AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: ebag4 on 19 Oct 2016, 12:22 am

Title: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 19 Oct 2016, 12:22 am
I started a new speaker project (it truly is an illness  :lol:).  I picked up some veneer, a burl this time.  I have a question for some of you that have worked with burls.

It is my understanding that burls can be fragile, this is a plane tree burl, it does not seem to be too fragile, I have worked with makore that has been more delicate.  The reason I bring this up is that I am planning to use heat lock to apply the veneer, my question, are the burls more likely to crack with the heat? Should I consider using a veneer softener?

What about the bark inclusions, they are rather small, would I be better off leaving them or would I be better off filling them with putty or plugging them with a plug from another sheet?

Last question, I like the color as it is now, I have seen Sapele's get darker after finishing with poly, what type of finish would help maintain the current color?

Here are a few pics:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152249)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152250)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152248)


Any advice is appreciated.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: Captainhemo on 19 Oct 2016, 01:18 am
Nice  looking  veneer Ed , can I ask what you're building  ?

The Indian Applwwood we just  used was what I would call delicate,  we used  this stuf and it worked well  http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Super-Soft-2-Veneer-Softener-Conditioner.html
 We'd have never been able to bend it around the roundovers without it.

My buddy was saying he has picked up  raw veneer that  is not overly flat, he sprays the  veneer down with this  product and then presses it between a couple sheets of MDF overnight, flattens it right out.

If you are wanting to use poly,  I've found the  Minwax clear stuff ( I haven't tried the water based)  works well, doesn't seem to add colour .  You could always pick up a tin and try it on a small  piece.  Other options might be a high quality lacquer or possibly even  a shellac/spirits finish  like   what  Mike has shown us in the past (French Polish)
No matter what you choose,  doing  a small sample like  mentined above is  probably a good idea

Hope you'll post pics  when you get to that point

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 19 Oct 2016, 01:58 am
Nice  looking  veneer Ed , can I ask what you're building  ?
Hey Jay, you know what I'm building  :wink:!  I'm finally getting around to building the MTM flat pack I picked up from you.  I am building a pair of H frames as well, I am planning on having both servos face forward.  I glued up the MTM section this past weekend:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152102)

Having both sides in the flat packs made it easy to build a template for the bases.  I am working the MTM into an interface between the servo and MTM.

I have the kit from Danny, the NQ drivers look incredible.

Thanks for the info on the softener and finish, I don't have the endurance for a French polish, But I have considered a shellac, I have a long way to go before I get there.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ACHiPo on 19 Oct 2016, 02:17 am
I have not worked with veneer, but did recently use Heat Lock for curly Etimoe, and the veneer softener made things pretty straight forward.  I'm not sure what's in it (I suspect it's just polyethylene glycol), but it sure works.  Well worth the $15 or so.

Oh, and I agree that's stunning veneer!

I can also vouch for the Veneer Supplies website.  Joe is great, as is his products and prices.
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: Captainhemo on 19 Oct 2016, 03:24 am
Hey Jay, you know what I'm building  :wink:!  I'm finally getting around to building the MTM flat pack I picked up from you.  I am building a pair of H frames as well, I am planning on having both servos face forward.  I glued up the MTM section this past weekend:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152102)

Having both sides in the flat packs made it easy to build a template for the bases.  I am working the MTM into an interface between the servo and MTM.

I have the kit from Danny, the NQ drivers look incredible.

Thanks for the info on the softener and finish, I don't have the endurance for a French polish, But I have considered a shellac, I have a long way to go before I get there.

Best,
Ed

Ed
Glad to hear those cabinets went together  nicely for you, they're looking good  :) Those  10 degree rabbets on the  backside of the baffle  for the wings really do  aid in assembly don't they ?   With the new flat packs, it's even easier as the wings  are also positioned with dowels in the base.
That veneer should look  fantastic on those  cabinets, plus it will  suit the copper phase plug of the NQ's. Are you planning on painting/dyeing the  inside of the waveguides ? 

Hoping to build a pair out here  soon too

Keep the pics coming as you   move on  :beer:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: mlundy57 on 19 Oct 2016, 04:28 am
Ed,

What type of backing does the veneer have? If it is raw wood veneer the heat lock is not the best idea. That's what I used on my Wedgies and no matter how tight I got the seams, when the veneer cooled down the seams opened up. Not much, but enough to be able to tell where the seams are.

I don't know what would happen if you tried using a vacuum press (and cold press glue) with the open design of the cabinet.

One option might be to glue the veneer to a backing sheet using a cold press method like a vacuum bag then you could use the heat lock glue and an iron to apply the now backed veneer to the cabinets.

If your veneer is already on a backer than the heat lock will work fine.

Either way, definitely use veneer softener.

For the finish you could use a non-yellowing poly like General Finishes "High Performance" water based top coat. It's possible that, being water based, it could react with any tannins in the wood so to be safe it would be a good idea to put a couple coats of super blonde dewaxed shellac (no more than a 1 pound cut) on the veneer and let it dry completely (at least overnight) then scuff sand before applying the poly.

As Jay mentioned, you could just use the super blonde shellac by itself. That's what is on my N3's. It's a lot of work and if you are new to French Polishing I strongly recommend getting Robert O'Brien's DVD "French Polishing with Robert O'Brien". Also, build and veneer a test box or two so you can practice each step before doing it on the MTM's.

Lacquer is another option. These are small enough that you can use rattle can lacquer but make sure you don't spray it in the house. The one and only time my wife used lacquer on one of her leather projects the house stunk for over a week.

With the bark inclusions you have a few options. One thing I have done is to use CA glue to stabilize them. However, I haven't tried it before applying the veneer. Test it out on a piece of scrap first. You can also do nothing and if the inclusion falls out you can fill the void with a wood filler like Timberline so it blends in or take a Dremel and enhance the hole enough so you can inlay it. It all depends on how creative you want to get and how much time you want to spend on it.

What do you mean by working the MTM into an interface between the servo and MTM?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ACHiPo on 19 Oct 2016, 11:01 am
If it is raw wood veneer the heat lock is not the best idea. That's what I used on my Wedgies and no matter how tight I got the seams, when the veneer cooled down the seams opened up. Not much, but enough to be able to tell where the seams are.

Seams are definitely a challenge with Heat Lock, although if your veneer is big enough you may not have any?  If you do, Joe (from Veneer Supplies) has a trick that uses a wire coat hanger about 2" from the seam that creates extra veneer material to put the joint in compression and avoid gaps.  It worked well (a bit too well, actually) for me.  It's definitely something you want to practice before trying it on your main project (same thing for the finish)
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: mlundy57 on 19 Oct 2016, 01:17 pm
Seams are definitely a challenge with Heat Lock, although if your veneer is big enough you may not have any?  If you do, Joe (from Veneer Supplies) has a trick that uses a wire coat hanger about 2" from the seam that creates extra veneer material to put the joint in compression and avoid gaps.  It worked well (a bit too well, actually) for me.  It's definitely something you want to practice before trying it on your main project (same thing for the finish)

I used that trick and it did work to get the seams tight. The problem was they didn't stay tight once the veneer cooled.

I agree that if the veneer is wide enough to cover the entire surface in one piece the heat lock is fine. That's what I did on the LGK 1.0s and had no problems.
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: WGH on 19 Oct 2016, 05:38 pm

I don't know what would happen if you tried using a vacuum press (and cold press glue) with the open design of the cabinet.

One option might be to glue the veneer to a backing sheet using a cold press method like a vacuum bag then you could use the heat lock glue and an iron to apply the now backed veneer to the cabinets.

A vacuum press would probably crush an open cabinet, I have crushed an arched form and it looked like a giant stepped on it. I believe Jim Salk uses the Titebond Cold Press Veneer Glue along with a vacuum bag press on all his very well braced speakers. The veneers he uses does not have a backing. The veneers with backing can cause problems because you are relying on the glue bond between the backing and the veneer to last forever.

Wayne
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 19 Oct 2016, 11:23 pm
Thanks for the responses guys!

Ed
Glad to hear those cabinets went together  nicely for you, they're looking good  :) Those  10 degree rabbets on the  backside of the baffle  for the wings really do  aid in assembly don't they ?

Yes they do, they make dealing with the angle no issue.

With the new flat packs, it's even easier as the wings  are also positioned with dowels in the base.

No doubt, excellent work on the prototypes, I'm sure the complete package is outstanding.

That veneer should look  fantastic on those  cabinets, plus it will  suit the copper phase plug of the NQ's. Are you planning on painting/dyeing the  inside of the waveguides ?

 I have a plan but am going to wait and see how it works out.

What type of backing does the veneer have?

 It is raw wood

If it is raw wood veneer the heat lock is not the best idea. That's what I used on my Wedgies and no matter how tight I got the seams, when the veneer cooled down the seams opened up. Not much, but enough to be able to tell where the seams are.

 I have had some luck with seams and heat lock, however I didn't go about it in a conventional manner. When I inserted Sapele triangles into the Maple crossover covers of my V1s I actually cut the triangles out a bit larger than required, pressed the veneer down into the cutout in the Maple using the tip of the iron, then cleaned it up by sanding the excess, unconventional but worked well in that case. Fortunately for this project, the veneer is large enough to cover with one sheet per side, even for the H frames, so no seams other than the corners  

I don't know what would happen if you tried using a vacuum press (and cold press glue) with the open design of the cabinet.

 The gentleman I bought the veneer from also mentioned cold press, in this case I think I have decided to go with heat lock but use softener on the veneer just in case the heat causes an issue with splitting, I don't have access to a vacuum press anyway.

Either way, definitely use veneer softener.

Done, I'm ordering it tonight.

For the finish you could use a non-yellowing poly like General Finishes "High Performance" water based top coat. It's possible that, being water based, it could react with any tannins in the wood so to be safe it would be a good idea to put a couple coats of super blonde dewaxed shellac (no more than a 1 pound cut) on the veneer and let it dry completely (at least overnight) then scuff sand before applying the poly.

Thanks for that Mike, I had considered doing something like that but didn't know if I could poly on top of shellac.  I have used and like the General Finishes as well

Lacquer is another option. These are small enough that you can use rattle can lacquer but make sure you don't spray it in the house. The one and only time my wife used lacquer on one of her leather projects the house stunk for over a week.

Is this preferred over shellac/poly?  My main concern is keeping the veneer from darkening.

With the bark inclusions you have a few options. One thing I have done is to use CA glue to stabilize them. However, I haven't tried it before applying the veneer. Test it out on a piece of scrap first. You can also do nothing and if the inclusion falls out you can fill the void with a wood filler like Timberline so it blends in or take a Dremel and enhance the hole enough so you can inlay it. It all depends on how creative you want to get and how much time you want to spend on it.

Looking at the veneer, the occlusions are very small, I think I will simply try to fill if needed.  Would something like Peter used on his last project to smooth out the grain work for this issue? 

What do you mean by working the MTM into an interface between the servo and MTM?

I am going to put something between the top of the H frame and the base of the MTM, you could consider it a base for the MTM.

Seams are definitely a challenge with Heat Lock, although if your veneer is big enough you may not have any?  If you do, Joe (from Veneer Supplies) has a trick that uses a wire coat hanger about 2" from the seam that creates extra veneer material to put the joint in compression and avoid gaps.  It worked well (a bit too well, actually) for me.  It's definitely something you want to practice before trying it on your main project (same thing for the finish)

Thanks ACH, big veneer is my choice if available, fewer seams.  I will be ordering the softener tonight.

A vacuum press would probably crush an open cabinet, I have crushed an arched form and it looked like a giant stepped on it. I believe Jim Salk uses the Titebond Cold Press Veneer Glue along with a vacuum bag press on all his very well braced speakers. The veneers he uses does not have a backing. The veneers with backing can cause problems because you are relying on the glue bond between the backing and the veneer to last forever.

Thanks Wayne, I have only used backed veneer once, but prefer the raw because for me the corners come out nicer, looks like wood at the seam, probably because I don't know how to use backed veneer properly :-).

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: Plund on 21 Oct 2016, 03:09 am
Ed,
A picture is worth a thousand words...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152357)

Here is a piece of raw cherry I used with "Heatlock"...  You can see the LARGE split just to the left of the quarter.  My experience was similar to Mike's... this did not split until the wood was cooling after I ironed it onto the top of my N3 tower speaker.  This was the only veneer panel that split on my N3's, but boy did it split!  Side note...The N3's I made are largely based on the attractive N3's you made five or six years ago. 

If you are set on using that very nice burl, I would vote for contact cement.

Pete

Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: Captainhemo on 21 Oct 2016, 04:07 am
Wow  :o 
Is this typically more of an issue with raw veneers ?  Does using a PB veneer tend to keep things more stable   when using   an iron on method  , either  Heat Lock or  PVA  ?

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: mlundy57 on 21 Oct 2016, 06:29 am
Wow  :o 
Is this typically more of an issue with raw veneers ?  Does using a PB veneer tend to keep things more stable   when using   an iron on method  , either  Heat Lock or  PVA  ?

jay

In my experience when using an iron, yes. Not all pieces will pose a problem but all it takes is one to ruin a project. Using veneer softener and letting it soak in at least overnight goes a long way in keeping splits down.

The other issue is that when wood gets wet (from both the veneer softener and the steam) it swells. When it cools of it shrinks. These are not splits, but if you look at the large wing of the left Wedgie you will see two straight lines where the veneer pieces meet. This is the result of the veneer shrinking and opening the seams up just enough to form a straight line. Since straight lines don't exist in nature the eye gets drawn to the seams instead of the grain pattern.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152358)



The best backer I have found, especially when rolling the veneer over a radius, is the 22.2 mil bubble free backer from Oakwood veneer (don't know if anybody else offers something similar). An additional benefit is that since this backer is designed for use on less than perfect substrates, there is no issue with MDF seams telegraphing through even without any special treatment. To be clear, you still need to fill and sand and the better the prep, the better the end result, you just don't have to do anything to the seams like applying watered down glue, epoxy, bondo, etc. before applying the veneer.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 23 Oct 2016, 12:40 am
Ed,
A picture is worth a thousand words...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152357)

Here is a piece of raw cherry I used with "Heatlock"...  You can see the LARGE split just to the left of the quarter.  My experience was similar to Mike's... this did not split until the wood was cooling after I ironed it onto the top of my N3 tower speaker.  This was the only veneer panel that split on my N3's, but boy did it split!  Side note...The N3's I made are largely based on the attractive N3's you made five or six years ago. 

If you are set on using that very nice burl, I would vote for contact cement.

Pete
Hey Pete, I remember your build, they look great.  That is exactly the type of splitting I had with the maple on my V1s, the Sapele on the same build did not have any splitting.  I thought it might have been that I was using too much heat, but there was more Sapele than maple on that build, so it wasn't the heat.  I could use contact but that stays where it goes down, for some of this build I will need better control than that.  I don't have a reasonable way to use cold press, it appears it would have to be clamped in some way, so heat lock it is!  I am hoping the softener helps prevent the splitting.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: Plund on 23 Oct 2016, 02:37 pm
Ed, I will cross my fingers that your burl comes through without splitting... I used softener with the raw cherry that split.  I certainly don't have enough veneering experience to know which pieces of which species are prone to splitting.   I will anxiously await pictures of your build as it progresses!
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 23 Oct 2016, 10:15 pm
Ed, I will cross my fingers that your burl comes through without splitting... I used softener with the raw cherry that split.  I certainly don't have enough veneering experience to know which pieces of which species are prone to splitting.   I will anxiously await pictures of your build as it progresses!
Thanks for the clarification Pete, much appreciated, more food for thought.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: BK_856er on 24 Oct 2016, 01:30 am
My experience is limited to paper-backed makore - I'm no expert.  I used softener and heatlock with excellent results, including a 3/8" roundover, on the LGK.  All is well a few years later.  No seams in my case.  You would be wise to (1) measure your actual iron temp with a thermocouple to ensure it's suitable, and (2) do some test pieces to refine your technique.

BK

Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 25 Oct 2016, 12:47 am
A little progress this weekend...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152511)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ACHiPo on 28 Oct 2016, 04:03 pm
Ed,
Looking good.  Looking forward to seeing them veneered!
AC
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 29 Oct 2016, 01:19 am
On My experience is limited to paper-backed makore - I'm no expert.  I used softener and heatlock with excellent results, including a 3/8" roundover, on the LGK.  All is well a few years later.  No seams in my case.  You would be wise to (1) measure your actual iron temp with a thermocouple to ensure it's suitable, and (2) do some test pieces to refine your technique.

BK
Thanks BK, I asked Joe @ Joe Woodworker about iron temp, he indicated that he had not tested for an ideal temp and most irons don't indicate temp.  He did say that the cotton settings is where most land.

Ed,
Looking good.  Looking forward to seeing them veneered!
AC
Thanks AC, me too!

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: BK_856er on 29 Oct 2016, 02:08 am
I don't recall what I settled on for actual iron temp, but Joe's own FAQ states ~193F, so it might have been that.  I might not have bothered, but I had a thermocouple meter handy so it was convenient and quick - one less thing to worry about.

Good luck!

BK
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Oct 2016, 03:43 pm
Thanks BK, I asked Joe @ Joe Woodworker about iron temp, he indicated that he had not tested for an ideal temp and most irons don't indicate temp.  He did say that the cotton settings is where most land.
Thanks AC, me too!

Best,
Ed
Here's a little table I found online. While it's  related to titebond products, you should be able to cross ref  the type of adhesive you are using I've also been reading than when using raw vener , it can be a good idea to  apply a coat of shellac to te  the backside of the veneer and letting it completely dry before applying  the adhesive, this can help prevent the possibility of bleed through

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152688)

Looks like your cabinets are coming along nicely Ed :beer:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 2 Nov 2016, 10:00 pm
Here's a little table I found online. While it's  related to titebond products, you should be able to cross ref  the type of adhesive you are using I've also been reading than when using raw vener , it can be a good idea to  apply a coat of shellac to te  the backside of the veneer and letting it completely dry before applying  the adhesive, this can help prevent the possibility of bleed through

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152688)

Looks like your cabinets are coming along nicely Ed :beer:

jay
Thanks for that Jay.  With regard to the shellac, are you recommending putting it on the side getting the adhesive?  If so, I wonder how this would impact the adhesive effect of the glue to the veneer?  Of course I could only apply it to the locations with the occlusions, there aren't too many so I am not too concerned about them.

