used more words. He is a great guy, he stepped up to rescue the group buy. He has saved many people a lot of money by taking it on.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 16 Aug 2009, 06:49 pm
 I'm using the Coilcraft 3717A in front of an Acopian 5V 3.5 amp power supply that I use for my Bolder SB3. It hums. :( Do I need a larger coil for this or would a DC blocker be the cure? What would be the cap values for a DC blocker?

I also use a felix(8177RC JW Miller) in front of my Mhdt Constantine DAC where it made a noticeable improvement but it hums too.

BTW  I'm using a Felix on the DC output of the Acopian that I built with audiophool caps. The verdict on this is still uncertain. I'm still experimenting. :green:
I just used some caps I had laying around: 2.2uf Obbligato PIOs, 0.1uf Russian teflons, .01 Russian teflons. (http://lh3.ggpht.com/_e4Py2CyXq_E/SohSocNN-lI/AAAAAAAAAkE/eD1Tc6FkR4c/s720/P1070382.JPG)

Don't laugh :oops: but it's not as dangerous as it looks. In fact I've probably put about 50 hours on this setup. Finishing details and enclosure will follow. Any implementation comments/advise would be appreciated

Roy

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 16 Aug 2009, 06:58 pm
Your power supply only requires power of about 20w so I would think that coil should be just fine.  Unfortunately there's only a couple ways to find out about the DC, measure it as Occam said with a scope or just build up a basic DC blocker and see what happens.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 16 Aug 2009, 08:10 pm
Good greif Raj,

You're humiliating those capacitors. :lol:
For that level of audiphiliac obscession, I'd expect the dc filter to cook breakfast, complete with cappucino.
Forget the DC filter's  front end caps (at this point in the power supply chain you're not concerned with noise coming out towards the ac line) and use something like 2 or 3 paralleled 10uf Vishay MKT1822 or Rifa MMT 50volt caps, or if you must be all audiophile, an appropriate voltage < 50uf Blackgate electrolytic. I simply use a 33uf 35v Panasonic FM electrolytic. Using large caps with long wire leads compromises much of their intrisic qualities for this use because of the necessary long leads with their comparitive high inductance.


Ryan,

The anti-paralled electroytic caps need to be rated above the two diodes drop, so conseratively, a minimum of 6.3v, which is what Brystron uses. Their size must be able to pass the peak current draw which would vary according to the system draw. Anything above around 8,200uf each would work for a smaller system, where for a larger system using most of a 20 amp circuit's capability would need around 33,000uf.

Regardless of whether you actually have DC superimposed on your AC lines (or loose windings/laminations), I'd recommend a a larger current capability CMC on your amp. Comparing the current draw of your component (by whatever calculation) to the nominal rating of a CMC isn't simple. The rating is typically for a given temperature rise, 35C above ambient, for a given RMS current draw. An amp typically is far from a sinusoidial current draw.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: peranders on 16 Aug 2009, 09:25 pm
Occam, have you thought of that if you really want 20 A through your mains wires you probably won't hear the transformer hum. A design rule would possibly to have caps which can handle the current at least.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: peranders on 16 Aug 2009, 09:27 pm
Oh, I should have used more words. He is a great guy, he stepped up to rescue the group buy. He has saved many people a lot of money by taking it on.
Thanks, but I think you should wait and see how it goes. I have saved some at least but I'll hope everything. :dunno:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 17 Aug 2009, 08:04 pm
Good greif Raj,

You're humiliating those capacitors. :lol:
For that level of audiphiliac obscession, I'd expect the dc filter to cook breakfast, complete with cappucino.
Forget the DC filter's  front end caps (at this point in the power supply chain you're not concerned with noise coming out towards the ac line) and use something like 2 or 3 paralleled 10uf Vishay MKT1822 or Rifa MMT 50volt caps, or if you must be all audiophile, an appropriate voltage < 50uf Blackgate electrolytic. I simply use a 33uf 35v Panasonic FM electrolytic. Using large caps with long wire leads compromises much of their intrisic qualities for this use because of the necessary long leads with their comparitive high inductance.





Hi Paul,

Well....I guess I'll start over again. :oops: :x
Did you notice an improvement when you installed the Felix in the DC output of your SB power supply? Nobody else has given a review of this particular application of the Felix.

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BobM on 17 Aug 2009, 08:13 pm
I recently built another Feliz to use on my LCD flat panel TV in the bedroom. I've been meaning to do this for some time now but never got around to it. I do have one on the main plasma in the living room and noticed a nice improvement there.

Now the LCD I have in the bedroom is a no-name brand with a so-so picture. It is not the main TV so I never gave it a whole lot of thought and just thought it was a cheapo LCD. Well the Felix changed that in a big way. The improvement was fairly dramatic. If you haven't put one of these on your flat panel TV then you really don't know what you are missing.

There is a buzz coming from the transformer when the TV is turned on. Perhaps it is streeing a little because of the draw, or perhaps the coils are not wound as tightly as they could be. So it could be a mechanical buzz that a little silicone or Gorilla Glue would cure. Don't know, but don;t care too much either since its very low and inaudible unless your ear is right next to it.

Enjoy,
Bob
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 17 Aug 2009, 10:46 pm
Thanks for the replies, I wondered if something like explanation #2 was occurring. My amp is a Marantz SR4600 specs say 314W on 120V, which puts it in at 2.62A; Still below the 3A rms, but close. I will be building a tube buffed gainclone this fall, which should draw less than the Marantz
When I'm done my vacation I will take it to work and put the scope on it to see if there is any DC. I would like to build the DC blocker anyways any cap values for the blocker?

You can only convert Watts to Volt/Amps when the load is a resistor.  For a modern receiver and even more so a receiver with a SMPS or other high tech power supply (aka Carver).  The peak current may be surprisingly high! If you have an AC current probe for that O-scope at work, take a look at the AC line current peaks and let us know, I'm sure that it will be interesting.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 17 Aug 2009, 11:11 pm
I believe that have I inquired several times and several other posters too about what caps would be appropriate to use for a DC blocker for the Felix project group buy transformers. Can someone please give a recommendation or at least state what value caps they used for their DC blockers?

Thanks,

Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: peranders on 18 Aug 2009, 04:40 am
You should not draw current through the diodes so the voltage drop over the cap should be less than 0.6 V.

C = U/(2*∏*I)

U = diode voltage drop or zener voltage
I = current

The cap value should be > 10000 uF
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 18 Aug 2009, 04:44 am
Thank you, peranders :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kp93300 on 29 Aug 2009, 04:12 am
Hope more experienced diyer can enlighten me.

I build a Felix and it seems to work well in a Tripath amp.
I am wondering whether the values of the caps need to be symmetrical on both sides of the choke?
What about using 1 uF or higher  X2 caps?
Will be be better to have numerous different  values on both sides of the choke ?
Thanks
kp93300
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kp93300 on 10 Sep 2009, 03:32 pm
Hi
I hope someone can answer my questions.
Is there any reason I cannot  try higher value caps such as 10 to 100 uF X2 caps ?
Thanks
kp93300
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mgalusha on 10 Sep 2009, 03:42 pm
I have used 1uF X2 caps but if I remember correctly that was the largest one listed when I purchased mine.

Assuming you can get X2 caps larger than 1uF, I'm sure there are limitations as to how big an across the line cap can be but I'm not any sort of expert in that area. I have no doubt someone here will have knowledge of this and hopefully will chime in.

mike

Hi
I hope someone can answer my questions.
Is there any reason I cannot  try higher value caps such as 10 to 100 uF X2 caps ?
Thanks
kp93300
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 20 Oct 2010, 01:29 pm
A thread from the graveyard -

I am going to build a pair of Felixes thanks to some folks here with parts and my own resourcefulness.  They should be bada$$ for sure with copper plugs, steel cases, ERS cloth, spiked feet, etc.  Just procuring the parts now to make a pair for future monoblocks.  Also am going to re-wire my dedicated circuit to add a run to the opposite wall so I can use shorter PC's.

Thanks to the nice photos and groovy schematic this device looks like an easy project and I hope to do you all proud.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Oct 2010, 01:34 pm
A thread from the graveyard -
Thanks to the nice photos and groovy schematic

I was speaking with someone about this last night.  Can you post the post #'s for the photos and schematic? 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 20 Oct 2010, 01:48 pm
By the way, you don't really need the PC boards from the group buy.  It's almost easier hard wiring them to the back of the outlets.  A few guys did that somewhere in this thread and it worked out great.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 20 Oct 2010, 01:53 pm
By the way, you don't really need the PC boards from the group buy.  It's almost easier hard wiring them to the back of the outlets.  A few guys did that somewhere in this thread and it worked out great.

Agree, and when you see the photos you'll know why.

I was speaking with someone about this last night.  Can you post the post #'s for the photos and schematic? 

I'll look in my History log.  I copied and pasted all the photos into PowerPoint yesterday.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 20 Oct 2010, 02:19 pm
Post 155 and 160 is one method:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51941.140#lastPost

Post 195 with pcb's:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.180

Post 58 hardwiring and Post 20 for the schematic:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50284.40


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37429)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 20 Oct 2010, 02:37 pm
Note that CMC selection depends on how much current you need.  More isn't really better for lower power equipment as the filtering is improved with a smaller choke.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 20 Oct 2010, 02:44 pm
Quoted GBB:

"I listed the CMC part number.  A quick google search would have turned up the following data from Coilcraft's website.  Use the CMC with the appropriate ratings for your application.  As others have noted, the current draw of the Squeezebox is minimal, so the 3717 seemed like the right choice here.
---Gary


               Common        Diff.          DCR          Volt.          Amp.
               Mode L         Mode L
P3717-A    25.0            1000          0.30         1500             3
Q4007-A    4.5              150           0.06         1500             5
Q4018-A    1.5               35            0.02         1500            10"
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tull skull on 20 Oct 2010, 06:57 pm

Hey would these work for your projects? Not sure if price is too much but they look pretty nice!


http://www.vt4c.com/shop/program/main.php?cat_id=1038&group_id=2&hit_cat=
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Oct 2010, 03:54 pm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37429)

This is really it?  Pick the appropriate Coilcraft and follow this print?  Use the same cap values for any Coilcraft module? 

