AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Triode Wire Labs => Topic started by: Triode Pete on 13 Dec 2016, 11:23 pm
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More and more music lovers are moving to computer based systems and using NAS for storage. We all know that every piece of wire and termination has an effect on sound quality (SQ). Ethernet is no different. I have an ethernet cable in the wings that sounds very, very good. Open and honest with tremendous clarity.
Any interest out there? If so, what lengths are you looking for? How about a 6 ft. long TWL Ethernet tour cable???
Let me know if anyone is interested!
Cheers,
Pete
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Will they each be measured/tested like the BJC? One of the biggest fails in Ethernet cables is that most do not meet spec due to improper termination.
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Will they each be measured/tested like the BJC? One of the biggest fails in Ethernet cables is that most do not meet spec due to improper termination.
Of course, Jason! All of my cables are tested to standards (& "burned-in") prior to shipment...
Improper Termination??? - not from TWL! C'mon., Jason..
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Of course, Jason! All of my cables are tested to standards (& "burned-in") prior to shipment...
Improper Termination??? - not from TWL! C'mon., Jason..
Sweet! Are you using the Fluke DTX-1800?
I'm not saying that you do...just pointing that out. I'm sure you've read a lot about the topic so I will not link here.
That all said will you offer all lengths in 1' increments?
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I would be interested Pete.
A 6' cable would be fine for me.
George
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I'd have to measure again, but I have 25' cat 5/6 cable from the FIOS router to a switch in the living room. Then a few 3ft-5ft cables, one to a each device including a Squeezebox Touch. I'm betting that would cost more than I am willing to spend.
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I would be interested Pete.
A 6' cable would be fine for me.
George
OK, George, you will be first on the "tour"... just give me a little time to get it to you...
Thanks,
Pete
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I'm in. 6' fine here too. NAS to Router, Router to Server (endpoint). Since your cable is honest, I will be too ;)
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I'm in. 6' fine here too. NAS to Router, Router to Server (endpoint). Since your cable is honest, I will be too ;)
OK, Paul, you will be #2 on the list...
Cheers,
Pete
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I'll give it a try. I only need about 3' but the 6' will work.
Thanks, Mike
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I would love to hear the difference. If you ever send out a 20 footer for tour, I'm in. Pete's power cables and now his Discreet usb cable have been very nice upgrades in my system. No wonder he ALWAYS wins best of show.
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I'd be interested in trying this. It would go between my Apple extreme router and Aurender. 6' is fine. Thanks
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Interested as well. If possible will need two 6 cable . One from nas to switch second from switch to caps
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I'm interested in joining the tour. I've tried a few different ethernet cables lately and surprised at how different they can sound.
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Aside from good craftsmanship, will there be any unique or innovative features in your ethernet cables?
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Aside from good craftsmanship, will there be any unique or innovative features in your ethernet cables?
Howdy rajacat,
Once again for Digital Cables, I'm partnering with PI Audio Group (Dave Elledge) on the R&D & manufacturing...
As far as ethernet cables go, there is a non-standard lay for the cables instead of simple twisted pair. The wire itself is the fastest (velocity of propagation) wire that we can find and it does not have individual foil shields. The foil makes for decreased leading edges at audio frequencies. Also, one of the recipe secrets is our proprietary cryogenic treatment...
I'll update the "tour list" shortly...
Cheers,
Pete
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Count me in if there is room on the list. I ordered the URendu so this will be a good test for me. :D
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The foil makes for decreased leading edges at audio frequencies.
Can you elaborate? I tought ethernet used bi-directional packets sent at 10/100/1000 Mbits/sec.
Thanks
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Can you elaborate? I tought ethernet used bi-directional packets sent at 10/100/1000 Mbits/sec.
Thanks
As I comprehend it, Digital audio transmission has a low speed requirement in comparison to fast Ethernet or Gigabit requirements that are aimed at bulk data and video transmission. Foil shielding adds capacitance that causes audible ringing (jitter) that obscures low level detail. It is a time domain phenomena.
Pete
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Ethernet data transmission is not digital audio until a receiving digital audio renderer converts it to such.
Steve
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Put me down as interested but I need 40 feet.
Me likes the looks of the Telegärtner RJ45 connectors.
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Looking forward to seeing the testbresults @jwtrace suggests. Do you have any product pictures, i love the look designers give to expensive wires!
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Put me down as interested but I need 40 feet.
Me likes the looks of the Telegärtner RJ45 connectors.
The prototypes (yes, there are several with different lengths) that are on tour have Pandit connectors.
The production models will have the expensive Telegärtner's!!!