Making a little more progress.  Need to do a little more sanding and will be ready for painting and veneer, I hope to start with the veneer on the bottoms of the bass units tomorrow, let them sit and see if I have any issue with splitting.  Here are a couple of pics for your amusement:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152948)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152947)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: cody69 on 2 Nov 2016, 11:24 pm
I've not followed this closely enough... I like the way you've designed the upper and lower cabinets with keyed slots to fit together.
Quite ingenious  :thumb:

Am sure this setup is going to play amazing... can't wait for your feedback on how they play.
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: mlundy57 on 2 Nov 2016, 11:54 pm
The edge guides on top look nice but the will not allow the monitors to be toed in without also toeing in the subs. If I remember correctly, back when the Wedgies came out there was discussion about toeing in the monitors but that the H-Frames needed to remain pointed straight ahead.  :scratch:

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: DeeJayBump on 2 Nov 2016, 11:57 pm
... I like the way you've designed the upper and lower cabinets with keyed slots to fit together.
Quite ingenious  :thumb:

+1

That's (to borrow lovingly from Stuart Scott) cooler than the other side of the pillow. They look great.

Nice job, Ed.

RE: toe-in as mention by Mike above, maybe the top of the H-frames where the MTMs are slotted in could incorporate some rotate-ability--as long as structural integrity/solidity is maintained-- like a lazy Susan type effect to address any potential difference in toe-in between them?
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 3 Nov 2016, 12:12 am
Thanks guys, I like the transition better with the angle.

Mike, I have my H frames toed in currently even though my Wedgies are sitting on separate stands, so no concerns for me.  Of course the V series and the Serenity 7 don't have that adjustment either.

The angled platform the Ottica MTM is sitting on/in is not part of the bass unit, it will sit on top of the sub buffered by Herbies Tenderfeet.  I did it this way in case I wanted to use the subs with a full Ottica or another future speaker.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: mlundy57 on 3 Nov 2016, 12:34 am
Ed,

OK good to know. They can look a little funny with the monitors twisted.

What type of edge profile do you have on the edges, it looks like a big chamfer or a bevel cut on the table saw. Actually it looks more like a bevel cut.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ebag4 on 3 Nov 2016, 12:55 am
That's a bevel cut, I used a jig to hold the board up at an angle on the table saw to get the 10 degree.  I actually ended up doing it twice, i took the angle too close to the edge on the first set.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: glynnw on 3 Nov 2016, 05:26 am
My subs are aimed at listening seat - I find no problem with this.
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: ACHiPo on 3 Nov 2016, 03:21 pm
Thanks for that Jay.  With regard to the shellac, are you recommending putting it on the side getting the adhesive?  If so, I wonder how this would impact the adhesive effect of the glue to the veneer?  Of course I could only apply it to the locations with the occlusions, there aren't too many so I am not too concerned about them.
I'm not Jay, but I did talk to Joe about fillers when I was doing my build.  I was concerned about imperfections in the substrate telegraphing through the veneer, so I asked Joe about suitable fillers.  I was thinking Bondo, but Joe recommended against it saying that it's important that the moisture from the glue and veneer softener be able to diffuse into the substrate.  Given that I'd recommend against shellac on the substrate.  I ended up using sawdust and PVA glue to fill the divots.  Seemed to work well.

Nice looking cabinets!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Plund on 4 Nov 2016, 12:36 am
Ed,  I like your choice of adding that bevel...very nice lines! 
Title: Re: Veneer Question
Post by: Captainhemo on 4 Nov 2016, 03:21 pm
I'm not Jay, but I did talk to Joe about fillers when I was doing my build.  I was concerned about imperfections in the substrate telegraphing through the veneer, so I asked Joe about suitable fillers.  I was thinking Bondo, but Joe recommended against it saying that it's important that the moisture from the glue and veneer softener be able to diffuse into the substrate.  Given that I'd recommend against shellac on the substrate.  I ended up using sawdust and PVA glue to fill the divots.  Seemed to work well.

Nice looking cabinets!

Hey guys,  sorry I missed that  reply / question  of Ed's
I've seen posted in a couple different wood cworking forums where guys recommended  the shellac on the back side of raw wood venner (not the substaright) to prevent bleed through of adhesive or possible  later with regards to finish   interacting with   the adhesive.
Just thought it was worth mentioneing as i have seen it come up a few times in fdifferent discussions.

Once again Ed, the   cabinets are really looking good  :beer:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 5 Nov 2016, 12:53 am
Thanks Pete, AC, much appreciated.

Thanks for the clarification Jay,I appreciate it.

Haven't started veneering yet, I was sidetracked by one of those great ideas that turns out to be more trouble than it's worth  :lol:.  I wish I would have thought of it one step earlier, before I glued the the top piece of the MTM base, it would have made things easier. 

I was thinking about what I was going to do with the crossover, I decided I liked the clean look of the MTM and thought I would hide the crossover in the MTM base.  Because the base is already built I had to do this freehand, not perfect but will get the job done.  Here is a pic for your amusement:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153026)

I realize all my inductors are in the same plane, but I didn't have enough height to vertically mount them, so I chose distance.  They are all at least 7" from each other and this actually puts the inductors further apart than if I had added a crossover board in the back of the MTM.

The inner part of the base will be painted black and the components will be hot glued in.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Nov 2016, 03:26 am
That's an interesting way to do it.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: cody69 on 5 Nov 2016, 09:46 am
Quote
That's an interesting way to do it.

Most certainly is. That's what I love about this forum, sharing lots of different ideas and approaches.
I would have never thought about routing space for the network in the base.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: jimbones on 5 Nov 2016, 07:06 pm
I like it I think thats plenty of separation.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Nov 2016, 05:28 pm
That looks real good Ed, and that is plenty of separation.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Folsom on 8 Nov 2016, 06:53 pm
I really like how the MTM fits into the subwoofer. Inspired by Thrax?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 9 Nov 2016, 12:56 am
Thanks guys, much appreciated.  Jeremy, I am not familiar Thrax, it is really the result of trying to minimize the immediacy of the transition between the bass and MTM sections, the goal was for it to appear as a speaker as opposed to two separate speaker modules.  I tried a similar approach with my wedgie/wedge shaped bass unit.

Below is a pic of the pair, ready for veneer.  I added the neutric mounting block and now am ready to veneer all sections, I likely won't start until this weekend.

For your viewing pleasure  :lol::

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153098)


Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Folsom on 9 Nov 2016, 01:02 am
Well, you surely think alike.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-92ThE7qWgVE/Vz3W4OW509I/AAAAAAABapE/U3zmcKrEUHEvCC409A93UGS60BME6amkQCLcB/s640/13087160_1063061873732191_6896389459640498405_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 9 Nov 2016, 01:07 am
Well, you surely think alike.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-92ThE7qWgVE/Vz3W4OW509I/AAAAAAABapE/U3zmcKrEUHEvCC409A93UGS60BME6amkQCLcB/s640/13087160_1063061873732191_6896389459640498405_o.jpg)
Agreed, looks like the goal is to minimize that transition although the reduction of the angle on that unit is smaller by choice, the angle reduces towards the rear on mine due to the wedge shape of the MTM.  Interesting, thanks for posting, if I can get these to look anything nearly as refined as those I will be happy.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 27 Nov 2016, 08:48 pm
Not much progress over the last few weeks, life keeps getting in the way.  I did find a few hours to work on them this extended weekend.  Finally started veneering today.  I also built the grill frames and did a little painting since the last entry, see below:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154129)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154128)


Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Nov 2016, 09:24 pm
Nice veneer. That should really pop with a finish

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 28 Nov 2016, 01:49 am
Nice veneer. That should really pop with a finish

Mike
Thanks Mike, I hope so.  My finishing technique can certainly use improvement.  I thought I would go with a sanding sealer on this build, I have not used it in the past.  I also picked up a can of spray shellac to try and  see how I like it, Shellac will be a first for me as well.  I typically use a general finishes water based poly, I think I will go with an oil base this time, I seem to recall reading you can poly over the shellac. 

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Nov 2016, 02:40 am
Ed, I'm anxious to see that  veneer with a finish on it as well,   agree with Mike, think it will really   come to life.

So many different ways of finishing the  veneer...  sure I don['t havwe to say this but no matter what you choose, if it's something new,  do some test pieces to figure out if it's what you want

looking forward to seeing more as always

ja
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 28 Nov 2016, 03:54 am
Shellac is probably my favorite finish though I have never tried spraying it. Be sure you use a dewaxed shellac, especially if you plan on putting something different over it.

A lot of sanding sealers are shellac.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 4 Dec 2016, 01:34 am
Shellac is probably my favorite finish though I have never tried spraying it. Be sure you use a dewaxed shellac, especially if you plan on putting something different over it.

A lot of sanding sealers are shellac.

Mike
Thanks Mike, I checked, the spray shellac is wax free.  I have a test strip, the shellac and the oil based poly both darkened the veneer quite a bit, the sanding sealer topped with shllac and the sanding sealer topped with poly both kept the veneer much lighter.  I haven't made up my mind yet regarding finish.

One thing I have run into is that the veneer softener has changed the color of the veneer, it started fairly red, the red has come off when using the softener, changing the veneer's slightly red color to brown.   Joe has been great at trying to figure out what happened, going as far as testing his own plane tree Burl, but he couldn't recreate it.  I now believe that there must have been some type of coloring on the veneer, it colors the paper towel used to dab up the moisture.  I first used the softener as prescribed to flatten veneer, I thought that might have led to the color changing, but after the first sheets changed, I decided to try it without pre softening, instead just using the softener after applying the veneer, this has worked well however the color change still occurs.  The veneer looks great even though it s not as red as I had hoped, the softener has kept the veneer from splitting. 

What would be the preferred way to add a hint of red back to the veneer?  Could I add tint to the sanding sealer?  Recommendations are appreciated.

Here are a few pics for your amusement:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154366)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154368)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154367)

One large panel left to do.  A note for someone trying heat lock for the first time.  I wanted to keep the heat to a minimum on this Burl to minimize splitting.  To do that I try to let the heat lock set up the minimum amount (if the glue on either the veneer or the panel are the least bit tacky, they stick together like contact cement) if you are doing a large panel and you set the veneer on the panel with glue that is still tacky that is where the veneer stays, using wax paper between them, gradually pulling the paper out as you use the iron makes this much easier.

Edit: re-reading what I said above, it reads as if I applied veneer with the glue tacky, this is not correct and not the way it is meant to work.  However in an effort to to apply the veneer the moment it was dry, I would have a situation where an edge where I had applied tape to the face would have a bit of glue built up or a small area of glue on the veneer was applied thicker and barely still tacky; in these cases, where the veneer lands it can stick, this can ruin a piece of veneer and create a lot of work to remove.  This is why I mention the wax paper trick, I'm sure it saved me more than once.  Sorry for the rambling, Ed.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 4 Dec 2016, 04:37 am
Ed,

You can use red TransTint. It will work with any solvent. If you use water, make sure it is good and dry before putting anything else over it.

You determine how red it is by how much dye you add.

A good technique is to wipe the dye on, let it dry, then sand it back. Repeat one more time. This should give the red you want and make the figure pop. If you want the background a little darker, but not necessarily redder, you can mix a little black dye with the red.

Check out Charles Neil's instructions for Trace Coating to Enhance figure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjTSIiUiEOI

This is part 2 of a three part series. Be sure to watch all three parts, especially part 3 on Trace Coating Cautions.

Definitely practice on scraps until you get the effect you want.

If you don't want to have the pieces stick together you need to let them dry until they are no longer cool to the touch. The glue can be dry and not feel tacky but if it feels cool it is still a little moist and, as you noticed, will grab like contact paper. If it is no longer cool to the touch you won't need the wax paper. The veneer won't stick until you apply heat and pressure.

Looking good

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 4 Dec 2016, 05:10 am
Thanks for the Transtint info Mike, I will definitely look into that. 

I realize I can let the heat lock dry longer, but it has been my experience, the longer it dries the longer you have to apply heat. For this Burl there seemed to be a happy medium where I could just let it dry long enough not to be tacky and minimum heating time, it still had to be heated, but just not as long as it did when I let the glue dry longer than necessary.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 4 Dec 2016, 08:10 pm
Looking really good Ed  :thumb:
We just  did anotgher pair of subs for someone and used the  same veneer softner. When I wiped the softner on with a sponge, it really  seemed to  change the color  of the wood ( another local user told me this mayhappen).  Once the  veneer was applied and  sanded with a  foam sanding blcok, the discoloration disappeared.  I don't know if this would be the case for youi as it sems to be taking something away (red0  rather  than  darkening or adding a bit of color  like it seemed to do in our case

Remember too, if any  areas of the heat lock atre totally dry, it takes the  full  temp ( I can't recall what that is)  to full re-activate and completely bond. I get what you are  doing by trying to  attach while  still a bit tacky, just be careful you  get a  true bond.  I've read  numerous  times about heat lock failing  due to not being fully reactivated.

Also, regarding the  dye and adding  some red back into your veneer. Remember, if there is ANY glue on the surface or   it has bled through from the rear side in any amount, the dye will  not take.  I learned this  the first hand when I  used  the blood red dye on the  last pair of encore cabinets. In the end, I was able to fix  them up but   it gave me a good scare when I ended up with a couple blotches where the dye didn't take
Just something to be aware of

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 4 Dec 2016, 11:02 pm
Thanks Jay.  I have done a little sanding, I think this is a different situation than what you experienced.  Thanks for the tip on the glue, with some of the occlusions, although only a few are "holes" through the the veneer, there are a few, I will need to check the seams as well.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 5 Dec 2016, 04:11 am
One last piece done today, not cleaned up yet but starting to take shape:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154414)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 5 Dec 2016, 03:28 pm
Ed..nice veneer and nice work. 

I do some woodworking and have used shellac for some time.   I think nearly any (desirable) finish is going to darken the veneer somewhat.  I've seen kitchen cab makers use conversion varnishes that keep the wood very light, but the finish itself, appearance-wise, looked bad to me..cloudy.  Though I don't doubt their finish was resistant to anything found in a kitchen.  I saw their finish completely kill some (what would have been) gorgeous quarter-sawn white oak.  Sad to see..I had to walk away.

I use shellac on nearly every piece I make.  On a burl it would be a must-do for me as shellac pops/adds depth to the grain, curl, chatoyance like few other finishes can.  Some oils do it well, but oils tend to go darker than shellac..in my experience.   One other nice option with shellac, in addition to popping the grain, is that shellac can be purchased in many different natural shades..see:

https://www.shellac.net/

Garnet shellac has a nice reddish-amber tint to it.  There are many.

Shellac can also be tinted with Transtint.  Transtint dye is great stuff.  Very forgiving when you apply it as it evens out very well. It can be applied with a distilled water carrier or water-alcohol mix, or alcohol carrier.  Transtint seems pricey, but a drop goes a long ways when dying wood.   One thing to think about with any stain/dye application and veneer is how the dye carrier may interact with the veneer glue.  Dyes look MUCH MUCH better than traditional oil or water based stains.  Transtint looks terrible on wood after it dries(like mud)..but the subsequent shellac or topcoats make it look gorgeous.

For some info on how to use Transtint, see the link below.  You probably won't be doing a 'mission finish', but it's a good article of general finishing pathways.

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/stickley.pdf

Shellac is also a universal sealer.  Many sanding sealers are a light shellac cut (half-pound?).  Shellac will prevent subsequent finish coats from diving into the wood.  Shellac can be coated with nearly any topcoat..oil or water based. Shellac itself is a poor topcoat from a water/oil resistance point of view..it's sensitive (appearance-wise) to most anything, so it isn't great in areas where finish-resistance properties are needed.  Shellac can be applied to nearly any (water/oil based) finish without issues...assuming the alcohol carrier doesn't impact the base finish..and it may.  Shellac is an effective conversion coat between oil and water finishes..say..linseed or gunstock oil on bare wood and a water-based topcoat. (wood -> oil -> shellac -> waterbased topcoat finish schedule)

Spraying shellac with a gravity gun makes life very easy & you get great results.  Shellac can be sprayed at low temps..I've sprayed it outside at 35 degrees without issues.  Just make sure the humidity isn't real high as you can get some blushing (white haze) in the finish.  Shellac dries so fast it's very difficult to brush on a flat-wide surface without getting unsightly overlap..I've never been successful on flat surfaces and brushing.  Spraying..easy..with great results.  Harbor Freight as good-inexpensive spray guns if you have a compressor..with dry-oil free air.

If you don't like what a shellac coat looks like, wipe it off with alcohol (ethanol) and start over. 

A typical finish schedule for me is wood -> transtint -> shellac -> oil or waterbased topcoat, depending on enduse requirements/desirability.

Take any furniture polishes ("Pledge..etc") and toss them in the garbage..they are silicon oil based..aaacck!

..quasi random thoughts..
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Dec 2016, 04:54 pm
With shellac, when I want to show off the wood with no color change I use dewaxed super blonde shellac flakes. Super blonde is clear.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: jseipp on 5 Dec 2016, 05:27 pm
Those look great, Ed!  I've loved each iteration, and especially the adventurous approach you've taken to each design.  People are keeping the inspiration level high around here....
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 6 Dec 2016, 02:33 am
Hey John, thanks, the experimentation is the fun part assuming I'm not in a time crunch.  I love picking up ideas from the guys on this site, some of them are real artist.

Mike, FB, thanks for the info.  FB, thanks for the "typical finish schedule, that helps quite a bit.