What brand caps are most guys using?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 31 Oct 2010, 04:10 pm
I've built three Felix'es using the recommended parts. Now I'd like to build some more but using the very best AC rated caps and chokes. Does anybody have some ideas/suggestions for better parts or other possible tweaks?

-Roy (back from vacation) :D
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 31 Oct 2010, 04:50 pm
Caps need to be AC rated, not just for voltage, but for failure mode across the power line (X1, X2) and/or from line to ground.   Not always true for boutique caps.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 31 Oct 2010, 05:06 pm
Quote
It would be crazy expensive but http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap_platinum.htm

This is my concern though.  I'm not so sure that these caps would net a sonic difference.  Anyone?

An imprudent choice for an X cap. Its low dc voltage rating makes it inappropriate for use across a 120vac line. It wouldn't come close to satisfying X2 requirements.
An X2 cap, rated for 250vac typically has a dc rating of 1400vdc to 2400vdc. Audience does use their 600vdc, not X2 approved, Teflon film caps in their North American Adept-T conditioners, but lacking a sufficiently high Vdc rated Teflon, do not offer a 240vac international version,
I'd think it would sound very good subjectively, prior to its failure.

FWIW,
Paul


Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Oct 2010, 05:09 pm
Ahh.  OK.

Can anyone post some links for the recommended caps then? 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 31 Oct 2010, 05:12 pm
I would look at the group buy thread.

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Oct 2010, 05:18 pm
I would look at the group buy thread.

-Jim

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51941.0

It would be really nice if the PCB's were still available.   :(
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 31 Oct 2010, 06:04 pm
Here's how AC member Jason of Virtue Audio did it several years ago. It might be difficult to integrate a DC blocker into this configuration though.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20687)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20688)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Oct 2010, 06:16 pm
It might be difficult to integrate a DC blocker into this configuration though.

Is the DC blocker absolutely necessary?  Have you guys found it to be needed on certain equipment?  Or...?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 31 Oct 2010, 06:27 pm
Anybody used this on their poweramps? I've only implemented them in linestages, dac, and other low level devices.

Thinking about it for my SDS 254 amp.

As for higher end caps, the only other one I can think of are the Mundorf Supreme variety where some are 800VAC/1200V DC rated. Others are only 425VAC/800VDC rated. Still not sure if that's enough though to qualify.

Anand.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 31 Oct 2010, 06:51 pm
I'm interested in integrating Felixes into new powercords for my rebuilt Heathkit W5m monoblocks. I figure that if I'm going to build these, I might as well use the best parts available....within reason, of course.

Presently, I'm using them with my DAC and Bolder SB3. I have one that hasn't been implemented yet. I did notice improved SQ.

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Oct 2010, 07:35 pm
Is this the most current PCB?


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37978)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 31 Oct 2010, 07:52 pm
That's it!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mgalusha on 31 Oct 2010, 07:53 pm
Yes, that is the only PCB that was manufactured for the group buy that Brad Judy did.

It's nearly as easy to use perf board and you can end up with a better result since the lead lengths can be shorter. While the phenolic stuff from Radio Shack is serviceable, All Electronics (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ECS-1/SOLDERABLE-PERF-BOARD-1-HOLE-PAD//1.html) has some nice pad per hole fiberglass boards for $6.25ea and you could probably squeeze three from one board.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37981)

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 31 Oct 2010, 08:03 pm
Can I pot the whole entire assembly? 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 31 Oct 2010, 08:44 pm
You definitely don't need the PCB to build this.  In fact, I can't think of an easier build without using one...there's not much to it.

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 31 Oct 2010, 09:36 pm
Here is a list of all the parts that fit the PCB or if you are just interested in the recommended parts:

Capacitors: Two choices

Vishay/Roederstein F1778 X2 set of two 1.0 uF, two 0.1 uF and two 0.01 uF - $6.50/set
Vishay/BC MKP 338 X1 set of two 1.0 uF, two 0.1 uF and two 0.01 uF - $9/set

Common Mode Chokes: Two brands, multiple choices

CoilCraft Combination common and differential mode chokes (all three in this series fit the board):

P3717-A - 25mH 3A - $7.25
Q4007-A - 4.5mH 5A - $8.25
Q4018-A - 1.5mH 10A - $9.50

JW Miller 8100 series common mode chokes (models 8109 through 8118 fit the board)

8117-RC - 36mH 2.9A - $9
8111-RC - 12mH 4A - $7
8118-RC - 7.3mH 9.3A - $9

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 2 Nov 2010, 10:04 pm
Can one of you just confirm these for me?  I just want to make sure I get the correct ones the first time.   :thumb:

And if so, someone else will have the links.   :)

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/83577-cap-film-mkp-1uf-310vac-x2-20-bfc233826104.html
 
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/85251-cap-film-mkp-1uf-310vac-x2-20-bfc233820105.html
 
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/85249-cap-film-mkp-01uf-310vac-x2-20-bfc233820103.html
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: *Scotty* on 2 Nov 2010, 11:08 pm
They all have an x2 rating which means they are appropriate for the application across the hot to neutral lines.
Scotty
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Nov 2010, 12:19 am
They all have an x2 rating which means they are appropriate for the application across the hot to neutral lines.
Scotty

OK.  So you're saying these are the proper ones?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 3 Nov 2010, 01:45 am
OK.  So you're saying these are the proper ones?

Define proper.  They are x2 rated caps.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Nov 2010, 01:48 am
Define proper.  They are x2 rated caps.

recommended for this project.  The "best"!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: *Scotty* on 3 Nov 2010, 02:05 am
This is the series that was originally speced,I don't know which is best sonically speaking.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_supplier_id=56&WT.z_page_type=SP&WT.z_page_sub_type=SS&WT.z_oss_type=Keyword&v=56&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=Vishay%2FBC+MKP+338+X1&x=8&y=10
Scotty
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Nov 2010, 02:12 am
This is the series that was originally speced,I don't know which is best sonically speaking.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_supplier_id=56&WT.z_page_type=SP&WT.z_page_sub_type=SS&WT.z_oss_type=Keyword&v=56&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=Vishay%2FBC+MKP+338+X1&x=8&y=10
Scotty

Thanks.  Hmmm.  I might have to call my Vishay contact on this one.   :scratch:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 3 Nov 2010, 12:36 pm
Where did the name Felix come from?  The Cat?  Why?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Nov 2010, 12:24 pm
Here is the answer from my Vishay contact.

The 338 1-serie is an X1 cap 440Vac

The 338 2-serie is an X2 cap 310Vac

 

Both series are not the same.

The 338 1-serie is used in industrial applications (3 phase)

When the 338 2-serie is for standard applications (1 phase)

 

See also the RFI application note


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38341)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38342)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38343)


If you would like the PDF emailed to you just email me.  My email is in my profile. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 9 Nov 2010, 03:09 pm
Where did the name Felix come from?  The Cat?  Why?

The original Lab power conditioner project was called Felicia, in honor of JoshK's wife. Based upon Jon Risch's Q&D digital filter, it used surplus back to back transformers to supply filtered balanced power to source components < 100va. The follow up project, less limited in current capabilities, smaller, using off the shelf parts, and with overall better performance was simply given the masculine version of the name Felicia, Felix.
Quote
Feยทlixโ€‚ โ€‚
[fee-liks]
โ€“noun
a male given name: from a Latin word meaning โ€œhappy, lucky.โ€

Felicitations,
Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 9 Nov 2010, 03:34 pm
The X1 rating is implicitly higher than an X2's, and an X1 can be used anywhere an X2 is called for. The reverse is not true. This would provide a higher in circuit dV/dt from the X1 cap assuming equal dV/dt s at rated voltages.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: S Clark on 9 Nov 2010, 04:58 pm
Quoted GBB:

"I listed the CMC part number.  A quick google search would have turned up the following data from Coilcraft's website.  Use the CMC with the appropriate ratings for your application.  As others have noted, the current draw of the Squeezebox is minimal, so the 3717 seemed like the right choice here.
---Gary


               Common        Diff.          DCR          Volt.          Amp.
               Mode L         Mode L
P3717-A    25.0            1000          0.30         1500             3
Q4007-A    4.5              150           0.06         1500             5
Q4018-A    1.5               35            0.02         1500            10"

I'm late coming to this thread.  I just checked CoilCraft and they have the P3717-a on backorder.  Obviously there are other options, but not understanding what they do, I am reluctant to substitute.  What if the effect of changing values?
Scott
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 9 Nov 2010, 05:00 pm
You want part # P3717-AL that is the RoHs part #.

That's why it's on backorder.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: S Clark on 9 Nov 2010, 05:12 pm
You want part # P3717-AL that is the RoHs part #.

That's why it's on backorder.
Thanks- order placed  :D
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: samsagaz on 11 Nov 2010, 01:50 am
where can i puchase others  P3717-AL or sustitutes (cheap ones)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: S Clark on 11 Nov 2010, 01:53 am
Coilcraft.com
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Mravinsky on 12 Nov 2010, 10:08 am
Scott. Have you ordered a 36 pcs tray (of Coilcraft p-3717)? If so, could you sell me 5 of them?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 12 Nov 2010, 12:11 pm
Scott. Have you ordered a 36 pcs tray (of Coilcraft p-3717)? If so, could you sell me 5 of them?

You know that you can purchase as little as you like.  RIght?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: S Clark on 12 Nov 2010, 02:15 pm
Scott. Have you ordered a 36 pcs tray (of Coilcraft p-3717)? If so, could you sell me 5 of them?
Sorry, I just order one to build out one Felix and see if it does what I am looking for.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 14 Nov 2010, 02:34 pm
The original Lab power conditioner project was called Felicia, in honor of JoshK's wife. Based upon Jon Risch's Q&D digital filter, it used surplus back to back transformers to supply filtered balanced power to source components < 100va. The follow up project, less limited in current capabilities, smaller, using off the shelf parts, and with overall better performance was simply given the masculine version of the name Felicia, Felix.
Felicitations,
Paul

Thank ya Paul!  I was going to go and make a label for my Felix unit using Felix the cat photo.  Not that it has anything to do with this but it looks cool.

I finished the first unit this morning after delays from other projects.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 14 Nov 2010, 02:36 pm
I finished the first unit this morning after delays from other projects.

