AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 8 Jul 2010, 11:33 pm

Title: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jul 2010, 11:33 pm
I am going to use this tread to document a crossover assembly. I'll cover some do's and don'ts and try to make it as easy as possible to follow.

In this example I am going to be assembling the crossovers for Guys V-2's. This pair, along with a bunch of other stuff is going to Vietnam.

I will update this as time permits and as work progresses on the build.

The first thing is to figure out the space available for the crossover. In this case the crossover is mounted on the back side of the speaker, in plain view, right below the open baffle coaxial driver.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/back%20side2.jpg)

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/back%20side.jpg)

The space for the crossover leaves plenty of room for a crossover board that is 7.5" by 8.75". This gives plenty of room for layout without crowding.

More coming....
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: NeilT on 8 Jul 2010, 11:42 pm
Looks like I picked a good time to build a crossover.
Thanks Danny.  :D
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Bonk on 9 Jul 2010, 01:32 pm
Kewl .  :thumb:
I am ready to be schooled .  8)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2010, 02:34 pm
Okay, once you have the space laid out, the next thing is to fit all the parts into that space.

Layout needs to be to where inductors are not facing the same direction. Ideally, if the smaller inductor that is up on its end were to roll, then it would not roll back and forth across one of the larger inductors. It would roll into or away from it. Then the further it is away the more it can be turned a different direction. 4 inches or so away and there is little interaction even if they are turned the same way. So different directions are good and distance is good.

It is also good to run all the caps in the same direction even though they are non-polar and work either way. The input and output terminations and such can differ and in some cases it can have some effect on the sound. So run them all in the same direction. Using the print direction works fine.

Twist each piece together so as to make one continuous wire. Don't loop one across the other to make the solder make the connection. Solder is not for making connections. It is for holding connections. So twist each together well, then run a line of solder across it to keep that connection from becoming loose or from not making good contact.

Where there is going to be a wire attached then you can let those connection stick up so that you have something to twist the wire to. You will also seal those connections with heat shrink so you will want to be able to slide heat shrink over the connection.

If just twisting two components together then there is no need to leave a connection sticking up that might short something out. Make one line out of it as if they shared the same wire.

Also, don't use connectors, screws, connection plates, or anything like that in the signal path. We want to keep it as pure and as uninterrupted as possible. No sense in using great wire then inserting a piece of tin or various alloy's into the path to create an insertion loss of some kind.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/v2netpic.jpg)
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/v2netpic2.jpg)

More coming...
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: NeilT on 9 Jul 2010, 03:40 pm
Good stuff Danny.
Should the component leads be trimmed as short as possible?
or just use em as they come?

Neil
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2010, 04:06 pm
I usually need the length, but sometimes some of them get trimmed down.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2010, 04:10 pm
Okay, with the components laid out and connected, I then slide the pre-cut board under it.

Then I mark with a Sharpy all the spots for holes that I want to drill for zip ties.

When drilling the crossover boards I drill through both of them at the same time so that they are identical. So I drill the holes and clean up any rough edges.

You can then start attaching all the crossover parts. This one however is going to be exposed (seen) so the board is painted Black.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/v2netpic3.jpg)

Now it is ready for the next step...
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2010, 04:17 pm
Here is more on connecting the components.

Let the leads overlap each other and twist from both ends. I often use a couple of small pairs of needle noise pliers to made twisting easier.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/twist1.jpg)
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/twist2.jpg)

Twisting another crossover together like the first one and having it match the pre-drilled holes is not easy. So I zip tie each component to the board so that they are in the right position then twist the ends together.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/twist3.jpg)
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/twist4.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2010, 04:23 pm
Pretty soon you have one that looks like this. All joints have now been soldered too.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/v2netpic4.jpg)

I also use clear Silicone under the heavy inductors to further hold their weight.

Then I zip tie the first cross to its board and trim the excess zip tie leads.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/v2netpic5.jpg)

Next I go around each component and hit it with a little hot glue to make sure nothing moves or vibrates around.

Then I start the wiring...  I will get those pics up later today if I can.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Hugh on 9 Jul 2010, 04:31 pm
What an invaluable educational illustration.

You are doing a great deed here Danny.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: dvenardos on 9 Jul 2010, 04:55 pm
+1  :thumb:
What an invaluable educational illustration.

You are doing a great deed here Danny.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: HT cOz on 9 Jul 2010, 05:09 pm
+1  :thumb:

+2 Sticky, Sticky, Sticky  :green:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: gprro on 9 Jul 2010, 10:38 pm
What an invaluable educational illustration.

You are doing a great deed here Danny.

Thanks,

Absolutely, Thanks! Takes some of the stress out of doing a crossover for the first time. Ill use this when I do my x-mtm's and center to encore upgrade. A soldering lesson/instructions would be great too!
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: face on 9 Jul 2010, 11:46 pm
Here's another excellent tutorial. 

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: newportcycle on 10 Jul 2010, 01:21 am
Danny, thanks so much for that post. This has got to make things pretty much "Jerry = Idiot" proof.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Jul 2010, 01:54 am
Okay, lets start wiring.

Positive to the woofer twisted on but not soldered yet.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/firstone.jpg)

Another important aspect of the solder is to seal the exposed Copper wire.

When we get to the negative wire we often need to catch the shunt leg of a component returning to ground. There is no real reason to cut little pieces of wire to make those jumpers. We can go from the driver straight back to the source with one piece of wire and just catch that inductor on the way with a little splice in between.

So I cut out a little piece where it will be twisted to the inductor. Just chop into it with the right sized stripper and pull a little in each direction to open up the area in the middle. If you need to open it up a little bigger then you can make two cuts with the stripper and use a sharp knife to slice out the piece in between. Just try not to scratch the Copper.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/splice.jpg)

Don't forget to slide some heat shrink on before attaching the next end or you won't be able to get it on.

Now it is soldered on. Note the white heat shrink waiting for cooling so it can be slide down over it.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/linking.jpg)

The continuous wire keeps a nice clean signal path. I like that much better than cut and paste of little pieces. It is faster and easier too.

The negative for the woofer is one continuos piece also. It catches that same point before heading on the source.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/neg.jpg)

Now I can heat up all the heat shrink to seal everything up.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/complete.jpg)

That looks nice and clean now.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/complete2.jpg)

And this network, as easy as it was to assemble, has more parts, and takes slightly longer to build than most of the other kits that I offer. Only the Super-V, and three way kits like the O-3, OB-5, OB-7, and OB-7 Plus are more complex.

So if you are looking at any of my A/V series kits, N1's, N1X,  N2X, N3, N3S, or the V-1, then all of them are even easier than this one.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: NeilT on 10 Jul 2010, 01:47 pm
Hey Danny,
Very very good and thanks for taking the time to do this.

What is the best way to do a foil inductor connection?

Neil
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Zerogravity on 10 Jul 2010, 02:19 pm
Yes, that was a big help and makes it much better to us newbies and instills more confidance with a first build. Also makes us truer to DIY as well as saving money.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Will2 on 10 Jul 2010, 02:50 pm
This is a great idea Danny - thanks. You might consider creating a sticky with your posts in it and put a link to the stocky on your web site.  I would have done a much better job with my crossovers if I'd had the benefit of this.

