Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build

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Folsom

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #40 on: 9 Nov 2016, 01:02 am »
Well, you surely think alike.


ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #41 on: 9 Nov 2016, 01:07 am »
Well, you surely think alike.


Agreed, looks like the goal is to minimize that transition although the reduction of the angle on that unit is smaller by choice, the angle reduces towards the rear on mine due to the wedge shape of the MTM.  Interesting, thanks for posting, if I can get these to look anything nearly as refined as those I will be happy.

Best,
Ed

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #42 on: 27 Nov 2016, 08:48 pm »
Not much progress over the last few weeks, life keeps getting in the way.  I did find a few hours to work on them this extended weekend.  Finally started veneering today.  I also built the grill frames and did a little painting since the last entry, see below:






Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #43 on: 27 Nov 2016, 09:24 pm »
Nice veneer. That should really pop with a finish

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #44 on: 28 Nov 2016, 01:49 am »
Nice veneer. That should really pop with a finish

Mike
Thanks Mike, I hope so.  My finishing technique can certainly use improvement.  I thought I would go with a sanding sealer on this build, I have not used it in the past.  I also picked up a can of spray shellac to try and  see how I like it, Shellac will be a first for me as well.  I typically use a general finishes water based poly, I think I will go with an oil base this time, I seem to recall reading you can poly over the shellac. 

Best,
Ed

Captainhemo

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #45 on: 28 Nov 2016, 02:40 am »
Ed, I'm anxious to see that  veneer with a finish on it as well,   agree with Mike, think it will really   come to life.

So many different ways of finishing the  veneer...  sure I don['t havwe to say this but no matter what you choose, if it's something new,  do some test pieces to figure out if it's what you want

looking forward to seeing more as always

ja

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #46 on: 28 Nov 2016, 03:54 am »
Shellac is probably my favorite finish though I have never tried spraying it. Be sure you use a dewaxed shellac, especially if you plan on putting something different over it.

A lot of sanding sealers are shellac.

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #47 on: 4 Dec 2016, 01:34 am »
Shellac is probably my favorite finish though I have never tried spraying it. Be sure you use a dewaxed shellac, especially if you plan on putting something different over it.

A lot of sanding sealers are shellac.

Mike
Thanks Mike, I checked, the spray shellac is wax free.  I have a test strip, the shellac and the oil based poly both darkened the veneer quite a bit, the sanding sealer topped with shllac and the sanding sealer topped with poly both kept the veneer much lighter.  I haven't made up my mind yet regarding finish.

One thing I have run into is that the veneer softener has changed the color of the veneer, it started fairly red, the red has come off when using the softener, changing the veneer's slightly red color to brown.   Joe has been great at trying to figure out what happened, going as far as testing his own plane tree Burl, but he couldn't recreate it.  I now believe that there must have been some type of coloring on the veneer, it colors the paper towel used to dab up the moisture.  I first used the softener as prescribed to flatten veneer, I thought that might have led to the color changing, but after the first sheets changed, I decided to try it without pre softening, instead just using the softener after applying the veneer, this has worked well however the color change still occurs.  The veneer looks great even though it s not as red as I had hoped, the softener has kept the veneer from splitting. 

What would be the preferred way to add a hint of red back to the veneer?  Could I add tint to the sanding sealer?  Recommendations are appreciated.

Here are a few pics for your amusement:







One large panel left to do.  A note for someone trying heat lock for the first time.  I wanted to keep the heat to a minimum on this Burl to minimize splitting.  To do that I try to let the heat lock set up the minimum amount (if the glue on either the veneer or the panel are the least bit tacky, they stick together like contact cement) if you are doing a large panel and you set the veneer on the panel with glue that is still tacky that is where the veneer stays, using wax paper between them, gradually pulling the paper out as you use the iron makes this much easier.

