[jsm71]

But then I have about 4 or 5 other MM cartridges which are also better than the Virtuoso...

Interesting.  Which MMs do you like better than the Virtuoso?

[James Romeyn]

Interesting.  Which MMs do you like better than the Virtuoso?

Ditto, same question here. 

As MC fans are well aware, MC performance is defined by the MC cartridge and step up device tandem.  Chain strength can not exceed the weakest link.  The adage "better than the sum of the parts" is void here.  So making MC value judgement without deep understanding of the step up device and also load resistance spec is suspect.  MC step up range from fail to sublime.   

Potential MM advantage over MC seems to be dynamic punch, but again, the MC step up device can limit dynamic performance.  Back in the Shure V15 days dynamics was always its forte over most MC.  IOW, horn speaker systems tended to be ideal match for MM carts, planar speakers for the best MC.     

Of all my MC I preferred Clearaudio Veritas, though others were excellent too.  Veritas was $800 back when I owned it.  My Koetsu Rosewood cost a little less, and it was very nice.  KR had more detail and some other wonderful qualities, but Veritas made you feel like the music got you high (although I've never done any illegal substance).  Veritas increased your love for music like no other cartridge.  At that time John Curl sub-leased office and factory space from VMPS where we assembled speakers.  I owned Curl's Vendetta MC step up, a collector item now (should have kept that one).

I imagine Virtuoso is everything great about Veritas but even more so.   

My favorite phono playback is strain gauge cartridge/demodulator.  Always preferred the best MC and step-up device over any MM.         

After 30-some years, it was fun and interesting to read Tone Audio recommend Ortofon's classic MCA-76 step up device, which I owned and loved.  What a killer combo with MC20 cartridge! 

[Halcro]

Interesting.  Which MMs do you like better than the Virtuoso?

Cartridge preferences are often even more subjective than speakers,cables and arms IMHO.....and are very system and room dependent 
That said.....I haven't really heard a 'modern' MM cartridge which beats some of the vintage 'Classics' like the Signet TK-7LCa and TK-7SU


or the Fidelity Research FR-6SE


or the Shure ML-140HE


or the Signet MR5.0Lc


or the Garrott P77 with Jico SAS stylus


or even the humble Shure V15 TypeIII with SAS stylus


And then there's the world of 'Frankencarts' like the AT-13Ea with 155Lc stylus


or the Signet AM10 with 155Lc stylus




The world of vintage MM cartridges is a rich and rewarding one...

[jsm71]

That's a nice trip down vintage lane.  Nice pics.  How hard is it to find any of those cartridges today or keep them serviced?  The more I read the more evidence I get that a good MC cart with a well matched SUT into my MM phono input may be my best option.

[Halcro]

That's a nice trip down vintage lane.  Nice pics.  How hard is it to find any of those cartridges today or keep them serviced?  The more I read the more evidence I get that a good MC cart with a well matched SUT into my MM phono input may be my best option.

Thanks...
It's not really that hard to find vintage cartridges in near NOS condition. It just takes determination and patience together with an eye on EBay..
I'm not sure what you mean about "servicing"...? If the stylus is in poor condition....it can be replaced or re-tipped easily 
I was merely trying to present the 'other' side to your MC itch....but you seem set on scratching it 
Before you spend $2000 plus more on an SUT....why not buy a new Denon D-103R for $300


This 50 year old design which has been in continuous production.....will give you the taste of a good LOMC and if you like what you hear over the Virtuoso.....then you might consider a Lyra.... ?
Just a thought...

[neobop]

Cartridge preferences are often even more subjective than speakers,cables and arms IMHO.....and are very system and room dependent 
That said.....I haven't really heard a 'modern' MM cartridge which beats some of the vintage 'Classics' like the Signet TK-7LCa and TK-7SU

Jsm71,
That's a nice collection of MMs, but I wouldn't agree that they would all beat a Virtuoso-level 3.  I would add a few to that list, but whether or not you would like them better is a matter of taste and synergy. 

MCs have a slightly different sound IMO. The difference is hard to describe.  It's more audiophile - soundstage, imaging and presentation are emphasized and MMs are more straightforward.  I don't know if that description is adequate, but I think you have a taste of the difference with your friend's Lyra.

