[OBF]

Hi Danny,

I exchanged a couple emails with you this week on the Criterion kits.  I had pretty much decided on the Criterion, but with the MTM kits available or soon-to-be available, I have a couple questions on which would be more appropriate for my needs.

If I don't run a sub, then I'm sure the MTM would be clearly superior in a large room.  However, if I include cabinet costs, it'll cost me approx $250 more for the MTM.  I'm wondering if I'd be better off with the MTM full range or spending the money on a sub and actively (which would cost more) crossing the original Criterion at 60hz?

Which leads me to the 2nd part of my question.  Is the MTM crossover essentially the same (other than compensating for the dual woofers and sensitivity issues) as the Criterion and do they measure approx the same?  Basically, I'm wondering if the MTM is improved in any way in the midrange and top end other than having more bass impact, under the assumption that both were actively crossed at 60hz and the woofers were not reaching their limits in either case?

Thanks,
OBF

[Danny Richie]

If I don't run a sub, then I'm sure the MTM would be clearly superior in a large room.

It does move more air but does not play down lower.

However, if I include cabinet costs, it'll cost me approx $250 more for the MTM.

The new MTM version will be $995. in kit form and the enclosures will be $225. each. These are real heavy built enclosures too.

$1,445. for the kit with enclosures while the Criterion is $1,249. for the kit with enclosures. That is only $196. more for the MTM version.

I'm wondering if I'd be better off with the MTM full range or spending the money on a sub and actively (which would cost more) crossing the original Criterion at 60hz?

Since they are both -3db down at 55Hz I would use both of them with a sub.

Is the MTM crossover essentially the same (other than compensating for the dual woofers and sensitivity issues) as the Criterion and do they measure approx the same?

The crossover is not at all the same.

The MTM version uses a parallel network and it utilizes a lower crossover point of 2.6kHz verses the Criterion crossing at 3.4kHz.

This allows the speed and detail level of the ribbon to shine a little more.

The lower crossover point does decrease power handling a little (with the ribbon) but with the sensitivity up 6db over the Criterion it doesn't take near as much to start hitting some higher SPL levels either.

The MTM version also has a ruler flat frequency response just like the Criterion. (about +/-1 to 1.2db)

Basically, I'm wondering if the MTM is improved in any way in the midrange and top end other than having more bass impact,

The upper midrange is a little improved by the lower crossover point and the fact that less cone movement is needed to reach the same SPL level. The detail in the highs (2.5kHz to 4kHz) is also slightly improved since the ribbon is now handling more in that area than before.

All in all the MTM version exceeds the Criterion in most areas with the possible drawback, for some, being the 4 ohm impedance.

Good questions.

The MTM version is completed and all is in stock and ready to ship.

I will try to get some info to the web site as soon as possible.

I already have Brian building a couple of pairs of these enclosures in Maple and look forward to getting you guys some pics of the finished product.

Due to the heavy weight of these I do not think I will send around demo pairs of them. Packaged like the others that are in circulation, (wood create and all) shipping weight on a completed pair would be about 110 to 115 lbs at least and maybe even more.

[brad b]

For my room, monitors are the way to go, and I'm really looking forward to receiving my pair of Maple GR MTM No Names.  Have you figured out what you're gonna call these puppies.  We can't give birth without a name you know!
Regards,
Brad

[OBF]

Danny,

I was basing my price differential off custom cabinets.

Speaking of power handling, my amp is pretty much designed for a 4 ohm load so that doesn't bother me.  Is the power handling only a marginal difference?  I was actually glad to hear the Criterion likes a lot of power thrown at it as it means I'd actually be using my amp.  With the 4 ohm load and much higher sensitivity of the MTM, my amp would barely even have to work and I wonder if that's a good or bad thing.

I get confused about absolute results between power handling and sensitivity.  With the lower crossover point, the tweeter can't take as much power, but it takes less watts for a given SPL........so, assuming an amp that doesn't care and an active crossover at 60hz removing the very bottom end, which speaker can smoothly produce higher SPLs in a large room?

Thanks.

[Val]

This is a fascinating thread because of the difficulties in saying anything of value when talking about SOTA designs such as the two Criterions, and theoretically, to boot! To go beyond what Danny has already said, you would need to compare both speakers in your own room and system. As is true with any really small speaker, the Criterion wasn't designed for high volumes, the fact that it can do it is just another sign of its high quality and a bonus for the purchaser.

Depending on how big your room is and how loud you want the small speaker to go, actively removing bass takes care of the main problem with small drivers, Doppler and other IM distortions, and this will tend to minimize any midrange differences between the two designs. Since there is no free lunch, however, the crossover has to be clean enough for the (more midrange clarity) improvement to work. Few crossovers pass this test, in my experience.