PICS!!!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 14 Nov 2010, 02:55 pm
PICS!!!   :thumb:

You bet. Let me see if I can get that label made.  I have some printer compatible label sheets somewhere.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 14 Nov 2010, 03:46 pm
Photos here.  I was going to use some water soluble decal material but opted for standard inkjet label.

The outlet is a Maestro, the cover plate is from Hong Kong, the 12 ga wire was lying around, the IEC is a Furutech F11?, the components are from the parts list, and the damping material is one that mjsoef found for another project.

The cases are from Ebay and are steel made by an Ohio company.  Thought they were cool looking and they are nice and heavy.  The feet are from Ebay site for Adona racks.  I wired in a small blue light after the fuse block for a touch of coolness.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38577)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38578)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38579)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38580)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38581)


I have to wire the second unit yet as I am planning on mono-blocks in the spring.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: panomaniac on 14 Nov 2010, 03:50 pm
Very Groovy!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 14 Nov 2010, 03:55 pm
Good job! :thumb: When are you going into commercial production :)?

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Hap on 14 Nov 2010, 04:53 pm
Photos here.  I was going to use some water soluble decal material but opted for standard inkjet label.

The outlet is a Maestro, the cover plate is from Hong Kong, the 12 ga wire was lying around, the IEC is a Furutech F11?, the components are from the parts list, and the damping material is one that mjsoef found for another project.

The cases are from Ebay and are steel made by an Ohio company.  Thought they were cool looking and they are nice and heavy.  The feet are from Ebay site for Adona racks.  I wired in a small blue light after the fuse block for a touch of coolness.

I have to wire the second unit yet as I am planning on mono-blocks in the spring.

Nice Job with your Felix project...
You may want to confirm this against the original schematic; believe Occam noted the smallest value caps should be placed nerast to the CMC, followed by  the progressivly larger values.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 14 Nov 2010, 04:54 pm
nice.

and the sonic result?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 14 Nov 2010, 04:56 pm
nice.

and the sonic result?

I have no preamp now so no idea.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 14 Nov 2010, 05:02 pm
Nice Job with your Felix project...
You may want to confirm this against the original schematic; believe Occam noted the smallest value caps should be placed nerast to the CMC, followed by  the progressivly larger values.
Cheers.

That's correct. I have a completed group buy Felix in front of me and the smallest caps are sequentially  closest to the CMC.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 14 Nov 2010, 05:11 pm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38577)

I love it!!!  8)

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 14 Nov 2010, 07:38 pm
Are the CMC and caps polarized?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 14 Nov 2010, 10:08 pm
The requisite X2 (and higher - X1,Y1,Y1) are all non polarized [we're working in AC here] metalized caps [There are ceramic, non polarized, rated suppression caps, but ...]. Common mode chokes are not polarized (leastwise not the same ways as an electrolytic capacitor) but wiring convention must be observed for it to work properly, with the same attention paid that you would a transformer.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18529)
 Note - the above is a DC application, quite useful where ripple is common mode, and hence polarized electrolytic caps are shown.

In the above schematic, as well as in a Felix, it wouldn't matter if you rotated the CMC around a vertical axis, both terminals with the 'dots' should either be connected to  'input' or 'output'. If you rotate it 90 degrees, you verify whether the requisite breakers/fuses are working properly.  :o
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 14 Nov 2010, 10:33 pm
That's correct. I have a completed group buy Felix in front of me and the smallest caps are sequentially  closest to the CMC.

I wired the second one that way.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: WGH on 14 Nov 2010, 10:50 pm
That is the classiest looking Felix I have seen, good job BRM. (Your birdhouse looked great too)

Wayne
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mgalusha on 14 Nov 2010, 10:52 pm
In case anyone wants one of the group buy boards I posted one in the marketplace.

mike
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 14 Nov 2010, 10:56 pm
That is the classiest looking Felix I have seen, good job BRM. (Your birdhouse looked great too)

Wayne

Thanks Wayne.  I plan on plopping them down next to each future mono-block now that I have re-wired my room to have a leg of my dedicated 20A circuit on the right side also.  The I can jumper them to the wall outlets PDQ and use short PC's to the amps. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: TomS on 29 Nov 2010, 03:59 am
Last weekend's project, a quad 3 amp version Felix with the Hubbells recommended by Occam.  I was practicing my veneering again and am gradually improving.  This one is walnut burl with a solid maple base.  I made the box XXL to allow room for additions as desired.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39337)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39338)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39339)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39340)


Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mhconley on 1 Dec 2010, 02:08 pm
I've just purchased some Hubbell IG8300 duplex receptacles and I'm looking to build a 4 gang box using Felix circuits.  I cannot find Vishay MKP 338 X1 capacitors anywhere.  I have found what looks like a good alternative in the Vishay F1772 X2 line.

Will these (http://www.vishay.com/docs/28161/f17722.pdf) work?

Martin
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 1 Dec 2010, 02:14 pm
Martin - Yes.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Dec 2010, 02:18 pm
Martin - Yes.

Do you think the 338's are better though?  I got a bunch of them a couple of weeks ago. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mhconley on 1 Dec 2010, 03:24 pm
Martin - Yes.

Thanks for the quick response.

Do you think the 338's are better though?  I got a bunch of them a couple of weeks ago.

I don't know if either is better than the other.  The F1772 X2 is rated for 24x7 operation and the ones I just purchased are spec'ed with a 10% tolerance.

Martin
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 18 Jan 2011, 12:59 am
Maybe I missed it but is it necessary to have a felix for each outlet of a duplex or can one be used for both?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 18 Jan 2011, 05:10 am
The Felix is simply a mains low pass filter and can feed as many outlets as you wish to wire them to. Your decision should be guided by -

1. Outlets fed from the same filter are not isolated from each other.
2. The total current draw for those outlets fed by a single filter should be (usually substantially) less than the current rating of the choke used. If the choke's rating is less than 15/20 amps, depending on the circuit's breaker, the filter should be fused to reflect the chokes limitations.



Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 18 Jan 2011, 08:24 pm
The Felix is simply a mains low pass filter and can feed as many outlets as you wish to wire them to. Your decision should be guided by -

1. Outlets fed from the same filter are not isolated from each other.
2. The total current draw for those outlets fed by a single filter should be (usually substantially) less than the current rating of the choke used. If the choke's rating is less than 15/20 amps, depending on the circuit's breaker, the filter should be fused to reflect the chokes limitations.

Thanks. i think this project will be next on the docket. I know someone briefly mentioned using 2 Felix in series to greater effect. Are there any cons to this approach?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Russtafarian on 18 Jan 2011, 10:06 pm
I have a somewhat Felix related question.  About three or four years ago I built a 10 outlet power box with a Felix (3 or 6 amp chokes) or Corcom (10 amp) filter on each outlet. 

Last night I plugged my notebook computer's switching PS into the powerstrip and was shocked at all the noise it dumped into my system.  As an experiment, I plugged the PS directly into the wall and got even more noise.  Plugging into the Corcom, the noise would hit then quickly ramp down but was still very audible.  Same result with the Felix.  When I lifted the ground pin on the computer PS, the noise went away regardless of the outlet I plugged it into.

Why does the computer PS dump so much noise into the system when grounded?  Should all switching PS's connected to an audio system be ground lifted?  Is there a "rule of thumb" to follow that will keep switching PS noise out of the system without creating a shock hazard?  Thanks.

Russ
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 19 Jan 2011, 02:26 pm
......
Why does the computer PS dump so much noise into the system when grounded?  Should all switching PS's connected to an audio system be ground lifted?  Is there a "rule of thumb" to follow that will keep switching PS noise out of the system without creating a shock hazard?

Russ,

Have you tried a different mains supply for your laptop to check if your particular ps brick isn't faulty? Is the problem eliminated when you power your laptop from its internal batteries and its not connected to the external supply?

-Paul
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 20 Jan 2011, 07:04 pm
The Felix is simply a mains low pass filter and can feed as many outlets as you wish to wire them to. Your decision should be guided by -

1. Outlets fed from the same filter are not isolated from each other.
2. The total current draw for those outlets fed by a single filter should be (usually substantially) less than the current rating of the choke used. If the choke's rating is less than 15/20 amps, depending on the circuit's breaker, the filter should be fused to reflect the chokes limitations.

Hi Paul, don't know if you caught my other question above so I'll clarify: would it be just as effective or more so to use two in series, CLCLC, or even more?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Russtafarian on 20 Jan 2011, 08:02 pm
Thanks for the explanation Paul.  That's what I was looking for. 

I don't usually have a computer plugged into the system's power block.  I have it there for now to run Room EQ Wizard and set up MiniDSP.  I find it interesting that some notebook computer PS's are grounded and some aren't.  The grounded one's always dump noise into the system in my experience.  Lifting the power ground on the PS or using battery power removes the noise.

BTW, I've got two particular power cables on my tube amps and they are singing quite sweetly.  :wink:

Russ
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 20 Jan 2011, 08:16 pm
Hi Paul, don't know if you caught my other question above so I'll clarify: would it be just as effective or more so to use two in series, CLCLC, or even more?

Good question! I'm interested in this too.

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 21 Jan 2011, 01:12 am
Quote
would it be just as effective or more so to use two in series, CLCLC, or even more?

Cascading a second LC adds 12db/octive of additional differential/normal mode attenuation to an existing Felix (CLC). WRT common mode noise, it lowers the -3db point. The impact is quite measurable and significant subjectively, though not as major a improvement as adding the initial Felix in a noisy mains environment. This has worked quite well cascading the 3amp Coilcraft chokes, on source components, specifically dacs and the Behringer digital doodads. I can't opine on this for preamps, as my CAT SL-1 Mk III preamp actually has the power conditioning where it belongs, within the component, specific to its needs, and no matter what I do, external conditioning efforts simply don't help.
I wouldn't recommend this for power amplifiers, as cascaded filters might well choke the performance, especially with linear supplies with large, low angle of conduction charging pulses.

FWIW,
Paul

Edit added in italics
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 21 Jan 2011, 01:34 am
Cascading a second LC adds 12db/octive of additional attenuation to an existing Felix (CLC). The impact is quite measurable and significant subjectively, though not as major a improvement as adding the initial Felix in a noisy mains environment. This has worked quite well cascading the 3amp Coilcraft chokes, on source components, specifically dacs and the Behringer digital doodads. I can't opine on this for preamps, as my CAT SL-1 Mk III preamp actually has the power conditioning where it belongs, within the component, specific to its needs, and no matter what I do, external conditioning efforts simply don't help.
I wouldn't recommend this for power amplifiers, as cascaded filters might well choke the performance, especially with linear supplies with large, low angle of conduction charging pulses.

