AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: HT cOz on 15 Dec 2010, 02:57 pm
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Audio GD has a special going for their NFB-12 DAC. They are selling it for $200. Shipping is ~$45 so you can have one of these for ~$250 which seems very chearful to me.
Here is a link to the DAC http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm
Some of the notable features are:
• Dual WM8741 Dac Chips used
• Fully discrete output with no opamps in DAC
• USB support to 96KHz/24bit
• Coaxial / Optical inputs 192KHz/24bit
• Custom Alps Volume control with headphone amp
• WM8805 for SPDIF with low jitter 50PS
• 6 groups of internal power supplies with dedicated DC
• Digital/Analogue have separated isolated power regulators
• High quality parts from Vishay/Toshiba/Hitachi/Nover
• No Feed Back design with no caps for filtering
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40059)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40060)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40061)
They also have a sister DAC NFB-11 to this unit that uses a ES-9018 chip. http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11/NFB11EN.htm
I decided that the NFB-12 was Cheap and Cheerfull enough for me and am in for one. :thumb:
My front end will be a SB-2 and maybe a laptop along with this DAC. Looking forward to checking this exciting company out.
Kind Regards,
Robert
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Got my NFB-11 shipping notice last night :D
Looking forward to seeing how it compares to the audio-gd Compass. I like the small form factor of the NFB-11/12, as mine will go from office (headphone use) to home (dac use). The Compass was too big to haul around every few days.
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Got my NFB-11 shipping notice last night :D
Yeah I'm probably crazy not to go for the NFB-11 as I had been wanting an ESS DAC for some time, but in the end I went cheap and got the NFB-12.
For the uninitiated the NFB-12 is slightly warmer and more forgiving of imperfect recordings. On a great recording the NFB-11 is probably the winner of the two.
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Must. Not. Give. In.
Their stuff just looks so well made.
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Must. Not. Give. In.
Their stuff just looks so well made.
Ah come on, this deal is so good its REDUNCULOUS!!! lol
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Looks tempting to say the least. Looking forward to your impressions. :thumb:
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Am I reading this right? Change one jumper and you have a combo pre-amp/dac?
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Right, the jumper change switches the pre output from fixed to variable. So before, it's a switchable DAC with fixed level output, and after it's a switchable DAC with volume control....as I understand it anyway.
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This looks very interesting! After looking at their site though I am a bit confused about what to buy. They seem to hint that the Sabre 9018 dac NFB-11 is likely to be more analytical/dry as compared to the Wolfson Dac (NFB-12). But the Sabre Dac seems to be the hot dac that everyone is talking about. So what to buy?!
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This looks very interesting! After looking at their site though I am a bit confused about what to buy. They seem to hint that the Sabre 9018 dac NFB-11 is likely to be more analytical/dry as compared to the Wolfson Dac (NFB-12). But the Sabre Dac seems to be the hot dac that everyone is talking about. So what to buy?!
no need to worry . I got an email saying they are halting preorder right now due to usb problem and demand to high.Got to wait until after January
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no need to worry . I got an email saying they are halting preorder right now due to usb problem and demand to high.Got to wait until after January
Well that's a bummer. Hopefully they will take more orders soon.
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This looks very interesting! After looking at their site though I am a bit confused about what to buy. They seem to hint that the Sabre 9018 dac NFB-11 is likely to be more analytical/dry as compared to the Wolfson Dac (NFB-12). But the Sabre Dac seems to be the hot dac that everyone is talking about. So what to buy?!
I was in the same boat as I have been watching the ESS DACS on the Twisted Pair website for a long long time. However, it came down to being $75 more expensive and honestly I think I prefer a warmer more musical DAC vs. more detailed analytical sound. Certainly not an easy choice given the reputation of the ESS chip.
For another view on the difference between the two check out Lampizators wedsite. http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/wolfsondac/WolfsonWM8742DAC.html
"This dac played extremely well. It has all best qualities you can ask for.
It is 99% the quality of the Sabre32 DAC, and it beats other highly capable DAC chips like CS4397, CS4398, AD1865, AD1955, BB1402, BB PCM63, etc.
I am not yet sure how it ranks against the most tweaked TDA1541.
In one area - in the BASS - The wolfson beats them all. Probably the Sabre 32 Buffalo too. I can verify it next week. This wolfson bass is absolutely awesome. I never heard anything like that in my home. The WM8740 bass was already superb, and the successor is even better.
I can just fantasize how this DAC would play in I2S mode which is available on board, as well as dsd and all possible formats.
All in all - this is the finest DAC money can buy - with addition of a tube stage - you will never need a better DAC. It belong in the same class as the best ones including the king of them all - Sabre 32. The distance between them is so small, that I finally decided to call them equal. Sabre costs much more, is harder to get but also it has built in receiver chip - it is fully integrated."
I don't know if that helps and there maybe latter versions of ESS chips that are even better, but I think it is similiar to what is being said on the Audio GD website.
Robert
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no need to worry . I got an email saying they are halting preorder right now due to usb problem and demand to high.Got to wait until after January
I think that applies to the NFB-11 but the NFB-12 is still available to purchase.
As far as I can tell from the website the NFB-12 has not had the USB issues. It looks like they fixed the NFB-11 with the addition of a PLL circuit, but they are overloaded with demand.
For the unitiated, Audio GD put the NFB-11 out and it had a problem. They paid for shipping back to China for a fix but it has taken a long time to find a solution that does not compromise sound quality. Here is what they say on their website "The ES9018 PCM mode (I2S input) working not steady as SPDIF mode .
Some engineer friends adviced to us, converte the USB interface from I2S to SPDIF for avoid the ES9018 working at PCM mode but we refuse, we believe this is the first simple way but will degrade on SQ.
Final ,We addition a high performance PLL chip ( typical jitter is 21 PS) in NFB-11/NFB-10 for improve the USB interface clock performance .
Now we had test 40 units NFB-11 near month for confirm we had fix this issue. Benefit from the high performance PLL join in, the sound from USB is audibly improved .
Thanks all pre-order customers , your patience reanimate us working without tire.
We will shipping these around 20 units for users test at first . We wish other pre-order customers understanding and waiting some days, once we get feedback these 20 units through test, we will shipping other units as soon as possible."
I think the thing to keep in mind that the DAC chip has a lot less to do with the sound than all the other parts of the DAC.
It does seem this is a difference between the NFB-11 and NFB-12 as the Wolfson dac didn't seem to have this problem to begin with.
Now on ordering this unit, I accepted that it may take some patience on my part, but that is part of the deal when getting a great price.....
Cheers,
Robert
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Has anyone received their DACs yet? Any impressions about sound and build quality?
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I ended up changing my order to a NFB-3 which is a dedicated DAC. I figured that since I am running an integrated amp and don't listen to headphones that I should just suck it up and pay the extra $100 for a dedicated DAC. They did say the NFB-3 would ship next week. :icon_lol:
I hope $300 is still C&C?
Here is a link to the NFB-3 http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB-2/NFB2EN.htm
One advantage is that it does have the voltage outputs so if I ever choose an Audio GD Pre-Amp I could get one with the voltage input. Otherwise I'm not sure how different these products are? Not a whole lot of information out there.
Thanks,
Robert
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First NFB-11 review was just posted on Head-Fi, very positive. Still waiting on mine to arrive, it shipped on the 14th.
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Kingwa has put out some fantastic products in the last couple of years!
If this isnt C&C then what it!