Cheers
Will
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Jul 2010, 07:30 pm
Okay, I just made this topic a sticky.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Guy 13 on 11 Jul 2010, 09:48 am
Okay, I just made this topic a sticky.  :thumb:
H Danny.
My crossovers looks nice and I am glad to see that they are now ready to be shipped.
As you know already, I am now in Montreal, I took the first flight from Vietnam to Montreal Canada to see my sick 87 years old mother, but I arrived too late, she had pass away already, therefore now I have to organize the funural with my family.
I should be back in Vietnam middle of August to complete the assembly of my V2.
Thanks.
Guy 13.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Jul 2010, 01:23 pm
I am really sorry to hear that about your mother. My condolence's to you and your family.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Fatawan on 11 Jul 2010, 01:36 pm
  And this network, as easy as it was to assemble, has more parts, and takes slightly longer to build than most of the other kits that I offer. Only the Super-V, and three way kits like the O-3, OB-5, OB-7, and OB-7 Plus are more complex.

So if you are looking at any of my A/V series kits, N1's, N1X,  N2X, N3, N3S, or the V-1, then all of them are even easier than this one.

You forgot the hopelessly complex Anarchy kit crossover!
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Jul 2010, 02:23 pm
Quote
You forgot the hopelessly complex Anarchy kit crossover!

Oh, it is still not that bad. It only has four more total components than this one does. It is still just a connect the dots game.  :D  Besides when you split it up into two separate boards (one for the woofer and one for the tweeter) then each one is easier than this one. The bummer was that it required a network like that. There was just really no way around it.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: NeilT on 12 Jul 2010, 06:41 pm
Hi Danny,
Could you post a pic of a foil inductor connection?
Thanks,
Neil
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: aharami on 12 Jul 2010, 07:30 pm
Danny, where do you recommend installing the network inside the N3 cabinet?  All the way at the bottom, right above the brace H?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: ebag4 on 12 Jul 2010, 07:33 pm
Danny, where do you recommend installing the network inside the N3 cabinet?  All the way at the bottom, right above the brace H?
I'm not Danny but I installed it on the brace behind the Neo3PDR. That way you only have to run one pair of wires up from the binding posts.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Jul 2010, 07:39 pm
Quote
Could you post a pic of a foil inductor connection?

I'll do it.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: aharami on 12 Jul 2010, 08:13 pm
I'm not Danny but I installed it on the brace behind the Neo3PDR. That way you only have to run one pair of wires up from the binding posts.

Best,
Ed

i see, thanks!  so are they mounted vertically against the rear panel, or horizontally, on top of brace B?  Isnt brace B the ones with two semicircle cuts on each end?  So are the networks covering some of that cutout space, or are the networks small enough to fit in the 4.5" x 6.5" space between the semicircle cuts?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: ebag4 on 12 Jul 2010, 08:20 pm
i see, thanks!  so are they mounted vertically against the rear panel, or horizontally, on top of brace B?  Isnt brace B the ones with two semicircle cuts on each end?  So are the networks covering some of that cutout space, or are the networks small enough to fit in the 4.5" x 6.5" space between the semicircle cuts?
Mine fit between the cutouts, but it is a bit tight.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Jul 2010, 08:54 pm
Okay, I pulled an old inductor that had an inner lead torn off of it to use as an example.

First cut the lead down so that it is not very long and fold a V or U shape into it so that it will easily hold solder and so that it will allow a little folding that can be done while soldering the wire to it.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/Fready.jpg)

Then put the soldering gun into it and heat it up will feeding solder into it.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/Ftinned.jpg)

You'll also have to tin the wire.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/Ftinned2.jpg)

Then put the soldering gun onto the inductor and heat that solder up until it starts to flow then insert the wire so that it is making good contact with the foil.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/Fsoldered.jpg)

If you are real good then you can squeeze it with needle noise pliers while it is still hot and fold the foil over the wire to make a nice crimped connection too.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/Frealgood.jpg)

Then just slide your heat shrink down over it to seal it.

See, that was easy too.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: mms3 on 12 Jul 2010, 08:55 pm
i see, thanks!  so are they mounted vertically against the rear panel, or horizontally, on top of brace B?  Isnt brace B the ones with two semicircle cuts on each end?  So are the networks covering some of that cutout space, or are the networks small enough to fit in the 4.5" x 6.5" space between the semicircle cuts?

Keep in mind that if you're using NoRez, that will take up a couple inches as well.  So, it's more like 4.5" x 4.5".
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: NeilT on 13 Jul 2010, 02:34 pm
Thank you Danny for the foil inductor pictures and instuctions.
Good luck and hang in there.
Neil
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: NeilT on 27 Jul 2010, 02:13 am
Hi Danny,
See anything wrong with this layout?
Thanks
Neil




(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=33206)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Jul 2010, 07:47 pm
Neil,

The main thing to keep in mind is inductor orientation. In this case, you're fine.

The second thing that I shoot for is lining everything up so that little to no wire is needed to connect everything. This is not critical but it helps make assembly easier.

Also keep in mind that you need to chop those inductor leads down short like in the pictures that I posted above.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: NeilT on 27 Jul 2010, 08:06 pm
Thank you Danny
Neil
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: dvenardos on 28 Jul 2010, 04:39 am
The AV-1RS was my first build and I was really tight on wire.

The second thing that I shoot for is lining everything up so that little to no wire is needed to connect everything. This is not critical but it helps make assembly easier.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: eclein on 28 Jul 2010, 10:44 pm
Danny-Great thread!!!!!! Thank you for the time you put in!! :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Savage on 12 Sep 2010, 09:56 am
If it wasn't for this thread, I don't think I would have ever bought my LS6 cabinets at the auction. Would it be possible to see a Crossover layout for these so I have an idea what I got myself into?

I was thinking that along with the kits, it would be nice if you supplied a suggested crossover layout. That way it not only would be easier and less intimidating for crossover virgins like me, but also to troubleshoot either initial problems or repairs down the pike. If most people followed the layout, it would make servicing these custom speakers easier if most of us followed convention. If they were posted online, I think more of us may be willing to give it a shot. Sometimes I look at the piles of components and think that's beyond my experience level, but as you so thoroughly described here, it's not that hard. Just a thought.

Do you need to use a low-temperature hot glue for gluing components? The heat doesn't harm them? I'm just afraid of soldering and hot gluing $75 capacitors. Also, I'll probably pick up a new soldering iron. Any suggestions for a good quality unit?

I am glad that the LS6 crossovers are hidden; my soldering isn't that good.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: mojave on 13 Sep 2010, 09:36 pm
Savage, Danny bought some LS-6 (http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=385&aid=31403&lid=8586327#topoflot) crossovers and bass management boards at the av123 auction. He will probably be including these in the build kits so you won't have to solder anything.

(http://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImages/385/31403/Detail/130.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Sep 2010, 10:24 pm
If you want to build out the crossovers yourself don't worry. I'll walk you through it, show you pictures, and everything.

Hot glue doesn't hurt the caps either.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: bfr1992t on 13 Sep 2010, 10:30 pm
I am glad that the LS6 crossovers are hidden; my soldering isn't that good.