FWIW,
Paul

Very cool. Thanks Paul.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mgalusha on 22 Jan 2011, 03:43 am
The impact is quite measurable and significant subjectively, though not as major a improvement as adding the initial Felix in a noisy mains environment. This has worked quite well cascading the 3amp Coilcraft chokes, on source components, specifically dacs and the Behringer digital doodads.

Totally agree with Paul on this. I'm using cascaded Felix's in front of my modified DCX which is driving the subs. Adding the second Felix did improve things and on only the bass. Don't forget that it filters both ways, it also keeps nasties from the power supply from getting back to your other gear. :)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 23 Jan 2011, 04:24 am
Totally agree with Paul on this. I'm using cascaded Felix's in front of my modified DCX which is driving the subs. Adding the second Felix did improve things and on only the bass. Don't forget that it filters both ways, it also keeps nasties from the power supply from getting back to your other gear. :)

Good to know.

@Paul:
Now as far as the caps go, would there be anything to be gained by adding .001 (1nf), and .1nf?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 24 Jan 2011, 05:31 am
Quote
...would there be anything to be gained by adding .001 (1nf), and .1nf?

One can generally find metalized film interference (X2,y2,etc...) down to 1nf, 0.001uf. The reason for using bypass capacitor(s) is that the larger the cap, in both physical size and capacitive value, the lower the frequency at which the capacitance is ineffective, because of the capacitor's parasitic series inductance. A capacitor's impedance reaches its minimum at the frequency where its capacitive reactance equals its inductive reactance, and beyond that frequency, looses efficacy.

FWIW

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 25 Jan 2011, 04:30 am
Thanks Paul.

FYI to all: Newark/Farnell has the 8111-RC JW Miller on sale for $7. I bought enough for a 12 outlet
w/ double felix (to inc. some of the 9A chokes).
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 25 Jan 2011, 10:34 am
Cascading a second LC adds 12db/octive of additional differential/normal mode attenuation to an existing Felix (CLC). WRT common mode noise, it lowers the -3db point. The impact is quite measurable and significant subjectively, though not as major a improvement as adding the initial Felix in a noisy mains environment. This has worked quite well cascading the 3amp Coilcraft chokes, on source components, specifically dacs and the Behringer digital doodads. I can't opine on this for preamps, as my CAT SL-1 Mk III preamp actually has the power conditioning where it belongs, within the component, specific to its needs, and no matter what I do, external conditioning efforts simply don't help.
I wouldn't recommend this for power amplifiers, as cascaded filters might well choke the performance, especially with linear supplies with large, low angle of conduction charging pulses.

FWIW,
Paul

Edit added in italics

I agree with Paul on this but in addition, I have Paul Kaplan's 1.5 conditioner cord on my dac detailed here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65332.msg886712#msg886712). The dac has its own integrated Felix filter. I removed the Felix filter last week and had only Paul's filtered cord connected to it. What was lost was a smidgen of bass and the soundstage had shrunk a little. Adding the Felix filter back in restored that balance. I heard this across several recordings.

The improvement of the Kaplan 1.5 conditioner cord itself was a monumental experience to say the least. The addition of the Felix was a nice tweak. I also tested the Felix Filter on its own using a standard Kaplan cord and the improvement provided was definitely great, in all frequencies, especially opening up the top end. The Kaplan 1.5 conditioner however was a more substantial improvement, more foundational so to speak. The Felix filter was icing on the cake, but not a detriment in any way.

I need to try these changes on my other components, but I surmise that the biggest improvements will be at the source level depending on the design of the component itself.

So just to clarify:

Felix filter alone:  :thumb:
Felix filter + the Kaplan non filtered power cord:  :thumb: :thumb:
Kaplan filtered power cord alone:  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Felix filter + the Kaplan filtered power cord:  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

I don't know if the Kaplan filtered power cord has a Felix in it or it doesn't. But what it does is beyond what the Felix can do alone and in no detriment to the dynamics of the component being tested. In fact, it enhances that component in every way. I was pretty surprised but that's the honest truth!

Oh...and just so that this thread isn't derailed, any pertinent questions regarding the Kaplan filtered cord should be directed at Paul Kaplan the designer (through a pm), since this isn't the 'Critics' circle. I've already asked him what is inside the filtered power cord...no answers there, it's his design, it's proprietary and that's the way it should be.

Anand.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 25 Jan 2011, 05:05 pm
So you found the Felix less beneficial than a smaller - and no doubt proprietary - rfi/emi filter?

Edit: this was asked before anand added the last 3 paragraphs above.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: sts9fan on 25 Jan 2011, 06:10 pm
I would not be surprised if it was a felix in the cord.  Notice how there is a 3amp and 15amp version and a fuse.     
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 25 Jan 2011, 06:15 pm
Ah. Got it. Little slow in the morning.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nottaway on 26 Jan 2011, 03:59 pm
Would something like this work in place of the fuse?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=074-022&scqty=1

Also will someone point me towards a DIY DC blocker? LINK?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Jan 2011, 04:06 pm
Would something like this work in place of the fuse?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=074-022&scqty=1

Also will someone point me towards a DIY DC blocker? LINK?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.msg494404#msg494404

http://sjostromaudio.com/pages/hifi-projects/36/109-dct02-the-dc-trap-high-end-style
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: tonyptony on 26 Jan 2011, 05:39 pm
I've been following this with great interest. I have some ability in building electronics so I'm thinking of giving this a try. But I have been curious - does anyone know what the PS Audio Duet has in it? From the description it sounds a lot like what the Felix would do. I'm not asking for a which is better; in keeping with the tone of the thread I'm more interested in what its circuit might be in comparison to the Felix.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: nottaway on 26 Jan 2011, 07:52 pm
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.msg494404#msg494404

http://sjostromaudio.com/pages/hifi-projects/36/109-dct02-the-dc-trap-high-end-style

Thanks!  I think I'll prob use a bridge and some caps for the blocker.....

How about that mini fuse?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Feb 2011, 01:14 am
How long is too long for a Felix on a power cable? 

Power Cord (Plug end) > Felix > Power Cord with IEC
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kenreau on 1 Feb 2011, 04:30 pm
Would something like this work in place of the fuse?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=074-022&scqty=1

Also will someone point me towards a DIY DC blocker? LINK?


I sure like the concept of using a circuit breaker, rather than a fuse. It just seems intuitive from build quality alone that it should result in a better sounding solution.  I only recall seeing them on Running Springs Audio and Jena Labs power filters.

Kenreau
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mjosef on 1 Feb 2011, 10:13 pm
How long is too long for a Felix on a power cable? 

Power Cord (Plug end) > Felix > Power Cord with IEC

67 ft. 4ins. for a 10 ga. cord
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: sts9fan on 1 Feb 2011, 11:15 pm
I've done 68' but it was streching it. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 5 Feb 2011, 06:57 pm
Would 16awg wire be big enough for Felix wiring, or should I go bigger?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: JDUBS on 5 Feb 2011, 07:09 pm
I've done 68' but it was streching it.

Really?  I ran into SERIOUS performance issues around the 50' mark.

-Jim
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 5 Feb 2011, 07:53 pm
Would 16awg wire be big enough for Felix wiring, or should I go bigger?

You are running 120 volts AC through this so I wouldn't use anything less than 12 ga solid romex myself.  14 ga would probably be enough if rated for 120 vac and the devices connected.  16 sounds too small to me.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: sts9fan on 5 Feb 2011, 11:58 pm
Here is my Felix.  For source components I have two cascaded with a Furutech recepticle

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_2BCe0eSjHpI/TUx-ewpd_NI/AAAAAAAAAsY/ZZpgoiXp12U/s640/P1000797.JPG)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_2BCe0eSjHpI/TUx-3UdZOLI/AAAAAAAAAsY/3PWF_Zpjiyo/s640/P1000807.JPG)


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_2BCe0eSjHpI/TUx-3jC6vFI/AAAAAAAAAsY/xegSCMsv-Js/s640/P1000808.JPG)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: GBB on 6 Feb 2011, 01:43 am
You are running 120 volts AC through this so I wouldn't use anything less than 12 ga solid romex myself.  14 ga would probably be enough if rated for 120 vac and the devices connected.  16 sounds too small to me.
:scratch:  I don't think that's the right answer.  If you do a google search you'll find the following site http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm) which shows max current for both chassis wiring applications and also power distribution, which means house wiring.

Assuming one is using a Felix for source components, then you're likely to be drawing under 3 amps.  The minimum wire gauge you'd want to use for 3A would be 24 gauge.  So even 16 gauge is massive overkill.  Typically, I use 18 gauge wire in my line filters.

---Gary
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: *Scotty* on 6 Feb 2011, 02:58 am
Just a thought here, but you might consider selecting the gauge and type of wire used to wire up a Felix filter based on sonic considerations as well as amperage requirements dictated by the load.
 If you accept that you might be able to hear the sound of a power-cord then the the internal wiring used to connect the Felix to the AC receptacles and power inlet will also have sonic consequences.
Scotty
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 6 Feb 2011, 05:29 am
Just a thought here, but you might consider selecting the gauge and type of wire used to wire up a Felix filter based on sonic considerations as well as amperage requirements dictated by the load.
 If you accept that you might be able to hear the sound of a power-cord then the the internal wiring used to connect the Felix to the AC receptacles and power inlet will also have sonic consequences.
Scotty

That's why I asked. I just salvaged a whole lot of Neotech 16awg PCOCC 600v Teflon wire from my previous speakers  :wink:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rajacat on 6 Feb 2011, 07:20 am
sts9fan,

Did you notice any improvement in sound quality by cascading your Felix's ? I thought that you only needed to use the backside and the choke of the Felix when you cascade.

-Roy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 6 Feb 2011, 01:45 pm
:scratch:  I don't think that's the right answer.  If you do a google search you'll find the following site http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm) which shows max current for both chassis wiring applications and also power distribution, which means house wiring.