Edit: re-reading what I said above, it reads as if I applied veneer with the glue tacky, this is not correct and not the way it is meant to work.  However in an effort to to apply the veneer the moment it was dry, I would have a situation where an edge where I had applied tape to the face would have a bit of glue built up or a small area of glue on the veneer was applied thicker and barely still tacky; in these cases, where the veneer lands it can stick, this can ruin a piece of veneer and create a lot of work to remove.  This is why I mention the wax paper trick, I'm sure it saved me more than once.  Sorry for the rambling, Ed.

Best,
Ed
« Last Edit: 11 Dec 2016, 12:07 am by ebag4 »

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #48 on: 4 Dec 2016, 04:37 am »
Ed,

You can use red TransTint. It will work with any solvent. If you use water, make sure it is good and dry before putting anything else over it.

You determine how red it is by how much dye you add.

A good technique is to wipe the dye on, let it dry, then sand it back. Repeat one more time. This should give the red you want and make the figure pop. If you want the background a little darker, but not necessarily redder, you can mix a little black dye with the red.

Check out Charles Neil's instructions for Trace Coating to Enhance figure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjTSIiUiEOI

This is part 2 of a three part series. Be sure to watch all three parts, especially part 3 on Trace Coating Cautions.

Definitely practice on scraps until you get the effect you want.

If you don't want to have the pieces stick together you need to let them dry until they are no longer cool to the touch. The glue can be dry and not feel tacky but if it feels cool it is still a little moist and, as you noticed, will grab like contact paper. If it is no longer cool to the touch you won't need the wax paper. The veneer won't stick until you apply heat and pressure.

Looking good

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #49 on: 4 Dec 2016, 05:10 am »
Thanks for the Transtint info Mike, I will definitely look into that. 

I realize I can let the heat lock dry longer, but it has been my experience, the longer it dries the longer you have to apply heat. For this Burl there seemed to be a happy medium where I could just let it dry long enough not to be tacky and minimum heating time, it still had to be heated, but just not as long as it did when I let the glue dry longer than necessary.

Best,
Ed

Captainhemo

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #50 on: 4 Dec 2016, 08:10 pm »
Looking really good Ed  :thumb:
We just  did anotgher pair of subs for someone and used the  same veneer softner. When I wiped the softner on with a sponge, it really  seemed to  change the color  of the wood ( another local user told me this mayhappen).  Once the  veneer was applied and  sanded with a  foam sanding blcok, the discoloration disappeared.  I don't know if this would be the case for youi as it sems to be taking something away (red0  rather  than  darkening or adding a bit of color  like it seemed to do in our case

Remember too, if any  areas of the heat lock atre totally dry, it takes the  full  temp ( I can't recall what that is)  to full re-activate and completely bond. I get what you are  doing by trying to  attach while  still a bit tacky, just be careful you  get a  true bond.  I've read  numerous  times about heat lock failing  due to not being fully reactivated.

Also, regarding the  dye and adding  some red back into your veneer. Remember, if there is ANY glue on the surface or   it has bled through from the rear side in any amount, the dye will  not take.  I learned this  the first hand when I  used  the blood red dye on the  last pair of encore cabinets. In the end, I was able to fix  them up but   it gave me a good scare when I ended up with a couple blotches where the dye didn't take
Just something to be aware of

jay

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #51 on: 4 Dec 2016, 11:02 pm »
Thanks Jay.  I have done a little sanding, I think this is a different situation than what you experienced.  Thanks for the tip on the glue, with some of the occlusions, although only a few are "holes" through the the veneer, there are a few, I will need to check the seams as well.

Best,
Ed

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #52 on: 5 Dec 2016, 04:11 am »
One last piece done today, not cleaned up yet but starting to take shape:




Best,
Ed

fishboat

  • Jr. Member
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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #53 on: 5 Dec 2016, 03:28 pm »
Ed..nice veneer and nice work. 

I do some woodworking and have used shellac for some time.   I think nearly any (desirable) finish is going to darken the veneer somewhat.  I've seen kitchen cab makers use conversion varnishes that keep the wood very light, but the finish itself, appearance-wise, looked bad to me..cloudy.  Though I don't doubt their finish was resistant to anything found in a kitchen.  I saw their finish completely kill some (what would have been) gorgeous quarter-sawn white oak.  Sad to see..I had to walk away.