Practice on scrap materials!

I'd also suggest you pick up a eutectic solder. It melts and flows much more smoothly and IMO would be much better for a beginner so long as you're working with new clean components.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Guy 13 on 5 Nov 2010, 12:26 pm
If you want to build out the crossovers yourself don't worry. I'll walk you through it, show you pictures, and everything.

Hot glue doesn't hurt the caps either.
Hi Danny and all AC members.
I think it would encourage and motivate DIYfers if you would supply crossover kits with printed on the board (Wood, plastic or PCB) the shape of the components and even have some holes for the TieWraps and wires...
How about supplying a small tube of glue for customers overseas, not easy for us to find good products overhere.
As for me, I would buy the crossover kits unassembled and do the welding myself.
Guy 13
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: face on 5 Nov 2010, 05:59 pm
That would take the seller more time to prepare the kits and cost us more in the long run, not worth it IMO. 

Hot glue isn't available overseas?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Guy 13 on 6 Nov 2010, 12:11 am
That would take the seller more time to prepare the kits and cost us more in the long run, not worth it IMO. 

Hot glue isn't available overseas?
Hi.
The first time or initialy it would take more time for the seller, but later on, it will save time for the buyer. Yes, it would cost a little more, because the initial design cost, but that extra would be spread over many kits.
Offering two options is always good, for example. cabinets flat pack and assembled units. I don't think I am the only one looking for some help in building kits.
Here in Vietnam, they have hot glue, but you have to run around the city to find it, there are no Home Depot here where you can find everything you need under one roof. On my next trip to METRO (German investment) a large super market where you can find, rice, motorbike, cooking oil, tools, soap, TV and more... I will look to see if they have any hot glue, who knows, I might be lucky.
Guy 13
AKA : The lucky man.
It's not because you don't need or want something, that everybody else don't needed it. Needs and requirements vary from person to person, thank God we are not all the same on this planet.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: kramertc on 17 Nov 2010, 02:56 pm
What is the recommended way to secure the crossover board inside the speaker cabinet?  In my case, this is the crossover for the N2X in a PE cabinet (the rectangular one).
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Nov 2010, 03:26 pm
I use screws. That way if you need to remove it then you can do so easily.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Nov 2010, 03:28 pm
I use screws. That way if you need to remove it then you can do so easily.

I used heavy duty 3M velcro (locking).  It works great. 

Is this ok Danny?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: kramertc on 17 Nov 2010, 03:56 pm
I used heavy duty 3M velcro (locking).  It works great. 

Is this ok Danny?

What a good idea.  The brace of the PE cabinet splits the internal enclosure in half which forced me to have a small crossover board so I don't have a lot of finger room to do screws.

Danny?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: corndog71 on 17 Nov 2010, 04:27 pm
You can always go external too.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: kramertc on 17 Nov 2010, 04:45 pm
You can always go external too.

Too complicated!  I'd have to hide the crossover somewhere since the N2X pair will be on stands or, gasp, build an enclosure for it.  Thanks for the suggestion, though... :green:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: django11 on 18 Nov 2010, 10:34 pm
A soldering lesson/instructions would be great too!
The first two (http://tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/) tutorial movies here are great starters for anyone with no knowledge of soldering.  They got me started...
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: hesster on 21 Jan 2011, 01:30 am

Here is another idea.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=41679)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 3 Oct 2011, 07:40 pm
I have studied this post so many times putting it together like a puzzle in my head, it's almost embarassing.  However, I am having so much fun!! 

There are small things attached to each cap in the pictures in the first post.  Not sure what they are.  I'm guessing a bypass?  Not sure where I picked that up.  I don't see them anywhere else in this post. 

Anyone know a good argument to convince my wife I need to order a V2 kit? :icon_twisted:

ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: WC on 3 Oct 2011, 07:56 pm
Well how will she feel about two speakers sticking out into the room by 3 feet.  :wink:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 3 Oct 2011, 08:03 pm
I already have her used to that.  My current speakers are out that far, and I could move more.  I have been moving them a few inches every now and then to see if I am hearing an improved sound.  I have moved about 18 inches out in the last year.  If she notices, she doesn't say anything.  She is a wonderful singer and piano player, so she is pretty understanding about the placement.  Just not the payment. Ooh, bad joke.

Ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: kp93300 on 4 Oct 2011, 12:51 am

Anyone know a good argument to convince my wife I need to order a V2 kit? :icon_twisted:

ben
Hi Ben,
i completed the V2 about a month ago.
The speaker is very good with the vocals and piano . It is very realistic and the low note from piano is excellent.
Maybe bring your wife for an audition and somebody in this forum may be able to arrange that.Unfortunately, I am from malaysia !

regards

kp93300
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: allfortheloveofmusic on 9 Nov 2011, 04:55 am
Boy it sure would have been nice if some pictures like these were taken of the crossover boards for the Super V. I can see how these photos showed a more step by step approach, as well as mentioned little things like twisting the wires with two pairs of needle know pliers. Here these pictures clearly show where and how all the leads end up and the sequence of installing parts with the silicon and tie down.. Yes this looks easy, but from what I have seen for photos for the wiring of the crossover for the Super V has completely taken the wind out of my sail on that topic, nothing worth a darn. A simple step by step deal would be amazingly helpful to someone that has never done this before.
As far as putting the rest together I'll probably need to seek out more help as well. DIY, that really mean do it yourself, everything. The orientation of the schematic likely perfectly aligns with a completed board, thus completely unraveling all the mysteries that lie ahead of a novice.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Nov 2011, 03:58 pm
This post was made in a Super-V build thread back in September:

See pics.  :green:

Yes, I mirrored the crossovers.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/svcrossoverpic3.jpg)

And a close up of one after adding the wiring.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/svcrossoverpic1.jpg)

And yes, that big Brown square thing is a Jupiter cap.

(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/svcrossoverpic2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Nov 2011, 04:21 pm
While the Super-V is clearly not a beginner level kit, it has been successfully built by everyone that has tackled it. Not only do you have my full support but the help of many other builders here in the GR Research circle.

There are people available like Sean (the Skiing Ninja) that offer crossover assembly services. I even built out the crossovers for one customer too.

There are also several people that can build out cabinets for these speakers as well. It can be as easy as mounting the crossover and plugging it all in.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: gijogeo on 22 Nov 2011, 02:43 am
This thread is a sticky and I missed it before putting together my XO for my N2X. :duh:
Really could have done a better job had I seen this earlier. Anyways thanks for the detailed explanation Danny. Sure is a lifesaver for total noobs like me.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: synergy1 on 22 Nov 2011, 06:44 pm
If you are putting together a crossover for boxes built by Jon Parkhurst for the Super V and have upgraded to the Jupiter Cap make sure your board material is no thicker than 1/4" otherwise the Jupiter cap will hit and the beautiful cover Jon built will now sit flat but sit up on the cap. No
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: brandon w on 20 Jan 2012, 05:15 pm
Thank you for this thread danny.  it has definitely helped me to get my crossovers done.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Jan 2012, 05:56 pm
Thank you for this thread danny.  it has definitely helped me to get my crossovers done.

