AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: AlliumPorrum on 17 Feb 2013, 01:35 pm

Title: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 17 Feb 2013, 01:35 pm
Does anyone have experience on matching GR SW-12-16FR's for basses with NEO-10 for mids? Setup would be a line source dipole, something like 3-4 GR's + maybe ~6 NEO's.

If I have understood correctly, GR's are able to go up to ~200hz. NEO-10's might be able to go a bit below 200hz, at least if maximum SPL is not needed. Anyway, it seems that both of them would be driven close to their limits, so I'm just wondering if it would be a good setup or not? If frequency range is not a problem, would they be a good match to each other sonic wisely?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: sl_1800 on 17 Feb 2013, 03:03 pm
Have you seen this post? http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109918.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109918.0) It's a discussion of the Serenity Acoustics Super 7 which uses 2 GR 12's and 4 Neo 10's per speaker.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 17 Feb 2013, 03:43 pm
Thanks, sl_1800, didn't see that before!

So, if NEO-10's & GR's work so nicely in such a setup, I think that they sould also work fine in a line setup. Any arguments? ;=)
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: sl_1800 on 17 Feb 2013, 03:45 pm
Danny is actually designing a line source for Serenity using several Neo 10s and several GR 12s.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Feb 2013, 06:20 pm
There is a full open baffle line source in the works. Pics of the CAD drawings can be seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110891.msg1146282#msg1146282

There will also be a sealed box version as well.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 17 Feb 2013, 06:54 pm
Well THAT looks great! But maybe a "bit" too expensive for me at the moment...

Do you Danny (or anyone else here) have any experience on the B&G's RD series, like RD-50? Their lowest frequency seems to be 150hz just like with NEO-10's, and the price for two RDs is less than half of 12 NEO's. But are they even close to quality of NEO's, if used as a midrange?

Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Feb 2013, 08:07 pm
Well THAT looks great! But maybe a "bit" too expensive for me at the moment...

Do you Danny (or anyone else here) have any experience on the B&G's RD series, like RD-50? Their lowest frequency seems to be 150hz just like with NEO-10's, and the price for two RDs is less than half of 12 NEO's. But are they even close to quality of NEO's, if used as a midrange?

They are not to the same quality level as the Neo 10's.  They are less dynamic and less detailed. Also the sensitivity is very low on the RD drivers. And I think around 300Hz is the limit of their range. So they don't quite cover all of the mid range.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 21 Feb 2013, 05:03 pm
Well I can understand that they are quite not as good as a line of NEO's surely, but how would you rate them over all for the lower range? I mean, are they worth their price, and how do they compare to other mid drivers on the same price range? Or compared to the commercial planars like Magneplanar?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2013, 06:16 pm
Well I can understand that they are quite not as good as a line of NEO's surely, but how would you rate them over all for the lower range? I mean, are they worth their price, and how do they compare to other mid drivers on the same price range? Or compared to the commercial planars like Magneplanar?

They don't sound bad at all. If they played down to around 150Hz or so then they would be far more usable. With them really not being able to cover all of the mid-range then they really need to be crossed just above that range. Somewhere in the 850Hz to 1kHz range will work fine. But then you need a line of small woofers to go with it, and finding a line of small woofers that will match 85db sensitivity is not happening.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 21 Feb 2013, 06:34 pm
In fact, Parts Express states that RD's would go down to 150hz, just like NEO-10's: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-702&utm_campaign=bazaarvoice&utm_medium=SearchVoice&utm_source=AskAndAnswer&utm_content=Default

???
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2013, 06:39 pm
In fact, Parts Express states that RD's would go down to 150hz, just like NEO-10's: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-702&utm_campaign=bazaarvoice&utm_medium=SearchVoice&utm_source=AskAndAnswer&utm_content=Default

???

Yeah, that is really optimistic and depends on a wide baffle width.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 21 Feb 2013, 08:55 pm
How about the 200hz that is mentioned to be the upper limit for GR 12's? Is it really so, and isn't for example 300hz possible at all? Does it matter if there is 1 GR, or 3-4 on a line?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2013, 08:59 pm
How about the 200hz that is mentioned to be the upper limit for GR 12's? Is it really so, and isn't for example 300hz possible at all? Does it matter if there is 1 GR, or 3-4 on a line?

Just by turning up the crossover dial on the A370PEQ amp you can push the crossover point of the SW-12-16FR's up to 300Hz.

The woofers were designed to be used with two or three units on each amp.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 22 Feb 2013, 07:23 am
Ok, so they CAN go up to 300hz. But are they really GOOD for that?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Feb 2013, 04:17 pm
Ok, so they CAN go up to 300hz. But are they really GOOD for that?

I don't think there is any problem crossing them over at 300Hz.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 22 Feb 2013, 04:36 pm
Thanks for the information Danny!