I use shellac on nearly every piece I make.  On a burl it would be a must-do for me as shellac pops/adds depth to the grain, curl, chatoyance like few other finishes can.  Some oils do it well, but oils tend to go darker than shellac..in my experience.   One other nice option with shellac, in addition to popping the grain, is that shellac can be purchased in many different natural shades..see:

https://www.shellac.net/

Garnet shellac has a nice reddish-amber tint to it.  There are many.

Shellac can also be tinted with Transtint.  Transtint dye is great stuff.  Very forgiving when you apply it as it evens out very well. It can be applied with a distilled water carrier or water-alcohol mix, or alcohol carrier.  Transtint seems pricey, but a drop goes a long ways when dying wood.   One thing to think about with any stain/dye application and veneer is how the dye carrier may interact with the veneer glue.  Dyes look MUCH MUCH better than traditional oil or water based stains.  Transtint looks terrible on wood after it dries(like mud)..but the subsequent shellac or topcoats make it look gorgeous.

For some info on how to use Transtint, see the link below.  You probably won't be doing a 'mission finish', but it's a good article of general finishing pathways.

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/stickley.pdf

Shellac is also a universal sealer.  Many sanding sealers are a light shellac cut (half-pound?).  Shellac will prevent subsequent finish coats from diving into the wood.  Shellac can be coated with nearly any topcoat..oil or water based. Shellac itself is a poor topcoat from a water/oil resistance point of view..it's sensitive (appearance-wise) to most anything, so it isn't great in areas where finish-resistance properties are needed.  Shellac can be applied to nearly any (water/oil based) finish without issues...assuming the alcohol carrier doesn't impact the base finish..and it may.  Shellac is an effective conversion coat between oil and water finishes..say..linseed or gunstock oil on bare wood and a water-based topcoat. (wood -> oil -> shellac -> waterbased topcoat finish schedule)

Spraying shellac with a gravity gun makes life very easy & you get great results.  Shellac can be sprayed at low temps..I've sprayed it outside at 35 degrees without issues.  Just make sure the humidity isn't real high as you can get some blushing (white haze) in the finish.  Shellac dries so fast it's very difficult to brush on a flat-wide surface without getting unsightly overlap..I've never been successful on flat surfaces and brushing.  Spraying..easy..with great results.  Harbor Freight as good-inexpensive spray guns if you have a compressor..with dry-oil free air.

If you don't like what a shellac coat looks like, wipe it off with alcohol (ethanol) and start over. 

A typical finish schedule for me is wood -> transtint -> shellac -> oil or waterbased topcoat, depending on enduse requirements/desirability.

Take any furniture polishes ("Pledge..etc") and toss them in the garbage..they are silicon oil based..aaacck!

..quasi random thoughts..

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #54 on: 5 Dec 2016, 04:54 pm »
With shellac, when I want to show off the wood with no color change I use dewaxed super blonde shellac flakes. Super blonde is clear.

Mike

jseipp

  • Jr. Member
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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #55 on: 5 Dec 2016, 05:27 pm »
Those look great, Ed!  I've loved each iteration, and especially the adventurous approach you've taken to each design.  People are keeping the inspiration level high around here....

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #56 on: 6 Dec 2016, 02:33 am »
Hey John, thanks, the experimentation is the fun part assuming I'm not in a time crunch.  I love picking up ideas from the guys on this site, some of them are real artist.

Mike, FB, thanks for the info.  FB, thanks for the "typical finish schedule, that helps quite a bit.