No problem, and welcome to AC.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: djkest on 21 Feb 2012, 05:34 am
I was trying to utilize some of the Richie method when assembling this crossover. This was a "prototype", I have since shrunk the board a little and V2 is underway.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CEzSJHRlDWE/T0CHj7o97tI/AAAAAAAAB-U/zpypaDtIaAQ/s640/2012-02-18%252007.12.22.jpg)
Missing the woofer output terminals, but you get the idea. Input on the top, outputs on the bottom.  All point to point except I will need a jumper for the negatives.

I noticed that I overtightened a couple zip ties, and put light indentations on one of the Solen Fast Caps... is that going to be a problem? Sure hope not. :/  The tweeter capacitor is getting replaced with a Clarity Cap PX...


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UN4sfOv4hUk/T0CHkpKgu5I/AAAAAAAAB-c/ReK22BLRWE8/s640/2012-02-18%252007.12.41.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: S Clark on 21 Feb 2012, 05:40 am
If this is a V2 crossover, I'm curious why you replaced the stock cap with a Solen? I'd think that would be a step backwards.  :scratch:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: djkest on 21 Feb 2012, 05:44 am
If this is a V2 crossover, I'm curious why you replaced the stock cap with a Solen? I'd think that would be a step backwards.  :scratch:

It's not a GR product. I can remove it if it's inappropriate.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: S Clark on 21 Feb 2012, 05:48 am
Ahh, I see.  There is a big gap between the Clarity and Dayton(oops, I meant Solen).  Even if it's just in a bypass section of the network, you may still think about moving up a step at a later time.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: djkest on 21 Feb 2012, 03:42 pm
Ahh, I see.  There is a big gap between the Clarity and Dayton.  Even if it's just in a bypass section of the network, you may still think about moving up a step at a later time.
There is no Dayton anything in this crossover. Those are 400V Solen Fastcaps. Plus the Clarity Cap will be inline with the tweeter as opposed to going to ground as in the woofer circuit. But I digress.

Still wondering about: "I noticed that I overtightened a couple zip ties, and put light indentations on one of the Solen Fast Caps... is that going to be a problem? Sure hope not. :/  " I guess I'll bust out the multimeter when I get home and check the values.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2012, 04:11 pm
I have no problem with you posting pics of your crossover here. This is an informative thread and things like this adds further information.

One thing that will degrade the sound is the insertion of the little terminals to accept slip on connectors. There is no reason to break the pathway and insert a piece of Tin or Aluminum. Just getting those out of the path will be a notable improvement.

Squeezing the cap will effect the value. Even holding it in your hand can do that as well. The heat and pressure from your hand can sway the value one way or another. I can watch that on my measuring system pretty easily. Don't fret too much though. It will likely have only moved its value 1/2 of a % or less. I'd be surprised if it shifted 1%. It is already +/-5% tolerance so there is no telling where it really is to begin with.

Another thing to keep in mind is the quality of the iron core slug and its effect. It looks pretty small so that would be a concern to me. I wouldn't use any iron core inductor on anything covering any mid-range areas. 200Hz or less is fine though. Then again the rest of the parts are not exactly top notch either. So it just depends on the speaker and what it will be used for. These my be used in a public address speaker for all I know and in that case the quality of the parts are fine.

If you are willing to spend Clarity Cap money on the tweeter circuit then you might also consider some Sonicaps. It is a better quality cap and I send them out in matched pairs at no additional cost.

Your board layout looks fine, BTW.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: djkest on 21 Feb 2012, 05:07 pm
I have no problem with you posting pics of your crossover here. This is an informative thread and things like this adds further information.

One thing that will degrade the sound is the insertion of the little terminals to accept slip on connectors. There is no reason to break the pathway and insert a piece of Tin or Aluminum. Just getting those out of the path will be a notable improvement.

Squeezing the cap will effect the value. Even holding it in your hand can do that as well. The heat and pressure from your hand can sway the value one way or another. I can watch that on my measuring system pretty easily. Don't fret too much though. It will likely have only moved its value 1/2 of a % or less. I'd be surprised if it shifted 1%. It is already +/-5% tolerance so there is no telling where it really is to begin with.

Another thing to keep in mind is the quality of the iron core slug and its effect. It looks pretty small so that would be a concern to me. I wouldn't use any iron core inductor on anything covering any mid-range areas. 200Hz or less is fine though. Then again the rest of the parts are not exactly top notch either. So it just depends on the speaker and what it will be used for. These my be used in a public address speaker for all I know and in that case the quality of the parts are fine.

If you are willing to spend Clarity Cap money on the tweeter circuit then you might also consider some Sonicaps. It is a better quality cap and I send them out in matched pairs at no additional cost.

Your board layout looks fine, BTW.
Thanks for your reply and taking a look. Not a PA speaker. :) I talked to them about upgrading the steel laminate core Inductor to an air-core, and they said to match the DCR would require something like a 12 gauge air-core. Then again, the difference between 0.3 ohms and 0.6 ohms is probably less than I think. It's in-line with a $60 woofer.

The inductors are decent, they are hand-wound with "five nines" copper, so probably better than the 96% copper Jantzen air cores that are so popular. I upgraded to lynk resistors as well over sandcast.

The little metal clips I am actually going to use as solder points- going to solder the leads to one point and the stranded wire to the other. I am not going to use quick disconnects on the board, but I do use to connect to driver tabs, since I'm wary of soldering to my drivers.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2012, 05:25 pm
The output differences from 16 gauge to 14 gauge measures about 1/10th of a db in output. Going from 14 gauge to 12 gauge also changes output by about 1/10th of a db.

Sometimes the difference in the resistance can be used to reduce bass output.

Differences are subtle between gauges sometimes. Differences in smearing caused by an iron core slug is not so subtle.

The rest of the inductors are fine.

I wouldn't even use those terminals as a soldering point. The solder is not a great conductor either. Solder is mostly Tin and Led. It should really be welding the connection not making the connection. So don't think of it as the conductor but a binder that keeps it from coming apart.

I wouldn't add connectors to the drivers either. No worries. Just place the wire flat on the terminal and solder it on. The fact that you have a lot of stripped wire touching the terminal is the connection. The solder is just holding it there.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: srb on 21 Feb 2012, 05:27 pm
I am not going to use quick disconnects on the board, but I do use to connect to driver tabs, since I'm wary of soldering to my drivers.

If you use a good heatsink like this one with riveted soft copper jaws to prevent heat from traveling down the voice coil lead, you can confidently solder speaker terminals.
 
Steve
 
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58325)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2012, 05:29 pm

If you use a good heatsink like this one with riveted soft copper jaws to prevent heat from traveling down the voice coil lead, you can confidently solder speaker terminals.
 
Steve
 
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58325)

Nice tip Steve.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 21 Feb 2012, 06:23 pm
I've done some research on soldering.  But now you have me worried about soldering OFC to drivers.  Do I need a heatsink?  I watched some basic tutorials on soldering, but either missed or didn't even see anything mentioning damaging voice coils with excessive heat.

I am building av-1 mini monitors.

Ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2012, 06:31 pm
I've done some research on soldering.  But now you have me worried about soldering OFC to drivers.  Do I need a heatsink?  I watched some basic tutorials on soldering, but either missed or didn't even see anything mentioning damaging voice coils with excessive heat.