Do you have any suggestion; what would be the best crossover frequency between SW-12-16FR's and line on NEO-10's?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Feb 2013, 04:55 pm
Thanks for the information Danny!

Do you have any suggestion; what would be the best crossover frequency between SW-12-16FR's and line on NEO-10's?

In the Super-7 that I designed for Serenity Acoustics the crossover point between the Neo 10's and SW-12-16FR's falls in the 200Hz range.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 27 Apr 2013, 09:19 am
Does anyone have experience on those 8" GR servos on an open baffle setup? That would be something like 6 of them in a line. Are they able to produce "enough" bass, since OB setup seems to need quite a lot of surface area anyway?

I'm still a bit concerned that how quite large & heavy 12's are able to match the speed of B&G's mids, and how well they do integrate... Haven't heard them anyway, this is just a thought if the 8's might be better than 12's?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Apr 2013, 01:50 pm
Quote
Does anyone have experience on those 8" GR servos on an open baffle setup?

Yep.

Quote
That would be something like 6 of them in a line. Are they able to produce "enough" bass, since OB setup seems to need quite a lot of surface area anyway?

That would have quite a bit of output.

Quote
I'm still a bit concerned that how quite large & heavy 12's are able to match the speed of B&G's mids,

Servo control man. There is nothing faster.

Quote
and how well they do integrate... Haven't heard them anyway, this is just a thought if the 8's might be better than 12's?

Both are very good.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: SoCalWJS on 27 Apr 2013, 02:00 pm
Does anyone have experience on those 8" GR servos on an open baffle setup? That would be something like 6 of them in a line. Are they able to produce "enough" bass, since OB setup seems to need quite a lot of surface area anyway?

I'm still a bit concerned that how quite large & heavy 12's are able to match the speed of B&G's mids, and how well they do integrate... Haven't heard them anyway, this is just a thought if the 8's might be better than 12's?
The Serenity Super 7's have the 12" OB Servo Woofers mated with the Neo 10's (and 3).

IMHO, they match up really well. Didn't notice any "speed" issues with the bass at all. Best of both (all?) worlds. Transparent mid's and highs along with the famous OB 12" Servo woof's  :thumb:

What's not to like?  :green:

Danny matched them up very well with the Super 7's. There are (apparently) many issues that need to be addressed in the design stages or there will be an uneven response.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: bdp24 on 27 Apr 2013, 03:08 pm
Plus, Ric Schultz at EVS is making speakers with GR12-16FR's, Neo 10's, and Neo 3's. Not bargain priced, but cheaper than the Serenity's.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: cab on 27 Apr 2013, 03:46 pm
Seems he is talking about making them. Has anyone seen them?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: emailtim on 27 Apr 2013, 05:15 pm
"... How about 6 GR Research 12 inch servo woofers per channel mounted on their own baffle.  Driven by two servo amps per channel. ..."

Talk about plenty of Dipole bass !!!
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: bdp24 on 28 Apr 2013, 03:33 am
Seems he is talking about making them. Has anyone seen them?

Only on his website, unfinished. Triple layer MDF baffles, like I did for my stacked-Quad stands.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: bdp24 on 28 Apr 2013, 03:38 am
"... How about 6 GR Research 12 inch servo woofers per channel mounted on their own baffle.  Driven by two servo amps per channel. ..."

Talk about plenty of Dipole bass !!!

Would be easy to do with the new 400w/400w dual-channel Rythmik plate amp. 3-12's per side is enough to keep up with my Quad ESL's. Now if I had some efficient horns.....
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 28 Apr 2013, 08:59 am
Thanks for all the replies until now!
Does the servo functionality somehow reduce the significance of the moving mass? I mean; Mms fo the 12" is over twice the Mms of the 8", and I think in the "traditional" bass driver without a servo that would make a great difference on the basses resolution and speed. But how is this with GR's; is there any significant difference between them?

Or hey, why not take best of both worlds; three 8's in line for the range 60 - 250hz, and 12's below and above them for the 20-60hz (12-8-8-8-12) ;=) 
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: jparkhur on 28 Apr 2013, 02:24 pm
A.   Start at the top.   http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111297.0


Jon
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: studiotech on 28 Apr 2013, 03:12 pm
Only on his website, unfinished. Triple layer MDF baffles, like I did for my stacked-Quad stands.

Link?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 28 Apr 2013, 04:35 pm
Would be easy to do with the new 400w/400w dual-channel Rythmik plate amp. 3-12's per side is enough to keep up with my Quad ESL's. Now if I had some efficient horns.....