Assuming one is using a Felix for source components, then you're likely to be drawing under 3 amps.  The minimum wire gauge you'd want to use for 3A would be 24 gauge.  So even 16 gauge is massive overkill.  Typically, I use 18 gauge wire in my line filters.

---Gary

And if he runs a 500 wpc Class A amp through it someday?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Feb 2011, 01:55 pm
And if he runs a 500 wpc Class A amp through it someday?

The rating for the board is 10A and a 500wpc Class A will exceed that.  My 300wpc Class A mono block amp draws 800w each (6.6A @ 120VAC) of electric at idle...
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Big Red Machine on 6 Feb 2011, 02:46 pm
And that's my point.  I would wire it for all possible future applications and avoid an embarrassing fuse blowing or worse if I decided to put this out front of an amp or my entire system.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: sts9fan on 6 Feb 2011, 06:28 pm
Roy
I have not installed it yet. As far as what's needed I have no idea.  I had two so I stacked them.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: *Scotty* on 7 Feb 2011, 02:18 am
Connections on the Felix board could be made directly to the inductor pins which would make the current rating of the Felix equivalent to the current rating of the inductor used on the board.
If you have used an inductor with a current rating higher than that of the circuit traces on the board you can take advantage of that capability.
Scotty
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 7 Feb 2011, 11:11 pm
And that's my point.  I would wire it for all possible future applications and avoid an embarrassing fuse blowing or worse if I decided to put this out front of an amp or my entire system.

Not sure if you guys are addressing my question but I am not using the boards (they're not available anymore, correct?) but will be hand-wired. I'll be building a 7-duplex Felix for my entire HT/Music setup. According to the specs I know the 16awg should be able to handle that, I was just curious about real-world experience.

I have zero intention of 500w Class A anything anytime soon. They're not exaclty giving power away here in SoCal.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: *Scotty* on 8 Feb 2011, 01:23 am
Here are pictures of some hardwired Felix filters. 18 ga. was used,16ga. is a better choice.
I used 12 and 14ga. when I wired my Felix filters to future proof them. I also used 17amp rated JW Miller inductors in my build. I did not daisy chain my outlets. I ran a set of wires,hot and neutral to each outlet from a central buss point fed by the output of the filter.
 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13626)
 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13628)
Scotty
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 24 Feb 2011, 08:52 pm
Would there be any benefit to having felixes plugged into isolation transformers (Powervar)?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 27 Feb 2011, 08:41 pm
Is there a break-in time for a Felix? I've installed one for my Audio-gd dac and it just seems to take the fullness out of the sound. :|
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: *Scotty* on 28 Feb 2011, 01:40 am
I think there is. In my case I noticed a slight lack of extreme bottom end extension when I first installed the filters. To be fair I have to consider that at the time I was also breaking in the IEC inlets on the filters as well new power cords in addition to the filter components themselves. I would say at the 2 month mark the sense of extension was restored.
 The reduction of noise intermodulation by-products in your system, which should yield better resolution and dynamics across the entire frequency spectrum, may also be interpreted by some people as resulting in a leaner sound.
It is certain that you cannot reduce the the amount of of RFI contamination in a system and not impact what the system sounds like. Whether this change in sound is always perceived as an improvement or not may depend the components in the system and the nature of bass response irregularities present due to room interactions.
Scotty
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 28 Feb 2011, 02:07 am
I think there is. In my case I noticed a slight lack of extreme bottom end extension when I first installed the filters. To be fair I have to consider that at the time I was also breaking in the IEC inlets on the filters as well new power cords in addition to the filter components themselves. I would say at the 2 month mark the sense of extension was restored.
 The reduction of noise intermodulation by-products in your system, which should yield better resolution and dynamics across the entire frequency, may also be interpreted by some people as resulting in a leaner sound.
It is certain that you cannot reduce the the amount of of RFI contamination in a system and not impact what the system sounds like. Whether this change in sound is always perceived as an improvement or not may depend the components in the system and the nature of bass response irregularities present due to room interactions.
Scotty

Thanks for the input. Lack of bottom end extension is indeed what I'm experiencing as well as some hardness in tonality. I guess I'll give it some time.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 25 Mar 2011, 07:16 pm
I have built 6 Felixes thus far for: DAC, USB/SPDIF Converter PS, PC, APC H10 conditioner, tube amp, and... refridgerator. The fridge responded right away, noise level dropped and it's dead silent for long stretches. Everything else seems more subtle. I think it took a day or so for other components to adjust. My experience has been lower noise floor and cleaner presentation. I do have several 193L chokes plugged in at different points as well so I don't know if that is a hindrance in any way to the Felixes, but not to my eyes and ears. My television has never looked better: the 193Ls are worth it for video quality alone, but there's been an additional increase in resolution since the Felixes were installed so I think they complement each other well. HD channels are the best they've ever looked.

The tonal issue I mentioned in above post was due to another component that got the axe shortly after.

Many thanks to Paul. They really are so easy to build that PCB is totally unnecessary. Cheap, simple project to keep your hands busy.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=44965)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 21 May 2011, 04:22 pm
So has anyone actually tried using larger capacitance with their Felix? I added an additional 1-2uf to two of mine - one for DAC, and the other a 12v linear power supply - and I swear the effect has been very positive. I am going to try on two others and see what happens.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 2 Jun 2011, 07:39 am
Well I will add that I think adding the extra 1uf or so per side does wonders for my digital gear and in particular DACs with no detriment that I can discern.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: praedet on 2 Jun 2011, 02:37 pm
So, what values did you use for the various caps then if I might ask?  And, are you running one on anything high current, such as an amp?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 2 Jun 2011, 02:47 pm
So, what values did you use for the various caps then if I might ask?  And, are you running one on anything high current, such as an amp?

I replaced the 1ufs with 2.2ufs. No, I will avoid the amp and analog gear for now with the larger value.
Title: Proper placement (and values) of fuses
Post by: theojt on 6 Jul 2011, 08:43 pm
I am building a quad Felix into a single enclosure (see pic below).  Is it more appropriate to place fuses on each individual Felix and if so, is it best on the input side or output side?  Should I just use one fuse at the AC line in? A combination of both?  I plan on adding each HT component's max current rating and then either selecting individual fuses based on that (independent) or aggregating the values to identify a single, bigger fuse if that is recommended.  I also thought about down-rating the fuse a bit since most components will not run at max (except at turn on) and most components don't turn on all together anyway.  Suggestions and advice please!


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48475)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: mjosef on 7 Jul 2011, 03:45 am
Seems to me you would need a fuse before every individual 'Felix'. The fuse is there to protect the coil from being asked to exceed its amp rating, by accident or whatnot.
If you place a 15A fuse before the DC blocker, to protect the whole unit, then you can forgo the 17A fuse and just fuse the smaller Felix units.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: derekhsu on 16 Aug 2011, 01:51 am
Dear all members,

I am new here.
I am very interested in the Felix Module.
Is Version 1.0 is the latest version?
should I buy the board from a specific member or I should ask for the dwg file.

I am also interested on the DC Blocker, could any member help me in the BOM (component list)?

Best Regards
DH
:D
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: derekhsu on 24 Aug 2011, 07:16 am
 :slap: :slap: :slap:

Any help from other members?
I want to buy the PCB locating the latest Version and then printed locally.

Any idea on DC Blocker - what the FULL WAVE Rectifier model and cap size?

Regards
Derek
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: peranders on 24 Aug 2011, 10:18 am
Cap value is determined by the AC current and used zeners or diodes. I have written about the problem here (http://sjostromaudio.com/pages/hifi-projects/36/109-dct02-the-dc-trap-high-end-style?start=1)
Title: Re: Felix project also DC ready?
Post by: kyrill on 11 Jan 2012, 10:30 pm
Hi ppl
I have many Felixes running fine for every stand alone gear.

I have a laptop  as as music source and it sounds softer, less harsh when playing on its internal battery. Helas that one is out of juice in 2 hrs. SO I have to connect it to its charger a SWPS what you normally get for 13 inch laptops /
SO i figured to use a Felix without the caps ( I understood  the caps are for AC only and that DC need electrolytics) between laptop and its swps 'charger". I measured the V(19V) all going well. I listened for 20 minutes and then I smelled "hot enamel" and yes the Coilcraft P3717-AL 0.3 ohms was very very hot. I didn't dare to continue. I understood back then form Paul, that you could use the Felix also after a swps to filter its DC.
SO why is it so hot? >190 F I suppose
Title: Re: Felix project also DC ready?
Post by: randytsuch on 11 Jan 2012, 10:51 pm
Hi ppl
I have many Felixes running fine for every stand alone gear.

I have a laptop  as as music source and it sounds softer, less harsh when playing on its internal battery. Helas that one is out of juice in 2 hrs. SO I have to connect it to its charger a SWPS what you normally get for 13 inch laptops /
SO i figured to use a Felix without the caps ( I understood  the caps are for AC only and that DC need electrolytics) between laptop and its swps 'charger". I measured the V(19V) all going well. I listened for 20 minutes and then I smelled "hot enamel" and yes the Coilcraft P3717-AL 0.3 ohms was very very hot. I didn't dare to continue. I understood back then form Paul, that you could use the Felix also after a swps to filter its DC.
SO why is it so hot? >190 F I suppose

The Felix parts are designed for 115 VAC, I don't remember the exact specs for the coils, but there were a couple choices, with one supporting more current.

If you connected on the charger at 19V, the current will be much higher then if you were on 115V.  You are most likely putting too much current through the coil, and the high current is overheating it.

BTW, you could use the caps here, at worst they won't help, but they should filter out some noise.

Randy
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 11 Jan 2012, 11:03 pm
thx for the fast response
It would make sense..

I will check the laptops charger how much current it gves at those 19 V
4,7A   and the Coilcraft is rated for 3A

I was fooled by the idea that ah, it is latop that will not be that powerful... not so clever...
thx for the tip no harm is done with using the caps.
Title: Re: Felix project also DC ready?
Post by: SET Man on 11 Jan 2012, 11:16 pm
Hi ppl
I have many Felixes running fine for every stand alone gear.