I am in the process of ordering a NFB-12 and a NFB-3!
The 12 will be replacing a Zero amp/dac!
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That's awesome, you can let me know if I made a good choice.
This was a bit of a leap of faith for me as I will be living with this DAC for a long time.
But when you only have a couple hundred bucks to play with and you don't want OpAmps and you recognize the importance of power supplies and quality analog circuits,,, you can't even DIY into something this good with no case for 200-300.
That makes that leap easier. I just hope it is musical!!!
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Well I've decided to try and get a nfb11. Hopefully they're still available. Take a break from DIY...
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I'm sure you won't be able to resist modding it :)
I'm interested in the NFB-11 too actually. Please do update with what you find out about availability.
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I'm sure you won't be able to resist modding it :)
I'm interested in the NFB-11 too actually. Please do update with what you find out about availability.
Argh. Next batch not shipping til next month ...
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You could always join me with the NFB-3, shipping next week :icon_twisted:
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You could always join me with the NFB-3, shipping next week :icon_twisted:
Actually that's what I'm contemplating ...
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I was thinking about setting up a small, simple, quality bedroom system and this may fit the bill. How about one of these set up as a dac/preamp being fed by an AppleTV (streaming from a Mac mini in the main system controlled by my IPad) and directly feeding a pair of powered Audioengine or Swan speakers? Thoughts/suggestions?
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I think that would work nicely. You could also get some headphones. Those guys on head fi love their phones.
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I put an order in for the nfb3. Found some good feedback on stereo.net.au. forum comparing to pricier dacs. The price is too good to pass up. With those features I'd think a brand name would equivalent would be $1k or more... especially with that power supply. Hope I don't have to wait too long for it.
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Great find on Stereo Net! I'm hopefull that I can live with this DAC for a long time!
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Looks like audio-gd is abandoning the ES9018 chip, apparently the required order size is too much for them to carry so many DAC chips.
So, the NFB-12 is now the defacto standard small form factor DAC, and the stock of few made NFB-11s are collectors items or dinosaurs.
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Wow that seems crazy. There is a lot of interest in that chip and they have a number of DACs built around it.
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Wow that seems crazy. There is a lot of interest in that chip and they have a number of DACs built around it.
I think they only had 2 or 3 models with that chip. The announcement seems to also suggest that the sound of the WM8741 is preferred ("So consider the sound quality (taste of mine) and the market feedback") of the two. There was also a statement made in their native forum indicating that there will be fewer or no new products introduced in the coming year and that the focus will be on learning and improving the business side of things, a 6moons review(?)... glad i jumped in now, the bargain pricing isn't going to last forever.
Translated: In 2011, I'll stop all the major product design, focusing on learning management, further improve product quality and production efficiency. 在 2010 年中，我们已安排一位同事到中山大学参加 MBA 硕士学习班。 In 2010, we have arranged to participate in one of my colleagues to Zhongshan University MBA Master classes. 而我本人，也开始多花时间在生产及销售管理上。 And I also began to spend more time in the production and sales management.
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Interesting. Looks like we got in on he the right chip and the right price. I can't wait to get it all hooked up. :D
It seems like they could have real potential with their business.
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How do they sound??? I'd love the ESS version to try...anybody get one??
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My NFB-11 (ESS version) just arrived in LA today. Burning in now, will post impressions in a few days.
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cool, any out of the box thoughts??
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cool, any out of the box thoughts??
you did catch the bit above that they're discontinued, right?
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Yep.... If one pops up somewhere used or just being sold to sell I want to know if they sound good and if I should jump. I can't afford an EE DAC or any other current DACS with the ESS chip and I missed this thread until today.
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Yep.... If one pops up somewhere used or just being sold to sell I want to know if they sound good and if I should jump. I can't afford an EE DAC or any other current DACS with the ESS chip and I missed this thread until today.
I know where you are coming from because I too was thinking that the ESS chip must be the chip to build a DAC around. However, they still have the NFB-12 for $200 and NFB-3 for $300 up on the website price list.
Ultimately I read what was out there and decided the chips were not all that important compared to the other parts of the DAC. Lampizator has said the bass in the Wolfson was the best of any he has heard so there are tradeoffs anyway you go. It appears that one of the tradeoffs with the ESS chip is that the computer interface is VERY picky, so picky that Kingwa has dropped it. (My interpretation)
Here is the money line from Lampizator " can just fantasize how this DAC would play in I2S mode which is available on board, as well as dsd and all possible formats.
All in all - this is the finest DAC money can buy - with addition of a tube stage - you will never need a better DAC. It belong in the same class as the best ones including the king of them all - Sabre 32. The distance between them is so small, that I finally decided to call them equal."
I also think that these prices reflect a discount in that you give them your money and don't really know when you will get your DAC. I have no problem with that as I am confident it will be delivered and I can wait.
Kind Regards,
Robert
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Posted part 1 of my NFB-11 review here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/531752/nfb-11-12-reivews#post_7170364
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I know where you are coming from because I too was thinking that the ESS chip must be the chip to build a DAC around. However, they still have the NFB-12 for $200 and NFB-3 for $300 up on the website price list.
Ultimately I read what was out there and decided the chips were not all that important compared to the other parts of the DAC. Lampizator has said the bass in the Wolfson was the best of any he has heard so there are tradeoffs anyway you go. It appears that one of the tradeoffs with the ESS chip is that the computer interface is VERY picky, so picky that Kingwa has dropped it. (My interpretation)
Here is the money line from Lampizator " can just fantasize how this DAC would play in I2S mode which is available on board, as well as dsd and all possible formats.
All in all - this is the finest DAC money can buy - with addition of a tube stage - you will never need a better DAC. It belong in the same class as the best ones including the king of them all - Sabre 32. The distance between them is so small, that I finally decided to call them equal."
I also think that these prices reflect a discount in that you give them your money and don't really know when you will get your DAC. I have no problem with that as I am confident it will be delivered and I can wait.
Kind Regards,
Robert
Ears are the final arbiter but all reviews I've read using the Sabre chip point to a sound signature that may not be for me. Or is it? Gah. Too many choices!
Just got an email that the NFB's on its way!
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Ears are the final arbiter but all reviews I've read using the Sabre chip point to a sound signature that may not be for me. Or is it? Gah. Too many choices!
Just got an email that the NFB's on its way!
Thats awesome! I changed my order on Dec 22nd, when did you get your NFB-3 order in? I stoped by the Magnolia Hifi shop tonight, its been so long since I had my system together that it sounded great. This has been so long in the making for me... better go do some more work on the room and speakers to get ready for the DAC landing! :thumb:
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I think I'll put an order in for the nfb-2. My Paradisea dac which has been a champ with every set up I've had over the last four years is adding annoying colourations in the bass and mid-bass with my class d amp and Ohm Walsh 5000 speakers.
Are you guys ordering these directly from Audio Gd or are you going through Pacific Valve?
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I went direct from audio-gd. They stopped taking new orders Jan.1 to catch up, but if you order now you'll get 5% discount for the Feb. 15th shipments. Dunno Pacific can get them any sooner.
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Right, Pacific Valve does not have the absolute latest from audio-gd.
However, buying from Pacific does all you to return or service things in USA, versus having to troubleshoot via e-mail from China, or returning the product to China....both of which are quite a slow pain.
So, if PV has the item, they are worth considering.
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How do you order an NFB-12? (Sorry if this is obvious but I'm not seeing it...)