I ordered red Transtint and I have been reading up on Crystalac wood grain filler, I am considering it to get a smooth finish, input is welcome.  Using Crystalac would allow me to mix the Transtint with it, of course another option is to do a wash with the Transtint before the Crystalac.  I believe the wash would enhance the figuring more where mixing with Crystalac would give the overall speaker a red tint leaving the figuring as it is now.  I will try both on some test strips in the end, but your experiences are appreciated.  Would there be a reason to use shellac over Crystalac or would it make more sense to go straight to poly?  Of course it seems many would go with shellac and not bother with the sealer ( both of which I could also mix with the Transtint).  Using the Transtint as a wash and mixed with the finish might be too much, Mike mentioned using black as a wash which might be a nice contrast.  I'm not going to have a lot of excess veneer to play too much, so hopefully I am able to land on an acceptable finish before having to use the speaker as a test strip. :thumb:  BTW, I don't own a large enough compressor to spray although I do have a new paint gun that I considered giving a shot a one point, with that in mind, what would be the best way to apply shellac if I would go that way.

Does anyone know if plane tree Burl goes blotchy with dyes?

Guys, thanks for sharing your knowledge here, it is appreciated.

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #57 on: 6 Dec 2016, 03:45 am »
Ed,

The general rule of thumb is for the pore fill color to be darker than the main color. When you do a pore fill you sand it back to 220 after it dries. Then check to see if all the pores are filled. If not, do a second pore fill and sand it back to 320.  Then apply your finish.

If your finish is not compatible with your pore fill, apply one or two light coats (no more than 1 pound cut) of dewaxed shellac before applying the finish.

I have no idea about how your burl will handle dye. It depends on how hard the grain is that surrounds the softer grain of the figure. If the surrounding grain is hard enough the dye will stay in the figure, enhancing it. However, if the surrounding grain is not hard enough, the dye will bleed out of the figure resulting in a blotchy mess.  A test on scrap is essential to prevent an undesirable surprise  :nono:

Mike

fishboat

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 64
Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #58 on: 6 Dec 2016, 02:27 pm »
I ordered red Transtint and I have been reading up on Crystalac wood grain filler, I am considering it to get a smooth finish, input is welcome. 

Crystalac is good stuff and it works well.  As lundy suggests, fillers are often used as a dark in-grain accent.  If you look at the transtint/homestead link I posted earlier, the gel stain is serving the purpose of a dark-grain-filling accent in the mission finishes.  Visible grain in the finish surface is just another aesthetic choice..much like satin vs gloss vs flat topcoat. If you want an "oiled-wood" fine-finish appearance, then a filler & topcoat takes you away from that. 

Using Crystalac would allow me to mix the Transtint with it, of course another option is to do a wash with the Transtint before the Crystalac.  I believe the wash would enhance the figuring more where mixing with Crystalac would give the overall speaker a red tint leaving the figuring as it is now. 

Yes..you could mix Transtint(TT) with Crystalac(CL), but dying the wood and tinting the filler is really two different steps with different results intended. You may(??) get similar results by tinting the CL alone..but you may not & it's a one-way trip.  If it comes out bad, there's no reverse. If you're going to use TT with or without CL, I'd suggest using a gram (0.0 or 0.00) scale to prep your solutions. Keep track of what you mix up so you can reproduce it if you run short and need another batch.  A little TT goes a long way.

If it were me..I'd dye the wood independently from filling, if I wanted the wood tinted. I'd hit it with TT, then shellac to seal it(prevent more..uncontrolled color being added), then CL to fill the pores..either tinted or not. If you dye, then seal it with blonde shellac you'll be locking in the grain enhancement..from that point on you'll only start decreasing the enhancement with fillers, topcoats..etc...unless you topcoat with only a high-gloss finish.  The CL does have a slight whiteish haze if it gets thick.  Satin or flat topcoats have gloss flattening agents in them that slightly reduce that clear-grain-detail. 


I will try both on some test strips in the end, but your experiences are appreciated. 

Think hard and lots of test strips..like I said..some steps are a one way trip.  Messing things up after all your work so far.. :((..

Would there be a reason to use shellac over Crystalac or would it make more sense to go straight to poly? 

