Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

neobop · « **Reply #680 on:** 24 Jul 2014, 12:20 pm »

There's a poster on Asylum who seems to have a lot of experience with Stantering. He says at one point they had serious QC problems and many styli are defective. Hope yours is good.

I was told that the 681 stylus won't fit a 881. The suspension wire housing (or whatever it's called) looks smaller on the 681.
Maybe I have an erroneous impression, but I never liked the 681. It always sounded like an M97x - rolled off and dull.

I don't know what the price is, but for $250 you could send your old stylus to Soundsmith for a ruby/LC. Seems like a good investment to me, especially considering you're taking a chance with fleabey. I also don't like the Stanton vertically oriented plastic stylus holder. They never seem to fit tight and it just seems like a stupid way to secure it. The Pickering stylus holder is much better IMO. Maybe that's just me as well. I don't remember anyone else complaining.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #681 on:** 27 Jul 2014, 01:52 am »

Does anyone know about the Signet MR5.0 series?

The MR is supposed to mean maximum resolution. According to the databank impedance is 790 ohms with 5.0mV. I'm guessing that's DC and the same generator as the 440/120, but I'm not sure.

The ML version has a beryllium cantilever and I'm also wondering if it has a round plug?

neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #682 on:** 31 Jul 2014, 02:14 pm »

I purchased the ATN-7V as a replacement for the MR5 basic. It take the newer rectangular plug.

neobop · « **Reply #683 on:** 31 Jul 2014, 02:33 pm »

Thanks Don. I saw an MR5.0ML for sale. I looked it up and saw that it has a beryllium cantilever so I bought it. It's supposed to have minimal use. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as I await delivery. Hopefully it will replace the ATN152ML that I broke. Because it's beryllium I thought it might be an older round plug.

The ATN7V seems like a good choice for the generator. I think all MR have the same motor with 790 ohms and 5.0mV out.
neo

dlaloum · « **Reply #684 on:** 1 Aug 2014, 12:16 pm »

Nice find!

kubi · « **Reply #685 on:** 1 Aug 2014, 02:04 pm »

Hi there everyone!
I'm a newbie here so bare with me and forgive hijacking;)

So it took few days but I did read all 35pages

....originally because I was going to buy maestro with broken stylus and replace it with atn95 with atn150mlx needle. But I didn't

Now I'm thinking of buying AT100e and ATN150mlx to go with it (210euro) or AT150mlx (250euro). Which would be better bang for the buck for my Satisfy arm (9g effective)? And how would they compare to Maestro/ATN95/150mlx? I know the AT100e/150 combo would be lighter (better for my arm, right?) and low inductance (no clue if it's better or not). Please help
Are there any other cartridges I should be looking at at 250euro price range?
Thanking you in advance
Jacob

neobop · « **Reply #686 on:** 3 Aug 2014, 12:19 pm »

Well, the MR is such a pretty little cart - all silver and gold trim with a black stylus holder. It's metal yet weighs slightly less than a 440/120. To be honest I was expecting a little better QC from a Signet. Both channels measured > 800 ohms but one is around 830. That's about 5% more than the 790 ohm spec, so the generator is the same as the 440ML/OCC (5mV). This is the same motor as in the 132, 142, 152, 160, 120, 130. The 170 and 180 have a little less inductance/resistance. I think their (170/180) impedance is 2800 ohms opposed to 3200, and the output is slightly less.

I set it up on the Unitrac and mistakenly set VTF at 1/2 the value - 0.85g. It seemed to track perfectly well, but bass was lacking and I realized my mistake. I have a feeling this is going on my 440 body. Maybe I'll even get a 100E, but I don't feel like breaking in a new AT.

I take some photos later. Maybe I can show you how pretty it is.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #687 on:** 4 Aug 2014, 11:31 am »

I saw a couple of carts on Agon that look interesting. First a Grace Ruby:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-grace-f-9-ruby-reduced-price-again-2014-07-07-analog-92845-garden-grove-ca

You might be able to get it for less. Apparently it's not selling quickly at the former price.