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Its not obvious at all....I couldn't find the prices for a long time but finally saw them in little Red print 3/4 of the way down the product page on the left side. I think you figure your own freight based on that webpage and do your total and send them email...its not easy thats for sure. They could use a revamped website...audio-gd that is
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How do you order an NFB-12? (Sorry if this is obvious but I'm not seeing it...)
There is a link on the top of the English page that says price list (http://www.audio-gd.com/PriceList.htm) and shipping cost (http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipping%20cost.htm). Took me awhile to notice that also. Anyone in US interested in purchasing the NFB-12 you can get it from www.pacificvalve.us for $237 (not sure if shipping is included) and pacificvalve is listed as authorized agents (http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm) in US.
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Another way is to email Audio-gd directly and tell them you want an NFB-12. Give them your mailing address and they will send a total cost. I used PayPal.com to send the payment.
The latest shipping time at this point is around 15 Feb.
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Has this unit been compared to anything yet? For about the same money I bought a Beresford 7520. The thing is so good I'm reluctant to try anything else. Not saying it's the end all-be all, but for the money and sound quality it represents tremendous value.
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I haven't seen anything about them and my interest went south when they did away with using the ESS chip, I tried to get one right when they announced stopping them but the gentlemen declined to sell me one...doesn't mean anything that he was reluctant just sayin.
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Has this unit been compared to anything yet? For about the same money I bought a Beresford 7520. The thing is so good I'm reluctant to try anything else. Not saying it's the end all-be all, but for the money and sound quality it represents tremendous value.
Not really that I can tell. It's still relatively new and Audio-gd product awareness has been confined largely to the head-fi forum until recently. I know the Beresford has its fans. I am an audio-gd fanboy though and just find it hard to believe any dac under $500 will sound as good as the NFB-12. The level of care and the quality of the design I just don't see in any <$1000 stuff I've researched. It think it would be more expensive to Diy these Dacs with his design. They seem to be taking a long-term quality-first approach using the dirt cheap costs of manufacturing and selling in and from China for the powers of good (audio). I can just stare at the internal pics for hours. Ears of course may say otherwise. Note the price is a promo, so a proper comparison to the 7520 would probably be the Sparrow or FUN.
To be honest I'd be more inclined to throw the NFB-12 against the Rega Dac - which uses the cheaper WM8742.
In other news, my NFB-3 arrived yesterday!
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How do you order an NFB-12? (Sorry if this is obvious but I'm not seeing it...)
Basically have to email them and do a little back and forth. May take a day or two for the whole transaction. At this point I've some to accept this as standard procedure for ordering anything direct from China/HK. Allow a couple of days for transaction, then 2 weeks for delivery (if they're speedy). To USA anyway. I think Oz is much faster.
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Cool, thanks. I got an email back, shipping on the NFB-12 for orders placed now is after Feb 15th.
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In other news, my NFB-3 arrived yesterday!
Wush how about an update?
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Wush how about an update?
Update is there's been a change of plans. I grabbed the (now discontinued) DAC19MK3 in the for sale section and will sell the NFB-3. It's not as future-proof as the NFB (limited USB), but otherwise looks like one heck of a DAC. Like HTcOz I'm looking for something that will be in my setup a while and I certainly couldn't DIY something like that for the same price.
Anyone want an NFB-3? Now you won't have to wait until after Feb. 15th :D
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Looks like a nice DAC, actually both do....enjoy!!! Cash poor here, my prescription drug plan through medicare just went nuts, was paying $1.10/EA now for one script today it was $42.00...ouch!!!! I gotta sell some JBL's. :thumb:
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Update is there's been a change of plans. I grabbed the (now discontinued) DAC19MK3 in the for sale section and will sell the NFB-3. It's not as future-proof as the NFB (limited USB), but otherwise looks like one heck of a DAC. Like HTcOz I'm looking for something that will be in my setup a while and I certainly couldn't DIY something like that for the same price.
Anyone want an NFB-3? Now you won't have to wait until after Feb. 15th :D
Oh the siren song of PCM1704UK! lol That should be a nice DAC and one to keeper for sure.
After reading about the powersupplies I decided the NFB-2 was the one for me. So I switched again. :lol: Wouldn't be great to compare DAC-19 to NFB-2 and NFB-3 and see just how much differnce all this makes?
I'm not sure people apprciate just how hard it would be to make 6 discrete power supplies. Thats just insane! I can't WAIT :thumb:
Cheers,
Robert
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Oh the siren song of PCM1704UK! lol That should be a nice DAC and one to keeper for sure.
After reading about the powersupplies I decided the NFB-2 was the one for me. So I switched again. :lol: Wouldn't be great to compare DAC-19 to NFB-2 and NFB-3 and see just how much differnce all this makes?
I'm not sure people apprciate just how hard it would be to make 6 discrete power supplies. Thats just insane! I can't WAIT :thumb:
Cheers,
Robert
Exactly. How many PCM1704 Dacs can I get for that price? It was a tough decision. If I had gotten the NFB-2 I probably would not have gone for it. And not just discrete but Class A to boot. I'm positive the NFB-2 would be >$1500 msrp from an established brand and the 3 for not much less, hence my comparing the -12 to the Rega (heh, trying to be somewhat on topic).
For those that think it too good to be true that translated post on the a-g forum really shows long-term vision and planning. The QC section was cool, too. Something like 2%(?) returns/repair.
Would be cool to compare the two. Maybe down the road we can do a swap :wink:
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Update is there's been a change of plans. I grabbed the (now discontinued) DAC19MK3 in the for sale section and will sell the NFB-3. It's not as future-proof as the NFB (limited USB), but otherwise looks like one heck of a DAC. Like HTcOz I'm looking for something that will be in my setup a while and I certainly couldn't DIY something like that for the same price.
Anyone want an NFB-3? Now you won't have to wait until after Feb. 15th :D
Funny you got that. I made an offer on that dac19 MK3 but the seller didn't accept. Another one popped up on Audiogon last night for a great price so I bought it. Should be here Monday.
I'm going a new direction for my digital set up. I'm using a squeezebox touch with these (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) modifications. Since this is new territory for me I wanted to try the discontinued and less costly Dac19 MK3 first before commiting to one of Audio GD's higher end dac's like the Reference 5.
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Update is there's been a change of plans. I grabbed the (now discontinued) DAC19MK3 in the for sale section and will sell the NFB-3. It's not as future-proof as the NFB (limited USB), but otherwise looks like one heck of a DAC. Like HTcOz I'm looking for something that will be in my setup a while and I certainly couldn't DIY something like that for the same price.
Anyone want an NFB-3? Now you won't have to wait until after Feb. 15th :D
YGPM! :)
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Funny you got that. I made an offer on that dac19 MK3 but the seller didn't accept. Another one popped up on Audiogon last night for a great price so I bought it. Should be here Monday.
I'm going a new direction for my digital set up. I'm using a squeezebox touch with these (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) modifications. Since this is new territory for me I wanted to try the discontinued and less costly Dac19 MK3 first before commiting to one of Audio GD's higher end dac's like the Reference 5.
No way. Argh. When it rains, it pours. That seller is in my neck of the woods, too.
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YGPM! :)
FYI, my NFB-3 is sold guys.