I think you can go straight to a topcoat.  Water-white clear topcoats sounds like what you're looking for(General Finishes products are my first choice)..there are some good ones out there.  Minwax has a waterbased acrylic ..Polycrylic.. (satin) that looks nice and is easy to apply. I'm not a fan of Minwax products, but Polycrylic is fine.  CL has waterbased clear topcoats too..very good. If a very slight..nearly none amber topcoat works for you then General Finishes Arm-R-Seal (satin) is a forgiving wipe on modified oil finish and is great stuff. Resistant to most anything too and gives a bare-wood appearance if you use just a couple coats. If you use this..send up a flare..there's a few tips that make it easier. 

Of course it seems many would go with shellac and not bother with the sealer ( both of which I could also mix with the Transtint).

You're mixing terms..shellac is a sealer, "the sealer" is, I assume,  CL grain filler..I think.

Using the Transtint as a wash and mixed with the finish might be too much, Mike mentioned using black as a wash which might be a nice contrast. 

Terminology again...finishing can involve "wash coats" (as in applying a sanding sealer), but in this context you're dyeing, or filling, or sealing, or topcoating...  Be very careful about "using black as a wash.."  if you don't do this exactly right you'll end up with mud as a final appearance. A black-tinted filler on top of a shellac seal coat is controllable, but can/will darken the overall appearance of your piece. If you use a filler wipe it near dry when applying at 90 degrees to the grain direction.

I'm not going to have a lot of excess veneer to play too much, so hopefully I am able to land on an acceptable finish before having to use the speaker as a test strip. :thumb:  BTW, I don't own a large enough compressor to spray although I do have a new paint gun that I considered giving a shot a one point, with that in mind, what would be the best way to apply shellac if I would go that way.

I can only speak for myself..but I wouldn't consider shellac application possible(on flat-broad surfaces to yield excellent results) without spraying it. And for some of the finish schedule options you're discussing, they'd only be successful with mixing shellac seal coats in at the right points.  I have a version of this gun:

http://www.harborfreight.com/20-oz-high-volume-low-pressure-gravity-feed-spray-gun-47016.html

and right out of the box it'll yield great results. You can use flat cardboard to optimize the spray pattern & gun adjustments prior to spraying your pieces.  A one pound shellac cut is good.  Jeff Jewitt has a spray finishing book with included DVD that covers everything you need to know..and more.


Does anyone know if plane tree Burl goes blotchy with dyes?

Blotching would be a real concern for me. Lundy describes the issue well.  I haven't worked with burl, but, given the grain appearance, I'd think blotching would happen.   Charles Neil has a blotch control product that actually works quite well. It will limit your ability to dye wood as it's a partial sealer.  One way to control-avoid blotching is color wood by spray-toning rather than dyeing directly.  I did this a while back with a curly-cherry table I built.  Dying this wood without controlling blotch would have been a disaster.  With toning you're coloring the wood with a surface coating..if the coating stays on the surface the color-dye  won't dive into the grain to create a blotch.  A lousy photo of the tabletop is below.  Freshly milled cherry has a pinky color to it that isn't that nice.  Age and light exposure will amber it down nicely, but that look can be had right away with sprayed garnet shellac..which I did here.  The sprayed shellac avoided blotch, enhanced the curl-grain, added color, and sealed the surface all in one step.  I topcoated the shellac with satin Arm-r-Seal.  The photo below is only wood with garnet shellac..the topcoats came later.


 [/i]

Guys, thanks for sharing your knowledge here, it is appreciated.

Best,
Ed

See comments in italics above..

fishboat

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 64
Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #59 on: 6 Dec 2016, 02:48 pm »
Ed..btw..I have a Super V build that is l-o-n-g...l-o-n-g overdue and I remember your SV set & amp from my Super V research a couple years ago.  Very nice work on both!  I may be rattling your cage at some point as I'm sure I'll have questions.  I have a finished Sketchup build model worked up and all the parts needed, I just haven't had the time to start making sawdust yet.