How many drivers can this new amp drive? Could it even handle 6 pieces of 8-inchers per channel, i.e. one amp could handle both channels?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: HAL on 28 Apr 2013, 05:00 pm
Link?

http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/OPEN_BAFFLE_SPEAKERS.html (http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/OPEN_BAFFLE_SPEAKERS.html)
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: bdp24 on 28 Apr 2013, 08:52 pm
How many drivers can this new amp drive? Could it even handle 6 pieces of 8-inchers per channel, i.e. one amp could handle both channels?

The amps can handle anything down to around 4 ohms (which is also where their maximum output is), so one 4 ohm driver, two 8 ohm drivers, or three 16 ohm drivers per amp channel.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Apr 2013, 08:57 pm
Quote
Does the servo functionality somehow reduce the significance of the moving mass?

Moving mass is a fixed physical element. However, the servo control system does add a considerable amount of stopping force. So setting time is considerably faster than an uncontrolled driver.

Quote
I mean; Mms fo the 12" is over twice the Mms of the 8", and I think in the "traditional" bass driver without a servo that would make a great difference on the basses resolution and speed. But how is this with GR's; is there any significant difference between them?

Moving mass still makes a difference.

Quote
Or hey, why not take best of both worlds; three 8's in line for the range 60 - 250hz, and 12's below and above them for the 20-60hz (12-8-8-8-12) ;=)

Filter extension settings on the new amps for the 8" woofers have 20Hz, 30Hz, and 40Hz settings. So one could pull them back a bit and use larger 12" servo subs to cover the ranges down into the teens. 

Quote
Would be easy to do with the new 400w/400w dual-channel Rythmik plate amp. 3-12's per side is enough to keep up with my Quad ESL's.

Whenever they become available that will be great.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: bdp24 on 28 Apr 2013, 09:35 pm
Danny---Since three of your 16 ohm 12's per side is plenty for me (crossed-over at 80hz to my stacked double Quad 57's)---infact, two might be enough---I don't need the new amps. I got a pair of the A370's to drive the 12's, pairs of which I'm buying as I prepare to build H-frames (with sand-filled side panels, the idea for which I got first from your 12-04 sandbox design, and then from Perry R's great jukebox-looking Super-V's) to put them in. But for others whose main speakers have more output than mine, the new dual-channel 400's might be just the ticket for a super-dynamic bargain priced world-beater! 
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 30 Apr 2013, 02:20 pm
The amps can handle anything down to around 4 ohms (which is also where their maximum output is), so one 4 ohm driver, two 8 ohm drivers, or three 16 ohm drivers per amp channel.

Can't they be connected in parallel or series?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 30 Apr 2013, 03:00 pm
Can't they be connected in parallel or series?

Voice coils can be paralleled but all of the sensing coils have to be in series. You can parallel driver coils until you get down to 4 ohms and that's it.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 30 Apr 2013, 04:48 pm
Ok. But wouldn't actually 4 drivers with 16 ohms be 4 ohms..?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 30 Apr 2013, 05:05 pm
Ok. But wouldn't actually 4 drivers with 16 ohms be 4 ohms..?

DCR is about 13.9 ohms per woofer. So three of them get you to 4.63 ohms. Brian says the amps will handle the 3.4 ohm load but they could run a little hot on them. I'm for being a bit more conservative. Three per amp is good.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: AlliumPorrum on 30 Apr 2013, 05:11 pm
I understood that these new amps are Hypex (UCD?) based? If so, even 2 ohms shouldn't be a problem, and 4 drivers per channel should be possible. But how is it..?
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: Danny Richie on 30 Apr 2013, 05:14 pm
I understood that these new amps are Hypec (UCD?) based? If so, even 2 ohms shouldn't be a problem, and 4 drivers per channel should be possible. But how is it..?

Brian has some new Hypec based amps in the works, but all of these A370PEQ's are just like the older ones. They are all a class A/B amp.
Title: Re: GR 12's & NEO-10's?
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on 30 Apr 2013, 10:30 pm
Or hey, why not take best of both worlds; three 8's in line for the range 60 - 250hz, and 12's below and above them for the 20-60hz (12-8-8-8-12) ;=)

I asked Brian this Jan.

I am assuming the new hypex amps are completely dual mono after the single power supply.
If the servo feedback circuits are truly isolated.
c] Is it be possible to run both SW-12-16FR and SW-8-16FR off of the same dual mono plate amp?
d] With a bit of soldering would it be possible to have different x-over and extension setting for each channel?

Thinking way outside the box ... Shawn

Brian
The servo feedback circuits are truly isolated. But we use the trick of pseudo complementary (or BTL) so that there are always equal (or similar) amount of current drawn from the positive and negative power supply caps. If you mix drivers, that condition of pseudo BTL is no longer true. All of advantage is lost. In short, we don’t recommend mixing different drivers on our dual mono amps.

Dang N'amit
Great minds think alike, fools seldom differ.
Shawn