This is an auction:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-pickering-xsv-5000-with-stereohedron-stylus-and-dustamatic-brush-2014-08-02-analog-98178-tukwila-wa

neo

neobop · « **Reply #688 on:** 4 Aug 2014, 11:42 am »

Here's the Signet:

I had it running into a 50K phono stage. I think capacitance was 220pF. So I switched to an old NAD and set capacitance at 100pF. It sounds excellent.
I obviously have this in a secondary room, but it's good enough to tell. I don't know if I could hear the channel imbalance or the difference from the 440 body, if I did a comparison.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #689 on:** 4 Aug 2014, 10:34 pm »

Quote from: kubi on 1 Aug 2014, 02:04 pm

Hi there everyone!
I'm a newbie here so bare with me and forgive hijacking;)

So it took few days but I did read all 35pages ....originally because I was going to buy maestro with broken stylus and replace it with atn95 with atn150mlx needle. But I didn't
Now I'm thinking of buying AT100e and ATN150mlx to go with it (210euro) or AT150mlx (250euro). Which would be better bang for the buck for my Satisfy arm (9g effective)? And how would they compare to Maestro/ATN95/150mlx? I know the AT100e/150 combo would be lighter (better for my arm, right?) and low inductance (no clue if it's better or not). Please help
Are there any other cartridges I should be looking at at 250euro price range?
Thanking you in advance
Jacob

Welcome Jacob, and welcome to this monkey house thread. [BTW, "Welcome to the Monkey House" is a book of short stories by Kurt Vonnegut]

Sorry for missing your post. Guess I got caught up with a new cart, a rather infrequent event for me lately.
I can't believe you read this entire long winded thread. You have the patience of a saint, and must be thoroughly confused by now.

Maybe it's just as well you missed the Maestro sale. Did you realize the ATN150MLX would require a transplant? Some say the wood body of the Maestro is over-damped. It might be better to find a used series 1 Virtuoso, Beta or whatever with a wood top. If you find one that needs a new stylus you can get a 3472 series that's higher compliance, tracks at 1.5g and will match up with your arm. Like this:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATN3472HE.html

http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATNSERIESVL.html

If you wanted to do a transplant you'll need an aftermarket carrier. The stock styli have no compliance screw.

The other option is buying an ATN150MLX and a body to go with. The 100E is the same basic generator as the 150, but whether you'd like that better is hard for me to answer. I think it would give a little better detail/resolution and maybe a little less musicality. You could get a 120 body to go with and have the same higher inductance body of the 440. The 120 comes with a nude elliptical and you could try it out like that, but the change with an ATN150MLX is rather dramatic.

There's another option if you're going to look for a Clearaudio, or if you're unsure. You could buy an AT95E and replace the stylus. Maybe you remember seeing my potted 95? It sounds too good to be true and you can use one of the styli linked to above. I bought an AT92E for $20 and used the stylus from it. I just took it off my Unitrac - sounds good.

Maybe David or Scotty have a suggestion or something to add. I'll have to think about this a bit.
neo

kubi · « **Reply #690 on:** 5 Aug 2014, 10:32 am »

Yeah the title fits alright

Thanks Neo, that's more than I can chew right now:)

I was ready for the transplant in the maestro but didn't know about it being over-damped...I'll be hunting used Virtuoso then but they are very rare here.
So Maestro can be replaced with atn95 carrier and Virtuoso with 3472/atn92, correct?

Yeah, maybe I'll just buy at120 it will get me going for now and maybe n the future I'll replace it with ATN150mlx...
So AT120 motor is better than AT100e/AT150mlx

...AT95e with ATN3472 sounds good too

Thanks neo, I'll have to think about it...
Jacob

neobop · « **Reply #691 on:** 5 Aug 2014, 12:42 pm »

Quote from: kubi on 5 Aug 2014, 10:32 am

Yeah the title fits alright
Thanks Neo, that's more than I can chew right now:)

I was ready for the transplant in the maestro but didn't know about it being over-damped...I'll be hunting used Virtuoso then but they are very rare here.
So Maestro can be replaced with atn95 carrier and Virtuoso with 3472/atn92, correct?

Yeah, maybe I'll just buy at120 it will get me going for now and maybe n the future I'll replace it with ATN150mlx...
So AT120 motor is better than AT100e/AT150mlx

...AT95e with ATN3472 sounds good too
Thanks neo, I'll have to think about it...
Jacob

Hold on a second Jake. The 120/440 motor isn't better than the 100/150 motor. It's a little different and might be easier to get flat response, depending on the stylus. In theory the 150 generator is better. It has lower inductance - 350mH, opposed to 490mH. So the coils in the 150 are smaller and it has less resistance/impedance. Thinking about this a bit, in an ultimate sense if you get the 150 stylus I think the 100/150 body will have greater potential.
Loading is critical for either of these and it's important to have total capacitance (wires + preamp) less than 200pF. It's also nice to be able to adjust your input impedance, but with the 150 stylus either should settle in nicely at 47K.