I have a laptop  as as music source and it sounds softer, less harsh when playing on its internal battery. Helas that one is out of juice in 2 hrs. SO I have to connect it to its charger a SWPS what you normally get for 13 inch laptops /
SO i figured to use a Felix without the caps ( I understood  the caps are for AC only and that DC need electrolytics) between laptop and its swps 'charger". I measured the V(19V) all going well. I listened for 20 minutes and then I smelled "hot enamel" and yes the Coilcraft P3717-AL 0.3 ohms was very very hot. I didn't dare to continue. I understood back then form Paul, that you could use the Felix also after a swps to filter its DC.
SO why is it so hot? >190 F I suppose

Hey!

    Not an expert here. But usually rating for DC is lower than stated AC rating.... at least for the caps. I don't know if those coils show rating for DC use. Maybe close to half of AC rating... better check with expert here.

    A little history side note... this is the reason why AC own over DC as our main power distribution. It takes more copper to carry DC than AC for the same amount of amperes and voltage.

   Edited: Look like you found the answer there.

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 27 Jan 2012, 11:13 am
Hi,

For those who live in a 230V country and tried JW Miller 8118 and 8120 with their amps, did you find some difference about dynamics?
My amplifier input impedance is 100kOhm.

About capacitors, did you tried another brands, like Evox-Rifa X2 and Wima X2, both Impreg. paper, or other models...?

Thanks
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: serengetiplains on 31 Jan 2012, 04:11 am
On the issue of capacitors to try with the Felix, and depending on your voltage and capacity requirements, Russian polystyrenes seem to be very good capacitors.  I have some on hand, and on DF they consistently measure better than the best teflons out there, this on a 6 decimal place DF measurement and on which the R-styrenes are almost off the scale.  I've yet to actually hear one of these capacitors, but being film/foil polystyrene encased in a hard, epoxy-filled box, they probably nearly compete with teflons (just can't get around that DA factor).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-1uF-250V-Hi-tol-POLYSTYRENE-CAPACITORS-50pcs-/200705828610?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebaffe702

The above is just an example of the capacitors I'm speaking of.  Search "polystyrene capacitor" on eBay and you will see many different values offered at different quantities.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: wushuliu on 31 Jan 2012, 07:45 am
I don't see any rating for AC voltage.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 31 Jan 2012, 03:39 pm
Serengeti,

C'mon, you're too knowledgeable to be making such suggestions.
I'm anxiously awaiting your report of exactly how those film and foil caps blow up when subjected to the vicissitudes of AC mains. I've never run across an X2 rated foil cap, but will confess to having tried polyprop 600vdc film n' foil caps. They blowed up real good.... Foil caps are not self healing.
For those who believe the quality of the cap used in an 'X' function matter (as I do), I believe those Roosh'n caps will sound great, leastwise until they blow....

Rdsu,

Those paper impregnated X2 caps will work quite well.
As to a Felix benefiting a power amp in 230vac countries, all I can say is that the current draws will be half of that as in 120vac main countries, a very good thing.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 31 Jan 2012, 09:47 pm
The capacitors in the E-bay link above (post #400) don't look (or spec) like any "polystyrene capacitor" that I am familiar with.
In any case a "polystyrene capacitor" is not something that you would use in any AC power line circuit.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 1 Feb 2012, 01:58 am
Josh,

Actually, I mispoke when I described the Felix topology described above as equivalent as an Audience Adept.
The Adept from the 6moons review -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4726)
Upon further reflection, I understand why the Adepts is -
Mains--->Breakers---->X cap + 2 Y caps----> multiple paralell CMCs terminated with Xcap to each outlet.
The potential problem with a single CMC before the paralleled (CMCs + xxx + outlet) is that that single CMC would have to pass the total of all the currents whereas those paralleled CMCs only pass the current associated with its individual outlet. The same caveat would apply to a CMC that feeds the unit or a balancing transformer. I'm not saying its impractical, just that its easier to source a CMC that won't saturate when feeding the lesser draw of an individual component. And yes, CMCs theoretically just overheat and don't saturate, but in reality they do....
The benefit of CMCs with associated caps for each outlet is that in addition to minimizing the potential problems of saturation, they also provide isolation between components.

Personally, I don't like Y caps in non balanced environments, but Audience does, and who am I to argue?
Occam,

do you know what cap is the bigger one in the middle, connected between the line and neutral?
And what's for?

Thanks
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: serengetiplains on 1 Feb 2012, 07:49 pm
Paul, my suggestion was for use in a lower voltage application, as in the output of a power transformer.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 1 Feb 2012, 08:29 pm
Instead of using fuses and varistors, what do you think of using one Magnetic Hydraulic Circuit Breaker(Interrupt Capacity 5,000 A @ 277 VAC, 15A, 1 pole, DCR < 0,01 Ohm) (Carling Tech (http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CB_BSeries.pdf) or Potter & Brumfield (http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Data+Sheet%7F1308242_w6w9%7F0310%7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_DS_1308242_w6w9_0310.pdf%7F2-1393254-3)), and two Y2 (http://www.kemet.com/kemet/web/homepage/kechome.nsf/file/PME271Y%20Series/$file/KEM_F3016_PME271Y_Y2_250.pdf) caps between hot/neutral and ground, like we have in Audience?

I'm in a 230V/50Hz country, and want to build 6 Felix's in a case.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 1 Feb 2012, 08:50 pm
The circuit breaker will replace a fuse and a power switch, but not the varistors.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 2 Feb 2012, 12:47 am
The circuit breaker will replace a fuse and a power switch, but not the varistors.
Do you recommend some varistor that doesn't affect the audio?

What about these Littelfuse  V275LA40AP (http://www.littelfuse.com/products/Varistors/AC+Power+Protection/LA/V275LA40AP.html) or TMOV20RP275E (http://www.littelfuse.com/products/Varistors/Integrated+Thermally+Protected/TMOV/TMOV20RP275E.html)?

Put 3 in each Felix, on 3 next to AC input?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 2 Feb 2012, 12:58 am
If the varistor affects the audio, you connected it in the wrong place!
This thread is about the AC power supply.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 2 Feb 2012, 01:18 am
Thinking about it some more, Bill Whitlock makes the good argument, that MOV's should not be connected from the Hot to Safety Ground (PE,EGC) or from the Neutral to Safety Ground (PE,EGC) anyplace other than at main breaker box.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 2 Feb 2012, 10:34 pm
Thinking about it some more, Bill Whitlock makes the good argument, that MOV's should not be connected from the Hot to Safety Ground (PE,EGC) or from the Neutral to Safety Ground (PE,EGC) anyplace other than at main breaker box.
Thanks for the tip ;)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Syrah on 3 Feb 2012, 02:06 pm
Any thoughts on this?

http://arraysolutions.com/Products/nqnaclinefilter.htm


Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: serengetiplains on 4 Feb 2012, 12:04 am
Check it out.  Russian potted polystryrenes for 40ยข a pop.  Off the scale.  That's a difficult scale to beat.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57407)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 4 Feb 2012, 01:51 pm
After read the Felicia Balancing PowerConditioner Constructor's Thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18443.0) and My Capacitor comparisons: Mundorfs, VCap, Sonicap Platinum, Auricap, etc (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0), I was interested in Jantzen capacitors to use them in Felix, because they seems to be very good for its price and neutral.

As I already mention, I'm thinking in a 6 Felix's, in a case, using a Magnetic Hydraulic Circuit Breaker(Interrupt Capacity 5,000A @ 277VAC, 15A, 1 pole, DCR < 0,01 Ohm) (Carling Tech or Potter & Brumfield) after the IEC, and then two Y2 caps between line/neutral and ground. I'm in a 230V/50Hz country.

This will be connected to 3 copper busbars (line, neutral and ground).
Then this is the configuration for sources and amplifiers:

Sources: TMOV, C1, C2, C3 -- CDMC -- C4, C5
Amplifiers: TMOV, C1, C2, C3 -- CMC -- C4, C5, C6
TMOV - 250VAC 170J - Littelfuse TMOV20RP250E (http://www.littelfuse.com/products/Varistors/Integrated+Thermally+Protected/TMOV/TMOV20RP250E.html) Thermally Protected Varistor (like Shunyata Hydra (http://www.shunyata.com/Default.aspx?linkkey=TechHydra) have)
C1, C2, C3 - 0.47uF, 0.15uF, 0.047uF X2 275VAC Impreg. paper - Evox Rifa PME271M (http://www.kemet.com/kemet/web/homepage/kechome.nsf/file/PME271M%20Series/$file/KEM_F3011_PME271M_X2_275.pdf) (like ISOL-8 and IsoTek have)
CDMC - 25mH, 3A - Coilcraft P3717-AL (http://www.coilcraft.com/comoco.cfm)
CMC - 7.3mH 9.3A, 2,4mH 17A - J.W. Miller 8118, 8120 (http://www.bourns.com/ProductLine.aspx?name=jwm_thru_hole_common_mode_chokes) (8120 is to use if 8118 reduce the dynamics)
C4 - 0.047uF X1 760VAC Polypropylene - Evox Rifa PHE845 (http://www.kemet.com/kemet/web/homepage/kechome.nsf/file/PHE845%20Series/$file/F3294_PHE845.pdf)  (like ISOL-8 SubStation (http://www.isol-8.co.uk/substation_lc-hc-axis_mains_conditioner.html) have)
C5 - 0.1uF 600VAC - Jantzen Superior Z-cap (http://www.jantzen-audio.com/html/caps-superior-z-cap.html) (I also use these on amplifiers model because my integrated amplifier also have the DAC, so...)
C6 - 0.47uF 425VAC - Jantzen Superior Z-cap (http://www.jantzen-audio.com/html/caps-superior-z-cap.html)

What do you think of using Evox Rifa X2 paper before CMC and Evox Rifa X1 after? Do you prefer Vishay/Roederstein F1778 X2 (http://www.vishay.com/docs/27610/f17782x2.pdf) or other to complement Jantzen?
Adding the Jantzen will be secure, under these specs, and the improvement will be worthwhile?

Thanks
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Feb 2012, 01:52 pm
You want to use X rated caps only though.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 4 Feb 2012, 03:29 pm
Any thoughts on this?
http://arraysolutions.com/Products/nqnaclinefilter.htm
Three thoughts:
1] It looks like 10 pounds of filter in a 5 pound box.
2] It's only good for 7 Amps.
3] A cheater plug!

