Open Aire Aktiv build thread

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jimbones

Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« on: 4 Jun 2017, 07:07 pm »
Here's a build thread on my latest project. The system is built around the 2x12 OB H Frame with Rhytmik XO-amps. I have designed the uppers using the Satori MW16P and TW29R. I may eventually go to a MTM set up on the uppers.

I have called it Open Aire because they are full open baffle and Aktiv since the woofer section is using an active crossover and is bi-amped. However, I am not using active XO or DSP on the top.

Life got in the way so I had a local cabinet maker build the raw cabinets. Later I brought him Tineo veneer and thats where I took over.










jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #1 on: 4 Jun 2017, 07:11 pm »
Here is a before and after sanding sealer.






jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #2 on: 4 Jun 2017, 07:14 pm »
Fort the first time since I can not remember when we had a nice weather day in NY. It has rained everyday and is still in the 50's here. So 70 and dry was perfect for spraying. I did the inside of the cabinet satin black and gloss lacquer on the outside.




Peter J

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Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #3 on: 4 Jun 2017, 08:43 pm »
Well done! I have to say that Tineo veneer is really handsome. I'd never even heard of it until Jay posted about using it.

 Thanks for posting your progress, I really enjoy seeing other peoples projects and hope it encourages others to do same.

gregfisk

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Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #4 on: 5 Jun 2017, 06:32 am »
Well done! I have to say that Tineo veneer is really handsome. I'd never even heard of it until Jay posted about using it.

 Thanks for posting your progress, I really enjoy seeing other peoples projects and hope it encourages others to do the same.

Peter, your project going right now is absolutely mesmerizing, I really enjoy the thinking/working out side the box on your finishing designs. The finishing processes you are doing inspire open thought and are fun to be a part of. 

jimbones, the Tineo veneer in really striking especially with the continuation of the grain.

I don't post as much as I should on these build threads but I really enjoy them more than just about anything else.



Thanks guys.

Greg

jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #5 on: 5 Jun 2017, 02:07 pm »
Peter, I'd like to see the project that you are working on, can you share the link or key search word?

jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #6 on: 5 Jun 2017, 11:40 pm »
Hi Jim, I'm guessing you found a sand filled sub build? Only one I remember posting about cutting and buffing, but that would have been automotive urethane.

Lots of info on the web. Unfortunately some is utter crap.

 I'll tell you what I know.

 I think the Behlen lacquer is nitrocellulose (often called simply nitro). Nitro has some great properties for speaker finishing, less so for other things because many modern finishes are catalyzed which adds speed to curing and enhances durability. In a production setting, the speed is important. A project like yours, patience will be your friend. Simply put, a good finish takes time, both for curing and "finishing" the finish.

 It can be sprayed coat after coat without much concern for total film thickness. That's the plus side. The down side is because it's not catalyzed, it takes a long time to  really cure hard enough to really work with a buffer. I'd probably wait a month after last coats...longer if it's possible.

I don't know the grain structure on Tineo never having used it, but a really smooth, flat, high gloss "piano" finish requires grain filling. That can be accomplished with lacquer, but the process is long with nitro...it just doesn't have the body and solids content that is present in commercial finishes. Spray, sand flat, spray, sand flat, lather, rinse repeat...more times than many have patience for.

Jim, you should understand that I differentiate between a high gloss finish and a "piano" finish. First will show grain when looking at it with glancing light. Piano is like glass...absolutely flat.

I think the biggest problems people have spraying finishes in general is not getting wet coats and not taking enough to complete. We're just accustomed to rush, rush rush, but I suppose that's touching on a personal philosophy of mine. With most finishes, the ideal would be a film thickness that's just shy of running and sagging. A hard  thing to accomplish. With nitro though, if you get a run, it can just be sanded flat and recoated.

Excluding a lot of variables your finishing schedule might looks like this.

Sand what you have FLAT with a hard rubber block or similar.

Repeat  process a few times. You need a significant film thickness to be able to sand and buff.

Once you've got it where you want grain fill wise, set it aside for a few weeks, then cut and buff. Enjoy the journey!  I remember reading  a long time ago that finishing is the boondoggle of woodworking.  We tend to rush the very thing that will be most visible in the end game.

If you're a reader, I'd recommend "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. Probably the single most informative reference I've encountered. Demystifies a lot of finishing folklore, I still refer to it now and then even though I've probably had it for 20 or more years.

Also some good finishing info from Jeff Jewitt at Homestead. http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/

You could also look at the wood finishing forum on Woodweb, but it's primarily pros using products the DIY market never sees, plus there's folks there that seem to patrol for DIY's so they can scare them away.

Hope that helps you out. FWIW, I prefer to have this info "in thread" so everyone reading can potentially benefit. Feel free to cut and paste in yours if you like.

Best, Peter


jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #7 on: 6 Jun 2017, 12:11 am »
The above was a discussion I was having with Peter regarding Piano finish. I have a dilemma as my original plan was piano finish but now I am starting to like what I see. There may be more risk in messing with finish.



