What makes a good 15" bass driver

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FullRangeMan

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #20 on: 29 Dec 2020, 09:23 pm »
Why is this?
Light cones and loose suspensions have faster transients and more easy to get hi SPL than a heavy cone which require a powerful motor and as ever personal taste.
Neo magnets are great also, no so romantic as Alnico but detailed and powerful.
« Last Edit: 29 Dec 2020, 10:25 pm by FullRangeMan »

rajacat

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #21 on: 29 Dec 2020, 09:26 pm »
If you have the tools and space to work, DIY and putting the money towards the best possible drivers is a great idea. I built my speakers and use an 18" waveguide w/ 1" CD, AE TD15m 15" woofers attenuated w/  Fostex R100T2. The Fostex's are expensive but if you're willing to wait a bit, some used ones will appear. Mine pair were $350 and appear to be new. I power the 15" AE's w/ Crown XLS 1502. I use the built-in crossover to create the passband. The AETD15m has very low distortion and is flat in its passband. The 1" CD has very low distortion too and crossing it low (700 hz) makes easy to blend in with tweeters. I power them
 with 300B SET monoblocks.


I tune by ear. Measurements are great to get you in the ballpark but all rooms are different and all ears are unique. I settled on just using a smartphone app to get me "in the ballpark".

If I had gone OB, those woofers might have been AE's 15" OB version. I still like the idea of using a waveguide to help alleviate the room factor. Sometimes my speakers almost sound like an excellent pair of cans because the waveguides are so effective. I supplement this with a couple of 6" folded horn subs and a traditional sealed 12". With open baffles I'd use the GRresearch open baffle subs. I'd like one more sub but it sounds very good now. I wonder how a pair of  the GR OB would synergize with this setup.

I sure like the feel of that sealed 15" woofer. I can feel it with my whole body even at moderate levels.
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rajacat

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #22 on: 29 Dec 2020, 11:20 pm »
Don’t get so hung up on the numbers… I’m running a single Faital 15PR400 with an Alpair 12P (per side) with a MiniDSP for fine adjustments. Roughly based on the OBL15 www.troelsgravesen.dk/OBL-15.htm

Tho the numbers don’t tell, they sound pretty sweet to my ears.
+1

JohnR

Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #23 on: 30 Dec 2020, 02:12 am »
My low pass filter is a Jantzen 3.9mH C Coil in series and a 150uF paper in oil capacitor in parallel. Where should I look for the weakness in this set up?

I understood from your earlier post you had only a single inductor, the capacitor will change things but even so, I would try measuring both the woofer and the mid (fullrange?) separately to see whether the crossover is functioning as intended. And whether that peak is likely to be audible. OBs can be tricky to measure but maybe start at a meter with the mic vertically between the drivers.

This is just data to decide what to do. Maybe you will end up deciding to get a better driver but it doesn't matter how much you spend, if you don't have a working crossover you won't get the best result from it. So I think you may as well see if you can figure out what's up with the Alpha first.

JohnR

Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #24 on: 30 Dec 2020, 02:30 am »
Light cones and loose suspensions

A detail: accordian surrounds are stiffer, not looser.

FullRangeMan

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #25 on: 30 Dec 2020, 03:00 am »
A detail: accordian surrounds are stiffer, not looser.
I believe the stiffness vary according the CMS and VAS values and the doped level.

opnly bafld

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #26 on: 30 Dec 2020, 03:27 am »
Bumpy

I may have something confused, you keep talking about low passing the 15" driver at 100/150 Hz, but the values you give (3.9mH/150uF) seem to indicate a much higher number.  :scratch:

FullRangeMan

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #27 on: 30 Dec 2020, 03:54 am »
There is this first order calculator (around 330Hz for 3.9mH)
https://www.erseaudio.com/First-Order-2-Way

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #28 on: 30 Dec 2020, 04:36 am »
My low pass filter is a Jantzen 3.9mH C Coil in series and a 150uF paper in oil capacitor in parallel. Where should I look for the weakness in this set up?
Have you seen this thread at DIY Audio?
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/355643-eminence-alpha-ob-question.html

Bumpy

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #29 on: 30 Dec 2020, 01:44 pm »
Apologies to all that have offered help, but I fear my memory has confused things more than it should.

Let me try and clarify.

My OBs are 3 way, built by a very gifted designer. Initially it had Saba Greencones in midrange with crossover to an Altec 416B at about 300Hz. All these were driven by a 45 triode amp. Although sounding great I convinced myself that there had to be an even better midrange driver to improve things further.

After much experimentation I found that either a Supravox vintage T215 RTF 64 or SEAS Exotic W8 both improved on the SQ of the Greencones. Each had its own flavour and better still each reached comfortably below 300 Hz without distortion. This allowed me to scrap all passive crossover components on the midrange driver with corresponding improved SQ. Please note, this can only be achieved with drivers that roll off suitably without distortion

Playing just the midrange and tweeter together was the sound I wanted. I just needed to get the bass dialled in, bearing in mind that the midranger was now contributing well below 300Hz.

So I added more inductance to what was the low pass filter to try and achieve 100Hz. At the same time I was lulled into thinking that a modern 15" driver with high Qts like the Eminance Alpha could do a better job in OBs, so I bought a pair. I had by now moved to a dedicated amp for the bass, being the ICE 1000wpc, to achieve higher reserves of power, better damping factor and control of its own volume.

Now after much measurement, and listening, the Alphas went back in the box and the Altecs once again took centre stage.

Currently I am running the midrange without crossovers and settled on 300Hz low pass on the Altec. This gives meat to the lower mid frequencies and gently dialling up the volume of the bass lets me hit the sweet spot.

The bass is good and strong but the driver barely moves. This phenomenon I rightly or wrongly interpreted as not dishing out the bass frequencies, hence my initial question.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: What makes a good 15" bass driver
« Reply #30 on: 30 Dec 2020, 02:44 pm »
.
....Currently I am running the midrange without crossovers and settled on 300Hz low pass on the Altec. This gives meat to the lower mid frequencies and gently dialling up the volume of the bass lets me hit the sweet spot.

The bass is good and strong but the driver barely moves. This phenomenon I rightly or wrongly interpreted as not dishing out the bass frequencies, hence my initial question.
Thanks for the clarification. This makes more sense.  The Altec will surely play higher quality low mids than most 15" drivers. If the Altec is rolling off smoothly, add a sub (OB?) below it to get some kick, or crossover to subs.