I ordered red Transtint and I have been reading up on Crystalac wood grain filler, I am considering it to get a smooth finish, input is welcome.  Using Crystalac would allow me to mix the Transtint with it, of course another option is to do a wash with the Transtint before the Crystalac.  I believe the wash would enhance the figuring more where mixing with Crystalac would give the overall speaker a red tint leaving the figuring as it is now.  I will try both on some test strips in the end, but your experiences are appreciated.  Would there be a reason to use shellac over Crystalac or would it make more sense to go straight to poly?  Of course it seems many would go with shellac and not bother with the sealer ( both of which I could also mix with the Transtint).  Using the Transtint as a wash and mixed with the finish might be too much, Mike mentioned using black as a wash which might be a nice contrast.  I'm not going to have a lot of excess veneer to play too much, so hopefully I am able to land on an acceptable finish before having to use the speaker as a test strip. :thumb:  BTW, I don't own a large enough compressor to spray although I do have a new paint gun that I considered giving a shot a one point, with that in mind, what would be the best way to apply shellac if I would go that way.

Does anyone know if plane tree Burl goes blotchy with dyes?

Guys, thanks for sharing your knowledge here, it is appreciated.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 6 Dec 2016, 03:45 am
Ed,

The general rule of thumb is for the pore fill color to be darker than the main color. When you do a pore fill you sand it back to 220 after it dries. Then check to see if all the pores are filled. If not, do a second pore fill and sand it back to 320.  Then apply your finish.

If your finish is not compatible with your pore fill, apply one or two light coats (no more than 1 pound cut) of dewaxed shellac before applying the finish.

I have no idea about how your burl will handle dye. It depends on how hard the grain is that surrounds the softer grain of the figure. If the surrounding grain is hard enough the dye will stay in the figure, enhancing it. However, if the surrounding grain is not hard enough, the dye will bleed out of the figure resulting in a blotchy mess.  A test on scrap is essential to prevent an undesirable surprise  :nono:

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 6 Dec 2016, 02:27 pm
I ordered red Transtint and I have been reading up on Crystalac wood grain filler, I am considering it to get a smooth finish, input is welcome. 

Crystalac is good stuff and it works well.  As lundy suggests, fillers are often used as a dark in-grain accent.  If you look at the transtint/homestead link I posted earlier, the gel stain is serving the purpose of a dark-grain-filling accent in the mission finishes.  Visible grain in the finish surface is just another aesthetic choice..much like satin vs gloss vs flat topcoat. If you want an "oiled-wood" fine-finish appearance, then a filler & topcoat takes you away from that. 

Using Crystalac would allow me to mix the Transtint with it, of course another option is to do a wash with the Transtint before the Crystalac.  I believe the wash would enhance the figuring more where mixing with Crystalac would give the overall speaker a red tint leaving the figuring as it is now. 

Yes..you could mix Transtint(TT) with Crystalac(CL), but dying the wood and tinting the filler is really two different steps with different results intended. You may(??) get similar results by tinting the CL alone..but you may not & it's a one-way trip.  If it comes out bad, there's no reverse. If you're going to use TT with or without CL, I'd suggest using a gram (0.0 or 0.00) scale to prep your solutions. Keep track of what you mix up so you can reproduce it if you run short and need another batch.  A little TT goes a long way.

If it were me..I'd dye the wood independently from filling, if I wanted the wood tinted. I'd hit it with TT, then shellac to seal it(prevent more..uncontrolled color being added), then CL to fill the pores..either tinted or not. If you dye, then seal it with blonde shellac you'll be locking in the grain enhancement..from that point on you'll only start decreasing the enhancement with fillers, topcoats..etc...unless you topcoat with only a high-gloss finish.  The CL does have a slight whiteish haze if it gets thick.  Satin or flat topcoats have gloss flattening agents in them that slightly reduce that clear-grain-detail. 


I will try both on some test strips in the end, but your experiences are appreciated. 

Think hard and lots of test strips..like I said..some steps are a one way trip.  Messing things up after all your work so far.. :((..

Would there be a reason to use shellac over Crystalac or would it make more sense to go straight to poly? 

I think you can go straight to a topcoat.  Water-white clear topcoats sounds like what you're looking for(General Finishes products are my first choice)..there are some good ones out there.  Minwax has a waterbased acrylic ..Polycrylic.. (satin) that looks nice and is easy to apply. I'm not a fan of Minwax products, but Polycrylic is fine.  CL has waterbased clear topcoats too..very good. If a very slight..nearly none amber topcoat works for you then General Finishes Arm-R-Seal (satin) is a forgiving wipe on modified oil finish and is great stuff. Resistant to most anything too and gives a bare-wood appearance if you use just a couple coats. If you use this..send up a flare..there's a few tips that make it easier. 

Of course it seems many would go with shellac and not bother with the sealer ( both of which I could also mix with the Transtint).

You're mixing terms..shellac is a sealer, "the sealer" is, I assume,  CL grain filler..I think.

Using the Transtint as a wash and mixed with the finish might be too much, Mike mentioned using black as a wash which might be a nice contrast. 

Terminology again...finishing can involve "wash coats" (as in applying a sanding sealer), but in this context you're dyeing, or filling, or sealing, or topcoating...  Be very careful about "using black as a wash.."  if you don't do this exactly right you'll end up with mud as a final appearance. A black-tinted filler on top of a shellac seal coat is controllable, but can/will darken the overall appearance of your piece. If you use a filler wipe it near dry when applying at 90 degrees to the grain direction.

I'm not going to have a lot of excess veneer to play too much, so hopefully I am able to land on an acceptable finish before having to use the speaker as a test strip. :thumb:  BTW, I don't own a large enough compressor to spray although I do have a new paint gun that I considered giving a shot a one point, with that in mind, what would be the best way to apply shellac if I would go that way.

I can only speak for myself..but I wouldn't consider shellac application possible(on flat-broad surfaces to yield excellent results) without spraying it. And for some of the finish schedule options you're discussing, they'd only be successful with mixing shellac seal coats in at the right points.  I have a version of this gun:

http://www.harborfreight.com/20-oz-high-volume-low-pressure-gravity-feed-spray-gun-47016.html

and right out of the box it'll yield great results. You can use flat cardboard to optimize the spray pattern & gun adjustments prior to spraying your pieces.  A one pound shellac cut is good.  Jeff Jewitt has a spray finishing book with included DVD that covers everything you need to know..and more.


Does anyone know if plane tree Burl goes blotchy with dyes?

Blotching would be a real concern for me. Lundy describes the issue well.  I haven't worked with burl, but, given the grain appearance, I'd think blotching would happen.   Charles Neil has a blotch control product that actually works quite well. It will limit your ability to dye wood as it's a partial sealer.  One way to control-avoid blotching is color wood by spray-toning rather than dyeing directly.  I did this a while back with a curly-cherry table I built.  Dying this wood without controlling blotch would have been a disaster.  With toning you're coloring the wood with a surface coating..if the coating stays on the surface the color-dye  won't dive into the grain to create a blotch.  A lousy photo of the tabletop is below.  Freshly milled cherry has a pinky color to it that isn't that nice.  Age and light exposure will amber it down nicely, but that look can be had right away with sprayed garnet shellac..which I did here.  The sprayed shellac avoided blotch, enhanced the curl-grain, added color, and sealed the surface all in one step.  I topcoated the shellac with satin Arm-r-Seal.  The photo below is only wood with garnet shellac..the topcoats came later.

(http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/nearflooding/wood_machines/20131026_124254_zps9eb187d4.jpg)
 [/i]

Guys, thanks for sharing your knowledge here, it is appreciated.

Best,
Ed

See comments in italics above..
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 6 Dec 2016, 02:48 pm
Ed..btw..I have a Super V build that is l-o-n-g...l-o-n-g overdue and I remember your SV set & amp from my Super V research a couple years ago.  Very nice work on both!  I may be rattling your cage at some point as I'm sure I'll have questions.  I have a finished Sketchup build model worked up and all the parts needed, I just haven't had the time to start making sawdust yet.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ACHiPo on 6 Dec 2016, 05:34 pm
I used Crystalac and like it as well.  I'd also recommend picking up some Behlen's Wool Lube if you're going to build up any sort of finish with shellac and Crystalac.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 6 Dec 2016, 06:04 pm
I tried Crystalac on amp bases of last build...my second experience. I have no love of this stuff. While it might fill the grain, it seals the surface in such a way as to prevent penetration of anything applied on top. So if you're trying to pop grain, you're screwed after application.

I suppose I'm jaded, but after using solvent based finishes, water based and borne finishes just pose to many limitations and workarounds. They do nothing to enhance grain, chatoyance and figure.

And Ed, let me try and talk you out of polyurethane. I know people like it, but to my eye it has the visual effect of putting a plastic bag over your woodwork. Perhaps good on your kitchen cabs, but not so much for furniture.

Do you have spraying capability?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 6 Dec 2016, 06:23 pm
Thanks guys, a lot of good info here.

FB, if there is anything I can help you with on your SuperVs just ask, although I am not certain what it might be.

Peter, no spraying capabilities currently, what is the smallest compressor you would recommend for HVLP guns?  I have a pancake unit but I'm certain that is much too small.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 6 Dec 2016, 06:44 pm
The key to compressors isn't their HP,  which is almost always overstated. What you need to know is volume in CFM at xx pressure. The cheapo guns seem to use more air than their specs state, but HVLP typically run at 40psi. I would guess the HF guns consume maybe 6 or 7 cfm, but that's conjecture. The bigger the tank, the more reserve you have until you're running on the compressor directly.There are some good low cfm guns. I think Homestead has honest descriptions of their products.

It would open some doors for finishing. I like what I can do with diluted TransTint in the little harbor freight gun that came with the set I bought.

All that said, one can achieve a beautiful finish with hand applied stuff, the limitation being it protracts over time because finish film thickness building is slow multiple coats. My fav in this arena is Waterlox. Patience is definitely a virtue with it though.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 6 Dec 2016, 09:02 pm
I tried Crystalac on amp bases of last build...my second experience. I have no love of this stuff. While it might fill the grain, it seals the surface in such a way as to prevent penetration of anything applied on top. So if you're trying to pop grain, you're screwed after application.

I suppose I'm jaded, but after using solvent based finishes, water based and borne finishes just pose to many limitations and workarounds. They do nothing to enhance grain, chatoyance and figure.

And Ed, let me try and talk you out of polyurethane. I know people like it, but to my eye it has the visual effect of putting a plastic bag over your woodwork. Perhaps good on your kitchen cabs, but not so much for furniture.

Do you have spraying capability?

I'd agree..pretty much. 

The key with using Crystalac grain filler or waterbase topcoats is to use them at the right point in the finish schedule.  If one wants to pop grain & enhance chatoyance then you have to work on the raw wood itself.  Anything applied to the wood before one tries to pop grain with shellac or oil (boiled linseed or gunstock/Tru-Oil) is making an error.  If one wants to dye wood..then work on raw wood.  Dyes on raw wood followed by shellac or oil will pop the grain even more...blotching aside as that is a separate issue with it's own cures/approaches/finish schedules.   Applying dye/gel stain after some base coat (shellac..filler..etc..) has been applied will add some color, but not much..you're basically toning at this point and it may not yield predictable results.

Water based topcoats can work well, but they are just that..topcoats.  They offer protection.  If one wants to pop grain..then see above ^^.  Waterbase finishes offer advantages of quick drying/recoat and cleanup.    Quick dry also yields less dust pickup in the finish as compared to the longer dry times of an oil based.

I'd fully agree on the use of polyurethane...eck!  It's a plastic bag look that's ok for outdoor durability(boat brightwork) and surfaces needing lots of protection..gym floors, but for furniture..eck.   

Modified oils..as mentioned before Arm-r-Seal is a go to finish for me.  I still do grain popping and grain work before applying Arm-r-Seal, but it's an easy finish to apply, offers great protection, coats are very thin so you'll see/feel wood grain, and one-two coats (only) of satin can look like a fine-furniture oiled-wood finish.  Arm-r-Seal dries fast too. 

Ed..with a little practice and good technique you MAY be able to get by (?) with spray-can shellac.  It's blonde and dewaxed and you'll be topcoating it anyway so the shellac doesn't have to appear perfect..it just has to appear pretty good.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 16 Dec 2016, 05:42 pm
Thanks Peter/FB, much appreciated.

I have found the look I would like to mimic to the extent my tools and capabilities will allow.  I have the bright red trans tint. Looking at my veneer again, while it does have some texture it is not to the extent I feel I would have to use Cystalac, although that is still an option, I now have a tub of it at the house.  This is what I believe I would need to do to pull off something approaching the finish shown below (I have no illusions that it will come out like the pic below, but I would like to take a shot), comments/recommendations encouraged:
1) Mix bright red trans tint with alcohol and apply to veneer, follow with light sanding, reapply if needed(?)
2) Apply blonde shellac from spray can (does this need to be sanded and applied more than once?)
3)Apply Arm-R-Seal gloss, multiple coats, sanding with progressively finer sandpaper between coats

I realize these are likely very basic questions, however this is the first time I have tried to dye a veneer.  This is the finish I would like to attempt...no laughing :lol:

About the build, the veneer is Sapele Pomelle with a bright red tint, with about 40 coats of 2K Urethane on top and wet sanded/buffed to perfection.

(http://vaporsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Phil1_web.jpg)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Dec 2016, 06:57 pm
I doubt the red by itself will give you that color. You're probably going to need to mix some dark brown or black dye with the red to get the color you want.

This is going to be trial and error to find out how much of the darker color you need. If you don't have enough veneer to make all the test pieces you need you can use other hardwood scraps as test pieces until you get close then use the veneer scraps to dial it in.

When you start to get close, let the dye dry then wipe the piece with mineral spirits to get an idea what it will look like after the finish is applied.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 16 Dec 2016, 07:41 pm
I doubt the red by itself will give you that color. You're probably going to need to mix some dark brown or black dye with the red to get the color you want.

This is going to be trial and error to find out how much of the darker color you need. If you don't have enough veneer to make all the test pieces you need you can use other hardwood scraps as test pieces until you get close then use the veneer scraps to dial it in.

When you start to get close, let the dye dry then wipe the piece with mineral spirits to get an idea what it will look like after the finish is applied.
Thanks Mike.  Yes, the Sapele I have used in the past is typically a little darker and more brown than the plane Tree Burl I am using now so the bright red trans tint will have a different effect.  I am not stuck on that excat color but something in that vein is the direction I would like to end up.  Do you think this is best done as a red colored finish or do you think the wood itself was dyed and then a finish applied?  BTW, good idea trying to get close to the color using other stock, I have a few other veneer pieces laying around, thanks.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Dec 2016, 09:23 pm
Ed,

Those speakers look a lot redder on my computer monitor than they did on my phone. I'd still experiment a little with the color.

Dye will penetrate the wood while a tinted finish will sit on top of the wood, especially if you have a shellac wash coat underneath the finish.

Which is best dye, tinted topcoat or a combination of both, depends on the look you are going for. If you want both the red and the character of the wood to show, go with dye. Tinting the top coat will obscure some of the wood grain.

For example, when I want a really black plinth I dye the wood black, with the blackest dye I can find (India ink) then I add black TransTint to the topcoat material. I don't see much of the wood grain, enough to know it is wood and not MDF, but it sure is black.

With that beautiful burl I wouldn't tint the topcoat.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Dec 2016, 02:01 am
Thanks for that Mike.   :thumb:

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 17 Dec 2016, 03:12 pm
Ed..Good to have a reference pic for color, as you've posted above.

I have a number of comments on your proposed finish schedule, but I have a few things on my plate today..the first being the clearing of a fresh dump of snow.

In general the schedule looks very reasonable..one comment..ok..maybe two..

>Be very careful of the bright red transtint..unless they've changed it in recent years, I think you'll find it closer to stop sign red than what you're looking for.  The Homestead site (http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/transtint-liquid-dyes/) has sample images, but I remember it MUCH redder than the image they show.  You might consider #6010 red mahogany or #6003 reddish brown.

>another thought..if you went with a (one) shellac based coat on wood (pops grain and seals it) and then follow with General Finishes Georgian Cherry gel stain, then wipe off nearly dry, then shellac & topcoat.  I can post some pics when I find them.  The GF gel stains may use dyes for color..by the look of them..very clean colors like dyes. The georgian cherry is one of my favs, though it may be too winey-red for what you're looking for..but they have other colors.  Here's some sample colors

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b3/51/03/b35103704ec300fb043ffa3e6d9a777f.jpg

Easy to work with on top of shellac and forgiving in application.

I'll be back..stuff to do..
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 19 Dec 2016, 12:35 am
Thanks FB, interested in the remainder of your comments.  Meanwhile, I have been experimenting with a few samples.  Here are a few pics, I like mixing the Transtint with the denatured alcohol better than the water.  The first and second pics are a scrap I used the Transtint/water mix, followed by spray shellac, and a couple of coats of arm-r-seal gloss.  The last pic is of a piece of Sapele and a piece of the plane tree Burl wiped with the Transtint mixed with denatured alcohol.  I have done several Pommele Sapele projects, I never considered dying it, but it appears to take the tint very well.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155145)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155146)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155147)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 19 Dec 2016, 02:24 am
A little more progress made, front, back and short wings left.  I really like the bright red on the Sapele, not as much on the plane tree Burl, I made need to order another color of Transtint, maybe the mahogany.

A couple of pics for your amusement:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155155)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155156)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: jseipp on 19 Dec 2016, 02:33 am
Those look amazing, Ed.  I wish that I had the kind of sage input others here have offered, but I can only admire your work while learning from both you and from them. 

I know that you will end up with true treasures, made by your own hands.  It is a privilege to see their development. 
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 19 Dec 2016, 02:09 pm
Ed..good progress.  Testing is a big deal.  I've spent an entire week+ futzing with samples before I get to where I want to go. 

I agree with your comments on the last sample pic.  A rich red can look gorgeous..pinky in color..not so much.  Using alcohol as the dye carrier..also a good choice as long as it doesn't bother the veneer adhesive.  The dye-carrier often comes down to personal preference as the dye application is forgiving in any case.  With veneer being touchy to much sanding(due to it being very thin), and water often raising grain &  requiring sanding, alcohol avoids those issues.  Also..also..great practice to do the full potential finish schedule on a sample from wood to dye to shellac to topcoats.  This reduces any surprises.