Other fascinating, and to me more important issues are series vs. parallel crossover; the different tweeter crossover points; the way a MTM design throws a soundstage, vs. a MT.

Taking into account the relatively small difference in price, Danny has just made everything more difficult for us, an embarrassment of riches!


Val

[OBF]

Val,

I totally agree.  It's a good problem to have.  I just wish I understood all the factors better....as you said, the differences between the two crossovers, the lower crossover point, MTM dispersion, and how it all ultimately affects the sound and absolute SPL levels.

It would be nice in theory to try them both in my system but I plan to start with the speakers and then add the active crossover and sub/s so that's not going to happen.

I agree it is tough to talk absolutes with SOTA designs and different systems, and that's why I chose to just ask the more basic question for my particular circumstances, i.e. large room, strong amp capable of either 4 or 8 ohms, and the intent to actively remove the very bottom end.  What does it all mean?      

[doug s.]

hi danny,

in the criterion review on a/a, you stated:
===============
<<<"How about an MTM version that is about 91db?
I have been shooting responses and doing some tweaking on it off and on over the last two days. Looks great so far.

The only drawback I see is to the SET guys that want an 8 ohm speaker. This one is definitely 4 ohms with a minimum impedance dip of 3.5 ohms.

Everything has pros and cons.

The Criterion does have low sensitivity but it also has high power handling. A couple of guys have already thrown 200 to 500 watt amps on them and drove them hard with no problems.

Send a 100 watt peak to the Criterion and the tweeter only sees about 9 watts due to the circuit design. The crossover point of nearly 3.4kHz helps protect it a lot too.

The MTM version allows the tweeter to cross lower (around 2.6kHz) and it has less power pulled off of it by the network so its power handling is less, but then again it plays twice as loud with the same power. Moves twice as much air too.

Maybe later on if these move well enough I will have some 16 ohm woofers made to create a 90 to 91db 8 ohm version for the SET guys to get excited about. We'll see...">>>
================
so, the way i read this is you need *four* times the power to reach the same spl w/the original criterion as w/the mtm wersion.  even if the mtm is not able to take as much power as the criterion, surely it can take at least *half* the power, no?  this would still make its max loudness capability at least 3db better than the original criterion...

doug s.

[Danny Richie]

Is the power handling only a marginal difference?

There is only a power handling difference in terms of the tweeter.

In the MTM design the tweeter will not handle as much power but hit a higher SPL level than the Criterion can.

In the Criterion the woofer will reach its mechanical limits before anything else.

Doug S. is correct also. You would have to put 4 times the power on the Criterion to hit the same output level of the MTM design.

With the MTM design your ears are likely to give out before the drivers will.

With the 4 ohm load and much higher sensitivity of the MTM, my amp would barely even have to work and I wonder if that's a good or bad thing.

Actually this is a great thing. This is like giving your amp more head room.

which speaker can smoothly produce higher SPLs in a large room?

Of the two of them the MTM design will more effortlessly produce the higher SPL levels.

Other fascinating, and to me more important issues are series vs. parallel crossover; the different tweeter crossover points; the way a MTM design throws a soundstage, vs. a MT.

In this regard the MTM deign will surprise you.

Taking into account the relatively small difference in price, Danny has just made everything more difficult for us, an embarrassment of riches!

I worried about this too.

Just as everyone is starting to think the Criterion is the bomb, a bigger bomb is dropped.

[audiojerry]

Great info. Great questions and great answers.

For the sake of argument, how much would it cost for someone owning the Criterion to later convert to the MTM, excluding the cost of cabinets?

[Danny Richie]

For the crossover parts and two more woofers it looks like about $345.

[Val]

Hmm. Not good, the difficulties in deciding keep piling up.

[Rocket]

hello danny,

i'm just curious to know what the dimensions of the mtm criterions are?

are the drivers your using expensive?  i'm possibly thinking of buying a pair later in the year.

thanks for your comments in advance.

regards

rod

[JohnR]

G'day Rod, you can see the raw driver prices here (in $CA), they are the ARG2 and the ETON5

http://www.creativesound.ca/products.php?category=Drivers

[Brian Bunge]

I'll try to answer the enclosure dimension question.  I don't have the plans in front of me so this is totally off the top of my head.  IIRC, the enclosures are 17 7/8"H x 8"W x 12 5/8"D.

We got all of the MDF cut Friday and my dad more than likely got them assembled yesterday.  We should have the enclosures veneered by the end of the week.

[Rocket]

hello,

thanks for the thread with the information.  i'm toying with the idea of importing a kit into australia, i'm a big fan of ribbon tweeters.  i have a pair of speakers which use the raven 1 ribbon tweeter and 7 inch kevlar focals mtm design.

anyway thanks for the information.

regards

rod