Jim Brown has several papers on this type of filter.

http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 7 Feb 2012, 09:51 pm
About cascading Felix's, what do you think about using one CMC 5A before 4 Felix's of 3A for sources, like this:

          -- C1,C2,C3 --CMC2-- C4,C5,C6
          -- C1,C2,C3 --CMC2-- C4,C5,C6
CMC1   -- C1,C2,C3 --CMC2-- C4,C5,C6
          -- C1,C2,C3 --CMC2-- C4,C5,C6

CMC1 - Coilcraft Q4007-AL 5A
CMC2 - Coilcraft P3717-AL 3A

I only use 1,5A on sources, so will be more that sufficient...

Did you also tried Earth Line Chokes (http://www.schurter.ch/en/Components/EMC-Products/Suppression-Chokes/DENO) on Felix to avoid ground wire loops, like in ISOL-8 Substation (http://mos.futurenet.com/techradar/Review%20images/Hi-Fi%20Choice/HFC%20344/HFC344.isol8.lc_tech-420-90.jpg)?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 7 Feb 2012, 11:01 pm
Did you also tried Earth Line Chokes (http://www.schurter.ch/en/Components/EMC-Products/Suppression-Chokes/DENO) on Felix to avoid ground wire loops, like in ISOL-8 Substation (http://mos.futurenet.com/techradar/Review%20images/Hi-Fi%20Choice/HFC%20344/HFC344.isol8.lc_tech-420-90.jpg)?
They would make the loop larger!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 7 Feb 2012, 11:36 pm
They would make the loop larger!
Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 8 Feb 2012, 03:24 pm
To make the loop smaller, all possible current paths should be:

a] Close together, to make the loop area smaller.
b] As short as practicable.
c] As low impedance as practicable.

The choke increases the impedance and the higher the noise frequency the higher the impedance.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 8 Feb 2012, 07:44 pm
To make the loop smaller, all possible current paths should be:

a] Close together, to make the loop area smaller.
b] As short as practicable.
c] As low impedance as practicable.

The choke increases the impedance and the higher the noise frequency the higher the impedance.
This choke doesn't do the same as those which have been suggested for Felix?
This one was made specifically to ground so I thought it should be good as the others...

Did you checked the specifications?
http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_DENO.pdf
www.elektronik.ropla.eu/pdf/stock/tim/de_deh_den_deno.pdf
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 8 Feb 2012, 09:48 pm
While both linked pages do make the claim:

  This type of chokes permits the building of a system free of ground
wire loops.

No further information is provided on how this could be possible.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 9 Feb 2012, 11:51 am
While both linked pages do make the claim:

  This type of chokes permits the building of a system free of ground
wire loops.

No further information is provided on how this could be possible.
It seems that is like other chokes, by removing high frequency noise.
This one above 5MHz.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 9 Feb 2012, 02:28 pm
Without question they filter high frequency noise, after all they are chokes.  But a ground loop is about multiple paths that the noise current can flow in.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rxetera on 30 May 2012, 08:34 pm
The original schematic only mentioned a 2.5amp fuse, but I'm assuming that it should be sized based on the amp rating of the inductor.  Can someone provide some guidance as to matching a fuse to the inductor chosen for this application?

Also some fuse part numbers would be of great help.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 9 May 2013, 07:59 pm
Hi,

I just wanted to thank you about your help on Felix, especially Paul (Occam)... ;)

Only last March I finished my Power Conditioner, based on Felix and some others....

Here is the result:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=80219)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=80220)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=80223)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=80224)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=104604)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=104605)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=104606)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=104607)


Basically is:
- modushop.biz Slim Line 2U Rack Silver
- Sources/Analog use two Coilcrafts P3717-AL, and Amplifier one Coilcraft CMT4-10-15L.
- Between the outlets and chokes I used the same philosophy as Audience. 0,1uF for digital sources, 0,22uF for analog sources and 0,56uF for amplifiers. The capacitors are Jantzen Superior Z-Cap and Mundorf MCap SUPREME Silver.Oil, all 1200VDC.
- Between chokes the capacitors filter +/- 1.4MHz (Vishay F1778 1uF), 7MHz (WIMA MP3 X2 0,047uF) and 23MHz (Vishay F1778 0,01uF).
- Schurter DENO 16A earth choke, and Kemet PHE850 0,0047uF for L > E and N > E.
- An extra Kemet PHE844 0,47uF, for extra filtration (before chokes), and to help on power factor.
- Bleed Resistor: KOA Speer MOS 100kOhm 5W
- A similar Bryston DC Blocker, Panasonic Aluminum Electrolytic 33.000uF 16V, Vishay Bridge Rectifiers 35A 1KV
- Over Current protection: Carling Tech Hydraulic/Magnetic Circuit Breaker 15A
- Surge protection: Hybrid MOV/GDT design - two (Littelfuse TMOV20RP275E + Bourns 2027-35-BLF) in series (L > N and N > L)
- Cooper bar of 80A
- Alpha Wire - EcoWire cable of 12AWG for sources and 9AWG for amplifier.
- Neutrik powerCON 20A, and 6x Socket SCHUKO MONACOR
- Flatfeet Ultra to isolate and prevent vibrations.

Regards  :thumb:

Edit:
2014.08.30:
 - Changed Amplifier choke from JW Miller 8118-RC to Coilcraft CMT4-10-15L.
 - Changed Surge Protection
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 9 May 2013, 09:01 pm
Wow congratulations, looks like a high end professional job:)   :thumb:
advise: experiment with the very affordable WA-Quantum chips


some cmc coils look in series ?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 9 May 2013, 11:39 pm
Wow congratulations, looks like a high end professional job:)   :thumb:
Thanks! ;)

advise: experiment with the very affordable WA-Quantum chips
Will have a look.
What chips do you use?

some cmc coils look in series ?
All in parallel. I think is the Coilcraft Third Order Filter design.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.msg893971#msg893971
http://www.coilcraft.com/pdfs/doc191_CMFiltDesign.pdf
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 10 May 2013, 08:02 am
hi rdsu

on the photo I see clearly two coilcrafts on one white board  belonging to a construction for one outlet, so it looks like to me. 10 coils for 5 outlets. You mean that per outlet you have two coils in parallel?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 10 May 2013, 09:40 am
hi rdsu

on the photo I see clearly two coilcrafts on one white board  belonging to a construction for one outlet, so it looks like to me. 10 coils for 5 outlets. You mean that per outlet you have two coils in parallel?

Yes, two coils per outlet for sources/analog...

Line      -----       ----        ----        ----        ----         
                   CMC     Caps     CMC      Caps     Outlet
Neutral -----       ----        ----        ----        ----         

Maybe is more correct to say that coils are in series?
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: kyrill on 10 May 2013, 09:52 am
yes they are, nor harm for preamps, source materials and so on. I see ypu have one  power amp outlet, why not two ( for future mono amps? :)

WA quantum fuse chips and power chips  have favourable reviews, There are also coil/transformer chips :)
I use them and kept them :)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 10 May 2013, 10:08 am
yes they are, nor harm for preamps, source materials and so on. I see ypu have one  power amp outlet, why not two ( for future mono amps? :)
Because I'm not seeing to buy them on next years, or will buy with RFI/EMI filtration build in... :)
If I buy something else will be better speakers for now...

I use one outlet to connect my plasma and tv receiver...
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 24 Jul 2014, 07:37 pm
Hi,

I would like to make a question about two chokes.

They are

My AC is 230V/16A, and I want to use it in a Amplifier.

This Coilcraft choke isn't better then this JW Miller choke?
It has less mH, but it is also differential choke, has less DC Resistance, allow more Current and lower frequency attenuation...

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 24 Jul 2014, 08:07 pm
Every common mode choke is also a differential choke to a greater or lesser degree.  A CMC's differential inductance is basically its leakage inductance, which for the JW Miller 8118 is about 30 uH.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 24 Jul 2014, 08:24 pm
Every common mode choke is also a differential choke to a greater or lesser degree.  A CMC's differential inductance is basically its leakage inductance, which for the JW Miller 8118 is about 30 uH.
But at the end what matters, for this application, isn't the common mode attenuation, without limit current to avoid dynamic constraints?

The differences between them shouldn't be noticed...
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 24 Jul 2014, 10:50 pm
I don't know your intended amperage use, but I do highly suggest going 2x as high as you max on your usage with whatever CMC you use.

I'm a fan of the coilcraft when it fits. But I've also seen what they're like with half a decade on them, and trust me it's not advisable to have them operating at or too near their amperage cap. They can melt, it's possible. I haven't seen any failures, but there's evidence that on a long enough time line it could happen. Obviously a fuse is a commendable safety addition. But the counter intuitive thought is, do I go with an audiophile (expensive) fuse, or one that may provide current resistance similar to or much worse than a CMC itself?  :scratch:  I suppose no one can listen to music in a location that's been reduced to a cinder.

Also when going "oversized" (appropriate) they don't seem to provide the slightest constraint. The calculated current constraint isn't anywhere near peak operating use at 60hz when going 2x amperage with a CMC. 
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 25 Jul 2014, 12:59 am
Thanks for your advices... ;)

When I can, I will get the Coilcraft CMT4-10-15L (http://www.coilcraft.com/cmt.cfm), and then everything can run on it...
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 25 Jul 2014, 06:11 am
Very nice replacement for Q4018 and the CMT4-17-9L isn't too shabby compared to the Q4007.



Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 25 Jul 2014, 08:34 am
I have the JW Miller 8118-RC, as you can see in the above pictures, so it will be easy to replace for a CMT4-10-15...

This Coilcraft CMT are excellent, and I only discovered them after saw a post (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=117376.msg1231728#msg1231728) from Occam... Thanks Paul! ;)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 25 Jul 2014, 08:16 pm
I don't know what you have access to for measurements, but perhaps you could do a comparison between the two? Leakage inductance is close to differential attenuation, but how close in these units? I'd love to know. They are toroidal, and I'm not certain how much that factors in. Either way I'd say they look great but it all depends on the amperage needs.



Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 25 Jul 2014, 11:59 pm
Unfortunately, I only have my ears for measurements...  :wink:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 30 Aug 2014, 01:25 pm
I have the JW Miller 8118-RC, as you can see in the above pictures, so it will be easy to replace for a CMT4-10-15...