Regarding your finish schedule:

1) Mix bright red trans tint with alcohol and apply to veneer, follow with light sanding, reapply if needed(?)

Comment: Bright red or whatever you end up with.  Alcohol is fine and sanding may not be needed.

2) Apply blonde shellac from spray can (does this need to be sanded and applied more than once?)

Comment: As I mentioned earlier, with good technique(start spraying before you pass over the surface and stop after you're past the surface-edge..using more cans is better than taking the chance on messing up) you may be in good shape with spray can shellac.  Your overall surfaces you'll be spraying are right-sized for a spray can.  Doing a larger table (flat surface) with a spray can..won't work as it'll be too tough to get a uniform appearance.  One good coat of shellac will probably be ok to seal the surface.  "Good" meaning a continuous thin coat of shellac without it getting too thick or too thin..making it discontinuous.  Subjective I know..it's a "know it when you see it" thing.  You might practice a little on cardboard with good lighting to examine what you're doing while it's wet. You'll see what "right" looks like.  Shellac dries fast and offers little opportunity for 'fixing' things. If you try to fix it, it'll just get worse.  Shellac can be removed with a wet rag (alcohol), but this may impact the dye underneath.  It's a slippery slope..it's best to just not mess up.   Again..one coat should be fine and a little very light sanding (300-400 grit) will smooth it out.  Use a sanding block to keep an even pressure overall, and be very careful on the edges. 

3)Apply Arm-R-Seal gloss, multiple coats, sanding with progressively finer sandpaper between coats

Comment:  Sure.  A practice run with applying AR-Seal on a wider surface with multiple coats may be time well spent.  Good technique matters here too to get an even appearance. Maybe you have a piece of cheap maple-veneered plywood laying around?  Do the full desired-finish schedule on it.  Don't worry so much about what the dye looks like (maple blotches badly)..focus on the topcoat appearance-development-technique.  Typically..2-3ish coats of AR-Seal is plenty for a natural look and great protection.  More than that will start to build up. It depends on what you're after.  I've not done more than 4 coats with AR-Seal.  You might try the blue, lint-free, pattern-free, paper-like rolls of shop towels (home depot?) as the applicator.  Avoid any in-towel embossed patterns as that pattern will end up in your finish at some point. I often burn the finish soaked towels right away..fast-safe way to get rid of them. Oily rags are hazardous..

_____________

More off the top of my head thoughts..

Your burl vs sapele image tells the tale to some extent.  The chatoyance available in the sapele offers many opportunities to finish light, dark, or in between and the contrast/depth will still be there.  The burl-grain looks to have more of a flat-monotone appearance in that it accepts dye in a more uniform manner(little contrast).  When the grain has a flat (no chatoyance) appearance..I've never been able to wake it up and get chatoyance/contrast from it, no matter what I've tried...with one, sort of exception.  I've worked on quarter-sawn sycamore that has the flat appearance of your burl..beautiful grain, but no glow.  On wood like this you (I) just make the most of what you see in the wood. I would be careful with going too dark in dye-color as you'll start to lose the detail in the wood you have..it'll get dark and all look somewhat the same.  Of course, the 40-coat high gloss finish on the goal-pics you posted can make "dark-low-contrast" look spectacular.   

One option you might consider.  I worked out a path to a "Michaels Cherry" mission finish on q-sawn white oak that I like a lot and I've used color variations on that path a number of times with good results. I sand the wood, then apply Transtint #6001 Honey Amber.  The result is a piece of furniture that is canary-yellow..it's un-nerving the first time you do it. Then comes a coat of shellac to seal it in. Then (for Michaels Cherry look..reddish medium brown) wipe on the General Finishes Georgian Cherry gel stain, wipe dry at 90 degrees to grain(keeps dark gel in grain crevasses), let dry, optionally hit it with shellac to seal it, then topcoat.   I've used the 6001>shellac>different color gel stain route too..looks nice.   You end up with an appearance of the yellow highlights under the first coat of shellac toned by the overall color of the gel stain.  In general some "wood-level highlights" are added where none existed.  This path might be worth a shot in a sample...  Below is a pic of this path on mahogany..not a great pic, but it's better than nothing(on left 6001 yellow dye covered with shellac, on right the gel stain added on top of yellow/shellac):

(http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/nearflooding/1113%20finishing%20samples/20150314_143327_zps6yqxwmi5.jpg)
 
Another lousy pic of a bath vanity, q-sawn white oak>6001 yellow dye>shellac>brown gel stain>shellac>acrylic topcoat:

(http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/nearflooding/DSCF00011.jpg)

As you know..there's an infinite number of options/combinations..I just use my gut and go with it..
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 20 Dec 2016, 02:59 am
Thanks John, I hope that I can get this finish to look decent, still a way to go.

Thanks FB, testing is the only way I will know what it will look like.  I am making some headway, I was not using a high enough concentratiion of dye, it's looking better now.  I have also tried the dye on top of a coat of shellac, that looked good although this seems like the wrong way to apply it since the shellac is somewhat sealing the wood and keeping the dye from penetrating.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155179)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155180)


Thanks also for the oily rag note, good call.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 20 Dec 2016, 05:11 am
Ed,

The second to the last sample is looking nice. You are losing the little dark to light brown contrast but the harder grain between the figure is being highlighted. This sets off the swirly pattern of the burl nicely.

If you do end up with the spray shellac uneven you can pad it out. You want a 3/4 or even 1/2 pound cut for this. That means getting some dewaxed blonde shellac in a can and thinning it with alcohol or mixing up some from flakes. You want the pad to be on the dry side and you start out using very light strokes. Go back and forth over the surface until the pad dries out. As it dries out you apply more pressure.

You start each stroke like a plane landing at one end of the piece and end the stroke like a plane taking off at the other end of the piece. Keep the pad moving at all times. This will remelt the shellac and smooth it out.

Mike   
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: yardbird on 20 Dec 2016, 12:19 pm
I've had good luck with this kind of process as well. i use primarily water borne dyes but they will raise the grain. I typically add the shellac by wiping with a cotton rag- very easy and i prefer this over spraying. Make sure you use shellac without wax. The Zinser Sealcoat works fine and is much cheaper than mixing your own. I like the cherry and oak craftsman gels sold by Rockler (made by General). Sealing with a wipe on has worked well for me (General Arm R All is great). I typically do a satin finish. PITA but nice looking.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 20 Dec 2016, 06:43 pm
Ed..your samples are looking great..very rich appearance.  You'll want the dye to go directly on the wood as it'll accent the grain much more than applying it on top of a shellac coat.  Shellac is very much a sealer.   As you're seeing..the dye on the wood, once dry, looks like mud..but once you hit it with shellac it really lights up.  Dye + shellac is a great combo.  Oil can pop grain, but it looks darker...shellac seems to capture light better.

I trust you're keeping very good records of how you're mixing up testing solutions so you can repeat the dye-concentration once you decide it's "show time" to do the speakers.  I use a 0.00 gram scale.  Once you do the speakers you'll either need to be real sure you have plenty of dye-alcohol made up to complete both speakers or an accurate pathway (scale is the easiest/most accurate) to make up more if you run out.

Looks/sounds like you're on your way..looking forward to seeing them when you're done.

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 27 Dec 2016, 12:45 am
Thanks guys, making slow progress .  I like the second sample but I want to go a little lighter, I know how I got to that one so I will back it off a bit.

I was able to work on them a bit today, pics below.  I am down to two sheets of veneer so I decided to lay out what remains to be done, it's close, can't have many mistakes.

I had to do a few small seams today.  I know some have had issues with seams when using heatlock so I have included a couple pics of the seams below.  I used this method on an insert I did on my V1 crossover covers a few years ago, I did the same today and the seams came out tight.  I simply cut the piece to insert an 1/8" longer than needed, when ironing I butt the edge of the iron tight to the edge of the lower veneer and the on top of the edge.  I then sand off the top veneer until the overlap is gone, I use 220 to take it off slowly so I don't overs sand, I'm happy with the outcome.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155430)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155431)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155432)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155429)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Uncle Elvis on 31 Dec 2016, 04:33 pm
This is a super cool thread. Nice work. Thx for taking the time to post pictures. Can't wait to see the finished product!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 31 Dec 2016, 06:47 pm
This is a super cool thread. Nice work. Thx for taking the time to post pictures. Can't wait to see the finished product!
Thanks UE, I hope to have more time to work on them this weekend and the coming weeks.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 2 Jan 2017, 02:45 am
Finished veneering one bass unit today, slow going on the front with the recess for the grill, but I like the way it turned out, next one should go a little quicker.  Trying to use cut off pieces wherever possible, I am going to be cutting it close on veneer.  This project had more veneer work than what I initially realized but I am veneering a few more areas than originally planned. The softener definitely saved the day with regard to splitting, very little so far.  Here are a couple more pics.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155711)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155716)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155718)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155717)


Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 Jan 2017, 04:23 am
Wow, they are looking  really   good Ed.
I still really like the sloped top on teh inner wing of the MTM's I sent you, the new flat packs are at 9 degrees so guys have the opton of doing what they want.

Can't wait to see these when they are done man  :beer:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: bdp24 on 2 Jan 2017, 05:26 am
Fantastic! They look like a high-end commercial product retailing for $50,000, not a DIY job.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 2 Jan 2017, 07:25 pm
Thanks Jay, I like the angle as well.  If I had it to do over for this particular build, I would have angled off the corners on both wings instead of leaving them round, however the time to do that would have been before I put them together.

Thanks bdp, that's probably stretching it about $47k but I have been reasonably happy with the way they are turning out.  If I can get a good finish I will be happy.

I am working to complete the veneering for one speaker today, however this turned out pretty well and I thought some of you might appreciate seeing it:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155744)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155745)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155746)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 2 Jan 2017, 08:41 pm
Ed,

You have my attention. How did you get the veneer to work in the waveguide?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 2 Jan 2017, 09:15 pm
Ed,

You have my attention. How did you get the veneer to work in the waveguide?

Mike
Hey Mike.  I took pic of the steps, heading out to a family function now, will post more info tonight.

Best,
Ee
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 Jan 2017, 09:50 pm
Yeah, that's cool, nice job.  Can't wait to hear how you did that as well

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: zybar on 2 Jan 2017, 11:17 pm
Awesome job Ed!

You really are underestimating your skills and abilities.

I hope they sound as good as they look.

George
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 3 Jan 2017, 01:40 am
Ed, I have to say you are doing something that I've wondered to myself if it was even feasible... very cool doing veneer on that waveguide.

 Since first seeing the CNC waveguides, I've pondered the possibility of veneering and best I could thing of was segmenting somehow but it appears you've done it with a single piece. I can only guess how but my mind's cranking about it.

 Do tell!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 3 Jan 2017, 01:53 am
Thanks Jay, I have a few pics showing how I went about it below.

Thanks George.  I haven't heard these yet so it is a bit of a gamble, the Wedgies I am currently running are going to be a hard act to follow, I really love them.  But having built several of Danny's designs I have no doubt they will sound great, I know if they aren't finished when I put them into action, they will likely stay in that state, that pushes me to complete speakers before I listen, that is if I want a finished pair instead f staring at mdf  :duh:.

Hi Peter, cutting wedges crossed my mind but I think this was easier.

I was thinking about how I might go about veneering the waveguide when I remembered a video I saw when I was researching vinyl application, a guy was applying vinyl to a Vette, he was working on some tail light cavities and he used paper to make a pattern, here is what I did:

I used painters tape to create my pattern

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155773)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155774)

Then I decided where I wanted my seam to be and sliced the tape from center to edge

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155775)

When peeled it off and flattened it out I was left with this pattern

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155776)

I cut my veneer (after softening) slightly larger than the pattern

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155777)

I prepped the waveguide and veneer with heatlock, once it was dry I dry fit and decided which corner to locate the seam.  I used my wife's curling iron in the corners followed up with the iron using the flat, tip and edge to get it from the front of the baffle and the rear. I finished with sandpaper around a dowell to sand the overlapped veneer as described earlier than the thread.  I found it important to set the corners first, I sprayed the softener again once complete and sanded.

Sorry for the lack of pics during the actual application.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 3 Jan 2017, 02:22 am
Very clever, I love it!

 Makes me want to try it. Thanks for the photos, I don't think I'd have tumbled to it otherwise.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 3 Jan 2017, 02:48 am
^^^  ditto,    great idea
I know the shape of the bottom of that wavegude so I'm  a little curious, is that last little   bit where it rolls down to meet the tweeter just  dyed/painted ?  did you just sand the lower edge of the veneer   to  blned n with the bery bottom radiuis ?   I can't see you being able to  make the veneer   double bend  in that area....
jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 3 Jan 2017, 03:40 am
^^^  ditto,    great idea
I know the shape of the bottom of that wavegude so I'm  a little curious, is that last little   bit where it rolls down to meet the tweeter just  dyed/painted ?  did you just sand the lower edge of the veneer   to  blned n with the bery bottom radiuis ?   I can't see you being able to  make the veneer   double bend  in that area....
jay
Hey Jay, the rear edge came out OK, but did break up some in the corners.  I tried to get a pic but I couldn't get a good one. 

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155781)

I will probably end up sanding it down and dying the last 1\16".

I think a stouter veneer like Sapele might actually work around the interior edge.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 3 Jan 2017, 03:47 am
Hey Jay, the rear edge came out OK, but did break up some in the corners.  I tried to get a pic but I couldn't get a good one.

So, you tried to take it right down to the face of the tweeter ?    I can see that  very bottom part causing issues as it would turn into a  double bend as I  kind  of  hinted at above......  I wonder if taking  it down to the   beginning of the last  angle and  smoothing it into   the last .25"  of the guide would   work out ok...  ?   A guy could do that last  little bit black and it  would  blend right in with the tweeter,  just a thought
In any event, it looks like what you've done turned out great  :)

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 3 Jan 2017, 05:11 am
Ed,

Once you get these done and playing I'm interested in your opinion of the comparision between the MTM Oticas and the Wedgies. I think you and I are the only ones who will have both to compare.

I have been listening to the MTM Oticas for a couple of months now (raw MDF). When I first started listening to them I would go back and forth between the Otiacs and the Wedgies. My initial impressions were that the Oticas were fuller, almost too much so (kinda cavernous sounding), but the Wedgies were cleaner and more precise. The Oticas seemed to lack something compared to the Wedgies but I couldn't put my finger on it.

I thought some of it might be that the Wedgies were well broken in (playing for over a year) while the Oticas were brand new. So I decided to leave the Wedgies out of the system and just listen to the MTM Oticas for a few months. That way they get well broken in and I get used to their sound. Then I will sit down and do some critical listening to the Oticas then put the Wedgies back in and see how they compare.

As the Oticas get more playing time on them and I futz with placement more they are tightening up and smoothing out. In my smallish room with the listening position 8' from the speakers I found the Oticas sound a lot better with more toe-in than the Wedgies. The additional toe-in gave the large sound stage I expect from OB speakers but reduced the cavernous sound. Two months of playing has pretty much eliminated the cavernous aspect.

The Oticas are now full sounding and silky smooth. However they do not have that crazy clean sound I remember from the Wedgies.  At the end of Jan or early part of Feb I'll put the Wedgies back in and compare them.

Either way, the MTM Oticas and Wedgies (combined with 2 x 12 OB servo Subs) are both exceptional listening experiences. My gut feel at this point is that "better" is going to come down to personal preference for a particular sound profile.

I look forward to your impressions.

I'm going to have to try that veneer trick on the waveguide.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 8 Jan 2017, 01:37 am
Jay, the inner edge actually came out pretty well, the small area that broke off was likely due to me applying too much pressure with the edge of the iron, anyway, the result is pretty good with a small exception that I will have to fill.

Mike, I'm anxious to hear these, hopefully by the end of this month.

I mentioned earlier, I am running really close on my veneer, if I don't have any mistakes I should be ok, I laid out what I needed on the pieces I have left in Visio .  My initial design didn't veneer the baffle, pics below of what I had planned for those still playing along.  If I have enough veneer after getting everything else covered, I will do the baffles as well. 


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156009)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156010)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156011)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156012)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156013)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156014)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156015)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156016)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156017)

I know it is all subjective, but opinions regarding the copper vs the black brushed aluminum are welcome.  If you prefer the copper, what do you recommend as a color for the grill cloth ?  Disregard the imperfections in the vinyl, I threw these on to get a feel for the colors.  Of course once the finish is applied the wood will be darker.

Best,
Ed

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 8 Jan 2017, 02:14 am
Ed,

To me the veneered waveguide doesn't look right with the black baffle. It looks better with the copper. Probably because the copper is closer to the color of the veneer.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 8 Jan 2017, 04:05 am
Ed,

To me the veneered waveguide doesn't look right with the black baffle. It looks better with the copper. Probably because the copper is closer to the color of the veneer.

Mike
I think I'm going to have to wait until the speaker is finished to make a choice, if the wood is more red I think the black would work, something closer to what it is now, I agree, the copper looks better.  If I get the baffles veneered it will be a moot point.

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Early B. on 8 Jan 2017, 05:52 am
Go with copper. I did.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Jan 2017, 06:11 pm
Ed,  I hope you end up having enough veneer,  I think that by far would look best.   
i agree with  Mike and Early,  right now (with the light tone of the wood),   the copper  looks better,  just tooo much contrast with that wave guide whenn the baffle is black  As you say, that could change   if the  finish  you go with  really  reddens/darkens  the veneer.  If  the veneer does turn out to be fairly dark and  the black works,  Ithink it might  be an idea to try   carbon fiber as an option  as well, might be an interesting mix with the veneer....
 Looking forward to  more pics  :beer:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 8 Jan 2017, 07:25 pm
Thanks guys.  I have decided that I will veneer the baffles.  I am cutting out the needed pieces including the baffles from what I have left, if I run short I will pick up some additional veneer, the gentleman I bought it from has more of the plane tree Burl for sale.  It may not match perfectly, but for the insets it won't be obvious.  I think I am going to have enough.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 9 Jan 2017, 02:56 am
I'm considering buying this unit ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003PGQI48/?tag=paint-sprayer-furniture-20) so I can spray the tint, shellac and arm r seal or whatever I land on.  How does spraying change my finish schedule?