This is a photo of the finish without touching it. I almost tempted to leave it as is. Opinions?

mlundy57

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #8 on: 6 Jun 2017, 12:17 am »
The basic rule I've always heard is when you are satisfied with the finish, it's done.

I can't come close to a piano finish with a spray gun. Satin, semi-gloss or gloss yes but that's it for me with spraying.

Up close and personal the speakers in my avatar do look very close to a piano gloss but that finish is not sprayed. It is a hand rubbed shellac in a style known as French Polish. Basically hundreds of microscopically thin coats of shellac built up in bodying sessions with rubbing out sessions between every three to five bodying sessions.

But as Peter said, this level of finish takes a lot of work. It took me three months of nights and weekends to get to this level. Even then, with French Polishing the stopping point is when you are satisfied with the depth and luster of the finish.

Mike

Peter J

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Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #9 on: 6 Jun 2017, 01:44 am »
Jim, there's a common thought that more coats is gonna smooth things out. And that's true to some degree, but mostly it's the sanding between coats that makes a finish look good. The first coats I'd consider sealer. It locks the hairy wood fibers in place and preps them for sanding flat.

Showing the grain isn't a bad thing, it's just a different look. Filled finishes look nice to my eye because I appreciate what it takes to get there. In many cases though, it also robs the wood of an organic feel that I also like.  High gloss used to be the benchmark of good furniture, but it tends to obscure grain because of reflective surface. Duller sheens are prevalent now.

Were I to advise you, I'd suggest sanding what you've got flat with 220 or so to remove the hairy grain and then reshoot a few coats. Let that dry a few days and rub out with 0000 steel wool and lubricant...you want lubricant but it's often overlooked. Wool Lube is one I have on hand.

You're just a kiss away from something I bet you'd like even more.

jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #10 on: 6 Jun 2017, 02:24 am »
Jim, there's a common thought that more coats is gonna smooth things out. And that's true to some degree, but mostly it's the sanding between coats that makes a finish look good. The first coats I'd consider sealer. It locks the hairy wood fibers in place and preps them for sanding flat.

Showing the grain isn't a bad thing, it's just a different look. Filled finishes look nice to my eye because I appreciate what it takes to get there. In many cases though, it also robs the wood of an organic feel that I also like.  High gloss used to be the benchmark of good furniture, but it tends to obscure grain because of reflective surface. Duller sheens are prevalent now.

Were I to advise you, I'd suggest sanding what you've got flat with 220 or so to remove the hairy grain and then reshoot a few coats. Let that dry a few days and rub out with 0000 steel wool and lubricant...you want lubricant but it's often overlooked. Wool Lube is one I have on hand.


Peter, you nailed it. I was thinking that as much as I want to get that glass finish something was artificial about it. But you use the term organic which is exactly what i was thinking but couldn't communicate. I can tell you I dont see any hairs on this, it is smmooooooottthhh. Now I can probably get better if I sand and reshoot as you say. I read on woodweb to use Murphys oil soap and water as a lube.

You're just a kiss away from something I bet you'd like even more.

Danny Richie

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Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #11 on: 6 Jun 2017, 02:04 pm »
Man, those are beautiful.

Captainhemo

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #12 on: 8 Jun 2017, 03:18 pm »
I missed this thread but, they look  great  jimbones.
I agrree with Peter, if you want a  perfectly flat surface,  block sanding and  multiple  klight coats ... keep taking the high areas off.
Personally, I kind of like the grain showing through a bit 

jay

jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #13 on: 8 Jun 2017, 11:59 pm »
Thanks for the advice and words of encouragement. I have decided I am going to sand down and shoot again. I will not be doing the "piano" finish. As pointed out having the grain come through a bit is a nice touch.

Now a bit of mystery  :lol:






What could these be? stay tuned.

Peter J

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Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #14 on: 9 Jun 2017, 12:19 am »
Let's see. A pencil, a cast iron saw table, some primed wood things. Do I get a prize?

 

jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #15 on: 9 Jun 2017, 12:55 am »
ha ha ha. want to try a design detail, not sure it will work but if it comes out the way I want it to I think it will be nice.  :lol:

mlundy57

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #16 on: 9 Jun 2017, 01:14 am »
ha ha ha. want to try a design detail, not sure it will work but if it comes out the way I want it to I think it will be nice.  :lol:

You and Peter sound like kindred spirits  :thumb:

jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jun 2017, 12:00 am »



I toof Peters advice ands sanded with 320 and shot more lacquer. I  feel it came out flatter and more consistent. Thanks Peter.

ebag4

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jun 2017, 12:13 am »
Those are gorgeous Jim, love that veneer.

Best,
Ed

jimbones

Re: Open Aire Aktiv build thread
« Reply #19 on: 12 Jun 2017, 12:14 am »

Starting grill frames


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