Choices of Subwoofer for Criterion and Diluceo

HChi · « **on:** 15 May 2003, 02:09 pm »

I have followed the threads on Criterion and Diluceo reviews, also 1801. They seems to be excellent speakers. I wonder which subwoofer(s) does each owner use to compliment its (relatively 'gentle') bass? A few sub's come to mind: Rel Strata III, Storm III, Stadium III, ML Descent and Depth, and Revel B15. Please share your findings and setup tips.

Thanks,
-Howard

brad b · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 May 2003, 03:35 pm »

I have the REL Strata III which works great, after a month of trying to get rid of the midbass haze!!!

It was my fault, as I could not bring myself to keep lowering the setting below 40 hz. for the transition to the Diluceo's. I settled on 34 hz as the transition, which mates up with my room and the Diluceo's very well.

There are a bunch of knowledgeable people that have also used the VMPS and other DIY kits with a lot of success. Depends on the room and if you want to use an active cross over to allow the Diluceo to stay above 60 hz. or just snug the sub up under as I currently have it. I will say that with the midwoofers, you can let them play full range without the usual cone excursion from a single driver IMO, and they sound damn good. Mike M has offered me to listen to his outboard crossover, but I have not had time to get over to his house to grab the thing. Boy if you didn't have kids you could actually listen to some of this hi end gear!!!
Brad

Brian Bunge · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 May 2003, 04:24 pm »

I hear the REL's are nice and I'm partial to the ACI Titan II for a purely music sub. Especially considering the price.

But you guys know I'll never buy another commercial sub. Too many compromises for me. If you have room (that's the kicker) I'd prefer to build a sealed sub with a low Q (.6 or lower) and then use a quality amp and an outboard parametric EQ if necessary. Also, the Revel sub's output specs are dubious at best. Something crazy like 120 or 130dB from 30Hz and up. No way, no how in any room big enough for both you and the sub to fit in at the same time.

Or better yet, you could build a dipole sub but you'd need multiple drivers to get decent output.

doug s. · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 May 2003, 04:33 pm »

i lurked for two years on the diy basslist - i was gonna build a pair of subs. but, i ended up buying a pair of vmps larger subs instead. i could find nothing to approach the performance - extension, accuracy, & spl - at anywhere near the price, even for diy... even including the added cost of outboard x-over & amplification.

they have worked great w/my main monitors, as well as a host of other speakers i've had in my lsitening room. including the criterion's, which i have auditioned, & written about on this list.

doug s.

OBF · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 May 2003, 06:34 pm »

Doug, have you ever checked out dipole subs as Brian mentioned? I'd like to, but they're certainly not very common.

doug s. · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 May 2003, 07:07 pm »

no, obf, never tried them. i mite consider them - if it weren't so darned happy w/what i now have!

the only tings i had heard prior to the vmps were the standard suspects, like velodyne, rel, & hsu. i was suitably unimpressed, even w/the $3k velodynes. cheaper hsu's were better, but still not what i was looking for... re: spl's, dunno about the revels, but i *do* believe vmps' specs for their larger sub, when they state it will do 120+ db's w/less than 5% distortion. at ~8cu.ft., they certainly aren't tiny, but i have no problem fitting in my room w/a pair!

good dipole sub info an be found at siegfried linkwitz's site:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/models.htm

doug s.

Brian Bunge · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 May 2003, 07:10 pm »

Dipoles are supposed to be the best, most accurate bass you can have. I've not tried them out yet though. The downside is that you have to have roughly 4x the surface area than if you used a single driver in a traditional box.

If I had the proper setup I'd like to try an IB. At least there wouldn't be any sub in the room then.

OBF · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 May 2003, 07:28 pm »

That's my understanding, that essentially to equal one 12" sub, you'd need a pair of dipoles with 4 drivers total. I might be willing to give that a shot, but the electronics scares me off since you have to equalize the dipole cancellation. Linkwitz has plenty of information, but you still need to take his generic boards and build your own circuits.

I also believe that if you only want your subs crossed in the 40 to 60hz range, dipoles don't do much except require more drivers and power and cost. Its the higher bass frequencies where they really excel.

I've heard others say that dipole bass is better than IB too.

doug s. · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 May 2003, 07:41 pm »

if ya want dipole bass, yust take a second sub directly behind the 1st, facing the other direction, (forward-firing subs only, of course!

), and wire it outta phase. but, it seems the same loss-of-spl issues would still apply...

doug s.

HChi · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 May 2003, 02:20 pm »

doug,
I checked the VMPS' website. The larger subwoofer is recommened to x-over between 60-250hz. What is the x-over frequency you use with your current monitor speakers and Criterion? Also what x-over and amp do you use with the sub? What were the other sub's your compared? Some of the questions may not be GR-related, if concerned please email me instead.

-Howard

BikeWNC · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 May 2003, 02:45 pm »

When I auditioned the Critereon speakers, I used a Rel Strata III set at 28 Hz in my 16 x 14 room, with good results.