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 16 Jan 2017, 11:39 pm
Not much progress, but I did manage to finish one speaker.  Now I need to finish the other speaker.  A few pics:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156437)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156436)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156438)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156440)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156441)

The next pics I post will be during the finishing process .  I have ordered additional Transtint, a yellow and brown, and a quart of the Zinsser Seal Coat dewaxed shellac.  Looking at the veneered speaker I am considering shellac and topcoat, no tint.  I may stand a better chance of success going that direction.  I am going to play with some additional tints before making my final decision.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: DeeJayBump on 17 Jan 2017, 12:02 am
Man, those look nice even at this point in the process.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Early B. on 17 Jan 2017, 02:00 am
Man, those look nice even at this point in the process.

Yep. I'd probably stop right here.  :lol:
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: fishboat on 17 Jan 2017, 01:35 pm


The next pics I post will be during the finishing process .  I have ordered additional Transtint, a yellow and brown, and a quart of the Zinsser Seal Coat dewaxed shellac.  Looking at the veneered speaker I am considering shellac and topcoat, no tint.  I may stand a better chance of success going that direction.  I am going to play with some additional tints before making my final decision.

Best,
Ed

Ed,  Nice work on the veneering..lots of careful effort there.

Finishing..forging a new finishing path on an unknown wood is always dicey.  I've found shellac over wood (to enhance grain and seal the wood surface) and then either tinting the topcoat, or applying a thin application of General Finishes Gel Stain and then topcoats, to be a pretty safe and reliable finish schedule. 

Doing the tinting through the gel stain is quite controllable.  Once the shellac is on the wood you can wipe the gel stain off to nearly dry (apply gel to get full coverage by swirling application..it goes on like paste wax on a car..then wipe off with paper towels, 90* to grain).  You'll end up with the base color of the gel stain on the shellac (a tint).  How much color/tint depends on how dry you wipe off the gel stain.  You will get color..you can't wipe it all off..unless you wipe with mineral spirits. You may have some excess gel color in tight corners..basically toning..take a look at toned kitchen cabinet pics for a reference.  The gel gives you enough working-open time to get all this done.  You'll just need to be careful with surface-to-surface consistency in terms of wiping the gel off (color added).  This path will look different than a tinted topcoat as you'll get some gel(color, highlights?) in any grain low spots (see the trim piece pic I posted above). 

Tinting the topcoat(skipping the gel application) avoids surface-to-surface consistency as the color is in the finish rather than on the wood.  Much like you. I'm looking forward to seeing where you end up.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 17 Jan 2017, 04:36 pm
Ed,

The H-Frame has the recess cut in for a recessed grill but your grill frame extends above the top of the H-Frame. Are your grill frames surface mounted (not using the recess) or do they fit in the recess and extend above the top?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: NeilT on 17 Jan 2017, 05:12 pm

Good question Mike, I was wondering about the same thing.

Great job Ed, looks awesome.

Neil
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156468)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Jan 2017, 07:08 pm
Thanks guys, I'm pretty happy with the build so far.

Mike/Neil, to answer your question, yes, the grill fits into the inset and extends beyond the inset 3/8" which is the distance the baffle (where the wings fit into the baffle of Jay's flat pack) extends beyond the bass/base unit.  The trapezoid at the top of the grill sits in front of the bass/base.  I did this to tie everything together but maintain the front of the bass/base unit in case I want to use them as stand-alone units in the future.

Before assembling the top section I cut a 1/16" reveal into the wings vertical edges where they tie into the baffle to give me a line of demarcation between the wings and the baffle.  I did this because the original plan was to vinyl the baffle and I wanted a clean area for the vinyl edge to go, this is the section that hangs beyond the face of the bass/base.
Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 18 Jan 2017, 06:10 am
Ed,  Nice work on the veneering..lots of careful effort there.

Finishing..forging a new finishing path on an unknown wood is always dicey.  I've found shellac over wood (to enhance grain and seal the wood surface) and then either tinting the topcoat, or applying a thin application of General Finishes Gel Stain and then topcoats, to be a pretty safe and reliable finish schedule. 

Doing the tinting through the gel stain is quite controllable.  Once the shellac is on the wood you can wipe the gel stain off to nearly dry (apply gel to get full coverage by swirling application..it goes on like paste wax on a car..then wipe off with paper towels, 90* to grain).  You'll end up with the base color of the gel stain on the shellac (a tint).  How much color/tint depends on how dry you wipe off the gel stain.  You will get color..you can't wipe it all off..unless you wipe with mineral spirits. You may have some excess gel color in tight corners..basically toning..take a look at toned kitchen cabinet pics for a reference.  The gel gives you enough working-open time to get all this done.  You'll just need to be careful with surface-to-surface consistency in terms of wiping the gel off (color added).  This path will look different than a tinted topcoat as you'll get some gel(color, highlights?) in any grain low spots (see the trim piece pic I posted above). 

Tinting the topcoat(skipping the gel application) avoids surface-to-surface consistency as the color is in the finish rather than on the wood.  Much like you. I'm looking forward to seeing where you end up.
I missed you post FB.  I will be testing the stain on top of shellac.  Fortunately, barring any mistakes it appears I will have enough veneer to finish.  Unfortunately, I am not going to have much spare veneer to test finishes on, I do have some old veneer to work with, that will give me a reasonable idea of what various finishes will look like.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 19 Jan 2017, 10:22 pm
OK, veneering is complete, Yay!  This is what I have left to try finishes out on:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156594)

Here are both speakers veneered:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156593)

I am hoping to land on a finish this weekend.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 20 Jan 2017, 02:31 am
Ed,

The veneer was the right choice. Looks much better than the solid baffles did. Glad you had enough.

Boy, cutting the grill frames that way must have taken a bunch of work. That's a lot of material to cut away if you formed each frame out of a single piece of material.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 20 Jan 2017, 02:48 am
Ed,

The veneer was the right choice. Looks much better than the solid baffles did. Glad you had enough.

Boy, cutting the grill frames that way must have taken a bunch of work. That's a lot of material to cut away if you formed each frame out of a single piece of material.

Mike
Thanks Mike, I really like the veneered baffle as well.

The grill frame was not that bad, most of the rabbet was done on the table saw with the last bit done with a hand saw.  The rest was done with a saber saw and a router.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 21 Jan 2017, 01:09 am
I like the veneer  as  well Ed, glad yo uhad enough to complete the job  :beer:
Looking forward to seeing   your choice  for  finishing

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 23 Jan 2017, 12:59 am
Thanks Jay, me too.

I didn't have time to play with finishes this weekend, but I was able to fill in a few occlusions, I simply cut out similar shapes and glued them in using heatlock followed by sanding.  I did my final sanding of the speakers using 400 and was able to clean out the garage in preparation for spraying.

With regard to finishing, after sanding I wiped down each piece using a rag with mineral spirits, after doing that to the baffles I asked myself, am I going to be able to improve on this using tint, my kneejerk is no.  BTW, these look more red in natural light.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156739)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ACHiPo on 23 Jan 2017, 02:33 am
Great work Ed!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 23 Jan 2017, 03:45 am
Boy that really did redden up. I never would have expected that.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 29 Jan 2017, 11:48 pm
Thanks AC.

Mike, it took me by surprise as well.

I have made a little progress in the finishing process.  I have decided that I am going to tint the speakers.  Here is a 4:1 yellow with an 8:1 red mix (using denatured alcohol), this was sprayed with a small spray bottle followed by two wiped on coats of arm r seal.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157124)

This is getting close to what I am looking for but still a bit dark.  BTW, I tried tinting the shellac, the result was similar but the grain was noticeably less defined, tinting the veneer first followed by shellac looks like the way to go on this project.

I played with my new sprayer today, I believe this is gong to work out well.  I practiced on a piece of paperback cherry.  I sprayed yellow followed by two applications of red.  I believe with a few more practice sessions I will get the mix to something approaching what I am looking for.  It appears I will be able to use multiple applications to get to the right shade.

With the sprayer working out, I am re-thinking what to use as a top coat.  I was going to use arm r seal, but spraying opens up options .  My current spray scedule looks like this: yellow tint followed by red tint , then clear shellac, looking for top coat recommendations.

Here is a pic of the cherry with the tints:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157123)


Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mpauly on 30 Jan 2017, 02:49 am
Beautiful work.  I've been watching this one closely as I'm going to take my first big foray into veneering with, but with some raw bubinga or high figure pommele sapele veneers that I picked up years ago but never had the nerve to use.  I've got lots of experience with working with solid woods, but this will be my first veneering project outside of some small trays and boxes I've made.

Regarding the finish, I'm kind of partial to the natural finish you have and think that red of a tint might be over powering on the full sized speaker, but that's just a matter of taste.  Do you think that the natural yellowing of an oil finish will work well with the red tint?  Have you done any tests with a few coats of boiled linseed oil  (BLO) followed by an oil finish (I also love Arm-R-Seal)?

Looking forward to the next installment. 
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 31 Jan 2017, 03:40 am
Thanks MPauly, I have been partial to clear finishes on veneered projects in the past as well, I am wanting to try something different with this build.  The spraying and the tint are both firsts for me.

I would like feedback on the following finishing schedule:

Tinting>Clear dewaxed shellac> lacquer

I would appreciate insights on spraying lacquer as the topcoat.

Best,
Ed




Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 31 Jan 2017, 08:03 am
Ed, if you're going to spray lacquer, there's really no need for the shellac as a sealer. You can color lacquer with Transtint and many are self sealing, meaning they are their own basecoat/sanding sealer. Shellac has it's unique place in the finishing world, but lacquer sanding sealer would be as good or better in this case.

Years ago nitrocellulose lacquer was everywhere, then came catalyzed variants, precatalyzed (pre-cat) probably being the most common. Generally, catalyzed finishes add some durability, but film buildup needs to be monitored unlike nitro, which you can lay down coat after coat without worry for the most part. Before urethanes, polyesters and the like, lacquers were the workhorses of industry and can still be worked to an incredible finish via cutting and buffing. Get a run or sag? Sand it flat and recoat. Unlike polyurethanes and varnishes, lacquer slightly melts into previous coats which makes it very forgiving. The reason it's not as popular has mostly to do with the solvents and availability.

If you've ever sprayed Deft from a spray can, that's nitro lacquer. What brands do you have access too?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 1 Feb 2017, 12:24 am
Thanks for that Peter.  I am looking at the Deft Lacquer available from Amazon in quarts, it states that it is Nitrocellulose.  I thought I would start with gloss and finish with a satin to keep it clear as possible up to the final coat unless of course I decide to stay with gloss.

Regarding tinting the lacquer, when I tinted the shellac and compared to the tinting followed by shellac, I felt the character of the veneer came through more clearly when the wood was tinted followed by the shellac.  I can't imagine the result would be different using lacquer, please let me know if this is not accurate.

I have a concern regarding odor, I have read that it can remain for 3 weeks or better, this is a concern for me, I am working in an attached garage, is this odor strong enough to smell up the house or is it closer to shellac and/or denatured alcohol?  The other issue is temperature, I have been told that shellac can be sprayed down into the 30's, is lacquer the same?  The garage doesn't get that cold, it is heated, but I would like to open the doors when spraying.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 1 Feb 2017, 03:03 am
The clouding of the grain is kinda dependent on the amount of tint, I suppose. There's a lot of lore surrounding it to, but that's another subject. It can even out color and in some cases that's a plus. But suffice to say you can do nearly the same thing with spraying tint. I sometimes spray a seal coat of clear and then tint on top of that. If I were using it with lacquer, I'd make the tint with lacquer thinner. Turn material flow down on your gun and it's really controllable. You can darken specific areas if you want. FWIW, almost any commercially made furniture has toner in the finish somewhere.

Odor?..well it stinks and there'll be overspray too. Some people find it unbearable, me not so much but my nose is probably shot. For sure use a respirator. Three weeks sounds like a stretch, but if you exhaust the fumes somehow and drape things with cheapo painters plastic and then throw that away, I don't think it'd be a problem. If your furnace is gas and in the garage where it would be exposed to the vapor, you'll want to shut if off while spraying. Lacquer dust is very flammable, part of the reason it's not used much in the DIY world.

I have heard of people renting Uhauls and using them as spray booths, but never done it. I've sprayed in pretty cool conditions, but generally above 50° F will get you better flow out of finish. You can add some thinner too. 

Might want do a practice run somehow so you know the ropes before committing on your masterpiece.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 26 Feb 2017, 12:22 am
Since my last post to this thread little progress has been made until today.  The time I have had to work on this build has been spent trying different finishes and tints.  Looking further into clear coats I decided on a water borne lacquer, the Target Finishes EM6000.  I had never worked with the solvent based lacquers so I decided to go straight to something that will be readily available into the future, that and the low odor were the primary considerations.

I wasn't really getting the result I wanted with the red tint so after reviewing the color of the veneer in the first post, I realized that it was closer to orange than it was red.  I picked up some orange tint, that with a few drops of red turned out to be where I ended up.  I will follow with two coats of the sealcoat and denatured alcohol.  I will follow that with multiple coats of the EM6000 waiting a week before applying.

For those still playing along, a couple of pics:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158369)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158370)


Tomorrow, shellac.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 26 Feb 2017, 12:41 am
Ed,

Looking good  :thumb:

Is the week wait between coats what the product calls for or your time constraints? Or did I read it wrong and the week wait is between the sealcoat and the lacquer?

How do you plan to apply the topcoat?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 26 Feb 2017, 12:46 am
Thanks Mike.  The week is between the sealcoat and the topcoat.  The topcoat can be re-applied after 30 minutes.  It burns in according to the documentation.

I am spraying everything.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: rockdrummer on 26 Feb 2017, 12:49 am
Nice color Ed. I really envy the patience and expertise it takes to veneer.

Using a shellac for my bottlehead stereomour base but I'm foam brushing that.

Awesome work.
Ben
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 26 Feb 2017, 01:03 am
Thanks Ben.  This is the first time I have sprayed other than the duplicolor I used on the Wedgies and Kaiju.  I picked up a Wagner sprayer for this project, so far it seems to do a good job.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 26 Feb 2017, 01:23 am
Thanks Ben.  This is the first time I have sprayed other than the duplicolor I used on the Wedgies and Kaiju.  I picked up a Wagner sprayer for this project, so far it seems to do a good job.

Best,
Ed

Ed,

HVLP?

What kind of pot time do you have with this particular lacquer and what is clean up like both between coats and when done for the day?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 26 Feb 2017, 01:57 am
Ed,

HVLP?

What kind of pot time do you have with this particular lacquer and what is clean up like both between coats and when done for the day?

Mike
Yes, HVLP, it is this unit:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003PGQI48/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have sprayed test pieces over the course of a day, 6 hrs or so, without issue, but that is the limit of my experience, I am still figuring this out.

Clean up has been fairly simple with this gun, it is easy to take apart and only 3 pieces.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 26 Feb 2017, 02:10 am
Ed,

Do you have to empty and clean it between each coat or only at the end of the 6 hours?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 26 Feb 2017, 02:17 am
I have only cleaned it at the end of the day, no more than 5 hrs or so.  I haven't noticed any issues, but again, these have been small samples. In that 5 hrs I would have sprayed about 7 coats.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 26 Feb 2017, 02:30 am
Ed,

That's good to hear because my gun is more complicated and a royal pain if I have to empty it and clean it out between each coat. That's been one of the drawbacks I've had with spraying: spray for 30 seconds to a minute; spend 15 minutes breaking down and cleaning gun; 15 minutes later, reassemble gun, spray for 30 seconds or so; repeat.

I'll be staying tuned to see how the topcoat works out.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Feb 2017, 05:18 pm
Love the color Ed  8)
Not a lacquer expert by any mens but  I know  with the sovent based  lacquer, it's important to keep the coats   very light to fast , even  dry times.  Some guys have told me it can take   a month or more for  lacquer  to fully cure one a top coat is built up.... keep   the cabinets away from the cold... trust me  :(

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 26 Feb 2017, 07:11 pm
Thanks Jay, I am happy with the way it is turning out.  According to the documentation, this topcoat is fully cured at 120hrs, the samples I sprayed were easily handled in far less time.  I am hoping we continue to have mild weather here, but I am able to keep the area warm.

After spraying shellac today I can see that I am going to have to spread out my painting area, I am getting some overspray in the back. 

Here they are with shellac, next weekend topcoat.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158384)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158383)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 6 Mar 2017, 03:47 am
After 10 topcoats:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158769)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158768)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158767)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158773)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158775)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158776)



They are turning out pretty well.  I have learned a lot and wish I had done a couple of things differently.  I was very cautious with the amount of shellac I applied as a sealer on top of the tint.  The instructions per Target Coatings was to cut the Zinsser seal coat with an equal amount of denatured alcohol and apply 2 coats.  I applied 3, however where I narrowed the spray for the front and rear of the bass cabs (resulting in additional product being applied), the finish came out with a greater glow compared to the rest of the build.  Next time I will probably make shellac from flakes so I can cover completely and not worry about crazing, which is the problem with the Zinnser under the em6000 when the Zinnser is applied too thickly.

Overall I am happy with the finish.   Am considering buffing it out, but because I did not fill the pores prior to finishing there will be imperfections, I am not certain how that will look with a highly buffed finish.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 6 Mar 2017, 02:28 pm
You're getting there, Ed.

Did you sand flat between some of those ten coats?

You can cut and buff even without grain filling, I've done it many times with solvent based finishes.  What does Target say about it with their product? Many water borne finishes cure by coalescing on top of prior coat so you get halos where you sand into all but the top coat. It's not always a good idea, I've fought similar with polyurethane.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 6 Mar 2017, 05:05 pm
Thanks Peter.  They actually look better than my poor photography shows.

The EM6000 is supposed to have full burn in like Nitro, so no witness lines, although I have read where some have had an issue with with witness lines using this product.