I am building av-1 mini monitors.

Ben

If you are quick on and off the drivers terminals then there is no problem. I use a really hot gun and can get it taken care of in about two to three seconds. Just don't use a low powered gun on it holding it on there for a long time trying to melt the solder. That is when you are putting a lot of heat into the terminals.

The tweeter is the most sensitive to heat time. It won't hurt the voice coil as fast as it will melt the plastic tabs that hold the terminals. They will melt off before you overheat any voice coils.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: srb on 21 Feb 2012, 06:35 pm
I've done some research on soldering.  But now you have me worried about soldering OFC to drivers.  Do I need a heatsink?  I watched some basic tutorials on soldering, but either missed or didn't even see anything mentioning damaging voice coils with excessive heat.

Too many moons ago, my very first job was installing car stereos, and I soldered wires to the speakers without a heatsink.  But the use of a heatsink is just always a good simple safety measure.
 
Too much heat can ruin anything.  And if the voice coil tinsel leads are soldered to a terminal block, obviously too much heat applied to the same terminal block to solder the crossover wires could inadvertantly desolder them as well.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 21 Feb 2012, 06:59 pm
Okay, I'm going full monte while displaying mostly ignorance. 
I was going to get a cheap iron from menards.  Rated at 30 watts, I think. 

I don't know how often I will use this tool.  I was informed to look for between 15 and 30 watts.  I know $5 is cheap.  So going for more heat sounds like the right thing to do.  They have guns rated up to 100 watts.  Should I use that instead?  How hot should I go?

Ben 
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: srb on 21 Feb 2012, 07:18 pm
30 watts should be fine.  I have a 40W iron that with proper technique I can solder RCA plugs and even speaker binding posts.  Make a good mechanical connection of the wire to the terminal, apply some solder to the tip so that you get good heat contact applied to the mechanical junction and feed the solder and let it flow into the heated junction, not into the soldering iron tip.
 
It helps to make a few practice joints, whether it's wire to terminal or even just wire to wire.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2012, 07:23 pm
My favorite: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00927320000P?blockNo=1&blockType=G1&prdNo=1&i_cntr=1329852043137
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 21 Feb 2012, 08:28 pm
Thank you gentlemen.  Much appreciated.

Ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: face on 22 Feb 2012, 12:35 am
An adjustable temperature iron is the way to go.  http://www.amazon.com/Weller-WES51-Analog-Soldering-Station/dp/B000BRC2XU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1329870787&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Weller-WES51-Analog-Soldering-Station/dp/B000BRC2XU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1329870787&sr=1-1) 

Anything from small wire leads to binding posts aren't a problem. 
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Æ on 22 Feb 2012, 12:49 am
An adjustable temperature iron is the way to go.  http://www.amazon.com/Weller-WES51-Analog-Soldering-Station/dp/B000BRC2XU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1329870787&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Weller-WES51-Analog-Soldering-Station/dp/B000BRC2XU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1329870787&sr=1-1) 

Anything from small wire leads to binding posts aren't a problem.

That is a good idea.
But I actually prefer a very hot iron, the hotter the better when it comes to soldering tiny stuff. It allows me to do it quickly. I use a very sharp tip, touching with the point only and using very skinny solder.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: djkest on 22 Feb 2012, 09:49 pm
So I went out last night and bought a capacitance measuring multimeter since mine bit the dust.

I checked my "indented" capacitors from my overzealous zip-tie tightening. Turns out they are all well within spec so I don't think that will be a problem. They are 5% caps and measuring about 1% high.

Quote
Don't fret too much though. It will likely have only moved its value 1/2 of a % or less. I'd be surprised if it shifted 1%. It is already +/-5% tolerance so there is no telling where it really is to begin with.
Danny was right.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 2 Apr 2012, 01:10 am
Thought this would be the right thread to ask this question regarding crossover assembly.

A while back in another thread (top-shelf mini monitors?), there was discussion regarding using binding posts as nothing more than "clamps" to connect bare speaker wire to the input wire leads of a completed crossover, making a wire-to-wire mechanical connection with nothing in between, this being to try and get as close to "a straight wire from amp to crossover" as possible. 

Similarly, the way Danny has described his use of solder as basically a "glue" to hold what is otherwise a bare twisted wire-to-wire connection between crossover components sounds to me like a similar tack to the same ends.

Now, my question is whether or not one could use the same mechanical clamping situation as the binding post description above when connecting individual crossover components to eliminate the soldering, make component changes (for tinkering) easier, and still not hinder the final sound quality?  I know that adding "ring clips" to the ends of the component leads would be a step in the wrong direction, but how about if one just did a little work with some jewelers' pliers and built/wound rings from the ends of the component lead wires directly.  Then, maybe use a brass screw and a pair of washers to sandwich the end "ring" on one component to the next, tightening down to clamp  the two mechanically in contact with each other?  Wire splices could be done similarly as Danny has outlined, just strip out a section of wire insulation as needed, twist a loop into the exposed wire, and tighten down into a screw connector just as before.

I know it would add a small bag of extra hardware, and some extra time/labor in hand working the components, but I can see a few benefits as outlined above (mainly making component swaps for those who like to tinker with caps and such a breeze).  I got the idea stuck in my head after looking at the sterling (high-end) crossover builds from Hawthorne Audio.  I'm not necessarily sold on adding the brass ring clips as they do as being a good idea considering the high quality of components being used, but maybe by keeping things even simpler. . .?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 10 Apr 2012, 03:29 am
One minor question to add.  In the pictures on the first page of this thread, the joints are soldered before the OFC wire is attached.  I haven't started wiring yet, but I have twisted all parts together.  Should i wait to solder until after the rest of the wiring is done and solder all at once?  Or can I solder everything on the crossover, then solder the OFC joints a second time after I actually attach the OFC? 

Ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Apr 2012, 01:17 pm
One minor question to add.  In the pictures on the first page of this thread, the joints are soldered before the OFC wire is attached.  I haven't started wiring yet, but I have twisted all parts together.  Should i wait to solder until after the rest of the wiring is done and solder all at once?  Or can I solder everything on the crossover, then solder the OFC joints a second time after I actually attach the OFC? 

Ben

Either way.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: wushuliu on 20 Apr 2012, 07:31 am
FYI - Madisound has Erse foil inductors on sale at really good prices. I have a feeling Erse may be on the way out? (just check their website stock - and it's been that a way for a little while now). I have done some inductor comparisons the past few days and do find foil to be the cleanest and most neutral. I also swear that there is much improved detail and transient attack when used on the woofer. Stellar dynamics. I am almost certain it's due to the foil inductor. Barring foil, Meniscus inductors are rated as '5-9s' 99.999% copper, the highest purity I have seen rated for any inductor so far - and they sound clean and warm and are very affordable alternative to the Solen/Erse Perfect Lays.

Avoid Jantzen, they add false detail and crud. In the shunt position they are passable.

Sonicaps remind me of Claritycap MR, at almost 1/5th the price! Character-less cap.

My .02
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: wushuliu on 20 Apr 2012, 07:37 am
Either way.