Andy

doug s. · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 May 2003, 03:32 pm »

hi howard,

before i got my subs, i heard the hsu's (older wersions - shorter & fatter), and various velodynes, including their biggest 18" model. (realize these were also older wersions - i got my subs a while ago!

in fact, my subs are the older upright style. megawoofers weren't invented yet, either; i have since upgraded my drivers to the megawoofers. as you may have figured out, i have a pair of these!

)

none of the above-mentioned subs compared w/the bass of big full-range vmps i heard at the time. the vmps' had basically the same bass component of their larger subs. and, my subwoofer rig, including amplification & x-over, cost less than *one* top-line velodyne.

for amplification, i originally was using a bridged pair of original adcom gfa555's, then i found they sounded better unbridged, yust using one channel of each amp for each sub. then, vmps' brian cheney sent me a pair of binding posts, so i split the two drivers in each sub to go to separate binding posts, & ran each stereo channel to each of the subs' two active drivers. they are now operating at 8 ohms, instead of 4 ohms... several months ago, i found a second electrocompaniet aw75dmb to match one i awreddy had; i am now using these in place of the adcoms. i sold one adcom, the other went in a secondary system, where the aw75 prewiously resided.

i am using a marchand xm-9LL active x-over, w/a 60hz x-over frequency. i have successfully used 60-125, depending on amplification/monitors used. 100hz min was needed, for example, when i had the 8wpc asl wave-8's driving my monitors. at their 88db/1w/1m efficiency, 8w yust wasn't enuff to drive 'em below 100hz in my big room.

re: the criterions, i was going to use a 80hz x-over point for them, cuz they don't go quite as low as my monitors, but danny said 60hz would be perfect, so i kept the marchand at 60hz. and, it *was* fine - seamless blend...

if you go into the audiocircle gallery, you can find pics of my room, & equipment set-up, if this helps put things in perspective. it's my opinion that, regardless of room size, best results will be w/a pair of subs. if only one sub is practical, then it should be placed *directly* between the monitors, nearfield being best, crossed over as low as possibble... and, i also feel using a passive sub w/outboard active x-over & amplification is best - relieving your monitors of those lowest frequencies is a good thing, & powered subs' electronics do not allow this to be done in a transparent-enuff manner, imo...

hth,

doug s.

HChi · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 May 2003, 03:21 am »

Andy,
28hz, ooh that's low! How far away are they from one another and from the side and back walls? I thought it's only (conservatively) rated down to 45Hz.

-Howard

brad b · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 May 2003, 09:14 am »

Howard: there are a bunch of threads of the REL at AA talking about the fact that the controls indicating lower frequency settings may not be accurate. You need to trust your ears, and get rid of the haze in the midbase. As I posted earlier, my REL is at 34 hz with the speakers 2' from side walls, 5' from the rear walls. Each room will provide different bass reinforcement. Also, the Criterion in my room go below 55 hz, down 3 db, because of the room layout I guess.
Brad

BikeWNC · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 May 2003, 12:56 pm »

Howard,

When I had the Criterions, Diluceos are on the way

, I measured the bass response with my Tact RSC 2.0 to 40 Hz in my room before it began to fall off. My Rel sub is positioned in a corner, which after much experimentation, provides the best mix and resolution. I used the Tact to produce flat bass with the Rel to 20 Hz. The 28 Hz crossover on the Rel displayed the best frequency curve before correction was applied.

As far as placement goes, having a young child has placed constraints on system setup. The Criterions were about 30 in from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them and about 6 1/2 ft apart. I agree that placing the speakers farther out into the room would help smooth out the bass. Fortunately, I have the Tact to help with that.

Andy

doug s. · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 May 2003, 03:30 pm »

howard, almost everyone w/rel subs use them w/their internal x-over set really low, & runs their monitors full-range. i never heard of anyone getting good results w/them using its x-over to hi-pass their monitors. i briefly tried a rel strata (being returned cuz a relative couldn't get it to work in his system), and it was one-note-thump. admittedly, i tried it in my huge kitchen, & dint take time to try to locate it. but, not being able to hi-pass my monitors makes powered subs like the rels a non-starter for me. (besides their being way-expensive!) two vmps largers and one marchand xm9-LL x-over, along w/one adcom gfa555 purchased new back in '85, and another one to match, purchased used, still cost quite a bit less than two rel strata's.

ymmv,

doug s.

BikeWNC · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 May 2003, 03:14 pm »

I have found that spending the time to place the Rel sub is critical to it's performance. I too have experienced a soft one-note bass from the Strata III. However, with proper placement, the Strata III produces tight, fast, well delineated bass. Something as simple as moving it a few inches either way out of the corner can make a big improvement.

randog · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 May 2003, 05:14 pm »

I have the speakers (or similar) Howard - the original poster - asks about (GR-R AV-1's and Ellis 1801's). In researching subs in case I feel the need down the road, I've been very intrigued by either a DIY or the Vandersteen 2Wq's - tho I haven't heard them yet.

Doug, have you heard or compared the Vandersteens to your 'crop'?

Randog