[optimationman]

Would like to have a few opinions.  I presently have a likeable system, but would like a bit more.  The system consist of the following;

Arcam/Denon 5000 combination frontend.  It is coupled to a 200/230 watt mono block with very short Belden 1694a cables.  Both source and amps are modded to my satifaction.  They are connected through Cat5(DIY) short speaker cables, at the end Dynaudio Contour 1.5 mk2s.  The room has acoustic mods consisting of tube traps, first reflex point walls and ceiling covered, full carpet floor.  Demensions are 17 x 12 x 8.

Now the question/opinion.  I was thinking of getting a set of Von Schweikert VR-5 HSE.  Are these to big for the room, even if using them near field?  I think that I can hear the 1st order crossover issue with the dynaudios.  I have the face of the Dynaudios 41" from the front/back wall, sitting about the same from the opposite back/front wall.  Using the maximum space in the room is just far enough away from them to get tweeter/midwoofer integration.  The VR-5s have forth order crossovers which I assume would not present the integration issues but what about "to much speaker".  I listen to acoustic and jazz with the occational pop rock.  What do you think?  I can't afford new equipment so used is my only way.............

[JLM]

You'd like a bit more of what exactly?

Bass overload would be the obvious concern, regardless of set-up.  Bass behaves in waves, like in a shallow tub, crashing into each other to cancel out or in sync to reinforce each other.  This +/- 20 dB effect will vary by location and frequency.  No amount of treatment or EQ can solve this.  The only fix is multiple bass generators (search for "swarm" here at Audio Circle).

Conventional thinking would prefer 1st order crossover to 4th order for better driver integration.

I'd like to see the room dimensional ratios varied a bit (width is 1.5 times height, length almost exactly twice the height, both recipes for reinforcement versus preferred diffused ratios).

(My room is 21 x 13 x 8 with similar set-up, ala Cardas, and have no problems with driver integration with my single driver speakers.   )

[optimationman]

Thanks for the response.  I am looking for better sound, what most of us here are doing.  I was thinking that I wanted to get a more even sound from a better designed speaker.  I have read that the bass on the Von Schweikert speakers are quite tunable(sp?).   With the present acoustic  treatments I feel that the bass response is good enough for me.

I am new at the room acoustic issues.  Have done a lot of reading about the subject and I am now into affecting the needed changes.  The room dimensions, from what I have read are really quite good, albeit small.  Running a program which estimates peak/nulls shows that although are many peaks and nulls, there is an evenness to the amplitudes.  Changing the dimensions of the room is not possible in my case. 

I guess I should move this question to the Von Schweikert thread.

[JLM]

Read Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction" as a good primer for room acoustics.  Much cheaper than new speakers/room treatments.

The room is really nothing more than the giant speaker cabinet you listen inside of.

As bass and higher frequencies behave differently, the last thing you want is for them to be locked into the same location/design concept.


Can't get much more flexible bass than from 4 subwoofers with typical phase, crossover frequency adjustments, and volume controls.

[OzarkTom]

I would go with KEF LS50's or similar smaller speakers for a room that size. Smaller speakers will give you a much better soundstage tnan the large ones will.

[mick wolfe]

Would like to have a few opinions.  I presently have a likeable system, but would like a bit more.  The system consist of the following;

Arcam/Denon 5000 combination frontend.  It is coupled to a 200/230 watt mono block with very short Belden 1694a cables.  Both source and amps are modded to my satifaction.  They are connected through Cat5(DIY) short speaker cables, at the end Dynaudio Contour 1.5 mk2s.  The room has acoustic mods consisting of tube traps, first reflex point walls and ceiling covered, full carpet floor.  Demensions are 17 x 12 x 8.

Now the question/opinion.  I was thinking of getting a set of Von Schweikert VR-5 HSE.  Are these to big for the room, even if using them near field?  I think that I can hear the 1st order crossover issue with the dynaudios.  I have the face of the Dynaudios 41" from the front/back wall, sitting about the same from the opposite back/front wall.  Using the maximum space in the room is just far enough away from them to get tweeter/midwoofer integration.  The VR-5s have forth order crossovers which I assume would not present the integration issues but what about "to much speaker".  I listen to acoustic and jazz with the occational pop rock.  What do you think?  I can't afford new equipment so used is my only way.............