Ironically, the Virtuoso sound reminds me of a 103 only more detailed.  Unless a 103 is modified, you already have it beat IMO, and you don't need a step-up.  I don't know how your system compares to your friends'.  Only you can access your prospects of getting similar or better results, but if you got one of the carts listed above, I don't think you'd be happy long term.  A  Signet TK 10ML, AT 20SS, or Grace ruby might?  I don't know that either. 

You haven't mentioned what phono stage you're using and we don't know if it makes sense to keep it and use an SUT, or upgrade that.  Weakest link and all that.  A LOMC and SUT will cost $3K ?   The question is, where is the money best spent?  I think you already know what you're going to do?
neo

[Halcro]

That's a nice collection of MMs, but I wouldn't agree that they would all beat a Virtuoso-level 3.  I would add a few to that list, but whether or not you would like them better is a matter of taste and synergy.

All those cartridges in my system handily outperform the Virtuoso....I have another 25 or so which probably don't 

A  Signet TK 10ML, AT 20SS, or Grace ruby might?

You see what I mean about subjective preferences and synergy...?
I had both the Signet TK 10ML and AT 20SS Limited Edition...and found them similarly highly etched, lacking in tonal colour and devoid of emotional content...
I sold them both....

[neobop]

All those cartridges in my system handily outperform the Virtuoso....I have another 25 or so which probably don't 

You see what I mean about subjective preferences and synergy...?
I had both the Signet TK 10ML and AT 20SS Limited Edition...and found them similarly highly etched, lacking in tonal colour and devoid of emotional content...
I sold them both....

I'm the first to agree about preferences and synergy.  I find the 20SS to be one of the best.  I sold a TK-10MLII back in the '80s before I knew about loading, and for the same reason.  I wish I still had it.

While our assessment of the Virtuoso with an upgraded stylus is quite different (I'm not alone in this opinion), I doubt if JSM71 will be satisfied with one of your recommendations.   I don't prefer one type of generator over another and while going to a LOMC at this juncture, without the gain stage, is anything but cost effective, it's an itch that needs scratching. 

I think the question now is which LOMC.  I'm really not sure which cart would be best with that table.  No doubt the Kleos would be better than Delos, but an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze (approx. $2K) should probably be considered. The Dynevector XX-2 is another.   I really can't make a recommendation.
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/25-cartridges/86-ortofon-cadenza-blue-a-bronze-mc.html
neo

[Halcro]

Code: [Select]

While our assessment of the Virtuoso with an upgraded stylus is quite different (I'm not alone in this opinion), I doubt if JSM71 will be satisfied with one of your recommendations. They were not recommendations......
If you read the preceding posts.....I was asked by the OP and another Poster, what the four or five MM cartridges I owned......had I referred to as "preferring" over the Virtuoso..?
They were not proferred for discussion...but were given as requested..

[Grbluen]

My .02 worth. The 13EA with an upgraded stylus is easily equivalent to the Maestro, although there are some who prefer the Vituoso (I don't have any experience with the Virtuoso). This sounds more like the MM vs MC debate. I, for one, happen to believe that the moving coils have an unnatural sound and prefer the moving magnets. I believe my friend Neo is in the camp which prefers the clinical, lean sound of moving coils. Don't shoot me!

[neobop]

My .02 worth. The 13EA with an upgraded stylus is easily equivalent to the Maestro, although there are some who prefer the Vituoso (I don't have any experience with the Virtuoso). This sounds more like the MM vs MC debate. I, for one, happen to believe that the moving coils have an unnatural sound and prefer the moving magnets. I believe my friend Neo is in the camp which prefers the clinical, lean sound of moving coils. Don't shoot me!

I do like accurate sound, but to characterize MCs as clinical and lean is a mistake.  Some are full sounding with big bass and a rich presentation and others have a noticeable treble lift and/or lean character.  I already stated that I don't really prefer one type over the other.  IMO accurate can apply to either, but people often don't want accurate.  They want what goes best with their system and taste.