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Well, I took the plunge and ordered the NFB-11 from PV because I wanted to avoid overseas order hassles and I didn't feel like waiting for the NFB-12. I will use it in a bedroom system streaming music from an AppleTV and with Mackie MR5 powered monitors. I haven't gone through a bunch of dads like some of the folks here, but I'll let you know my results. :)
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I got shipping notification for the NFB-2 over the weekend. So I will be able to post more info soon.
Wushuliu, how is that DAC-19 sounding? Very curious as you have some pretty B.A. Diy DACs to compare it too.
Robert
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I haven't gone through a bunch of dads like some of the folks here, but I'll let you know my results.
Actually, many of us have had only one father, but have gone through several DACs !
Steve
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I got shipping notification for the NFB-2 over the weekend. So I will be able to post more info soon.
Wushuliu, how is that DAC-19 sounding? Very curious as you have some pretty B.A. Diy DACs to compare it too.
Robert
Hey Robert, the DAC19 is outstanding. Tonality is similar to my AD1865, just a very natural presentation, but quieter background and separation. More accurate timbre (?). Drums and piano seem right on the money. Just a step up all around. I have not found it warm or 'musical' with the pDM100 filter - just straight neutral. Vocals do shine, but not to the expense of high/low frequencies. I have lots of gear shifting around w/ the Onix and full range driver swapping so these observations may change, but no question it is better to my ears than what I've heard so far. No real discernible character of its own. Whatever I swap in the chain I can hear the change.
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I haven't gone through a bunch of dads like some of the folks here, but I'll let you know my results. :)
I've gone through a couple dads. Don't worry, it gets easier!
Hamlet
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I've gone through a couple dads. Don't worry, it gets easier!
Hamlet
While I'm glad to provide random forum amusement, I categorically blame the auto correct feature of my IPad for the spelling faux pas. :oops:
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While I'm glad to provide random forum amusement, I categorically blame the auto correct feature of my IPad for the spelling faux pas. :oops:
Well said! I know this is off-topic, but do you know how to disable auto correct on an IPad? I really hate that feature!
Nevermind! Just found it.
Dave
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Well, I took the plunge and ordered the NFB-11 from PV because I wanted to avoid overseas order hassles and I didn't feel like waiting for the NFB-12. I will use it in a bedroom system streaming music from an AppleTV and with Mackie MR5 powered monitors. I haven't gone through a bunch of dacs like some of the folks here, but I'll let you know my results. :)
Ok, everything finally showed up and I got it all connected and running. I'm listening to Piazolla's Libertango Suite as I type this. I haven't engaged any eq on the speakers (they allow 2 db adjustments on treble and bass). Obviously, we're very early in burn in and I haven't done anything with set up other than throw them on the dresser. Initially, the highs have a nice, clear sparkle without being grating and the bass is suprisingly punchy. Mids are decent, but I suspect they'll open up more over time. In any event, I think I hit the sweet spot for a good, simple and clean bedroom system - about $300 on the Mackies, about $300 for the NFB-11, $100 for the AppleTV and I'm controlling everything through the IPad (which I had already).
Thanks for pointing me to Audio-GD. I think the NFB-11 is really a nice sounding and versatile bit of gear. Looks nice too.
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:thumb:
I received wushuliu's NFB-3 DAC and am extremely impressed with the exact imaging and big mid bass thuuuump!
Acoustical instruments are downright plucky and female voices warm and lush.
Overall this piece represents extreme value for the money and should be considered with any other DAC in it's range and above.
Have not done a direct comparison with my Eastern Electric DAC in the main system but can not imagine liking anything better that the EE.
Sold the Maverick D1 as it was somewhat anemic compared to the NFB-3.
NFB-3 currently hanging (very well) with my Wayne modded Touch, Sensation Dodd buffered 901 with Psvayne tube and venerable 1.6 QRs in the photo studio.
Jazz, New Age, Knofler, Clapton and classical no problem.
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:thumb:
I received wushuliu's NFB-3 DAC and am extremely impressed with the exact imaging and big mid bass thuuuump!
Acoustical instruments are downright plucky and female voices warm and lush.
Overall this piece represents extreme value for the money and should be considered with any other DAC in it's range and above.
Have not done a direct comparison with my Eastern Electric DAC in the main system but can not imagine liking anything better that the EE.
Sold the Maverick D1 as it was somewhat anemic compared to the NFB-3.
NFB-3 currently hanging (very well) with my Wayne modded Touch, Sensation Dodd buffered 901 with Psvayne tube and venerable 1.6 QRs in the photo studio.
Jazz, New Age, Knofler, Clapton and classical no problem.
Very cool. 8) Be interested to hear if it improves after a while. I read the output stages need some time to burn-in.
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My NFB-2 is at camping out at a relatives house... waiting to be picked up. Probably will be this weekend before I can get my hands on it.
Good to hear some news from others who took the plunge.
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My NFB-2 is at camping out at a relatives house... waiting to be picked up. Probably will be this weekend before I can get my hands on it.
Good to hear some news from others who took the plunge.
Any updates, my NFB-2 wont be delevered for several more weeks. :duh:
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I have some news. I picked up my DAC today! :thumb: I was a little surprised to open it up and find a NFB-3 and not a NFB-2. In Audio-GD's defense, I did change my order 3 times :duh: I think you can learn more about a company when things go wrong than when they go right. In all honesty, I think everything will be fine but may take some time to work through.
The NFB-3 looks very nice! This is a real bargin in audio and probably the absolute sweet spot for AGD DACS. That being said, I took it home and hooked it up to see what it can do. My setup is mostly new except for my AMP and consists of the following:
Speakers -> GR Research Neo3TL pre deep cup version
Source 1 -> Squeezebox2 no upgrades crudy wallwart power supply
Source 2 -> Sony S570 BluRay Player
Amp -> Onix 6550 made by Melody push pull using 6550 power tubes with an active pre-amp
Room -> Wood Floors, first reflection (left, right, ceiling, behind speakers) points heavly treated with 4-6 inches of Rockwool, bass traps on front two walls, reverb in room should be about perfect.
With the DAC right out of the box, compared to the SB2 I noticed a little more detail, larger soundstage, seems like more drive and less congestion on music like Rock that can at times get busy. Now that is about all I can give you at the moment. It's spending some time running right now so I will report back after it gets some more burn on it. Also keep in mind it is really hard for me to talk about this system as it is all so new to me.
Cheers,
Robert
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Ok, everything finally showed up and I got it all connected and running. I'm listening to Piazolla's Libertango Suite as I type this. I haven't engaged any eq on the speakers (they allow 2 db adjustments on treble and bass). Obviously, we're very early in burn in and I haven't done anything with set up other than throw them on the dresser. Initially, the highs have a nice, clear sparkle without being grating and the bass is suprisingly punchy. Mids are decent, but I suspect they'll open up more over time. In any event, I think I hit the sweet spot for a good, simple and clean bedroom system - about $300 on the Mackies, about $300 for the NFB-11, $100 for the AppleTV and I'm controlling everything through the IPad (which I had already).
Thanks for pointing me to Audio-GD. I think the NFB-11 is really a nice sounding and versatile bit of gear. Looks nice too.
Ok, about a week of burn in (internet radio). The mid range has opened up, but I think the primary reason is the big sorbothane feet under the Mackies. Acoustical decoupling took away a big bass hump which was muddying up the midbass and midrange in general. Now, it's much more balanced. I could stand a touch more midrange warmth, but it's not cold or analytical. Highs are clear without being shrill (a big issue for me) and there's still plenty of bass punch. (Mackies still set to flat - no eq).