Cheers,
Pete
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Here's a pic of the "prototype" 6 foot "tour cable"...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156728)
As mentioned earlier, the production models will have the expensive Telegärtner connectors.
Also, production models will have an improved aesthetic look as well...
Here's the TOUR LIST
1) zybar (has 6' model; may be getting the Telegärtner prototype as well)
2) paul79
3) mikeeastman (has 3' model as requested)
4) hi5harry (we will see if we can get you a 20 footer!)
5) Ern Dog
6) this_is_vv (will try to get you TWO 6 footers!)
7) Tomy2Tone
8 ) Tubeburner
9) lokie (40 footer, eh? Oh Boy!)
10) TBD
Cheers,
Pete
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If you're good with shipping to Singapore for the tour, I'd like to give one a try too! Would only need a 6' one, between the router and modem :icon_lol:
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Hey Pete,
What's the shortest ethernet cable you could make, or would recommend?
What'll be the shortest stock length?
Thanks!
-Mike
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Hey Pete,
What's the shortest ethernet cable you could make, or would recommend?
What'll be the shortest stock length?
Thanks!
-Mike
Hi Mike,
The shortest one Dave E & I recommend is 0.75m, or ~ 30" long...
Cheers,
Pete
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Pete, add me to the tour as well... I clearly haven't found enough ways to throw money at wire. The good thing is that it is always TWL wire!
3'-6' length is fine for me to try. I'll be comparing it to BJC 5' Cat 6. Mine are purple so that's gonna be hard to beat.
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Pete, add me to the tour as well... I clearly haven't found enough ways to throw money at wire. The good thing is that it is always TWL wire!
3'-6' length is fine for me to try. I'll be comparing it to BJC 5' Cat 6. Mine are purple so that's gonna be hard to beat.
You got it, Mike!
Cheers,
Pete
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Pete, Ad me too I need 2 cables, a 3 feet and a 6 feet
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Looking forward to seeing the testbresults @jwtrace suggests. Do you have any product pictures, i love the look designers give to expensive wires!
Any updates on the testing?
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Let me first preface that a) I have no experience comparing ethernet cables for sound quality and b) in my years of IT experience, the only difference in ethernet cables is that they either work or they don't. But, knowing Dave and Pete were behind this cable, I thought I'd give it a try. To be honest, I didn't really expect to hear a difference (just another form of expectation bias I suppose). Then again, all of their products to date have been exceptional so I was eager to check this out... might learn something along the way.
From a build perspective, this TWL ethernet cable is impressive... very high quality materials, construction and terminations... definitely slicker than any other ethernet cable I've seen.
As background, I have structured wiring throughout my home and have been using Blue Jeans Cat6 patchcords throughout. They seem to serve their purpose well and I like that BJC tests each and every cable they sell.
For music streaming, I use Roon from a Win 10 i7 desktop located several rooms away from my listening room. For purposes of testing, I used the TWL cable to my Devialet 440Pro in two scenarios:
1) between wall and Sonore microRendu/iFi PS to Devialet USB
2) between wall and Devialet via ethernet/Devialet AIR app
I bought the uRendu last year because the Devialet AIR v2 application was not stable. But a recent AIR v3 beta release is now not only stable but sounds better as well. So now, whether using AIR or the uRendu, sound quality is exceptional. So on to testing...
Scenario 1: TWL ethernet cable between wall and uRendu - I swear I could not hear a difference. At times, I thought the TWL cable offered a bit more openness & extension, but then I'd switch back and not hear a difference. While it confirmed my expectations, it was also frustrating to try numerous times with no findings. (Fears of age-related hearing loss began to creep in... ;-)
Scenario 2: TWL ethernet from wall to Devialet directly using the AIR app. OK, now I was pretty sure I could hear an improvement with the TWL cable... a bit less glare and a more relaxed presentation. The differences were slight and I suspect I'd fail any kind of blind test, but I was surprised that these results were different than via the uRendu.
So, I wouldn't say that's a strong endorsement, but there it is. Perhaps the uRendu does a better job of keeping the signal clean. Or perhaps it is masking something that is revealed by using AIR and the TWL cable.
I by no means have golden ears, but to put things in context, I can hear differences in PCs, SCs and ICs, so struggling to hear a difference between a BJC ethernet cord and the TWL cord leads me to think that there may be better ways for me to invest in my system.
Or maybe I just need to get my ears checked...
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Anyone else on the tour list able to provide your impressions of the TWL ethernet cable? I just got my network streamer and am starting to look at audiophile ethernet cables. More user feedback will be great!
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Have yet to hear one. I would like any Ethernet cable I try to be shielded. Use CAT7 or 8 design. Conductors copper, not silver coated. Grounded as well with gold plated RG45 connectors.