Btw, Danny do inductors 'burn-in?'
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2012, 03:21 pm
Btw, Danny do inductors 'burn-in?'

Yes, but the audible difference is very subtle. Most of the burn in with wires and components has to do with the dielectric material and in the case of the inductors there is little involved.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: daveforshee on 5 May 2012, 02:40 am


When we get to the negative wire we often need to catch the shunt leg of a component returning to ground. There is no real reason to cut little pieces of wire to make those jumpers. We can go from the driver straight back to the source with one piece of wire and just catch that inductor on the way with a little splice in between.


I assembled my first A/V-1 crossover using scenario A, because I assumed it is "bad" to attach the leads of the resistor and the inductor before connecting to the OFC wire (scenario B).  The diagram from Danny shows separate wires meeting at the post on the cup.  For cleanliness, can you just use one wire like I did in scenario A, or is it necessary to use 2 separate wires (one from the inductor and one from the resistor)?  Thanks for your help!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62300)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 7 May 2012, 01:24 am
The way I wire it is like scenario B, but it can be done either way.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: daveforshee on 7 May 2012, 04:18 am
Thanks for the clarification. :D
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: jcris on 26 Jul 2012, 03:42 pm
It seems that inductive coupling is not given enough attention in many crossover networks.
I've pasted a thread from  the Bottlehead forums that you may find useful http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3127.15.html (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3127.15.html) As you may know Paul Joppa is their designer and very knowledgeable. Also this  may help http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm) .
This is all in the interest of learning more about this great hobby.
regards,
John
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Ron on 2 Aug 2012, 03:04 pm
  A fellow Audio Circle member recently asked me to construct single board crossovers for a pair of N3 TL towers that he is building in lieu of separate low and high pass filter boards. The boards were cut from scrap pieces of 1/4" thick Pergo flooring that Ihad in my shop and are 4-1/2" wide x 9-3/4"long. The parts are secured to the board with hot glue and plastic wire ties. Also, each board is secured to the interior cabinet walls with six(6) No. 8 x 1" long Hex Head sheet metal screws and 1/4" thick vinyl bumpers between the board and the cabinet wall. The following picture shows how it looks:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65870)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Aug 2012, 07:34 pm
Ron did a great job of these for me.  I'd highly reccomend him  to anyone not wanting to build their own cross overs for  whatever reason.
Thanks Ron  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Ron on 25 Aug 2012, 12:08 pm
  Attached are pictures of the crossovers I just completed for a pair of GR Research A/V-1RS surround
speakers. The boards were constructed from scrap pieces of Pergo laminated flooring and were cut to 9" long x 2" wide x 1/4" thick. Parts are secured to the boards with hot melt glue and plastic wire ties.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66775)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66776)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66777)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Aug 2012, 04:17 pm
Nice job again Ron.

I have a question  (I'm going to post it in my build thread as well) .
How often are crossover compnents prone to failure ?   I'm  just curious because if I glue my front panels on,   I will have no access to my cross overs.   What does everyone do  with regards to   accessing the crossover in a tower speaker ?

-jay
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Ron on 26 Aug 2012, 08:58 pm
  The  components parts used in your crossover are high voltage, high quality and rarely, if ever, fail. If you locate the crossover on the back panel behind the lower woofer all you have to do is remove the woofer for access to it.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Aug 2012, 10:48 pm
  The  components parts used in your crossover are high voltage, high quality and rarely, if ever, fail. If you locate the crossover on the back panel behind the lower woofer all you have to do is remove the woofer for access to it.
Remember, these are front vented .... hence   the C/o would be  between  brace D and F on the rear wall  so   I don't think I could get to it through the woofer hole
I could maybe fit it above brace  D on the rear wall but Danny suggested I put it below D and above F
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 30 Aug 2012, 04:41 pm
Remember, these are front vented .... hence   the C/o would be  between  brace D and F on the rear wall  so   I don't think I could get to it through the woofer hole
I could maybe fit it above brace  D on the rear wall but Danny suggested I put it below D and above F

I always build it so that it can slide through the woofer hole and mount on the rear wall right behind the lower woofer.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Aug 2012, 11:04 pm
I always build it so that it can slide through the woofer hole and mount on the rear wall right behind the lower woofer.

The crossovers were just a little too big to fit there so  I was left  with  putting them    on the rear wall between D and F.  There  is no way  too ever get too them  via the bottom woofer hole  so  I  made an access panel on the rear wall.  It's just big enough to  hold the crossovers and   pout the  electra tubes    right below the c/o's.   Not   exactly as I 'd planned it but I wasn't going to bury   the c/o's with no way to get to them.  Pics coming in my build thread.

-jay
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: PDR on 29 Nov 2012, 10:58 pm
I have a question for Danny....or anyone that knows....about the X-over assembly
for the Super V.

I've seen this picture of the X-over:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71572)

Can I tighten the construction up?...If so whats the closet the pieces can
Be?.....I imagine the caps and resistors can be side by side but
what about the Coils (dont know what you call them). I know they
have to be orientated the way they are....but how close can they be
to each other?

Thanks
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Nov 2012, 11:04 pm
I have a question for Danny....or anyone that knows....about the X-over assembly
for the Super V.

I've seen this picture of the X-over:

Can I tighten the construction up?...If so whats the closet the pieces can
Be?.....I imagine the caps and resistors can be side by side but
what about the Coils (dont know what you call them). I know they
have to be orientated the way they are....but how close can they be
to each other?

Thanks

The reasons that I had it laid out that way was to keep the coils separated further, and of coarse I had the space. If it is tightened up one must be more careful in keeping orientations turned so that there will be no interference patterns.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: stevenkelby on 30 Nov 2012, 06:29 am
Here's a pic of mine if it helps (no side panels on the speakers btw):

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71595)

I covered the kit alumiloy wire in black shrink so it looks neater in the speakers

Danny, could it be built like that but with all parts touching each other, squashed together?

I have this old pic about spacing/laying out coils too, hope it helps Perry:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71596)

From here:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm

Steve.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Guy 13 on 30 Nov 2012, 06:46 am
That would take the seller more time to prepare the kits and cost us more in the long run, not worth it IMO. 

Hot glue isn't available overseas?

Hi face all Audio Circle members.
More time for the seller to prepare the kits
and more money in his pockets,
because he would be able to ask more money for the partially assembled kits.
Some people like to buy everything they need from one source, one order one payment, one shipping, etc..
For someone that have no soldering and mechanical skills
(Yes, there are a few of those)
if the kit cost more, it might be a saving for them,
because instead of overheating components,
re-wired incorrectly wired components in the first place, etc...
They would have a plug and play unit.
On a long term, you will save money and frustrations.
Please don't think every DIYer can do what you can do.
We are not all the same and that's good.
Yes, hot glue is (Now) available in Vietnam.
It was not the case 25 years ago.

Guy 13
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Trismos on 3 Dec 2012, 02:05 pm
"Cold Heat" soldering gun. Anyone try one of these? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6151688/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/cold-heat-soldering-iron-runs-hot-cold/#.ULyuxOTuWTQ

I have one something like Danny shows, one step down perhaps - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00954046000P

But I see the Cold Heat on t.v. now and again and I read the review above.