One thing I like is that the warmth of old recordings still comes through. (Louis Armstrong, Django Rheinhart, etc.) All the recording limits are still there, but its a nice, musical sound.
The system excels with chamber music, small combos and vocals. It can't really resolve full orchestra, but I didn't expect it to given the small speakers. Actually, my main living room system doesn't quite fully resolve full orchestra but I think few systems really do.
One weird thing. One morning the entire system got very staticy. I turned the NFB-11 off and on which cleared it up. No idea why that would happen, but easy fix - like a computer reboot. :green:
At this point, I think the main place for improvement would be settings on the Mac Mini. I've tried Pure Music streaming through Airfoil with some nice results, but it stalls after 15-20 minutes. I'm not sure Pure Music makes much a difference when streamed to the AppleTV, unlike in the main system where it just hits the sweet spot for me.
Again, I don't think I could have done better for my tastes and this room without spending a whole lot more. Thanks again for the Audio-Gd suggestion.
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Audio-gd already emailed me back working to fix the mix-up. A good sign for sure.
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I spent a few more hours with the NFB-3 last night and am noticing some things that I really like. I am definitely able to enjoy more of my music collection with this DAC. In my past setups, I loved the ambiance of simple acoustic guitar but that same feel just did not exist with more complicated music. The NFB-3 brings that sense of presence / cohesion to albums by Creed, The Cranberries, Smashing Pumpkins, Live, etc.
This is the type of music that I grew up on but never really listen to anymore because it sounded thin/congested/mp3ish. The only way to get satisfaction from that music was to crank up the volume, but that would leave my ears ringing and as I get older I don’t like that approach. With the NFB-3 I can listen with satisfaction at lower volume levels. Naturally those recordings that sounded good before sound even better.
I left it running all night so by this evening it will have 35 hours on it. I think I will be able to get a pretty good feel for this unit before it moves on and I get the NFB-2 that I ordered.
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PM sent
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Audio-gd already emailed me back working to fix the mix-up. A good sign for sure.
I ordered my NFB-2 two weeks ago and since they are coming back to work from Holiday i emailed and asked for delevery update. My reply was "we have no record of payment, please send paypal information".
Great, I ordered direct instead of Pacific Valve to save a few bucks, since then Pacific has lowered their price to the same fee. Might consider ordering local if placing order. :duh:
FYI: Payment was recieved, it was just a mixup. Shipping out Feb 18th, will report back.
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I've agreed to help Audio-GD by offering to sell the NFB-3 for $366 delivered. It is available for immediate shipping from Houston to your home. If you don’t want to wait weeks on end from Audio-GD or from Pacific Valve, this is the deal for you. If you are in Houston, and would like to come listen and possibly purchase an additional discount is available.
Kind Regards,
Robert
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I am in a relatively unique position with the NFB-3 in that I have both the 24/96k (DIR9001) and 24/192k (WM8805) modules. I don't feel a need to make a lengthy review stating every aspect of my setup, my hopes and dreams and all that so I'll keep it simple. On my setup, listening to James Taylor in FLAC -> NFB-3 -> C-2 -> MS-pro the difference between these two modules is very apparent. The WM8005 is very mellow, missing many details and rounding out the sound. DIR9001 is a completely different beast, outclassing the WM8005 in every way (except 192k handling). The details come right through, extremely transparent, hits hard and fast, no mentionable issues at all.
You can get the DIR9001 module from Audio-gd for only $22.50 and for those with the WM8005, this is a very worthwhile upgrade!
This is a quote from headfi, i decided to add the DIR9001 to my order just to try them both. Suppose to be shipping next week.
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ES9018 Sabre NFB11 will be available Mar. 1. Looks like there will be a 30% discount off the DI (Digital Interface) usb/spdif converter to go along with it since it does not come w/usb. Great deal since from what I've read the DI sounds almost (I said almost, jkeny) as good as the jkeny modified Hiface.
http://audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm (http://audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm)
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ES9018 Sabre NFB11 will be available Mar. 1. Looks like there will be a 30% discount off the DI (Digital Interface) usb/spdif converter to go along with it since it does not come w/usb. Great deal since from what I've read the DI sounds almost (I said almost, jkeny) as good as the jkeny modified Hiface.
http://audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm (http://audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm)
Great news, thanks.
At 100$ the DI is a very nice option. I wonder if the 30% discount also applies to the power supply :)
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My NFB-12 arrived. It will probably end up in the study for use with the silly-cheap amp but mainly headphones for late-night work/listening. I need to switch over the jumper for the fixed output to see how it sounds that way.
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John,
I almost bought an NFB-12.
Would like to hear your listening observations when you have time with direct mode.
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+1 on that, the NFB-12 is the one DAC I might actually purchase, so when you get time let us know how it sounds...THX
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Sure, will do. In this whole thread, am I the only person that actually bought an NFB-12? :lol: I can understand that actually, for a dedicated DAC the NFB-3 is probably more attractive. This one is for "portable" use as well as in the study - the DAC in my USB measurement gizmo is horrible.
Initial impressions: for $200, the build quality is incredible. It has a stack of regulators in it. Haven't got a handle on the sound yet but I'll let it play for a while and settle down.
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Would like to hear your listening observations when you have time with direct mode.
I don't think it's a direct mode, it seems to just set the gain of the ACSS amplifier to a fixed level. I'm not hearing any difference between fixed and variable output.
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I've installed it into the study and will run it on endless repeat for a while before commenting. I read somewhere in one of those endless head-fi threads that it changes a lot in a couple of weeks.
I'd also like to get some better (to me) phones, as I really don't like any that I have presently. I'm thinking I'll try the Senn HD598.
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John,
I love my Sennheiser HD650's with good DAC's and HPA's!
Looking forward to post burn-in results.
When I asked about the filter mode they use with the NFB-12 and the Wolfson DAC, did not get an answer that I could understand. I think they have Minimum Phase mode selected.
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Sure, will do. In this whole thread, am I the only person that actually bought an NFB-12? :lol: I can understand that actually, for a dedicated DAC the NFB-3 is probably more attractive. This one is for "portable" use as well as in the study - the DAC in my USB measurement gizmo is horrible.
Initial impressions: for $200, the build quality is incredible. It has a stack of regulators in it. Haven't got a handle on the sound yet but I'll let it play for a while and settle down.
I purchased one too, but am still waiting. Pacific Valve says they're hoping to ship it in June....
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Any good reports yet on this unit??
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Any good reports yet on this unit??
I'm listening to it now but playing through a cobbled-together system so no reference at all. Are you interested in it as a DAC or as a headphone amp?
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Interested in observations on both capabilities, but mainly the DAC.
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DAC here, not interested in the headphone amp at all actually, I got that covered too well...LOL.
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I can't say I'm over the moon with it as a standalone DAC. Since I received it I've found some threads about the frequency response, and subjectively it sounds more cut off than the graphs indicate. Bear in mind it's a headphone amp and preamp all in one for that price.
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I was going to actually use the DAC and pre-amp feature now that I think about it. Are you saying the high end sounds clipped? Not as extended as one would like??
I need USB of at least 24/96, a pre-amp function if possible maybe another Audio GD model would be better, not sure which one-my MAX budget would be $400 or less ideally. I'll look at Pacific Valves site to see what others would fit as they have a bunch and a phone number with people I could speak with if there is a problem.
:?