My room is a bit smaller, but I've never found anything that comes close to the Ohm 1000's when it comes to overcoming the handicaps associated with smaller rooms. The guy has truly done his homework. Your room is a little bigger and might be a better match for the 2000 series. 120 day audition period. I listen to a lot of acoustic jazz, blues and folk. A perfect fit for me, but as always YMMV. No affiliation with Ohm.....just an honest opinion.

[drummermitchell]

Curious,aren,t tube traps geared to a certain frequency instead of a broader range.
That could mess things up I would think.
Have heard that Coverage is very important.
My room is close in size to yours 12x19x7 but not quite.
I use 50a's in mine plus a ......1812 sub and it is tight tight tight and bitchin midbass punch.
I tried some tuned traps and well ............no improvement,went with Realtraps and for me end of story.
I did go thru a few other types also,but when the HF traps gave me more effects that were on the recording which were buried with the others,I was sold.
If Realtraps Mondos can control an 1812 in my room,I'm sure it they will give you a lot more than tube traps or other tuned traps which i did experiment with a few and I believe part of the pitch was every room has those low 40-60hz or 100 hzfrequencies(but they forget the rest and (sales ,sales sales).
Being thru a bit of different traps, RT's do it for me albeit expensive with shipping.

[jimtranr]

I didn't find that tube traps "messed things up" in my setup--they actually affect a broader range of frequencies than the specified lower effective limit determined by their given diameter--but I've achieved better results using twice-to-three-times-as-wide 4"-deep panels (GIK's in this instance) for reflection control in the same spaces (along with 17" soffits in the corners). So in my case area "coverage" has been the key.

[erniejade]

My room is 10X11 and on the 10 foot wall, there is a 6 foot x 13" deep cutout that has a built in bookshelf /  rack. On the right, it opens up to a hallway.  It was like this when I bought the place. I have Legacy Focus speakers and I could never get them to sound right in this room. The bass almost was not there and I had to use a sub across the room on a -180 phase to have bass! No way in a room like this should I have to have a sub running but, because of wave cancellation, it caused issues.

  I have tried flipping the room several times but I run into issues because of the built in cutout sucking all the bass up or if I want to get a speaker beyond it, then one speaker has 3 feet behind it and the other one has under 2 and again bass or imaging just is not right. Flipping the room 90 degrees didnt work because the wall that opens up to the hallway on one side, the other side opens to the garage door so I can;'t put the chair or speakers in that path.

Someone in this thread said a stand mount or bookie would image way better in a smaller room and I have found this statement to be dead on. Right now I am bouncing between a set of Polk LSI9 and Evolution Acoustics MMMicroone. Both image much better than the Legacy did because of the small room.

Your small room, Does it open up to anything? or do you have 2 full opposite walls that don't have doors or open up to anything?  Your Dynaudio Contour 1.5 mk2s, any bass issues currently?  When you say nearfield, how many feet are you from the speaker? in a room with your specs you should be able to get at least 5-6 feet from the speaker yes?   The Von Schweikert VR-5 HSE are a darn good speaker and I have heard they are forgiving on placement. I think if your not having any bass or imaging issues with your 1.5's, you should be ok with the vr-5.

[jimdgoulding]

Speaking of smaller speakers . . Those of you considering might due well to read Robert J. Reina's very detailed review in the September issue of Stereophile of the Revel Performa3 M106.  He's quite impressed with these on about every level and he details it better than most reviewers I am aware of.  He's tempted me to buy a pair and I know just the integrated tube amp I'd put in front of them.  They have 6.5" mid/woofers and that's cool cause I don't want to have to buy or use a sub.  I gather from the review that bigger speakers are not needed.