High inductance MMs tend to be fuller sounding.  I haven't tried the AT13 motor with a beryllium/LC, but I'm sure you get nice results.  I hear the Virtuoso as being neutral.  The advantage MMs have, is user ability to change the sound by loading.  There's not much you can do with freq resp loading a LOMC. 

But this thread is about Jsm71 and his desire for a "better" sound based on a friend's Lyra.  I suspect, even if he got a MM he likes better than the Virtuoso he'll always be thinking "what if".  You must admit that the majority of people playing records think MCs are better and most of them wouldn't look back.
neo

[Halcro]

But this thread is about Jsm71 and his desire for a "better" sound based on a friend's Lyra.  I suspect, even if he got a MM he likes better than the Virtuoso he'll always be thinking "what if".  You must admit that the majority of people playing records think MCs are better and most of them wouldn't look back.
neo

This is so true...it hurts....

[/mp]

Halcro: smiled at all the pics. did you use a macro lens?

jsm: any further thoughts on mc's? Hope this provides a modicum of usefulness: FWIW, I settled on Van den Hul's, mostly mc-1's, 15+ years ago & haven't felt need to go elsewhere. stylus lasts ~3000 hrs & rebuilds are relatively cheap. Turn around times were kinda long but dealers provided loaners. If I were shopping for a less expensive MC today, I'd start with a Dynovector 17D. I actually preferred their less expensive 23R but it's out of production. Don't get around much these days so I can't provide comparison with current carts. Interested if other do.
 
Your thread prompted my own trip down memory lane. Other cartridges I had include: inexpensive F & G series Grados (dating myself) which were replaced & improved by Grace F9E which was replaced with and improved by Denon 103D's. (Replaced with and improved by VdH.) Just looked in my little box of old cartridges and found the F9E, DL-103D, a c. 1977 white Audio Technica which predates my first Grado, Grado ZC+, Prestige Black & a 8MZ II replacement stylus all bought between the Denon & VdH or between VdH's. There's also a Grado (presumably a 8MZ) mounted on my c.1978 Rega Planer 2 ensconced in bubble wrap since the '90s. The F9E & 103D styli are worn out & their innards are 20-30 years old. Are they worth anything? How does a 103D sound compare with the current 103 & 103R?

Relative preference of carts MC1 > 103D > F9E > Grados. That said, I extended demoed a 8MZ at Lyric HiFi and it sounded just fine in a Goldman Reference TT, Classe DR6, don't recall the amp & big Infinity speakers (had separate ribbon and woofer cabinets but not IRS V)   

As James Romeyn points out, it's all part of a system so for completeness sake:
TT: Phillips 427 (c. 1976-77), Technics ? (77-78), Rega Planer 2 ('78-c.'89), Well Tempered TT&A ('89+)
Phono (section of) Pioneer SX450 ('76-'83), Conrad Johnson PV1 ('83-'91), Classe DR6 ('91+)   

[Halcro]

Halcro: smiled at all the pics. did you use a macro lens?

Glad you liked them mp...
Used the macro function on a pocket Panasonic Lumix.....

[jsm71]

I think the question now is which LOMC.  I'm really not sure which cart would be best with that table.  No doubt the Kleos would be better than Delos, but an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze (approx. $2K) should probably be considered. The Dynevector XX-2 is another.   I really can't make a recommendation.

I'm not set on the Lyra Delos, but it is a cartridge that I've heard many times.  My friend has a modified VPI TNT6 table and vintage SUTs.  I think the Delos sounds quite similar tone wise to the Virtuoso except that is tracks better and quieter, and it is more detailed.  I very much like the tone quality of the Virtuoso.  I feel tone wise it is down the middle.  I have bass and tweeter controls on my JansZen speakers so I have a bit of tone control there if needed.  I mostly use the tweeter control to get the HF just the way I like it.  The Ortofon and Dynevector you list have also caught my eye and both seem fairly well reviewed.  How would they compare tone wise to the Lyra? 

My phono stage is the MM input on a Cary SLP-98P.  I think it is a pretty good MM stage especially with NOS tubes making a noticable improvement.  The Cary doesn't have any load adjustments and the design is pretty simple but well built.  Like many tube preamps I suspect, tube changes are quite easy to detect.  My last phono stage was a MM input on a McIntosh SS preamp.  The Cary sounds better to my ears.