One gentleman has a youtube video of him buffing out the EM6000 on a guitar.  He starts "leveling" with 800 grit dry, then moves onto 1500 grit wet, followed by 2000 grit wet, then buffs it out on a buffing wheel, my plan was to do something similar now.  However, as you mentioned I should have doe a sanding at an intermediate level, probably 5 coats, then finished with the 5 additional coats, the gentleman with the guitar did at 6 coats.  I think I will sand on these a bit, testing on one section before doing it on the entire build.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 6 Mar 2017, 05:15 pm
They are looking good Ed !
 As Peter said,  block danding between  every  couple coats really  helps flatten things out. You'll continue to take the highs down   and fill the lows each time you repeat.  Never used the water based lacquers but  with the sovent based it's best to  apply  multiple  thin coats that dry quickly and prevent puddling

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 6 Mar 2017, 05:29 pm
Thanks Jay.  Yes, multiple thin coats with the water based as well.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 7 Mar 2017, 05:28 am
Ed, I'd sure encourage some sanding and recoating, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the result. I'd consider 800 as a beginning of polishing steps, but would probably start at 400 or even 320 were I trying to flatten a finish. Jay nailed it as to why sand between coats. The more you spray without flattening between coats, the hills and valleys get farther apart depth wise and the finish gets bumpy. The finish target you showed earlier was almost certainly done that way. You should be able to get a nice, flat, reflective surface.

One thing that will make it easier to sand without sanding through edges is a hard flat sanding block. You don't want the block to follow the contours of the finish, rather you're trying to "plane" the tops of the hills. I have a couple of these;

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=565

My air sanders have hard pads too, but you can do the same thing with hand sanding and elbow grease.


Unless Target has some mil thickness limit, you can keep going sand, spray, sand, spray etc. You could conceivably  fill the grain this way but it would take a while and you would want some fairly long wait times between or there's risk of having the finish shrink back over time, at least with finishes I'm accustomed to.

By the way, too thin of coats usually just make orange peel and  build more slowly. Ideally you want wet coats that are on the verge of sagging for best finish flow out, but that's a "feel" kind of thing you gain as you spray more, so stay in your comfort zone, I guess.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 7 Mar 2017, 05:30 pm
Ed, I'd sure encourage some sanding and recoating, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the result. I'd consider 800 as a beginning of polishing steps, but would probably start at 400 or even 320 were I trying to flatten a finish.

Unless Target has some mil thickness limit, you can keep going sand, spray, sand, spray etc. You could conceivably  fill the grain this way but it would take a while and you would want some fairly long wait times between or there's risk of having the finish shrink back over time, at least with finishes I'm accustomed to.

Hi Peter, I will be sanding and recoating.  It is tempting to let them ride, they really do look a lot better than the pics show (BTW, those pics are under 1000 watts of halogen lighting, the color appears more orange in the pics than they appear real world), but I would like to buff it out some.  I picked up a new palm sander and high grit paper just for that purpose.  I will check to ensure the sanding pad is rigid enough to hit the high spots and not follow the surface imperfections.

The tops of the bass cabinets would need to be sanded regardless, they did not come out as smooth as the sides and front, likely due to overspray.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 7 Mar 2017, 08:18 pm
Don't get me wrong, Ed. I'm not trying to dog what you're doing and I suppose it comes off that way. I just know you've put lots of effort into these thus far and I'm attempting, perhaps poorly, to be a cheerleader.

I think they'll be magnificent and certainly a statement.

And it sounds like you've figured out, sides first then tops to minimize overspray.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 7 Mar 2017, 09:32 pm
Don't get me wrong, Ed. I'm not trying to dog what you're doing and I suppose it comes off that way. I just know you've put lots of effort into these thus far and I'm attempting, perhaps poorly, to be a cheerleader.

I think they'll be magnificent and certainly a statement.

And it sounds like you've figured out, sides first then tops to minimize overspray.

Not taken that way at all Peter, no worries.  I truly appreciate all of the information that you and others have offered in this thread.  I hope the information will help others attempting to go for more challenging finishes as well.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Mar 2017, 12:42 am
One more thing I'll point out Ed and it' s likely obvious,  just be extra careful not to burn through as you've used a tint.  Should yo u go through, it may   make for a challanging fix.
the nice  thing about natural is if  there is any burn through,   it just   bleands right back in as soon as it is recovered.

I agree with Peter,  I think a few  rounds of  layers and sanding   will   have you  impressed  with  the results
You're almost there man   :beer:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 8 Mar 2017, 12:56 am
Thanks Jay.  I dyed the veneer spraying Transtint, so far my topcoat has been clear, so that shouldn't introduce any problems while sanding if I understand what you are cautioning me about.  However I decided I would put the pieces together tonight, what I found is that I will be tinting some topcoats once I have it leveled, I am going to have to even out the color between some of the individual pieces.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 21 Mar 2017, 02:22 am
Ed,

What do you think of the EM6000? I'm considering ordering some for the MTM Oticas I'm building.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 22 Mar 2017, 01:48 am
Ed,

What do you think of the EM6000? I'm considering ordering some for the MTM Oticas I'm building.

Mike
Mike,
I found the EM6000 easy to use in general, easy to apply.  You previously asked about the pot time, I would say that 5 hours is pretty close.  When I started spraying the entire project (as opposed to samples) I went through a lot more material, this meant it didn't sit in the gun as long and required me to tear the gun down and clean it more often than I noted earlier, about every other coat. 

I haven't had any time to work on them for the last couple weeks, so I haven't completed the process or seen the final product.  I hope to sand them this weekend and be ready to spray next weekend.  More as time allows.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 22 Mar 2017, 02:01 am
Ed,

Thanks. I'm going to give it a try. On my current project I am using Old Masters Water Based Spar Urethane. With this I have to sand between each coat and pot time is 2 hours so I have to clean the gun between each coat as well.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 8 Apr 2017, 09:34 pm
After a brief hiatus I was able to work on the speakers a bit today, they are now sanded and ready for another topcoat.  Jay, it took me about 3 seconds to see what you warned me about, I burned right through on a high spot. 

I am going to tint the next topcoat and even the pieces out a bit, then several more clear topcoats.

I am starting to understand why the high gloss speaker posted earlier in the thread took 40 coats, I will not be able to go that far, this Burl has a lot of "character", it would take many many coats to get to that level of finish.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Apr 2017, 07:53 pm
Yeah, it happens  very quickly  on high spots and edges.   I like to block sand the entire cabinet before I start applying anything  (after veneering) to try and have a nice level surface to finish on.

It's always tricky  when  dealing witha   "colord' surface (tinted/dyed etc) as  burn thourgh can  make it tough to  get a nice even tone again. With natural, it's no big deal

I've been listening to a pair of these combined with a pair of  dual h-frames for about a week now  ,  i think you  are going to be  pretty happy when you're done 

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ACHiPo on 10 Apr 2017, 07:04 pm
After a brief hiatus I was able to work on the speakers a bit today, they are now sanded and ready for another topcoat.  Jay, it took me about 3 seconds to see what you warned me about, I burned right through on a high spot. 

I am going to tint the next topcoat and even the pieces out a bit, then several more clear topcoats.

I am starting to understand why the high gloss speaker posted earlier in the thread took 40 coats, I will not be able to go that far, this Burl has a lot of "character", it would take many many coats to get to that level of finish.

Best,
Ed
Ed,
After about 50 coats of shellac and flattening, I finally got around to trying pore filler (I used Crystalac)--makes things go MUCH faster.  Unfortunately I ran out of patience and stopped before I got a truly defect-free finish (had I started with Crystalac it probably would have only taken 5-6 coats), but my turntable still looks pretty good.  I also had a recommendation to use Behlens Wool Lube, but I didn't receive it until after I gave up on the finish and put my 'table to work.

AC
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 29 Apr 2017, 07:30 pm
Thanks Jay, I am anxious to get these finished so I can hear them.

AC, I had a quart of the Crystalac here but decided not to use it, I might try it next time. :duh:

I mixed Transtint into my topcoat to even out the individual pieces, this worked out pretty well.  I have another gallon on order for the remaining clear coats.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161565)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161564)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 20 May 2017, 07:41 pm
Haven't posted here lately, there hasn't been much to see.  I have just completed my 3rd course of flattening using 400 grit.  To date I have gone through 1.5 gallons of EM6000, I have nothing to really compare to personally, but that seems like a lot of material, there have been about 17-18 coats, I lost count.   It is about as close as I am going to get it, so my hope is that the last .5 gallons will carry through to completion. 

I tried the Crystalac on one interior panel, it did a reasonable job of filling in the cracks in the grain, cracks possibly a little larger than what it was made for, compared to oak for instance.  It took several coats and sanded clear, in the end I decided to let the imperfections in the veneer live on.

For those still playing along, here they are after the last sanding, will apply a couple of coats today and hope to finish with the last coats tomorrow.  Hopefully buffing out next weekend.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162620)



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162619)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: DeeJayBump on 20 May 2017, 07:53 pm
Fantastic journey. Thanks for sharing it with us, Ed.

Looking forward to seeing finished product.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 20 May 2017, 08:11 pm
Ed

Looking good

I'm going to try the EM7000 high build lacquer next for that very reason. Fewer coats needed

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 21 May 2017, 02:54 am
I've long held that the finishing is at least half the build time when one is doing something special like these. Almost makes the woodwork look easy, eh?

They look good from here, are you pleased with the outcome, Ed?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 21 May 2017, 04:41 pm
Fantastic journey. Thanks for sharing it with us, Ed.

Looking forward to seeing finished product.

Thanks DJB, happy to do it.  I can't wait to get tunes playing through them.

Ed

Looking good

I'm going to try the EM7000 high build lacquer next for that very reason. Fewer coats needed

Mike

Thanks Mike.  I considered th EM 7000 for the second gallon of this project, but I decided to stay with the 6000.  I am anxious to read your thoughts on the 7000, it would have been nice to use fewer coats and possibly have it fill in veneer imperfections more quickly.

I've long held that the finishing is at least half the build time when one is doing something special like these. Almost makes the woodwork look easy, eh?

They look good from here, are you pleased with the outcome, Ed?

Hi Peter, yes, that has been the case with these. I have learned a lot through the process, I believe I can save myself some time on future builds, but yes very time consuming.

They have flattened out quite a bit although not perfect. They will level out more with these last few coats and light sanding.  Something occurred to me after doing the last sanding, using an 11" piece of 1"x2" as a sanding block has probably slowed my progress versus using a smaller block that would not require as wide an area to be flat.  They are looking good, another coat or two and I am going to call it done, then on to my next new adventure, buffing out the finish! :lol:

I have been having an issue with my gun the last two coats, maybe someone here can offer a solution.  The gun was taken apart and cleaned prior to each time the problem occurred.  After spraying each of the last coats, when I tear the gun down I find dried material that looks like spiraled cellophane.  This has impacted the spray negatively.  There is not much to the sprayer, Wagner Control Spray Max, only about 6 pieces if you count the handle, plus the air supply.  It worked well the first gallon, no issue.  I can't imagine there being a difference in the material that could cause something like this, more likely I am doing something wrong, but I can't imagine what it would be.

This is where we are with the last two coats:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162650)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162651)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 21 May 2017, 05:17 pm
Ed, I don't know this gun, but will see if I can find an exploded view. Where are you finding the spirals? About the only thing that could create spirals (because of shape) would be the needle, methinks, but that would be a new one for me. This has a self contained turbine, right?

I found an exploded view, it doesn't look like this has a needle that stops against the nozzle orifice.

Do the spirals appear to be ribbons of dried finish?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 21 May 2017, 05:35 pm
Peter, this is an exploded view:  http://www.ereplacementparts.com/wagner-control-spray-max-0518604-fine-finishing-sprayer-parts-c-139698_139700_184190.html

The cellophane is in the main body top air path around the needle, I wonder if the nozzle seal could be leaking after I removed it to wash it out, if it was spraying inside the air path the turbulent air could make that happen I suppose. This is a pic of the cellophane and where I found it in the gun:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162656)

What do you think?

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 21 May 2017, 05:55 pm
I think I'd agree about an internal leak. I'm guessing the air would be spiraling because of turbine output and hence finish would follow path. I know latex paint is really abrasive, I wonder if this finish could be similar. Looks like needle and nozzle are plastic which I imagine could be susceptible to abrasion. That would also make sense from a timing standpoint. It didn't leak at first, but now does.

Look closely at the needle and where it seats, magnifying  glass might help. It's possible the only fix would be new parts.

FWIW, I have a steel needle and nozzle that I took out of good Sharpe gun. The needle has a very visible shoulder that was the result of shooting latex paint. Surprised me.

Edited to add.

That, I'm assuming, is tinted finish, correct? When I'm tinting clear, I typically finish up with clear finish, no tint. It would be easier to touch up later if you have to.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 21 May 2017, 06:03 pm
It might also be possible to "seat" the needle. Years ago one could by and abrasive paste to do finish lapping on valve seats in engines, but I haven't looked for it in years. Maybe some gritty toothpaste or ??? and you could lap the needle to nozzle.

Still exists, what did we do before Google!?

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1419009&KPID=1188648&cid=CAPLA:G:Shopping_-_Catch_All_-_DT_-_RLSA&pla=pla_1188648&k_clickid=39c08f05-5075-4da9-b6e2-b86078702ab8
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 21 May 2017, 06:15 pm
Thanks for the input Peter.  I think I will pickup a new nozzle seal and nozzle and see if that takes care of it.  Yes, the last few coats have been tinted, the last couple are going to be clear.  They won't happen today, I'm going to order the parts so hopefully the gun is working at its best the final coats.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 24 May 2017, 03:46 pm
Somehow I missed your update Ed but,  they look like they have come a long way,  going to be  gorgeous
Hope you get  your gun issue  straightened out  and get  those final cots laid on soon.  the black and copper of the NQ's is going to add another dimension  to these   :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 29 May 2017, 05:39 pm
Hey Jay, you didn't miss much  :D. 

I decided to flatten one more time, the weather was great so I did the sanding outside, much easier to see what needs additional sanding.  This time I used a small rubber block, I believe this was an improvement as compared to the 11" block I was using previously.

My parts for the sprayer arrived Saturday, I had two more tinted coats to apply, although the cellophane in the air path still occurred it was to a lesser degree.  The odd thing was that the final 3 clear coats did not have the cellophane type buildup, no issue at all.

The spraying is complete, I am quite happy with the end result.  I will buff them out but need to wait about 10 days or so.  In the meantime I will apply the Duratex to the bottoms of the bass cabs, center piece and MTMs.

Here they are today:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163038)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163040)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163037)

As is evident, my photography skills are lacking, I took one of the speakers outside to see if it helped:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163041)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163042)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163043)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163044)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163045)

So no, taking them outside didn't help much :lol:.  Although you can't tell from the pics, the detail in the Burl shows through in a cool way, I believe buffing them out will improve the look.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: cody69 on 29 May 2017, 07:57 pm
Ed, these are looking great. Have enjoyed your journey with this build, and eagerly await your reaction to the finished product.
What you're doing takes a lot of patience and care... something we only do for ourselves!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: gregfisk on 31 May 2017, 12:29 am
Those are looking really good Ed, it's not easy getting the look you want but looks like you're on your way.

I really like your color choice and bet they will look great buffed out.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Early B. on 31 May 2017, 02:08 am
A true audiophile -- focused more on aesthetics than the sound.   :lol:

They look awesome, BTW. You ought to consider building matching furniture. I'm sure that thought has crossed your mind.

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 31 May 2017, 02:34 am
A true audiophile -- focused more on aesthetics than the sound.   :lol:

They look awesome, BTW. You ought to consider building matching furniture. I'm sure that thought has crossed your mind.

A Red room??? Nice as an accent color but too much would drive me bonkers  :dunno:

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Early B. on 31 May 2017, 02:41 am
A Red room???

Nah. Just a piece or two of furniture -- like a coffee table or two end tables in the same wood and matching color.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: jseipp on 31 May 2017, 02:55 am
Those are amazing!!  Thank you Ed for taking and sharing the journey, and thank you all for sharing your knowledge and wisdom; I have learned so much.

It's very cool that you achieved the red you were after; your dedication to your vision is pure inspiration. You've pieces to be extremely proud of.... :D :D :D :D !!!!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 31 May 2017, 02:56 am
Thanks guys, I am looking forward to getting them playing.

A true audiophile -- focused more on aesthetics than the sound.   :lol:
Hey early, I had the same thought cross my mind  :lol:.  If I didn't already have a great pair of speakers I would not have the patience to work on these as long as I have.

Best,
Ed

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 2 Jun 2017, 11:48 pm
Ed, they are really turning out nice. The veneer in the waveguide is so dang unique, I freakin' love it.  I've got to add that to my bucket list.

How are others in the household doing with the commandeering of the garage as spray booth?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 3 Jun 2017, 12:15 am
Ed, they are really turning out nice. The veneer in the waveguide is so dang unique, I freakin' love it.  I've got to add that to my bucket list.

How are others in the household doing with the commandeering of the garage as spray booth?

Thanks Peter.

It's my side of the garage, so I'm parked outside, she is still inside, no issue there. The mess is another matter but she is fairly tolerant.  The EM6000 doesn't have any smell to speak of, so no issue there.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 3 Jun 2017, 03:12 am
Ed, they are really turning out nice. The veneer in the waveguide is so dang unique, I freakin' love it.  I've got to add that to my bucket list.

How are others in the household doing with the commandeering of the garage as spray booth?

I have commandeered the garage but it is where I house all my tools. I have to roll them out into the driveway to use them, not enough space in the garage.