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disappointing to read your findings. I'm contemplating canceling my brother's (overdue) gift, but I can't think of anything else in the price point with as much potential... There was (maybe still available) a used Tranqulity for $500, but he's have to use his laptop to control volume, it wouldn't sound optimal, and its a lotta bread for a gift.
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Gopher- Get him a Mav or Grant.
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Well. This is why I don't like to post assessment of gear. I might say the same or worse about one of those. And as I said, it's still needs plenty of break-in, in a month's time I may have completely changed my mind about it.
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That shouldn't be a cause to be uncomfortable posting your feelings. There is a ton of talk about the graphs, but little about peoples actual feelings as to how it sounds, so I find that valuable. Its a relatively inexpensive dac with no satisfaction guaranty--our buddy's opinions and our own speculation is pretty much all we have to go on.
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John,
I will be interested in your long term impression of the NFB-12.
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Sounds like Kingwa made a design choice to have the NFB-12 be more forgiving:
What cause the roll off at NFB12.
The WM8741 setting is no fault at NFB12.
This setting is for accept 192KHz input.
The NFB12 can had better specs on page.The two caps in the red loops cause the roll off.
The NFB11 is same with the NFB12 except the digital parts and TWO caps.
In NFB11 we applied 100PF, but in NFB12 we applied 470PF.
An electronical university man can easy design a excellent specs gear. But the sound maybe not excellent.
We also can build a excellent specs gear, but we want more listen not only meter test.
In NFB11 we plan to design its sound very revealing, so we choice 100PF caps for it.
The NFB12 is finished design with NFB11 at same time, we want to design its sound a bit smooth , and forgive so we spend more days than NFB11 just for adjust parameter and listen, final choice the 470P.
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/525#post_7252522 (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/525#post_7252522)
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John- Like Fred said your thoughts, his and everybodies here is what helps me choose the equipment I own. I never heard of Virtue Audio before coming here and there stuff is a huge part of my system now and I'm glad of it. Hearing from guys that enjoy finding out about the latest and greatest and ultimately how it sounds is what makes this place special...the neatest thing is finding stuff thats not bank breaking and sounds good, I figured everybody knew what these sounded like but the fact is no many do, they are just buying blindly. Not me, I wanna know if its good or if its bad or just "meh" before I plunk down my $237 for one, thank you in fact for having the _alls to call it like you hear it. :thumb:
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What cause the roll off at NFB12.
The WM8741 setting is no fault at NFB12.
This setting is for accept 192KHz input.
The NFB12 can had better specs on page.The two caps in the red loops cause the roll off.
Hm. I found the frequency response curves someone did here - http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-samplerates.htm.
Not sure what to make of it. I suppose trying an upsampler at some point might be interesting. There's more to it than the FR though. Back to the burn-in bench it goes!
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A minor issue to report at this point: the NFB-12 tells the computer that it is a high-power device (even though it is "self-powered.") So you may be unable to connect via a hub (not saying it's recommended, but "some" will try...)
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John- Like Fred said your thoughts, his and everybodies here is what helps me choose the equipment I own. I never heard of Virtue Audio before coming here and there stuff is a huge part of my system now and I'm glad of it. Hearing from guys that enjoy finding out about the latest and greatest and ultimately how it sounds is what makes this place special...the neatest thing is finding stuff thats not bank breaking and sounds good, I figured everybody knew what these sounded like but the fact is no many do, they are just buying blindly. Not me, I wanna know if its good or if its bad or just "meh" before I plunk down my $237 for one, thank you in fact for having the _alls to call it like you hear it. :thumb:
Thanks Ed, appreciate it. The thing is, relying on others' opinions is pretty dodgy. I've been there myself, believe me :)
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John got any lowdown for us on the NFB-12 now that you've had it a little while???
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No, only just halfway though the two-week break-in period :)
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I think giving the DAC time to settle in is wise. In my case I enjoyed my NFB-3 from day one and it only gets better. To my ears it has produced the best female vocals of any DAC I have owned. Granted at first I thought it a little bright (but brilliant "accurate" bright) it has definitely mellowed the last few months. Horns, strings and cymbals that float onstage and so easily placed. Just darken the room or close your eyes.
I liked it enough the Eastern Electric was sold as was the XDA-1. For the money it is next to my Virtue gear one of the best products I have purchased. Almost makes me think I got the one that they did something trying something different.
Thanks for looking,
Tom
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The NFB-3 would be a better choice as a dedicated DAC, I'd be fairly sure of that. If you look at this diagram (http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB1111.GIF) on the Audio-GD site, the I-V conversion is being done by the volume potentiometer. And of course the output is being taken through what amounts to a small power amp.
For DAC-only use, it might be possible to replace the pot with a high-quality resistor and take the output right there. But why bother... the NFB-3 is only $100 more.
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Thanks....I'll pass on the 12 and look at the 3 now, great info I think you just saved me from making an expensive error. Thanks again!! :thumb:
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John,
The Wolfson DAC is a voltage output device. No I/V conversion is needed.
The pot is acting like a load for summing the differential output to get a single ended signal so it can drive the HPA. It does set the volume in an unusual way.
Thanks for the feedback!
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Um. Did you look at the diagram?
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Yes,
The Wolfson DAC outputs voltage. The AudioGD module takes the voltage drive and creates current drive. The resistor is the sum point for the differential output currents to create the voltage.
It is not the DAC that needs the I/V conversion, it is their module that needs it for getting voltage drive for the HPA.
Sorry, just pointing out the DAC chip is a voltage output device.
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Yes, so the I-V conversion is being done by the volume potentiometer :)
Anyway, I was just suggesting a couple of reasons why the NFB-3 would probably be a better choice for a dedicated DAC.
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Off the Cheap and Cheerful path for a moment; what do you think of their more high end products; their more expensive DAC's, and their highly photogenic preamps?
I'll be in the market for a supreme preamp in a matter of months and their stuff looks just wow. I mean, I don't understand what's going on under the hood, but even I can tell from those pictures of the innards that that must be some well built and well engineered .. stuff.
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I have emailed Pacific Valve in regards to the NFB-2 with no reply yet. Where are you guys buying from? Direct from Audio G-D or elsewhere? There is not much difference in price either way. I am interested in the faster delivery of these two options.
Thanks,
Randy
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I ordered my NFB-2 direct from China because it was cheaper, but i think since then PV lowered pricing to match. I got mine back in late Feb when the wait was 6-8 weeks. I think they are doing much better on delevery times now. They seem to answer email within about 12hrs or less so give direct a try.
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ES9018 Sabre NFB11 will be available Mar. 1. Looks like there will be a 30% discount off the DI (Digital Interface) usb/spdif converter to go along with it since it does not come w/usb. Great deal since from what I've read the DI sounds almost (I said almost, jkeny) as good as the jkeny modified Hiface.
http://audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm
Will the above usb/spdif converter work with an Alix box (linux)? Presently, I am using a John Keny modified boxed HiFace MKII. However, the M2Tech drivers are not compatible with Linux.
Thanks,
Randy
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As Nick replied in the other thread, the Audio-GD DI will definitely work with the ALix box, he was key in helping me set up an Alix and DI together.
FWIW, I am using it with an MHDT Havana NOS DAC and it is superb but when I tried it with an Eastern Electric Minimax DAC (with the ES 9018 Sabre chip) I had frequent recurring drop-outs. I have read (but am far from an expert on the subject) that this may be due the Sabre chip in the Minimax having difficulty locking on properly to the signal from the DI.