I have read many accounts from people using good to great SUTs that feel running that input into a MM stage sounds better than many MC stages with load and gain controls.  And this is from people with both MC and MM on their phono preamp.  I'm not saying this is gospel, but it makes me feel that I can still get good life from a preamp that I like.  Changing to a full feature phono stage that would outperform SUTs would surely be an expensive route.

[neobop]

I'm not set on the Lyra Delos, but it is a cartridge that I've heard many times.  My friend has a modified VPI TNT6 table and vintage SUTs.  I think the Delos sounds quite similar tone wise to the Virtuoso except that is tracks better and quieter, and it is more detailed.  I very much like the tone quality of the Virtuoso.  I feel tone wise it is down the middle.  I have bass and tweeter controls on my JansZen speakers so I have a bit of tone control there if needed.  I mostly use the tweeter control to get the HF just the way I like it.  The Ortofon and Dynevector you list have also caught my eye and both seem fairly well reviewed.  How would they compare tone wise to the Lyra? 

My phono stage is the MM input on a Cary SLP-98P.  I think it is a pretty good MM stage especially with NOS tubes making a noticable improvement.  The Cary doesn't have any load adjustments and the design is pretty simple but well built.  Like many tube preamps I suspect, tube changes are quite easy to detect.  My last phono stage was a MM input on a McIntosh SS preamp.  The Cary sounds better to my ears.

I have read many accounts from people using good to great SUTs that feel running that input into a MM stage sounds better than many MC stages with load and gain controls.  And this is from people with both MC and MM on their phono preamp.  I'm not saying this is gospel, but it makes me feel that I can still get good life from a preamp that I like.  Changing to a full feature phono stage that would outperform SUTs would surely be an expensive route.

A couple of things to keep in mind, you don't have a TNT and you're not going to get that bottom end solidity.  This matters most on classical (symphonic) music, but it imparts a foundation with everything.  The rest of your systems are also different, I presume, and you'll have to try to interpolate future results.
I'm also surprised the Delos tracks better than your SS Virtuoso.  No doubt your using different arms.  Is your VTF between 2.0 - 2.5g?  Is the tip worn?  The Delos might be a good tracker and your friend might have a better or more appropriate arm, but I wonder if your arm is right for some low compliance MCs.  Do you know the mass?

Although you plan to get one final cart, often the best laid plans.....  You never know.  I suggest making a list of contenders and include their output voltage and internal impedance.  Those are the 2 parameters that have to match a SUT.  A cart with an output of .2mV will need more gain (turns ratio) than one with .5mV.   Most LOMCs are around 6 ohms or so, but a few are 30 - 40 ohms.  I believe the resistance on the primary has to be appropriate for the cart.

Cadenza Bronze - .4mV  - 5 ohms  $2200
  Blue    -  .5mV  -  5 ohms  $1800

Lyra Delos  -  .6mV  - 8.2 ohms  $1650

Dynavector XX-2  -  .28mV  -  6 ohms  $1950
  17D-3    -  .23 mV  -  38 ohms    $1150

Audio Technica ART7  -  .12mV  -  12ohms  $925 (Amazon)
http://eu.audio-technica.com/en/products/cartridges/product.asp?catID=8&subID=57&prodID=4495

Denon DL-S1   -  .15mV  -  40 ohms  $950 

Tell you the truth, in your position I'd go for the ART7.  Someone on Agon said it destroyed his DL-S1 which happens to be a very nice cart.  It also has the most appropriate compliance (I think) for your arm.  ATs are known for their tracking ability.  This one has air core coils.
The Dynavector XX-2 is said to have tremendous bass and that flat Dynavector response. 
The 17D3 is another accurate cart.  Some people find it a little lifeless, but through the right SUT I suspect it would be great. 
neo

[jsm71]

A couple of things to keep in mind, you don't have a TNT and you're not going to get that bottom end solidity.  ....   I'm also surprised the Delos tracks better than your SS Virtuoso.  No doubt your using different arms. 

Yes, it is difficult to make exact comparisons and my longer range goal is to step up to a better table and arm in a few years.  If I did it today it would likely be a VPI Classic II.