For a spray booth I have an easy-up style shelter with the sides closed in with plastic set up in the driveway. Far from ideal but better than trying to spray in the open air.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 3 Jun 2017, 11:23 pm
Applied Duratex to the bottoms of each piece and the top inset area of the middle pieces.  This was the first time I have used Duratex, I really like the way it goes on and looks.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163326)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163327)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163328)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 11 Jun 2017, 01:50 am
I worked on buffing out a test panel today.  I started with a interior wing so if something went wrong it would be covered with no-Rez anyway.  I started at 800 grit followed by 1500 and 2000.  I then used a wool bonnet on my orbital sander to buff it out with Meguires Mirror Glaze fine cut cleaner.  I am very happy with the result.  The veneer has small cracks in the grain that I opted not to fill, this shows at certain angles but I am good with that, it is wood.  I hope to finish the rest tomorrow.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163735)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163737)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: jimbones on 11 Jun 2017, 03:14 am
Bravo, nice work!!  :bounce:
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: bdp24 on 11 Jun 2017, 02:32 pm
Wow. Better than Wilson. And BMW!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 11 Jun 2017, 05:37 pm
That's just cool, Ed. And not just the finish on the speakers. Seems to me you persevered and now have something to remind you of that endeavor, which is at least as important as the music side of things.

Kudos...and enjoy. I guess you've got some cutting and buffing distance to go yet, but hopefully that's done in a Zen sort of way!

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 11 Jun 2017, 11:39 pm
Bravo, nice work!!  :bounce:
Thanks Jim, still a way to go .

Wow. Better than Wilson. And BMW!
Thanks bdp, it's as least as good as a first attempt by a finishing newby  :lol:.
That's just cool, Ed. And not just the finish on the speakers. Seems to me you persevered and now have something to remind you of that endeavor, which is at least as important as the music side of things.

Kudos...and enjoy. I guess you've got some cutting and buffing distance to go yet, but hopefully that's done in a Zen sort of way!


Thanks Peter, it has been a bit of a journey, I have learned a lot.  It appears I underestimated how long it would take to buff one out ( no kidding most of you are probably thinking  :lol:), I managed to get one speaker completed.  They really flattened out well, the first panel had the most cracks in the grain so far. This is how the left speaker turned out:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163766)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163767)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163768)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163769)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163770)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=163771)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 12 Jun 2017, 03:01 pm
wow  Ed :o  You've done a fantastic job on these, I know how much time and effort you've  put into t them but look at your  resluts   :thumb:  Wish I could see them  in person

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: gmurray618 on 13 Jun 2017, 06:46 pm
Spectacular.
Absolutely beautiful.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: cody69 on 13 Jun 2017, 09:47 pm
Labor of love Ed. Turned out amazing.
And the attention to details... such as veneering the waveguide, finishing technique, etc., make all the difference.
Well done!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Jun 2017, 12:24 am
Thanks guys, I am pretty happy with the way they have turned out.

I picked up some Meguiars Polish, I want to see if that adds any additional clarity and sheen.  I hope to make more progress this weekend, I did manage to get one of the grills made.  Here is the left speaker with the grill, Herbies square fat dots between the bass unit and the center piece with the entire speaker sitting on Herbies giant fat gliders:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164056)



Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 17 Jun 2017, 01:08 am
Ed, I'm not sure if this  will help , maybe someone else can chime in  with more details ...
when our painter does final polishing on our cabinets, he  does it in  3 different stages with 3 different compunds and of course, 3 different  pads on the buffer..   Then  when he is happy, he finishes it all off with a high quality wax.  I've watched him  a couple times and it's pretty amazing  watching the  progress as he moves through the different compunds.  The  sad part is, dust, finger prints, pretty much  anything  immediately shows up , it was painfully apparent on the  piano black duals we did.
Hoping that  with the  burl you've used,  these little  things   that stand out on a  high gloss solid color may  not be   as obvious for you.
Keep the pics coming  over the weekend if you  have   time  :)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: lacro on 17 Jun 2017, 03:02 pm
Jay's correct, multiple stage polishing really brings out that mirror finish. I just finished doing both my black vehicles which took me a couple weeks to finish :roll:. Each step adds more shine/clarity. The pad also determines the level of cut. You can use a different pad with the same polish and get different results. Not sure which Meguires polish you have, but I used Meguires M205 (pro line product)with a soft foam pad (very low cut), and followed it with Meguires Ultimate Polish (consumer line), again with a soft foam pad. UP is a super fine polish/glaze, and leaves a really nice super high sheen finish with a lot of depth. I use a DA polisher. Depending on how hard/soft your finish is, the pad, and polish needed to get the best result is trial and error. A final coat of wax will give the finish a bit more shine and depth.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Jun 2017, 05:50 pm
Thanks Jay/ Lacro, that is essentially what I am doing only it is two step followed by wax.  I sanded with 800/1500/2000 and followed that with Meguiars #2 fine cut (based on a recommendation for use with EM6000). I bought Meguiars Ultimate polish to follow the #2 fine cut , I also picked up a can of Johnsons paste wax to apply after the polish.  I used a wool pad on my random orbit sander for the left speaker, I decided to try a random orbit buffer, I picked one up at autozone.  The buffer came with microfiber pads, so I will give those a shot.

At the rate I am progressing, I hope to be listening to these sometime the week of the 4th, I am on vacation that week.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: jimbones on 17 Jun 2017, 05:52 pm
Very nice, props to you on doing such a great job  :bowdown:
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Jun 2017, 06:10 pm
Very nice, props to you on doing such a great job  :bowdown:
Thanks Jim, but there are plenty of flaws. I will be touching up several edges where I was too aggressive when sanding.  I am leaning that a big part of finishing is not screwing up what you have already done.  I wish I was a little quicker on the uptake, maybe I would be doing less touch up. :lol: 

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 17 Jun 2017, 07:52 pm
Ed,

Looking good  :thumb:

Be sure the paste wax you use is for a gloss finish.

I used to think all paste waxes provided a glossy finish but found out differently after applying Johnson's to an Arm R Seal gloss finish. The sheen was duller than before the polish. I read the information on the can closer and found out that wax imparted a "satin luster". I then closely read the information on a can of Renaissance wax I use frequently on wooden flutes (mainly oil finishes) and found out it also imparts a "soft sheen"

I started searching locally and found one wax, Meguiar's Ultimate, that specifically says it is for use on glossy finishes and not to be used on flat, matte or satin finishes.

I stripped the Johnson's off (mineral spirits, followed by naptha, finishing up with a 50% alcohol solution) and applied the Meguiar's Ultimate. This resulted in a nice glossy finish.

Mike



Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Jun 2017, 08:05 pm
Ed,

Looking good  :thumb:

Be sure the paste wax you use is for a gloss finish.

I used to think all paste waxes provided a glossy finish but found out differently after applying Johnson's to an Arm R Seal gloss finish. The sheen was duller than before the polish. I read the information on the can closer and found out that wax imparted a "satin luster". I then closely read the information on a can of Renaissance wax I use frequently on wooden flutes (mainly oil finishes) and found out it also imparts a "soft sheen"

I started searching locally and found one wax, Meguiar's Ultimate, that specifically says it is for use on glossy finishes and not to be used on flat, matte or satin finishes.

I stripped the Johnson's off (mineral spirits, followed by naptha, finishing up with a 50% alcohol solution) and applied the Meguiar's Ultimate. This resulted in a nice glossy finish.

Mike
Thanks for that Mike, "rich satiny luster" is what it says on the Johnsons wax.  You saved me a lot of effort with that info.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: lacro on 18 Jun 2017, 02:06 pm
Ed,

Looking good  :thumb:

Be sure the paste wax you use is for a gloss finish.

I used to think all paste waxes provided a glossy finish but found out differently after applying Johnson's to an Arm R Seal gloss finish. The sheen was duller than before the polish. I read the information on the can closer and found out that wax imparted a "satin luster". I then closely read the information on a can of Renaissance wax I use frequently on wooden flutes (mainly oil finishes) and found out it also imparts a "soft sheen"

I started searching locally and found one wax, Meguiar's Ultimate, that specifically says it is for use on glossy finishes and not to be used on flat, matte or satin finishes.

I stripped the Johnson's off (mineral spirits, followed by naptha, finishing up with a 50% alcohol solution) and applied the Meguiar's Ultimate. This resulted in a nice glossy finish.

Mike

Mike, I agree about the softer sheen with Johnson's. I had the same experience. Be careful with 50% alcohol solution, that is pretty HOT for most finishes even automotive clearcoat. I think the mineral spirits is the best, readily available (safe) choice for removing wax.

[url][https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/31183-how-mix-ipa-inspecting-correction-results.html/url]

The Meguires Ultimate line are pretty good consumer/DIYer products. I haven't used Ultimate wax, but it seems to get good reviews. For automotive wax I like FK1000, and Collinite 845 for their protection/longevity on auto paint. For the absolute easiest to use product, I really like Meguires M20 polymer sealant. It goes on easy, comes off even easier, and doesn't stain plastic - and it leaves a super glossy finish. It's the perfect lazy mans final finish. Whatever product is used it should probably be pre-tested on an inconspicuous area  for compatibility with furniture finishes. Also, with most automotive waxes, "less is more" is good practice. Use a small amount of wax to the point it almost looks like there is nothing there.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: LittleWoodenBoy on 18 Jun 2017, 03:01 pm
Nu Finish, that once a year polish in the orange bottle works great for a high gloss finish. I stopped using it in the shop because it has silicone in it, as do all (nearly all) car polishes.  That's not a problem for your speakers, but can be a problem down the road for future projects as the silicone contaminates can mess up the finish on future projects.  The Nu Finish people say it's not an issue with modern materials, but I'm paranoid.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 23 Jun 2017, 02:31 am
I watched a YouTube video showing how to apply the Meguiar's Ultimate Polish and picked up a foam bonnet for my polisher buffer.  I don't know if the difference is the foam vs wool/microfiber or adjusting my technique, but I am a very happy camper!  The polish gave me the clear deep shine I was seeing glimpses of, the speaker looks better than I had hoped.  I can't get the pics to show what I am seeing, but I gave it a shot (see below), the Burl has a great glow and depth.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164328)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164339)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164340)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164341)


On to waxing!

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 23 Jun 2017, 04:12 am
Ed,

Those look awsome  :thumb:

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 23 Jun 2017, 04:25 am
Ed,

Those look awsome  :thumb:

Mike
Thanks Mike, I am pretty happy with them, now to finish the other one.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: lacro on 23 Jun 2017, 02:58 pm
Ed,
That came out really nice. Glad the Ultimate Polish worked for you. Now you can do your car with it  :)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 29 Jun 2017, 01:45 am
Ed,
That came out really nice. Glad the Ultimate Polish worked for you. Now you can do your car with it  :)
Thanks Lacro, I decided to proceed with the ultimate wax.

I haven't made any progress but the wax arrived so I made time to wax the MTM and the middle section.  I mounted the drivers, this is what they will look like finished.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164643)

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Jun 2017, 02:03 am
Suhweet! :thumb:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 29 Jun 2017, 02:47 am
Home run Ed  :thumb:

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: gregfisk on 29 Jun 2017, 05:37 am
Ed,

Those look fantastic!!! If I were you I would be very proud of what you ended up with.

I hope you enjoy them!

Greg
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 30 Jun 2017, 12:57 am
Thanks guys, I hope to be listening to them this time next week.  I am happy with the way they turned out, but if doing it again I would definitely go with a veneer that has less character if working towards a high gloss finish. 

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Jun 2017, 04:29 pm
Awsome man  :thumb: :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 5 Jul 2017, 09:10 pm
Awsome man  :thumb: :thumb:

jay
Thanks Jay, I am pretty happy with them, especially since they are now playing!! :thumb:

They are complete minus NoRez.  I just realized this morning I have less than half of what I need, I will do that when I can start and finish it.

I wanted to thank everyone who participated in this thread for sharing your experience and know how.  The support offered in this thread and on Audio Circle over the years is priceless.  This project was improved (imho) through the support and ideas offered in this thread.

Here are pics of them as they were being finished , this will be the end of the pics unless someone wants to see the NoRez , for that I would recommend going to Peter's Otica build, that's what I will be attempting.  These get heavy enough that I install drivers in them on the floor they will live, that is why I am working in the great room.

I will be commenting on sound once they have several hours on them.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165035)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165017)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165018)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165019)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165020)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165021)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165022)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165023)

They are sitting on 4 Herbies giant gliders ea., Herbies tenderfeet are between the bass base and the center crossover section, the MTM is sitting on some 1/8th inch thick sorbethane that is attached to the center section, the sorbethane is sticky and keeps the MTM from moving.

Best,
Ed

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165024)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Jul 2017, 09:38 pm
Ed,

Absolutely beautiful.

The No-Rez will make a big difference in the sound. The MTM's had a cavernous sound to them in my room before installing the No-Rez. I found putting a piece on the bottom in addition to the large wing was beneficial in taming that undesirable sound.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165032)


With the bottom piece you can try before you buy. Set them in place without peeling the backing off. If you like the sound, then peel and stick. If not, remove the piece of No-Rez and keep the bottom shiny.

No-Rez won't stick well to the finished lacquer. It will keep pulling loose. I scuff sanded the areas where I put the No-Rez with P600 sandpaper (~ANSI 400 grit). If you have applied wax, remove that with mineral spirits before sanding.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 5 Jul 2017, 10:24 pm
Ed,

Absolutely beautiful.

The No-Rez will make a big difference in the sound. The MTM's had a cavernous sound to them in my room before installing the No-Rez. I found putting a piece on the bottom in addition to the large wing was beneficial in taming that undesirable sound.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165032)

With the bottom piece you can try before you buy. Set them in place without peeling the backing off. If you like the sound, then peel and stick. If not, remove the piece of No-Rez and keep the bottom shiny.

No-Rez won't stick well to the finished lacquer. It will keep pulling loose. I scuff sanded the areas where I put the No-Rez with P600 sandpaper (~ANSI 400 grit). If you have applied wax, remove that with mineral spirits before sanding.

Mike

Thanks Mike.  Yes, of course I waxed the interior side and bottom  :duh: :lol:

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: DeeJayBump on 6 Jul 2017, 12:32 am
Ed-

These came out amazing. Thanks for sharing the journey with us and happy listening.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 6 Jul 2017, 01:29 am
Cool  8)  Happy listening   man. 
I've got   a  couple hundred hours on a pair of mztm's  up here now and they've really come around, think  you'll   really enjoy them Ed
Again,  enjoy !

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: zybar on 6 Jul 2017, 02:47 am
Awesome job Ed!!

There are quite a few speaker manufacturers that could learn a thing or two from you!!

George
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Peter J on 6 Jul 2017, 03:59 pm
They're so shiny!

Well done, Ed. I'd be proud to have those in the house.

There is a downside though. Seeing these sparks a flame in me to build yet another pair of speakers...

I guess it never ends.

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 6 Jul 2017, 06:25 pm
Thanks guys, I appreciate you sticking with it throughout this entirely too long thread. :thumb:

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Odal3 on 6 Jul 2017, 06:25 pm
Wow - those look really really nice  :thumb:
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Bob in St. Louis on 7 Jul 2017, 02:28 am
Ed, I sincerely wish I would have had the pleasure of following this thread from day one. I'm sad I just now found it (through the "Let's see your OB thread").
Honestly, I just now skimmed the first page, then jumped to the last page to comment, I hope to find the time to catch up.

In the first post, you said the burl veneer was "this is a plane tree burl".
This looks a LOT like a Pelin Burl build I did. Is that what it is?

Anyway, I'd like to complement you on a beautiful build. Well done Sir!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 7 Jul 2017, 02:43 pm
They're so shiny!

Well done, Ed. I'd be proud to have those in the house.

There is a downside though. Seeing these sparks a flame in me to build yet another pair of speakers...

I guess it never ends.

You're right Peter, it's terminal  :lol:

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 9 Jul 2017, 02:30 am
Thanks guys.

I wanted to give a brief update on the sound.  I have them breaking in on the Folsom amp I built last year, great synergy here, really excellent pairing, makes me wonder if Danny voiced these speakers using his little chip amps.

Sometime after 50 hrs the speakers bloomed, they are sounding fantastic, similar to the Wedgie but more weight and more dynamic.  More later.

Best,
Ed

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2017, 02:33 am
I use the little chip amps most of the time now.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Jul 2017, 04:34 am
Hey, not sure if you  guys flipped the wiring  in the netowrks  or not but,   the  tweeter should be wired   out of phase,   in the pics , it look s like you've got red to + ( if you flipped wiring inthe network, that's fine , but if not,    they need to be reversed).  Good catch Don :beer:

Also driving the pair here with a chip amp, one of the Folsom 7297/Antiopole  setups,  upgraded caps, wire,  and a Lundahl trans

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 9 Jul 2017, 05:44 am
Hey, not sure if you  guys flipped the wiring  in the netowrks  or not but,   the  tweeter should be wired   out of phase,   in the pics , it look s like you've got red to + ( if you flipped wiring inthe network, that's fine , but if not,    they need to be reversed).  Good catch Don :beer:

Also driving the pair here with a chip amp, one of the Folsom 7297/Antiopole  setups,  upgraded caps, wire,  and a Lundahl trans

jay
Thanks for the heads up Jay/Don, but yes, I changed color in the network wiring.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Jul 2017, 06:27 am
Just wanted to be sure  !
Had I not been so lazy, I'd have gone back  and  actuallyre-visited the pics  :)

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 9 Jul 2017, 07:07 am
I built my networks externally so I can switch the phase at the network. That said I forgot about that little fact when I set the speakers back up after the show. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why they sounded so much better at the show.  :duh:

I'm going to reverse the wires at the driver because I know the next time I take them apart I'll forget to switch the phase when I reconnect the network.

At least now the image is properly centered and staying there and voices are back up to a normal height rather than too low.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: lacro on 9 Jul 2017, 01:03 pm
Also driving the pair here with a chip amp, one of the Folsom 7297/Antiopole  setups,  upgraded caps, wire,  and a Lundahl trans

jay

Jay, Did you finally add the Lundahl transformer to your amp build?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Jul 2017, 05:14 pm
Jay, Did you finally add the Lundahl transformer to your amp build?

hey Larry,,   yeah I did,  I actually thought I had sent yo uan email about it but obiously not  :duh:
Still not in a proper case, just  a bigger test board.... got tired of seeing the  Antipole and Lundahl trans sitting on the shelf . It's a pretty amazing little amp,  not quite as dimensional as the  6C33C mono's but awfully close.