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For those of you who are using an NFB-2 or NFB-3, are you using the USB on the DAC or are you using an USB/SPDIF converter? What are your impressions of the sound quality using the USB on the DAC as opposed to using the DAC with a converter.
I have emailed Kingwa and asked the question of whether the USB implementation on the NFB-2/3 is the same as the USB implementation on the DI. If it is, I probably will save myself some dollars and just order the NFB-2 without the DI.
I already have a John Kenny Modified HiFace MKII. The problem is that the M2Tech drivers are not compatible with Linnux(Alix), hence my interest in the Audio G-D DI
Randy
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John got any lowdown for us on the NFB-12 now that you've had it a little while???
I feel that maybe it's time for an update on this one. I've tried every which way I can, and I simply cannot get good sound from the NFB-12. I know it's a relatively cheap unit, and I hate to say it as Audio-GD has a great reputation in general and this should be a bargain product, but I'm happy to just get rid of it at this point. Since I bought mine, Audio-GD have come out with a new version with switches to set filter parameters but honestly I would be surprised if they make a fundamental difference. The one I have just tends to sound "sucked out" in the midrange, there's something not right with it. I'm sorry but I can't stand listening to it for any length of time.
Bearing in mind that I am in Australia and this unit is beefy (for a headphone amp), I'd be happy to give it away to anyone here for the price of po$tage and a promise to post a fair evaluation of your thoughts here on AC, in case i really have gotten it wrong. Just send me a PM with how you plan to evaluate it and I'll take the fairest offer.
Thanks ;)
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This is now taken. After the PM I realized that I of course got a unit wired for the correct wall voltage. I took it apart, no luck so I googled:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/1905#post_8272336
Thankx head-fi :) The jumpers were hidden under a piece of tape on the board... (?!) So I'll try converting it over tomorrow - or Saturday if that doesn't happen - and confirm that it still works.
Jeez, I can't believe how well this thing is built. If I had a ready use for the power supplies in it, it would almost be worth the price just for them. Oh well...
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I feel that maybe it's time for an update on this one. I've tried every which way I can, and I simply cannot get good sound from the NFB-12. I know it's a relatively cheap unit, and I hate to say it as Audio-GD has a great reputation in general and this should be a bargain product, but I'm happy to just get rid of it at this point. Since I bought mine, Audio-GD have come out with a new version with switches to set filter parameters but honestly I would be surprised if they make a fundamental difference. The one I have just tends to sound "sucked out" in the midrange, there's something not right with it. I'm sorry but I can't stand listening to it for any length of time.
I read as many pages as I could get thru in one sitting of the discussion over on Head-Fi when the unit first came out. There was a big discrepancy between those who feel as you do and those who thought it was just fine for the price. The general consensus of the nay sayers is that the DAC was not suited to run 44khz with the filters selected by the designer and if you either upsampled to 196 before feeding the signal to the DAC (using Foobar or some other program) or pulled pin 22 on the DAC to make it run 96khz max it fixed the problem and the unit sounds just fine. Kingwa, the designer, and the folks who liked it said the right filter was chosen and it sounds just fine like that. Obviously since the newer model has jumpers to change the filter characteristics, the nay sayers won over the designer, or he just caved to the market demands.
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Man...you guys sure expect a lot for a $200 pre-amp, dac, and headphone amp. :lol:
I have the NFB-11, which was the initial effort in the NFB-12 vein but had the ESS9018 Sabre DAC. I have tested this thing against $1000+ DACs and much more expensive stand alone amps. While I have been itching to buy something "better", I have never found a unit that substantially improves upon the NFB-11. I am pissed now because I once had two of them, sold one figuring I'd get something better for home, and now I want it back.
As for the filters....Kingwa had implemented switchable filters long before the NFB-12, but in more expensive units. The switchable filters have made their way down to the less expensive units such as the NFB-12 and NFB-15.
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Hey Sparky, maybe you can answer something for me. Do all NFB-12 (11) units have the jumpers to adjust the digital filters, was it a running change in the model, or is that only a feature of the NFB 12.1? As typical with these manufactures, very little info is available on the website.
As far as being tough, I'm just repeating the synopsis of the threads on Head-Fi, I've never heard the unit. Please dear sir, don't shoot the messenger. I'd be ecstatic if it sounds great.
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Hey Sparky, maybe you can answer something for me. Do all NFB-12 (11) units have the jumpers to adjust the digital filters, was it a running change in the model, or is that only a feature of the NFB 12.1? As typical with these manufactures, very little info is available on the website.
As far as being tough, I'm just repeating the synopsis of the threads on Head-Fi, I've never heard the unit. Please dear sir, don't shoot the messenger. I'd be ecstatic if it sounds great.
My NFB-11 does not have any switchable filter jumpers. I don't know if the initial NFB-12 did, I suspect not as I remember it being identical except for the DAC chip. They were in for the 12.1 though.
Not shooting the messenger, just pointing out that the NFB-11/12 offer a LOT for $200ish.
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No filter jumpers on this one. Kingwa told me the equivalent settings, which I'll dig up when I send it to Letitrol.
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Arrived tonight in good order, only played for an hour and at low volume. So far nothing to complain about and a lot of possibility. I won't comment much yet, mostly so I won't paint myself into a corner either in print here or in my mind subjectively.
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The equivalent filter settings: OS: 2, Filter: 3
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The equivalent filter settings: OS: 2, Filter: 3
2X oversampling , Linear phase 'brickwall' filter. Hmmm. Not what I would have chosen. Much more problematic sound at normal volumes this morning. Still experimenting a lot, in other words no love at first blush.
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2X oversampling , Linear phase 'brickwall' filter. Hmmm. Not what I would have chosen. Much more problematic sound at normal volumes this morning. Still experimenting a lot, in other words no love at first blush.
Any update?
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Yes I do. I was waiting to complete some headphone evaluation, which I mentioned to you would be after it was in my main system. My evaluation as a headphone amp won't be a lot different than yours, but as a stand alone DAC it has merit. I'm away at my father's memorial typing on a phone, so I'll need to hold off until I get back to give a full review. Should be home late Tuesday.
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JohnR was very kind to offer to send his Audio GD NFB 12 to me to give it another ear as he couldn’t make it sound right, as I interpret a midrange suckout making it unlistenable. A nice unit on paper with dual Wolfson WM8741 chips The deal was I was to post my impressions of it online. He’s been waiting some time for this to occur, and I can tell his patience is wearing thin. Well this has been the hardest component to nail down that I’ve ever experienced, it keeps changing like a chameleon. I think I finally have a handle on the changes.
The unit arrived at my door when I came home somewhat late and I installed it into my main system playing low level late night listening and it sounded fine. The next morning I rushed to play it at high sound levels it was pretty much unlistenable. Rather than a sucked out midrange, I had harshness or glare in the mid-treble and up, note at this time that I had immediately switched it to fixed output without listening to the variable output much past that first night as my current DAC sounds much better that way. I have two pre-amps that have both active and passive options, so I tried it both ways, using both high level and low level outputs, and while the sound did change a bit, it didn't get better in any significant way.