This Coilcraft CMT are excellent, and I only discovered them after saw a post (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=117376.msg1231728#msg1231728) from Occam... Thanks Paul! ;)

I finally changed the Amplifier choke from JW Miller 8118-RC to Coilcraft CMT4-10-15L, and the final result improved the SQ...
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 1 Sep 2014, 07:30 pm
JW Miller doesn't post their specs of attenuation (I don't think), but the Coilcraft concentrates more the khz range, and the JW Miller wire size if congruent with other ones is probably more towards mhz.

Some things really benefit from khz area attenuation.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rdsu on 1 Sep 2014, 11:37 pm
Yes, we don't know the JW Miller attenuation, but for their size and specs it seems similar to CMT3-7-9L...

So, maybe the attenuation could be around 300-400kHz 40-50db, but this is just a probability...

I will use it for a SMPS CLC filter.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: noobhacker on 5 Oct 2014, 07:55 am
greetings everyone, i have been messing around felix filter for years because it works, proven by my ears A/B comparison since "my first revision"
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2687806/all
(mods please remove this link if it's not allowed to do so)

I had zero electrical knowledge from school so I really not sure if I'm doing them right

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106322)
This is my first revision, that is not CMC so i moved to the second revision

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106323)
This is my second revision, started to put the filter inside my dac, but...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106324)
That was a very bad and dangerous design, I also heard that Y capacitors help in filtering so i added them...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106325)
My third revision, removed those Y capacitors to follow the original felix design, with Silver plated OCC wires connected, but its extremely friggle

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106326)
My fourth revision, put one more CMC since i ordered in bulk, had 10 of them.
this is a very stable revision but it is still placed in a DAC, I had been messing around modding DAC without professional electrical knowledge so I've replaced a lot of parts and burnt a lot of money. I've bought another DAC and decided not to do any modding on it.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106327)
I decided to do this, just plug to the AC input of DAC then the current is clean. I have several questions :
1. I've read that more mH of the CMC will do the filtering better, so I placed 2, let them parallel with 20mH each, is my logic correct?
2. Also, will those coilcraft CMC does the job better than mine? I can't find that kind of CMC here.
3. Will adding Y capacitors does the job even better?
4. How much voltage is required for those capacitor? more voltage = better? because smaller voltage will bring closer loop due to their small size, also those capacitors are DC rated. If I decided to make a new ones with shorter closed loop, I can only find 4.7,0.47,0.01 uf here

Thanks
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 8 Oct 2014, 12:32 am
1. No parallel won't do much. You're better off following the second set of capacitors with a CMC and then adding a third set of capacitors.
2. Coilcraft makes some fine CMC's, ordering direct may be the only way to get them.
3. Yes and no. Don't add Hot to safety ground Y capacitors. You can use very large to small ones from Neutral to safety ground. **Be sure your neutral and hot are not mixed** More capacitance here is preferred, with multiple capacitors. I use large amounts but as Occam has pointed out, precautions need to be taken to insure neutral and hot are not mixed.
4. What's your countries voltage at the wall? Try to go double. 120v, go for 250v+. If you're at 250v you may only be able to get up to 330-400v.

5. YOU NEED TO HAVE PROPER SIZED CMC AND WIRE FOR THE AMPERAGE OF THE LOAD. The CMC should be rated as 2x the amperage of the device plugged into this filter (your DAC it sounds like). DAC = 3A then CMC should be 5-8A area. Do not use a 3A CMC on a 3A load (DAC or whatever). You need to run wire along the whole distance, that tiny silver stuff may not be large enough. The wires that go from one end of the filter, to the CMC, and from the CMC to the other end, need to be properly sized for amperage. Just solder isn't advisable, nor is tinsel sized silver wire. Your power cables are probably 14-10ga, for example. I don't know all the information, I just know I'd want a more robust current capable wire than solder/tiny silver for safety and quality.

6. DAMN dude, you can post pictures here with diagrams or markings, anything, so we can tell you if it's remotely safe. We aren't liable for your home project but we sure as hell don't want you to get hurt. Some members will tell you not to touch it. I'm fairly certain you can learn, but let's help you do it safely.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: ZAKski288 on 8 Oct 2014, 04:05 am
Need a little help with the Felix project (DC Blocker wiring from Gordy reply# 213, page 11 )  I'm not too knowledgeable about electronics schematics.  Just an audio enthusiast. I took some pictures of what I have  but NEED a little direction Thanks in advance.  Ken
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106499)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106505)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106500)
Caps are Nichicon 3300uF 35V HE(M), Diode bridge rectifier 35A
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106501)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106502)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106504)
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: ZAKski288 on 8 Oct 2014, 04:17 am
I still have more to wire up :o
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106506)


Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 8 Oct 2014, 04:23 am
The positive side of the capacitor is the long lead. It appears there is a jumper between pin 1 & 4 on the bridge.

The capacitors connect to pin 2 & 3. However one capacitors goes long lead to 2, short to 3, and the other long to 3 and short to 2.

Long leads are B and D.

Here's a tip, on the Felix, criss-cross the wires between capacitors if you can.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 8 Oct 2014, 04:26 am
Oh and some of your solder joints look cold perhaps. Make sure the solder runs onto both capacitor/cmc lead and wire.

You can add a little solder to the lead prior (easy) and some to wire prior to combination; you'll see it runs onto it.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: ZAKski288 on 8 Oct 2014, 05:37 am
Thanks for your great expertise (Salis Audio) I'll give it a try tomorrow, also thanks for the tip on soldering I'll go back and add a little solder
      Thanks again Ken
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Occam on 8 Oct 2014, 01:58 pm
.....
I had zero electrical knowledge from school so I really not sure if I'm doing them right
.....

......
3. Yes and no. Don't add Hot to safety ground Y capacitors. You can use very large to small ones from Neutral to safety ground. For example 300-100uf in parallel with a 50-10uf and 1uf-.1uf, will work and doesn't have to be as high of voltage or rated Y/X. It's smart to have Y/X rated ones in this position but the odds are closer to lottery status of needing that in that position.

6. DAMN dude, you can post pictures here with diagrams or markings, anything, so we can tell you if it's remotely safe. We aren't liable for your home project but we sure as hell don't want you to get hurt. Some members will tell you not to touch it. I'm fairly certain you can learn, but let's help you do it safely.

The Felix project was developed with the following safety considerations in mind -
Reversed Hot and Neutral from a receptacle is not considered a wiring 'fault' by safety rating agencies, and any appliance plugged into such a mis-wired receptacle, should function properly under non fault conditions.  Under fault conditions, such as an open safety ground [and many folks foolishly use cheaters to purposely do this to address ground loop hum], the Felix will continue to function. 
3, above does not satisfy any of those standard conditions. A reversed hot and neutral along with an open saftety ground will put enough AC an a normally grounded chassis to kill.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 8 Oct 2014, 02:45 pm
Good point Occam

Sure, it doesn't include Y capacitors. If someone has improper wiring they should address it, or check. Any wall recepticle with ground should not have these reversed (not code). If you search for Y capacitors you'll eventually find information on using higher capacitance, but it may not mention this potential.


Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 8 Oct 2014, 09:58 pm
An absolute safety rule is:
Any and all capacitors used in an AC power line circuit need to have an 'X' or 'Y' safety rating!
Whether it's 'X' or 'Y' depends on the location in the circuit.

Note that the word 'fault' has the meaning of short circuit.  Not the meaning - error.

A great article on troubleshooting wiring errors by an audio guy.

Failures in Outlet Testing Exposed
Jul 15, 2013 Mike Sokol | Electrical Construction and Maintenance

http://ecmweb.com/contractor/failures-outlet-testing-exposed
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Folsom on 9 Oct 2014, 03:33 pm
An absolute safety rule is:
Any and all capacitors used in an AC power line circuit need to have an 'X' or 'Y' safety rating!
Whether it's 'X' or 'Y' depends on the location in the circuit.

Note that the word 'fault' has the meaning of short circuit.  Not the meaning - error.

A great article on troubleshooting wiring errors by an audio guy.

Failures in Outlet Testing Exposed
Jul 15, 2013 Mike Sokol | Electrical Construction and Maintenance

http://ecmweb.com/contractor/failures-outlet-testing-exposed

X and Y capacitors are guaranteed to fail in a predictable manner (not in flames). Right or wrong,  companies selling products in the power conditioning realm are not using them, I guess they're not worried? Just so everyone knows, Digikey allows search parameters for X and Y capacities.

A capacitor from neutral to ground, if always neutral to ground, isn't an issue; if always true. Perhaps a disconnect circuit would be a worthwhile idea. But also the grounding scheme can leave a chassis not hotter than were you to touch a hot plug blade and the chassis simultaneously.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: WireNut on 11 May 2017, 10:20 pm
I realize this is an old thread, but I'd like to ask if the Circuit boards for the Felix are still available ?

Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: richidoo on 12 May 2017, 12:28 am
I still have my unbuilt stuff from the original group buy. PM if interested.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: rtate on 16 Oct 2017, 06:25 pm
I know I may be "beating a dead horse" here but I would like to get some Felix boards if anybody has any kicking around that they aren't using    :wink:
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: richidoo on 16 Oct 2017, 11:08 pm
PM sent
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Halvosh on 25 Aug 2018, 10:49 am
Hello ,
   Im also in the same boat .I would be very pleased if anyone has spares for the Felix i could buy from you .
  Thanks .Shaun
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: drmike on 25 Aug 2018, 05:26 pm
i've got some xtra boards.
drmike
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: BPT on 25 Jun 2021, 07:52 pm
Anyone needing an inexpensive, well made chassis for a multiple Felix project please check out my ad in Trading Post-Accessories.
DIY AC Balanced Power Conditioner Parts Available (audiocircle.com) (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172708.0)
BPT
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: feovo on 11 May 2022, 11:29 pm
hi
    is there any new changes in the design so far? thanks ,
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: feovo on 11 May 2022, 11:30 pm
is this correct
        0,1uF for digital sources, 0,22uF for analog sources and 0,56uF for amplifiers.
Title: Re: Felix project
Post by: Speedskater on 12 May 2022, 01:07 pm
Just some reminders on this old project:
a] all capacitors used in AC power circuits need to be 'X' & 'Y' types.
b] all power filters should be wired as close to their audio components as practicable.