I expect to hear a difference using such between the Aqua Vida transport and Formula DAC. I have tried several different designs from different manufacturers and all have a sing to their sound.
Knowing the sound of TWL cables in general how could I go wrong ???
charles
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As I comprehend it, Digital audio transmission has a low speed requirement in comparison to fast Ethernet or Gigabit requirements that are aimed at bulk data and video transmission. Foil shielding adds capacitance that causes audible ringing (jitter) that obscures low level detail. It is a time domain phenomena.
Pete
Ethernet data transmission is not digital audio until a receiving digital audio renderer converts it to such.
Steve
Exactly. With all of these streamers, digital players, and renderers, which further feed the DAC, the ethernet is sending data and not audio signals. The audio renderer is the one converting it to digital audio. So what would leading edge at audio frequencies matter with data transfer? I can see it making a difference for AES cables and such.
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Have yet to hear one. I would like any Ethernet cable I try to be shielded. Use CAT7 or 8 design. Conductors copper, not silver coated. Grounded as well with gold plated RG45 connectors.
I expect to hear a difference using such between the Aqua Vida transport and Formula DAC. I have tried several different designs from different manufacturers and all have a sing to their sound.
Knowing the sound of TWL cables in general how could I go wrong ???
charles
Well, well, well. Got one burned in for 200 hours and this cable is mine, mine mine, you hear that mine. Compared to wireworld Starlite, supra and AQ.
Every sonic virtue is now more evident, more focused, More clarity, better sound stage and most important does NOT add or subtract a thing. Does no harm, BRILLIANT.
I use it to connect my aqua La Vida transport and Aqua Formula DAC. Next will try from router to Innuos Zenithmk2 music server. A no brainer purchase with money back policy.
charles
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A "sneak peek" of the new TWL "Freedom" ethernet cables with the highest quality Telegärtner RJ45 connectors!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178198)
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Pete, the Telegartner connectors look serious, either a mechanical snake or a spacecraft docking device!
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Here's a pic of the "prototype" 6 foot "tour cable"...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156728)
As mentioned earlier, the production models will have the expensive Telegärtner connectors.
Also, production models will have an improved aesthetic look as well...
Here's the TOUR LIST
1) zybar (has 6' model; may be getting the Telegärtner prototype as well)
2) paul79
3) mikeeastman (has 3' model as requested)
4) hi5harry (we will see if we can get you a 20 footer!)
5) Ern Dog
6) this_is_vv (will try to get you TWO 6 footers!)
7) Tomy2Tone
8 ) Tubeburner
9) lokie (40 footer, eh? Oh Boy!)
10) TBD
Cheers,
Pete
Hi Pete,
Can you give an update about where we are on the tour list? I’m still interest in this.
Thanks,
Ernie
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Hi Pete,
Can you give an update about where we are on the tour list? I’m still interest in this.
Thanks,
Ernie
Hey Ernie
The tour is officially over... We made some important design change improvements from the initial feedback and placed into production the official "Freedom" cable here... https://www.triodewirelabs.com/product/freedom-ethernet-cable/ (https://www.triodewirelabs.com/product/freedom-ethernet-cable/)
(https://www.triodewirelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Freedom-Ethernet.jpg)
Sorry for not reporting back sooner...
Cheers,
Pete
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OK swapped out the original prototype I was using for the latest Freedom Ethernet. WOW, wow and wow. Such a 3D sound stage with an openess to write home about.
Harmonics linger in space and decay into nothingness. Tonality is uncolored and natural. Bass is tight and focused. A clear winner in its class. We compared to cables costing 3x as much. No contest TWL won.
If you use an Ethernet cable do your self a favor and audition one. Thank you Pete.
charles
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Some very recent feedback from a customer in NYC, who has an extremely high-end system featuring all Lamm electronics...
"Hi Pete,
As much as I enjoy listening to digital I always was aware of the weaknesses to analog. Scale, openness, and staging. I once had a top turntable and open reel system and heard 1st generation master tapes. You don't forget that. Because digital is the future it became a challenge to surpass that analog system. For sometime I realized the importance of the Ethernet cable. I've tried over a dozen from cat 6 to cat 8. From $20 to $900. They all sounded different and all lacked scale, openness, and staging. When I first heard your Ethernet cable I jumped from my chair. Finally, the music had breath, weight, analog size. It was closer to the night I heard Charlie Mingus at the Vanguard. Or MJQ at the Gate. It was just honest. Music, without getting bored. Pete, this is a great cable. You've given me hope to continue the challenge of digital cause I'm running out of time.
Well done,
Nick"
Cheers,
Pete