[optimationman]

Thanks for all the discussion.  Right now I am still working the acoustic issues with the room.  I was advised to remove the equipment rack between the speaker, so I moved the equipment to the floor and against the back wall.  That resulted in a very new acoustic experience and all has to start over.  I have been experimenting and have most of the sound stage back, it really did change a bunch.  The room does have openings, and I have placed panels to cover the hall opening(just happens to be a second reflection point matched panel on the opposite side) and have place a large absorption panel to compensate for the opening in the back corner on the opposite side.  The 1.3 mk2 make enough bass for me so no subs here.  I have two preferred sitting positions 1 . ten feet away  2. eight feet away depending on music and my mood.  The first give the best overall tone, the second the best sound stage.  The back wall has a large picture window with blind, and a steel outside door.  I have used panels around these and will continue to experiment. 

[Tyson]

There's only 2 real viable paths to dealing with bass in most rooms - go Open Baffle or use multiple box subs.

1.  Open baffle interacts with the room differently than a sealed box, so you avoid a lot of room problems in the first place. 

2.  Multiple box subs work by averaging out the peaks and valleys by having multiple sources of bass.  This gives you a smoother in-room response.  Downside is cost and space. 

The worst solution is having 2 "box" full range speakers.  Sigh, but it's what most people do, because they can't think outside their preconceived notions.... They'd be better off either going to OB speakers, or using smaller box speakers combined with 3 or 4 box subs scattered throughout the room.

[erniejade]

Tyson, I never thought of trying open baffle in my room. When I had a large room I used to run carver amazing. I sold them when I changed to the smaller room and never thought to try a smaller version or that type in here. I am going to give that a try next!

[mav52]

There's only 2 real viable paths to dealing with bass in most rooms - go Open Baffle or use multiple box subs.

1.  Open baffle interacts with the room differently than a sealed box, so you avoid a lot of room problems in the first place. 

2.  Multiple box subs work by averaging out the peaks and valleys by having multiple sources of bass.  This gives you a smoother in-room response.  Downside is cost and space. 

The worst solution is having 2 "box" full range speakers.  Sigh, but it's what most people do, because they can't think outside their preconceived notions.... They'd be better off either going to OB speakers, or using smaller box speakers combined with 3 or 4 box subs scattered throughout the room.

I wonder how would Maggies ( MMG) work in a small room

[Tyson]

I wonder how would Maggies ( MMG) work in a small room

Great, as long as you can get them 3 feet from the back wall.

[mav52]

Great, as long as you can get them 3 feet from the back wall.

Understand, so something like Emerald Physics CS2.3 MK2 speakers should be a better fit for a small room.

[Tyson]

OB's work really well in most rooms, if they are well done.  The new Emerald Physics are great as are the Hawthorne audio offerings.  Even the new kit from GR Research is supposed to be pretty phenomenal and very inexpensive.

Oh, one other viable option is building OB subs as stands for bookshelf sized box speakers.  Gives you the added bass with way less room boom.

[Rclark]

I wonder how would Maggies ( MMG) work in a small room

extremely well, as long as you let them dominate the room. Extremely well, sonic nirvana

[firedog]

I have a room that is 16 X 10 X 8.5.  With room treatments. My speakers aren't small bookshelves and the room sounds really good.

The answer is it really depends on your speakers and setup. There is no "right" answer.  Some floor standers are fine in a room the size of yours (if treated), and others aren't. I'm not familiar with the speakers you asked about, so I can't answer your specific question.

[JLM]

What constitutes small versus large rooms/speakers needs some definition to add context/meaning to this thread.

For instance I'd consider firedog's room (1360 cu. ft.) as rather minimal for a good listening space.  Note too that in small rooms, the shape (proportion of width to height to length) is more critical to avoid echo reinforcement.

And I'd look past just the speaker's F3 rating to also consider roll off, cabinet design (sealed, ported, rear loaded horn, open baffle, etc.) as they can affect in-room bass response.

I have an 8 ft x 13 ft x 21 ft listening room (2100 cu. ft., ala Cardas proportions) with F3=25Hz transmission line speakers (well out into the room, near field setup) with no "room-boom" issues.


BTW 1st order crossovers are often thought of as offering the best design for blending of drivers (no quick jumps of sound from woofer to tweeter), so I don't understand that comment from the O.P.