I just received my V-1 cross-over parts and will spend the winter building this thing. Expect some dumb questions!
(Like: why are there so many damn parts for a coax and why in the schematic do there appear to be 4 leads? There's the extra + and - leads in the middle of the schematic.)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Dec 2012, 02:11 pm
I tried one of those cold heat soldering guns once. It sucked. It was like soldering with a soldering gun with a broken tip.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: stevenkelby on 3 Dec 2012, 02:27 pm
Yep those cold heat ones suck . I use a good old Hako 936 and love it but the best I've ever used is a Metcal MX-5000.

why in the schematic do there appear to be 4 leads? There's the extra + and - leads in the middle of the schematic.)


The + leads all come from the same place, as do the -.

For example, in my pic a few posts up you can see the thick black wires coming up out of a hole in the board near the bottom of the pic. The + wire then goes to the left and gets soldered to the Erse cap, the Mills resistor and the big inductor, one solder joint for all those wires. You can see in the schematic that they all need to be connected together.

Hope that helps :)

Steve.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Trismos on 3 Dec 2012, 02:41 pm
Yep those cold heat ones suck . I use a good old Hako 936 and love it but the best I've ever used is a Metcal MX-5000.

The + leads all come from the same place, as do the -.

For example, in my pic a few posts up you can see the thick black wires coming up out of a hole in the board near the bottom of the pic. The + wire then goes to the left and gets soldered to the Erse cap, the Mills resistor and the big inductor, one solder joint for all those wires. You can see in the schematic that they all need to be connected together.

Hope that helps :)

Steve.

Thx Steve .... You appear to have an extra cap at the Jupiter cap?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: stevenkelby on 3 Dec 2012, 02:45 pm
No worries, yes it's a small sonicap platinum, also a small sonicap in parallel with the big sonicap on the right.

Not needed but I already had them here so thought I'd use them, shouldn't do any harm. I'll remove them after a few hundred hours of play just to see how they affected the sound and put them back if I prefer them in :)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Trismos on 4 Dec 2012, 01:33 am
This post was made in a Super-V build thread back in September:


(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/svcrossoverpic2.jpg)

From this pic that Danny posted and because I am somewhat electrically illiterate, I had a difficult time trying to picture what the schematic that comes with the cross-overs shows verses this picture.




In the schematic, the line of {+ > capacitor >  Resistor >  coil to -} is different than in the picture. I see {+ > resistor > coil > cap > -}. This doesn't matter?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: stevenkelby on 4 Dec 2012, 01:39 am
In the schematic, the line of {+ >  capacitor >  Lynk Resistor >  coil to -} is different than in the picture. I see {+ > resistor > coil > cap > -}. This doesn't matter?

I don't want to answer for Danny but do want to help if I can as I know it's tricky for a first timer!

I noticed that too and assembled it according to the schematic, Danny said that was fine so I can only assume it doesn't matter either way, or that Danny changed the schematic at some point and we have the latest version.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 4 Dec 2012, 05:06 am
Trismos and Steven:

I'm sure Danny would be glad to help answer these questions as needed, but I would humbly suggest removing the photo of the crossover schematic and the references to specific part values within it from the forum posts.  Someone else did this mistakenly once before a while back. . . Remember, folks pay Danny good money for this info (not to mention competitors wanting to check things out for their own purposes).  If it is posted freely on the Internet, it makes things tougher for Danny to put food on the table.

Danny, please feel free to edit/delete this post as needed to put the thread back on track.  I would have just reported the post, but I didn't see a button on the forum page to do it.

Good night, all!
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: stevenkelby on 4 Dec 2012, 05:20 am
Oh yes you're right, sorry I didn't think again, it was me that posted the schematic here a while back! I deleted it then and would suggest Trismos delete that schematic from his post too.

Danny did post that pic of the crossover himself and other people have posted pics of theirs so I assume it's ok, you can't make out all the component values or exactly how it's wired up.

Steve.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Trismos on 4 Dec 2012, 01:52 pm
Schematic and reference to values deleted.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Dec 2012, 03:59 pm
I don't mind the pics of the crossovers that show no values, but do not post schematics please.

There are two LCR networks in this crossover. One is actually an impedance compensation network at the front of the network. The other is a notch filter for the tweeters response. In both cases the inductor, cap, and resistor can be in any order and it will not matter. So LCR, LRC, RLC, RCL, CLR, or CRL.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: demarco on 11 Apr 2013, 08:35 pm
Hey Danny, or anyone who can help.

I've read this post a few times in regards to another crossover I'm building (my first crossover). I understand you guys shouldn't post the schematic (otherwise I could probably answer this question on my own), but I wanted to ask if that pink wire on the bottom right (http://www.gr-research.com/mis/complete.jpg) is a positive wire which is hooked up to the binding posts. If not, which wire is meant for the binding post (positive and negative). This will help me understand crossovers a bit more.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Apr 2013, 08:53 pm
Hey Danny, or anyone who can help.

I've read this post a few times in regards to another crossover I'm building (my first crossover). I understand you guys shouldn't post the schematic (otherwise I could probably answer this question on my own), but I wanted to ask if that pink wire on the bottom right (http://www.gr-research.com/mis/complete.jpg) is a positive wire which is hooked up to the binding posts. If not, which wire is meant for the binding post (positive and negative). This will help me understand crossovers a bit more.

Welcome to AC.

The Red and White pair on the bottom right are inputs. So they would go to the binding posts, or in the case of this speaker it would go to the tube connectors.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: demarco on 11 Apr 2013, 09:28 pm
Perfect! thanks for letting me know!
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: gab on 22 Jan 2015, 08:54 pm

I have this old pic about spacing/laying out coils too, hope it helps Perry:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71596)

From here:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm

Steve.

Danny - could you remark on this layout for me? I'm trying to reuse a nice box I have laying around to keep from building a new one (for my center channel external crossover). Trying to follow #7 from the troelsrgravesen link above. Thanks!

gab

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113408)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Jan 2015, 10:22 pm
Are the brown paper cylinders coils as well? 
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: gab on 22 Jan 2015, 10:26 pm
Are the brown paper cylinders coils as well?

yes - just wrapped around the coils during shipping from Sonicraft. Haven't removed them yet.

EDIT - I just measured the inductance values with my LCR meter and didn't see any mutual inductance coupling issues as laid out above. Same measurement as standalone inductor measurement. I also couldn't really get them to interact very much at all no matter which way they were placed. Maybe I am doing something wrong?

gab
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Jan 2015, 10:49 pm
Okay, the three wrapped in paper and the foil one on the bottom right is going to be just like illustration number 5.

Measuring the inductance is not going to tell you anything. The inductance values won't change.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: gab on 22 Jan 2015, 11:35 pm
Okay, the three wrapped in paper and the foil one on the bottom right is going to be just like illustration number 5.

Measuring the inductance is not going to tell you anything. The inductance values won't change.

Then I am confused by the trolsen do's and don'ts illustration. I see that this crossover from Skiing Ninja looks like a configuration "7" to me, not a "5"


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113415)

For example, the 2 coils mounted closely together show the one laying flat has the air gap pointing in an up/down arrangement and the one adjacent to it has the air gap pointing in an east/west arrangement as opposed to the air gap pointing directly towards the flat inductor. That to my eyes is a illustration "7" not a "5". BTW - I am presuming that Skiing Ninja has oriented the coils properly.