All the Clearaudio MMs use an AT 3400 series plug (the plastic part that holds the cantilever and fits into the body). This is the same plug on the low compliance AT95 replacements and the higher compliance 3472 series P-mount styli. All the Clearaudio bodies use the same motor. It's virtually identical to the 95. The wood top seems to make a difference, but in all honesty my modded 95 sounds very close. The Aurum, Aurum Beta etc. all have the same motor. Tolerance might be slightly better with the more expensive models. If you got either a 95 or a Clearaudio I think you'll have better results with the 3472 series P-mount styli. An ATN150MLX has compliance similar to the P-mounts.

Although you've read the entire thread it's a little different for us, being familiar with all of this. I don't want to discourage you, but doing a transplant is a little hairy and an exotic cantilever is easily broken. All the stock and aftermarket 3400 series styli are bonded. None are nude, but you can get good results with the better ones. If you can transplant a 150 stylus into an aftermarket plug, you'll have the equivalent of a Maestro. If you get any P-mount stylus a re-tipper can give you an exotic cantilever/stylus for around the same money.

AFAIK, all the Clearaudio stock styli come without a compliance screw. The aftermarket ones like the Jico or Vivid line have the screw. This is necessary for a transplant. It's not necessary for a re-tipper to replace the cantilever/stylus, although you'll wind up with the original compliance.
If any questions come up as you're mulling this over, don't hesitate to ask.
neo

dlaloum · « **Reply #692 on:** 5 Aug 2014, 12:59 pm »

The more basic Aurum Beta was also available in both Aluminium mounted and wood mounted... and would be easier / cheaper....

The ATN92 and ATN95 have the same identical plug - so once you par away the rest of the excess plastic - they are the same (as are any other members of the respective families such as ATN3472, ATN311, etc...)

The 92's are intended for arms of circa 7g and the 95's for arms of circa 16g... damping hugely widens the scope of mass to compliance matching - sufficiently so to make the AT92 sound very good on a 16g arm.

The AT100/120/440/150 family (those being the members currently in production!) - are all the same format body - although there are higher inductance models (120/440) and lower inductance models (100/150) - the two inductances currently being produced are 490mH and 350mH.

The 3 lower cartridges have all plastic/resin bodies whereas the 150 has a metal body

The plastic bodies have the advantage of being lighter, and as this family of cartridges are highish compliance, this can be an advantage with many arms.

The advantage of the 150 is that it can make a more positive firm connection to the headshell, transferring vibration to the arm - this is an advantage only in cases where the arm has good internal damping.

A number of people have also observed that the 150 and some of its earlier metal bodied relatives (AT15/20) sound better when mounted on a wooden headshell - possibly a similar effect to the wood mountings on the CA cartridges.

The differing inductance of the various bodies does not make them either better or worse, but it does alter the adjustments to the voicing. - If you are willing to play with cartridge loading, then you can further adjust either type to taste...

I like to have both up my sleeve, as sometimes it is easier to lower inductance than to lower capacitance.... and vice versa....

There are also other members of the family which have been discontinued with inductances ranging from 630mH down to 350mH.
(I hesitate to call the ATML180 a member of this family as I don't think its stylus is interchangeable with the non ATML models.... it had inductance of 240mH)

You can also fit the Audio Technica "211" series styli on these bodies - those styli were designed for the now discontinued AT1x2 series of p-mount cartridges - and in most cases are slightly higher compliance than the equivalent AT1x0 model...

Just watch out for capacitance - AT's like very low capacitance loading - so your phono stage needs to cater to that for best results.

bye for now

David

P.S. heheh as I was typing this, Neo snuck in and stole my thunder.... great minds think alike (and fools seldom differ...) still I will post it as written given I covered some ground a little differently!

kubi · « **Reply #693 on:** 5 Aug 2014, 04:50 pm »

WOW

Thank you both kindly - this is a lot to absorb...and to choose from

I'm using ifi iphono and i can adjust both capacitance and impedance. The clearaudio tonearm is the old one with rca connectors and I'm using some old Ultralink I/C lying around but don't know their capacitance. I'm going to do low capacitance I/C from klotz ac110:)

You see, I was thinking about getting AT150mlx and almost bought it but then I red this article:

http://dagogo.com/audio-technica-at150mlx-dual-moving-magnet-cartridge-review

and if I understand correctly (english is not my native language) AT150mlx would be better on heavier arm (mine is 9g effective mass).
Also it says that AT150mlx is very detailed but not too musical:? Will I get it to be more pleasant/warmer with my tube amplifier (Mingda MC34a)?