So in an effort to fix something, anything, asap, I thought I'd try it direct into the amp and cut out my preamp. Of course to implement this I switched to the variable outputs. Well this sounded a lot better. A large portion of the glare was gone and I could actually listen to music. I played with power cords and interconnects and although I could hear their effect, it didn't change the basic sound of the DAC. Then I wondered if it was the variable vs fixed output rather than my preamp, so the preamp goes back in the circuit. At this point I'm assuming there is a difference between variable and fixed outputs because although there is the inevitable slight haze of another component, the DAC sounded essentially the same as direct to the amp. Then later I went back to fixed output and it had lost most of the troublesome harshness and sounded as good as the variable outputs. (??) Curious. As mentioned the DAC has high and low level output settings and these stayed consistent through all listening conditions, high level was more direct and dynamic, low level recessed and darker, my comments will be on the high level outputs as I preferred that setting.
So about now you’re asking what is the sound of this DAC? At it’s best pretty good for a $200 DAC. Great bass impact, nice detail, good soundstage with a very nice separation of instruments, but there’s a persistent hardness or glare to the mid to upper treble that never goes away completely. Not a dealbreaker for sure at $200, but always noticeable. The manufacturer states this is the softer, more rolled off model, while not tipped up in the treble, compared to my regular TC 7510 using the venerable Burr-Brown PCM1716 it didn’t sound reticent at all. Although I’d be content spending $200 for the unit, I’m not sure I could make it a keeper. I like listening to the unit, but I constantly have this feeling of wanting more.
The chameleon sound? It turns out you need to warm up this thing for a ½ hour or so every time you listen to it. Not just leave it turned on, it has to play music for a bit before it settles down. I still don’t believe this to be possible, but I’ve spent weeks with the NFB 12 and that’s what I’ve found. Please feel free to criticize and critic this conclusion as I’m fine with being proven wrong here.
Then I sent a note to John about my findings, well, I replied to his insistent requests for an update, and he said, “Strange, I had never considered using it as a stand alone DAC.” So I pulled out my Sennheiser HD 203 headphones to give it a listen (don’t laugh, they’re perfectly fine for my Ipod and a very good budget set of phones). Straight out of the NFB 12 using the SPDIF inputs from my transport, finally I heard what John was talking about. A hollow suckout through the midrange making the whole presentation unnatural. I switched to the headphone output of the preamp and this disappeared. Must definitely be a fault in the headphone amp. Then I moved the unit to the computer to try out the USB interface, and a seachange in sound quality. Using some FLAC and WAV 44khz samples that I had used on the big rig the sound was sweet and open, perfectly toned, with only the slightest touch of the hard glare I heard at the units worst days. I could be very happy with the Audio GD NFB 12 as a computer source for a very long time. Why the change? I can only assume the USB interface softens the sound, dropping off a bit of detail perhaps, making the unit sound more musical. Why is the midrange suckout gone? Not a clue, but it is.
Thanks again to JohnR for his generosity, I hope I haven’t peeved him too much with the long delay. And a bonus to those who waded through this review, anyone who wants to listen to the unit, send me a PM and I’ll get it out to you for a trial. I’ll continue playing with it for a bit and post any changes, depending on how many are interested I'll then send it around for a listening tour.
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The chameleon sound? It turns out you need to warm up this thing for a ½ hour or so every time you listen to it. Not just leave it turned on, it has to play music for a bit before it settles down. I still don’t believe this to be possible, but I’ve spent weeks with the NFB 12 and that’s what I’ve found. Please feel free to criticize and critic this conclusion as I’m fine with being proven wrong here.
You are not wrong. I had a gd NFB 2 (used, non switchable filters) and it did the same thing exactly. You can hear it change after 30 minutes of play not just being on.
I thought I was nuts but others have mentioned this too with this particular NFB 2.
Sold it! The Wolfson chip is too laid back for me I was just not moved by it.
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What, me insistent? :lol:
Thanks Letitrol for taking the time, you've given it a much more thorough and fair evaluation than I did. It sounds like chameleon is a good word for it.
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I thought these units were the super hot ones last year? Am I thinking of a different model?
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I thought these units were the super hot ones last year? Am I thinking of a different model?
There have been a lot of changes in the lineup over the last 18mos. I think this version is a little older.
Sorry you struck out on the NFB-12 John! :(
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You are not wrong. I had a gd NFB 2 (used, non switchable filters) and it did the same thing exactly. You can hear it change after 30 minutes of play not just being on.
I thought I was nuts but others have mentioned this too with this particular NFB 2.
Sold it! The Wolfson chip is too laid back for me I was just not moved by it.
Thanks for that tommy, nice to hear from at least one person that I'm not crazy. Well you didn't say not crazy exactly, just not wrong, somewhat different perhaps...
The only thing I could think of is the SMD's. Perhaps for some reason they need current through them? But the NFB 2 (and current 2.2) have discrete components. So we'd have to look elsewhere. John Darko also said 1/2 warm up for the NFB 2.
I can hear what you're saying about the Wolfson chips, lots more low end energy, but I prefer that presentation. Although fairly dynamic, I can see how some would want a more dramatic presentation. Different horses. Nice to have so many inexpensive chips to choose from.
What, me insistent? :lol:
Thanks Letitrol for taking the time, you've given it a much more thorough and fair evaluation than I did. It sounds like chameleon is a good word for it.
No John, thank you. I'm having a blast with this thing, much more fun than something that's easy to figure out. Listening to some WAV files now and it sounds excellent. (Shadowfax, Too Far To Whisper) I'm pretty sure it's a little less incisive through the USB interface, details softened, the edge taken off, which is just what is needed in this unit. It has a nice sound in the big rig, but there's a cheapness to the upper ranges when played there, which can be expected for the price, but it's a letdown with he rest of the performance so nice. I'd like to hear the next level up in the Audio GD line without the SMD's like the 2.2 (without headphone amp tho), or maybe a tube buffer with this unit.
I thought these units were the super hot ones last year? Am I thinking of a different model?
There have been a lot of changes in the lineup over the last 18mos. I think this version is a little older.
Sorry you struck out on the NFB-12 John! :(
Yes, this is the earliest model without any internal jumpers to change the filters or sampling rate. As I understand, the rest of the unit is unchanged. I would expect subtle changes with those adjustments, but subtle changes might be just exactly what this unit needs. The latest 12.1 model with the external switches to change filter and rate for $215 could be a pretty good deal.
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Due to an amp failure at home, I had to temporarily move my NFB-11 to my home system....so for a few weeks at work, I was running my DT990/600s straight from the laptop.
Amp at home was fixed, so I brought the NFB-11 back to work. But this time, I also brought a 20 year old british integrated from home that I didn't use. I like the amp in this integrated, and the few times I have tried the HP out, it was loaded with power. So, I figured it would be a step up from the amp in the NFB-11.
Holy cow was I ever correct. Using this amp with the NFB-11 as a DAC only is a nice improvement. Now I am thinking I need to try some of the hard to drive Hifiman Orthos!
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Hi,
I have a NFB 12.1 with Musiland Monitor 01 USD does anyone know why the NFB 12.1 will not play files with a sampling rate of 176.4KHz but will play 192KHz.I also have a Musiland Monitor 02 US and thinking about using the I2S of the 02 and use the I2S of the usb in the NFB 12.1 what do you all think.
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I'm not an engineer and cannot describe why the NFB 12 and 12.1, and a lot of other DAC's as well, won't play 176 when they can decode 192, but they don't. I assume it's in the chip architecture. Does the Musiland Monitor 02 US decode 176?
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Yes the Musiland 02 does 176.4 and I know the WM8741 with also I think if can get around the WM8805 SPDIF interface in the NFB 12.1 by using I2S I can get 176.4 playback.But how to?