In my layout it may be hard to see but the 3 inductors laying flat have the air gap pointing in a up/down position and the four foil inductors (in the cardboard tubes and without) standing upright on the MDF board have the air gap pointing in either a east/west or north/south arrangement versus the air gap pointing directly towards its adjacent flat inductor. To my eyes, I have done the same thing as Skiing Ninja did and it appears to be a illustration number 7 not an illustration number 5.

What am I not getting?

Regarding my LCR meter measurements not being reflective of inductor coupling, do you know what measurement equipment Troels may have used in making the coupling measurements as shown here:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm

Network analyzer versus an LCR meter? Guess I need to start reading up on this stuff (like maybe here: http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5967-5377E.pdf)

gab


Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Jan 2015, 12:27 am
Quote
What am I not getting?

Sean's placement is just like number 7. Yours are too if you take away the two foil inductors at the bottom. But if you just look at the foil inductors only then they are just like number 5 in their orientation towards each other.

And the way to measure them is to pass a signal from one to the other. In other words read the coupling with acoustic output of a driver connected to a coil that is near another coil that is actually getting the signal.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: gab on 23 Jan 2015, 04:40 am
Sean's placement is just like number 7. Yours are too if you take away the two foil inductors at the bottom. But if you just look at the foil inductors only then they are just like number 5 in their orientation towards each other.

And the way to measure them is to pass a signal from one to the other. In other words read the coupling with acoustic output of a driver connected to a coil that is near another coil that is actually getting the signal.

Thanks Danny. I get it now. I'm going to work out a new layout tomorrow and run it by you. I'm going to still try to re-use that box (which is looking less promising, but who knows). Regardless, I learned a lot today! :thumb:
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Jun 2016, 05:11 pm
I'm finally taking the plunge and building some networks  myself.
Just a quick question, is it better to split the negative leg say at the input connector before picking up components from both a high pass and low pass filter (so both  filtes basically have their own neg lead going back to the input), or can  all components going to ground  connect at one spot then the   neg lead split into two parts and sent to each  driver ?

jay
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: mlundy57 on 26 Jun 2016, 05:45 pm
Jay,

Six of one, half dozen of the other. I've done it both ways. For me it comes down to which is going to be easiest and/or cleanest to layout.  The tube connectors can handle up to three of the 16ga wires. If I have more than one wire going into the tube connector I twist the wires together before inserting into the tube connector. On the NX-Otica networks I just built, each of the three sections had their own positive and negative leads going to the tube connectors.

Also, when the polarity gets reversed at the driver(s) there are two ways to do the color coding: (1) code the wires coming off the network toward the drivers so that white wires connect to the negative poles of the drivers and red wires connect to the positive poles i.e. reverse the polarity with the color coding; (2) color code the wires so that they correspond to the tube connector (from the amp) so that the red wires coming off the board are connected to the positive tube connector and the white wires are connected to the negative tube connector then reverse polarity at the drivers as necessary.

I find the first method confusing when reading a wiring diagram that shows the polarity being reversed at the drivers. Plus if I or somebody else has to work on the network later and either forgot or didn't know the color coding had been reversed it could be a headache so I prefer to use method 2, Keep the color coding consistent with the amp input. Either way works, it's just which you find easiest to work with.

Mike
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Jun 2016, 07:26 pm
AThanks Mike,  that is what I thought but I wanted to be sure.
I agree, method one of color coding could be confusing, better to stay as the  schematic shows.

I did notice in  the pics you had split all  3 legs  at the connectors.... I'm building so P2P Encore networks and thought it might be easier to have the 3 components that go to ground all conected at the same point then split the  neg wire to each driver

I will post a pic soon

jay
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: mlundy57 on 26 Jun 2016, 09:02 pm
AThanks Mike,  that is what I thought but I wanted to be sure.
I agree, method one of color coding could be confusing, better to stay as the  schematic shows.

I did notice in  the pics you had split all  3 legs  at the connectors.... I'm building so P2P Encore networks and thought it might be easier to have the 3 components that go to ground all conected at the same point then split the  neg wire to each driver

I will post a pic soon

jay

When I built the N3 and all the Encores I only had one negative and one positive wire connected to the tube connectors then split off just before the first driver.

You could run the wire all the way from the crossover to the first driver then jumper up to the second driver (two wires twisted together soldered to the tabs of the first driver, one from the crossover and the other to the second driver).

Mike
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Jun 2016, 03:20 am
When I built the N3 and all the Encores I only had one negative and one positive wire connected to the tube connectors then split off just before the first driver.

You could run the wire all the way from the crossover to the first driver then jumper up to the second driver (two wires twisted together soldered to the tabs of the first driver, one from the crossover and the other to the second driver).

Mike

This is not for drivers in paralle (like the Otticas, N3's, Encore CS's  etc), I do that in cases  where it applies but not here

jay
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Jul 2016, 04:19 pm
finally  laid thiee out, just need to solder up and wire

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146319)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 4 Dec 2016, 02:05 pm
I have a question about crossover placement and grill magnets. I have two small neo magnets on each side that will be, at the absolute closest, about 2 inches from the very corner of the super v crossover.  I am using Danny's layout like the pics on page 3 of this thread. So there are coils somewhat near those magnets.

I have no idea if that can affect anything. 

Do any of you have an opinion?
Thanks.
Ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Captainhemo on 7 Dec 2016, 04:41 pm
I don't think they will be an issue Ben. IIRC , in one of the Ottica threads, Danny had mentioned it wasn't an issue with the  magnets on the drivers so I doublt the little  ND grill magnets  will be a concern

jay
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 8 Dec 2016, 09:33 pm
Thanks Jay.  I was hoping that was the case.  Digging the magnets out was going to be the end of me.

ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Dec 2016, 01:21 am
Those magnets are small enough and the inductors are far enough away for them to be okay.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: pinkfloyd4ever on 2 Jan 2017, 01:46 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155709)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155710)

Danny, I'm finally working on my Insignia upgrades I ordered back in April  :?

Does my inductor positioning look ok to you (or anyone else who knows)? Specifically the stock one relative to the 0.47 Erse.

Btw, have you ever considered having crossover PCBs made for your bigger selling DIY kits?
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Jan 2017, 03:59 am
Yeah, that looks good.

And all of our X-Series speakers have fully assembled crossovers.
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 12 Feb 2017, 02:18 pm
I am wiring super v crossovers. One of the inductors seems to have coating going to the end of the wire. I have two questions, do I need to remove that coating for conducting/soldering purposes? And can i sand that coating off?
Thanks. Ben
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: rockdrummer on 12 Feb 2017, 02:22 pm
I wasn't quite clear enough there. It is the yellowish rough coating. Not the red coating.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157742)
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Stuart on 12 Feb 2017, 04:51 pm
That yellowish coating is in fact the solid copper wire that make up the coil. The other leads are silver because the have been coated in solder. Go ahead and solder together as required!
Title: Re: Crossover assembly 101
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Feb 2017, 06:07 pm
You can always clean it up with a little steel wool or sand paper.