Then I red something else on other audiocircle thread that I could put ATN150mlx on AT100e body (being lighter) and it would match my tonearm a bit better...
OK now I'm getting dizzy

It's kinda obvious that I'm new in spinning records and learning all that will take some time so forgive me all silly questions and derailing this thread
Jacob

Grbluen · « **Reply #694 on:** 5 Aug 2014, 04:52 pm »

As far as transplanting the 150, be extremely careful. The 150mlx cantilever doesn't seem to take the same abuse as the 140s. Not saying it can't be done, just use care. IMO, the 150mlx is worth the extra cash.
Don

neobop · « **Reply #695 on:** 5 Aug 2014, 07:13 pm »

Jacob,
The guy who wrote that article doesn't understand 100Hz compliance. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
Because compliance/arm matching uses 10Hz compliance the figure must be converted. The equivalent 10Hz compliance is 18cu. This is a little less than an Ortofon 2M (22cu) and the same as the 440 or 120. If you used screws weighing 2g, with a 9g arm, you would resonate at approx. 8.53Hz with the 150 body. With the 100 body it would be approx. 8.96Hz. That's right in the recommended range.

The bit about going out of alignment with different records is bullshit. It will be sensitive to vertical orientation, SRA. That's the vertical angle of the needle in the groove. There's no getting around that except with a spherical stylus. Most people find one position that sounds right with just about everything. There could be a few records that need a minor adjustment. Everyone is different in their sensitivity to this, but the more extended the contact, the more this could matter.

I agree with the assessment about neutral/detailed sound. Some people would call it analytical and others might say accurate. The 95/Clearaudio is a little more musical, but won't have quite the resolution without the more advanced stylus.

I'll come back a little later after I think about your dilemma. It would be good to start breaking in a body.
neo

kubi · « **Reply #696 on:** 5 Aug 2014, 08:38 pm »

Hi guys,
thanks to you now I have second thoughts about transplants - I would go bananas if I broke 170 euro stylus;)...so maybe I'll hold on with that for a while, maybe one day

@neo
Of course it has to be converted, why didn't I pick that up

I had nagaoka mp110 before and their specs are in 100hz as well...

Anywho, I'd love to create my own Virtuoso/92 monster but there's no second hand cartridges from clearaudio on ebay.co.uk nor .de nor other websites I'm fallowing:( so I think it's the time to pull the trigger and buy AT150mlx...it's gonna be grand sure

worst case scenario I'll stick some wood on top of it;)
I'm still open for suggestions
Jacob

neobop · « **Reply #697 on:** 6 Aug 2014, 01:49 pm »

Jake,
I have the impression that you're looking for one good cart, and are not really into cart swapping. In which case I think you made a good choice. No other company offers the bang for the buck as AT. I also think you have a good idea of what to expect. I don't know what phono stage you're using, but capacitance loading is critical. I also don't know about those cables you mentioned. Blue Jeans cables is on the net and has an interconnect that's 12.1pF/ft. It's stiff and unwieldy, but I wanted to mention it as an option.

Good luck and let us know what happens,
neo

dlaloum · « **Reply #698 on:** 6 Aug 2014, 02:02 pm »

Quote from: kubi on 5 Aug 2014, 08:38 pm

worst case scenario I'll stick some wood on top of it;)
I'm still open for suggestions
Jacob

Get it, try it, then try it in a wooden headshell....

kubi · « **Reply #699 on:** 6 Aug 2014, 02:52 pm »

@neo
Yep thats about right
Im without a cart now and I need to buy something decent...AT150mlx it is then:)
Don't think i'm gonna stop there

I'm still on a hunt for virtuoso or other clearaudio cart to mess with

@David
Ill try to fiddle with it as much as possible within my manual capabilities:)
Thank you very much
Ill let you know about my findings on at150mlx