As to the choice list of cartridges, they are all good but as you pointed out need to be matched to the SUT.  There seems to be a swell of positive feedback regarding Bob's Devices SUTs.  His SUTs are not fully adjustable so you have to pick the model that best supports your choice of cartridge.  Even with two gain settings they still seem to put you into two somewhat tight ranges of  cartridge choices.  His CineMag 1131 supports the really low output carts but seems to have too much gain for carts with output voltages above .4mV.  The Sky CineMag boasts lower inductance and would be great for the Lyra or Dynavector, but doesn't have enough gain to consider the really LOMCs.

Is there an SUT in the quality (and price) range of Bob's Devices that is fully adjustable?   I'm glad this is so straight forward and doesn't require a lot of thinking.   

[neobop]

Is there an SUT in the quality (and price) range of Bob's Devices that is fully adjustable?   I'm glad this is so straight forward and doesn't require a lot of thinking.   

I don't think so, like Bob's the most you can hope for is to be able to switch between two options. If somebody knows of one I'm sure they'll chime in.  The problem is with the number of windings and it's not practical to switch from the least to the most. 

There's an interesting chart on Bob's site that has impedance on one side and output on the other.  Find where the two intersect and you have the appropriate gain/step up ratio.
https://www.bobsdevices.com/Moving-Coil-Step-Up-Transformers/

The 1131-Blue has ratio of 1:20 or 1:40 and impedance is either 118 or 29 ohms on high gain.  118 might be a good one size fit all for many MCs, but 29 ohms should be inappropriate for a cart like the DL-S1 with an impedance of 40 ohms.  It might be okay for the ART7, but it could be too low. 

The Sky 30 is 1:15 or 1:30.  Sky 20 is 1:10 or 1:20.  Effective impedance is a secret?  You'll have to call Bob and get a sales pitch as well?
Obviously the Sky 20 is the only one for a cart like Lyra, assuming input impedance is appropriate.  The Cadenzas could use the same tranny and you could try both gain ratios.  You should be able to use the 1131 for Cadenzas, but I suspect 1:40 ratio is limited for appropriate carts. 

There is another alternative you might consider - a head amp.  They might not be the reviewer's darling right now, but they get the job done.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7107-graham-slee-elevator-exp-mc-step-up-pre-preamp.aspx

This has fixed gain of 22.5dB.  Assuming your phono stage is 40dB (?), a total gain of 62.5dB should be fine for either the Lyra or Ortofons or others of similar output. 

http://www.haglabs.com/collections/phono-preamps/products/piccolo2-mc-preamp

Something to consider.  I've never heard this head amp, but all of Hagerman's pieces are well received.  I'm of the mindset now where I try to get great results seeing how little I can spend instead of how much.  There are also some nice phono stages for < $1200.  Maybe you can get best results with a SUT and your Cary phono.  I don't know.  I'm trying to run down your options.  I don't care for them myself.  Years ago I had a Kiseki Blue Silverspot. I bought a Cotter SUT and changed the impedance for the Kiseki and it sounded like a disco cart.  Hope you have better luck.
neo

 

[jsm71]

There's an interesting chart on Bob's site that has impedance on one side and output on the other.  Find where the two intersect and you have the appropriate gain/step up ratio.
https://www.bobsdevices.com/Moving-Coil-Step-Up-Transformers/
 

Right, I've seen that and understand the trade offs.  Thanks for all the input.  I've got some thinking to do, but I've got time before my finances catch up.  I usually try to mentally shop when I don't have the funds yet to ovoid quick impulses.  I use the same approach with car shopping. 

[jimdgoulding]

Bob's Devices got a very good review recently.  TAS??  Shelter makes a couple of more affordable MC carts with excellent reports of their sound here and there.  Geez, I almost forgot!  I am using a highly affordable Hagerman Bugle 2 phono pre and think it's excellent.  Not all MC's have rising top ends.  My vintage Koetsu sounds flatter up top than a friend's new Lyra Titan One.  For what he paid for it, I think you should expect more transparency and detail.  But, a rising top end?  Some people jes don't hear enough unamplified music.