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 9 Jul 2017, 09:14 pm
Hey, not sure if you  guys flipped the wiring  in the netowrks  or not but,   the  tweeter should be wired   out of phase,   in the pics , it look s like you've got red to + ( if you flipped wiring inthe network, that's fine , but if not,    they need to be reversed).  Good catch Don :beer:

Also driving the pair here with a chip amp, one of the Folsom 7297/Antiopole  setups,  upgraded caps, wire,  and a Lundahl trans

jay

Jay,

What caps, wire and transformer did you use?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Jul 2017, 09:44 pm
Mike,
I used 1 uF  sonicaps bypassed with .022 Jupiter Coppers as input caps.
All  the PS caps are  the optional Nichions speced in the BOM.
transformer is a Lundahl  ll1928, parallel the inputs and outputs, plus there   is a   pair of   10v outputs you can use for   something  else ?    Sent on to Larry too and he was able to use the  10v outputs  to power a DAC.
Wire  was  the 24 ga solid core Neotech  from Zenwave  for inputs, some mil spec  silver coated copper for  outputs,  and a mix of   Neotech 16 ga OCC copper and  danny's wire  for PS / Antipole.  Once I put it all in a case,  I'll likely replace it all with the Neotech in various  gauges

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 11 Jul 2017, 12:59 am
Ed, I sincerely wish I would have had the pleasure of following this thread from day one. I'm sad I just now found it (through the "Let's see your OB thread").
Honestly, I just now skimmed the first page, then jumped to the last page to comment, I hope to find the time to catch up.

In the first post, you said the burl veneer was "this is a plane tree burl".
This looks a LOT like a Pelin Burl build I did. Is that what it is?

Anyway, I'd like to complement you on a beautiful build. Well done Sir!  :thumb:
Hey Bob, sorry I missed your question.  I read that the Plane Tree is related to the Sycamore, I am not familiar with the Pelin Burl.  I now know that if want a highly reflective finish I should start with something a little more smooth and defect free than a Burl, at least that is the conclusion I have drawn from this experience.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Plund on 14 Jul 2017, 02:30 am
Ed, Very sad to see that you have placed yourself in such a terrible predicament!  With this extremely nice looking build and sound quality to match, you may have a difficult time bettering these on your next build...so sorry!  Congratulations!

Pete
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 14 Jul 2017, 04:38 am
Ed, Very sad to see that you have placed yourself in such a terrible predicament!  With this extremely nice looking build and sound quality to match, you may have a difficult time bettering these on your next build...so sorry!  Congratulations!

Pete
:lol: Thanks Pete, I'll try to muddle through. :wink:.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: gregfisk on 14 Jul 2017, 05:41 am
Ed, Very sad to see that you have placed yourself in such a terrible predicament!  With this extremely nice looking build and sound quality to match, you may have a difficult time bettering these on your next build...so sorry!  Congratulations!

Pete

Very funny Pete, Ed is a master builder for sure.

Greg
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: lacro on 14 Jul 2017, 02:37 pm
Thanks guys.

I wanted to give a brief update on the sound.  I have them breaking in on the Folsom amp I built last year, great synergy here, really excellent pairing, makes me wonder if Danny voiced these speakers using his little chip amps.

Sometime after 50 hrs the speakers bloomed, they are sounding fantastic, similar to the Wedgie but more weight and more dynamic.  More later.

Best,
Ed

FYI: If anyone is interested in trying the Folsom chip amp, there is currently a group buy over at DIY Audio for the amp, and power supply PCB's. These easy to build, inexpensive little chip amps do very well driving GR Research speakers. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/309860-folsom-diy7297-amp-antipole-psu.html#post5128286 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/309860-folsom-diy7297-amp-antipole-psu.html#post5128286)

Here's Captainhemo's Folsom amp board with some upgrades:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165473)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: limits on 14 Jul 2017, 03:13 pm
...A few questions for Jay and Larry, if I may  :D --where did you source the Jupiter caps? Have you heard the amp both with the Nichicon and the Panasonic oscons? Did you notice a difference between the two? I think Jeremy mentioned in his original documentation that the Panasonics were a little more laid back (which I would prefer). Just wondering if you heard both...

Larry--masterful job on building up that amp!! It would seem a shame to hide it away in a case  :thumb:

limits
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: lacro on 15 Jul 2017, 01:19 pm
Ed: Apologizes for hijacking your build thread.....


Limits: PM sent
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: gmurray618 on 16 Jul 2017, 11:47 pm
Thanks for the tip lacro

I just ordered the boards. 
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ACHiPo on 23 Jul 2017, 11:37 pm
Ed,
I haven't checked this for a while.  Outstanding work!  Can't wait to hear how they sound!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 26 Jul 2017, 05:15 pm
Ed,
I haven't checked this for a while.  Outstanding work!  Can't wait to hear how they sound!
Thanks AC!  They are sounding very good, I am approaching 200 hrs so they should be broken in or very close.  I am playing with room position and REW, once I have that locked down I will report back on the sound.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 29 Jul 2017, 04:26 pm
I have been trying out amps for a system I am putting together for my son (4 guys in a house with 2 dogs don't need to deal with the Bottlehead I build for the V1s).  I decided to order a PS Audio Sprout.  I recieved it yesterday and plugged it into the NX Oticas.  The Oticas like the additional power (32watts @ 8ohms), this sounds fantastic !

I am very impressed with this compact unit from PSAudio.  It is the first PS Audio product I have heard, I really like it.  The unit has an amp, Bluetooth (outstanding sound and coverage, much better than I would have guessed, this will be the primary way it will be used streaming Tidal from his phone), USB/Coax Wolfson DAC, analog in and out via 3.5mm jacks (output is volume controlled, using for the servo amps) and a phono amp.  Super simple single box solution, perfect for his situation.  If the DAC would do DSD and had remote control I would buy one for myself, for my son's needs he doesn't require DSD and with Bluetooth you can control volume from your phone.

The Oticas now have over 200 hrs on them and are sounding great.  I am getting them tweaked out using REW.  Settings and locations are changing as compared to the V1s, I am attributing this to the servo drivers all facing forward as opposed to the V1s where the servo drivers were facing opposite each other.  The Oticas playing lower than the coax of the V1 may play a role in the differences as well.  I have a bit of a suck out at 70hz that I am working with currently, I seem to recall seeing this with the V1s, I managed to eliminate the suck out but in doing so I had a boost around 40 Hz which I considered the lesser of two evils.

I am going to be changing some things around in my room, replacing my parabolic diffuser with some PI Audio diffusers I have had a while and can finally spray (latex paint only) now that I have a spray setup.  I am going to get that completed as well as ceiling absorption (hopefully) before I spend too much more time with REW.

More later.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 29 Jul 2017, 05:09 pm
Ed,

Any impressions of NX-Otica vs Wedgie?

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 29 Jul 2017, 05:21 pm
Ed,

Any impressions of NX-Otica vs Wedgie?

Mike
Hi Mike,
I haven't listened to the Wedgies for a while, I was running in the V1s for a few weeks getting them ready for my son prior to finishing the Oticas.  I will be able to go from the wedgie to the Otica with a cable swap once I get everything where it belongs.  From memory the Wedgies image and soundstage better than the Oticas, the way I have the Oticas set up at the moment anyway.  They sound more similar than different based on audio memory.  It may be a bit before I can do any type of reasonable comparison due to college graduation and other family obligations.  I can offer this, the Wedgies are not embarrassed by the Oticas (of course you already know this  :thumb:) and I like the servos drivers facing forward better than opposite.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 29 Jul 2017, 07:45 pm
Hi Mike,
I haven't listened to the Wedgies for a while, I was running in the V1s for a few weeks getting them ready for my son prior to finishing the Oticas.  I will be able to go from the wedgie to the Otica with a cable swap once I get everything where it belongs.  From memory the Wedgies image and soundstage better than the Oticas, the way I have the Oticas set up at the moment anyway.  They sound more similar than different based on audio memory.  It may be a bit before I can do any type of reasonable comparison due to college graduation and other family obligations.  I can offer this, the Wedgies are not embarrassed by the Oticas (of course you already know this  :thumb:) and I like the servos drivers facing forward better than opposite.

Best,
Ed

Ed,

My initial impressions were along the same lines. The Oticas are fuller in the midrange but the Wedgies imaged a little better. There was also something else about the Wedgies I liked but couldn't put my finger on it well enough to describe it. The Wedgies were also easier to get set up in my small 11' x 13' x 8' room.

The Oticas can almost be too much in my room but boy did they show off in the larger room I had at LSAF in May.

I haven't listened to my Wedgies since April. I wanted to get a good feel for the Oticas before doing any comparison again. I was unsure how much my familiarity with the Wedgies (had been listening to them over a year) combined with unfamiliarity of the new Oticas was affecting my impressions.

Remember, when comparing the two it isn't going to be as easy as a cable swap. You have to adjust the subs to compensate for the Wedgies 200Hz rolloff vs the Oticas 100Hz. I'm going to use Chuck's record sheets to record the sub control positions for Oticas and Wedgies. That should cut down the amount of time needed to swap from one to the other but it still won't be a fast A/B.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Jul 2017, 07:55 pm
If you guys make some comparisons start a new thread for it.
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 29 Jul 2017, 10:08 pm
If you guys make some comparisons start a new thread for it.

Will do
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 7 Aug 2017, 03:16 am
Because my room is small, I decided to mount my servo amps in the ends of a new stand to save space, and because my room is small I am able to do that and keep the connections short.

I am really enjoying the NX Oticas, I continue to tweak the bass and speaker positions.

More later.

Best,
Ed


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=166532)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=166533)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=166534)
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: danvprod on 7 Aug 2017, 03:21 am
Awesome idea!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: corndog71 on 7 Aug 2017, 01:55 pm
Because my room is small, I decided to mount my servo amps in the ends of a new stand to save space, and because my room is small I am able to do that and keep the connections short.

I am really enjoying the NX Oticas, I continue to tweak the bass and speaker positions.

More later.

Best,
Ed


That's pretty cool!
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: danvprod on 7 Aug 2017, 11:42 pm
You just have to have Dave build an UberBuss inside the stand and you will be all set.  :D
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 8 Aug 2017, 12:10 am
Thanks guys, it helps unclutter the floor a bit. 

The Uberbuss is sitting next to it right now, I considered building a spot for it but because of the space it would take up I chose not to.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 6 Oct 2017, 11:44 pm
Hey all, I haven't been here much lately but wanted to stop in and give a brief update.  I have made numerous changes to my system, so many that it would be difficult to do any reasonable comparisons based on the sound I had previously. 

First off, the boss gave her permission to move my primary listening space into what we call the great room (only took 16 years :thumb:, all it will cost me is new furniture :lol:).  This room is much larger than my previous space, this has resulted in a system that is easier to listen to, soundstage has been positively impacted as well, but in my opinion the ease of listening is the biggest change, not that my previous space was bad, this is simply better (even without sound treatment other than furniture).  This is the current/permanent layout:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169443)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169444)


The 45 degree layout is a plus IMO, although the layout centered on the short wall was good as well (but wasn't working for the boss).

The other major change is that I have moved from my Auralic Vega DAC/Bottlehead Kaiju (300b amp) to a Vinnie Rossi LIO for my DAC/Preamp/Amp.

So how does it sound?  In a nutshell, pretty darn great!  The NX-Oticas are the best speakers I have owned.  Yes, I said the same thing about the Wedgies, I still love the Wedgies, the sound of both speakers is very similar with the main difference being what you would think, the Otica goes lower and has more bass impact than the Wedgie.  In my small room the Wedgie may still reign supreme, but I won't be dragging the system back there to compare.  I did have an extremely brief comparison of the Wedgie and Otica in the current room, that is what brought me to the conclusion noted above.  I will do a more thorough comparison at a later date, when I do I will start a new thread per Danny's request.

The Oticas and LIO are a great paring, the additional power of the LIO is a benefit, especially in the larger space.  The LIO/Otica combo present what I can only describe as a very natural sound, balanced, with nothing exaggerated.  This LIO has the AVC and Tube Buffer, I am saving up for the DHT with high hopes of where it will take me.  I am still messing with the setup, I need to pick up some slightly longer speaker cables and clean up the wiring to the microRendu, but I am one very happy camper!

BTW, I am driving the Otica MTMs full range, I will be following up with Vinnie to determine what my options may be with regard to hi-passing the amp at around 80Hz while keeping the preamp outputs full range.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 10 Oct 2017, 04:00 pm
Hey Ed, congrats on the new room and the  new  LIO  :beer:  We've been  messing with some of the  Slaglaformers up here  as well in a  totally passive peramp and  they are very impressive.  Haven't heard them in the LIO but I know John Chapman was directly involved inthe LIO's AVC , he  also built the   digital contorl for the  autoformers in teh  "pre" we've had access to.
Glad to hear   you are  enjoying the  Ottica MTM's, bet they sound great with the additonal  room around them 

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: flavo on 4 Jan 2018, 02:21 pm
I love what you've done with these. A couple of questions on the build.
 
How did you get the veneer in the wave guide recess to mold with the concavity?
Also, the divider between the H frame and the MTM. Is that permanently affixed to the H frame and did you have those fancy angles cut on the CNC machine?


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156437)

Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Bob in St. Louis on 4 Jan 2018, 03:21 pm
Very nice. Pelin burl?
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: Captainhemo on 4 Jan 2018, 05:28 pm
I love what you've done with these. A couple of questions on the build.
 
How did you get the veneer in the wave guide recess to mold with the concavity?
Also, the divider between the H frame and the MTM. Is that permanently affixed to the H frame and did you have those fancy angles cut on the CNC machine?


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156437)

If you go back through his build,   Ed shows how he did the veneer in the wave guide ( pattern from  duct tape/painters tape)   and   the  tops  IIRC

jay
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 12 Jan 2018, 12:00 am
I love what you've done with these. A couple of questions on the build.
 
How did you get the veneer in the wave guide recess to mold with the concavity?
Also, the divider between the H frame and the MTM. Is that permanently affixed to the H frame and did you have those fancy angles cut on the CNC machine?


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156437)
Hi Flavo, sorry for the late reply, I didn't see your question until now.  With regard to the waveguide, As Jay noted, I showed how I did it earlier in the thread, there may be other ways as well but this worked pretty well for me.

The middle piece is not permanently attached, it sits on 4 Herbies dots (don't recall the actual name ATM).  I wanted to be able to use the H frames with other speakers down the road.  The angles were done on my table saw, I built a jig due to the compound angles, they are made of 3 3/4" pieces of mdf, they were glued up prior t running them through the saw. I am lucky I didn't lose any appendages, if you have a safer way to do something like this I highly recommend it.

Hope that helps!

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 12 Jan 2018, 12:02 am
Very nice. Pelin burl?

Hi Bob, it is Plane tree Burl.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 14 Jan 2018, 06:23 pm
Ed,

Would you go into more detail on how you laid out, cut, and glued up the middle section, including the jig you used?

Thanks,

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 14 Jan 2018, 09:49 pm
Ed,

Would you go into more detail on how you laid out, cut, and glued up the middle section, including the jig you used?

Thanks,

Mike
Hey Mike, sure, let me start by saying this was a very dangerous cut to make and I don't recommend anyone going this route.

I ended up doing this twice, in the first version I tried to take the angle too close to the corners, in the final version I left  about 1/4" from the corners.

I started by cutting 3 of the 3/4" panels to the appropriate  size, I then cut the footprint out of the MTMs from the top panels using a jigsaw and glued them up.

I set my blade to the angle I wanted, this angle was dictated by the points I wanted to land based on the front view (e.g. 1/4" from the cutout on the top panel and 1/4" from the side bottom) with the panel placed vertically.

Because the material being removed reduced front to back, I had to raise the back of the panel, I did this by screwing an additional panel to the back that would sit square on the table. Something like this:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=174527)

Some better sketches would help explain it, unfortunately my laptop is down right now so I don't have access to Visio but I am working on it today.

 The difficult part of this was getting the same angle for the opposite side because one side starts at the front and the opposite side starts from the back, a little hard to explain but more obvious when you are setting it up.

I did this with no safety guards on the saw, hence my earlier warning.  For my layout, the saw blade was a bit shy of cutting all the way through so I finished the last bit with a handsaw followed by sanding.

I am a "seat of the pants" woodworker, just figuring things out as I go, there are probably better/safer ways to get the same results, but with my tools and knowledge this is what I came up with.  I built that part a year ago last October, I don't think I left anything out but I have slept since then :D.  If I remember anything significant I will modify this post.

Hope this helps!

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 15 Jan 2018, 05:29 am
Ed,

Thanks. Pictured/sketches would be a help. I think I’m getting the gist of it but haven’t got my head wrapped around it yet.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: ebag4 on 15 Jan 2018, 07:20 pm
Mike, a picture is said to be worth a thousand words, hopefully this gives you a better idea of what I was trying to explain above:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=174596)

Best,
Ed

 
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: mlundy57 on 15 Jan 2018, 07:53 pm
Ed,

Thanks. That makes more sense. A tall fence would make that a lot safer.

For me I need to figure out how to turn it around backward because I have a right tilt saw. Looks like the easiest would be to move my fence to the left side of the blade. Also build a supplemental fence that fits over my current one and is as tall as the jig.

I can see how this is dangerous because even with a tall fence you still have to hold the work piece against the fence as you push it through the blade. This means having your arms over the blade as it makes the cut. Feather boards won't work, nothing to attach them to. Maybe an L shaped attachment to the jig that rides on the table on the outside of the blade. The base of the jig would have to extend beyond the work piece in both directions, not just one, for the L piece to attach.

This might work. You wouldn't be able to see the cut but once you have it setup that shouldn't matter.

Mike
Title: Re: Veneer Question/ NX Optica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
Post by: NeilBlanchard on 15 Sep 2020, 05:14 pm
I am curious to learn a bit more about these speakers - beautiful build by the way - what tweeter is using? What frequency does it crossover - is it ~1400Hz?

Have you measured yours (with REW maybe)? I would imagine the GR Research has - I would be interested in seeing that.