[windhoek]

Excellent Ted! It looks like adding a m/c preamp after the E28 (or similar) isn't really necessary, so I can just route front audio to my integrated and rear audio direct to a poweramp and use the Exasound to control volume during playback, while speaker setting adjusts can be done upstream by Jriver.

[windhoek]

I had a huge WTF moment earlier while considering options to get a 4.0 setup in place at the cost of software to apply EQ and as I've been watching Lillyhammer, starring Steven Van Zandt (from The Sopranos/ E Street Band), I did it in the style of an Italian-American gangster ala De Niro's typical character and said, with my face slightly screwed up on side, wha' da fuuk'.

Anyway, wha' da fuuk over, here why...

Because I want m/c from my PC and afaik, there aren't any AV Receivers that can accept multichannel audio via Async USB, the alternative is to buy a separate m/c DAC and feed it to two Teddy Pardo amps (i80a at the front and ST-60 at the rear). I'd also need software to make sure the sound is EQ'd between front and back and account for speaker distances etc, and the potential costs are staggering. So here's a break down of potential costs in my plan to have a 4.0 setup and only the rear speakers have been purchased (as well as front speakers and amp).

Rear Speakers: £700 (already purchased)
Poweramp for Rear Speakers: £900
m/c DAC: £2,500 (or more!), probably Exasound E28
EQ Software: £500 (Dirac Live RC
Mac Mini (my HTPC probably won't cope with the level of processing required): £400 or more, depending on model.

Like I say, wha' da fuuk

I rarely swear (apologies for any offence caused), but felt it appropriate to do so because although my view of cost/ value is somewhat subjective, it suddenly seems like a lot of dosh for a m/c setup.

[windhoek]

Oh, and that's not to say I won't go ahead with my plan, but I suspect it'll take a bit longer than anticipated

[windhoek]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm in the process of moving to a PC based 4.0 setup for m/c music. Until funds could allow the purchase of an Exasound E28 m/c DAC and volume control, I planned on using my OPPO 103D as source, digital processor and preamp with audio routed to stereo integrated amp (with AV Bypass) for front speakers and stereo poweramp for rear speakers.

Well, the stereo poweramp arrived a few days ago and with rabid excitement, I played Gaucho on SACD and frankly, it was a dreadful experience because there was very little cohesion between front and rear speakers, if any at all. It became clear very quickly that without some sort of DSP, my hopes for good sounding 4.0 m/c music would be dashed for the foreseeable future.

Even though I want to move to PC based setup for m/c music in the long term, I knew there was no way I could live with m/c the way it is and so yesterday I bought a (fairly cheap at £250) Marantz NR1504 AVR, which importantly, has Preouts for the front channels and adequate DSP trickery. I just ran the Audyessy setup wizard and played Gaucho and wow, what a difference. Suddenly I'm experiencing the sort of m/c magnificence I hoped for all along. In fact, it's so good, I might just stick with disc playback for m/c audio and leave my HTPC to play digital stereo and my TT vinyl. For such a smallish amount of cash (the quality of the other components in my system notwithstanding), my dream 4.0 has suddenly materialised

[windhoek]

I realised after posting yesterday I can (I think) connect my HTPC to my AVR via HDMI and so route m/c music to my AVR. I tried this last night, but it didn't work. Any guesses why not? Fwiw, I set Jriver 20 to show files with channels greater than 3 (all my m/c SACD ISOs showed) and selected HDMI Direct as output. I also set the number of channels to be output as 4 because I've only got 4 speakers, but maybe I should have selected 5.1 - in saying that though, I played Tomita's the Planets, a 4.0 m/c SACD, but still nothing came through to my AVR. It could however, play regular CD files.

[ted_b]

Windhoek, I find no evidence that your Marantz receiver does DSD, let alone DSD over HDMI.  BTW, why "channels greater than 3"?  You want "channels greater than 2".  There are many 3 channel multichannel SACDs (Nat King Cole series, RCA Living Stereo series, etc etc).

[windhoek]

Thanks Ted, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I thought I had set JR to output files as 24/176.4, but I guess selecting HDMI Direct means in essence, bitstreaming and bitstreaming DSD is no good because you're correct, my AVR doesn't support DSD. I'll rip a DVD-A in m/c FLAC and see whether I can route that to my AVR via HDMI and if yes, I need to figure out how to convert my SACD ISOs to (PCM) FLAC. If I need to do this, can JR do it? Can it be done on the fly?

The other option I suppose, is to buy another AVR such as the Marantz NR1605 which does support DSD. I've only had my current AVR since yesterday, so replacing it so soon seems somewhat frustrating.

Oh, and I meant to say 'greater than or equal to' three channels

[Phil A]

Windhoek, I find no evidence that your Marantz receiver does DSD, let alone DSD over HDMI. 

Per this and other sites it does not - http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-nr1504-receiver-review.86606/

I do know that in certain receivers several even though Marantz did not indicate DSD, they did them

[Phil A]

Thanks Ted, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I thought I had set JR to output files as 24/176.4, but I guess selecting HDMI Direct means in essence, bitstreaming and bitstreaming DSD is no good because you're correct, my AVR doesn't support DSD. I'll rip a DVD-A in m/c FLAC and see whether I can route that to my AVR via HDMI and if yes, I need to figure out how to convert my SACD ISOs to (PCM) FLAC. If I need to do this, can JR do it? Can it be done on the fly?

The other option I suppose, is to buy another AVR such as the Marantz NR1605 which does support DSD. I've only had my current AVR since yesterday, so replacing it so soon seems somewhat frustrating.

I believe the 1505 supports DSD as well.  With JRiver you can set it for sampling frequencies over 192kHz (e.g. DSD) to play them back at a different sampling frequency (e.g. 24/88.2)

[windhoek]

Thanks Phil, I'll try setting the output as 24/88.2 and see whether that works.

[windhoek]

Is it possible to output m/c audio via Optical to my AVR? I think I read that Optical has bandwidth limitations, but I'm not sure what they are exactly with regard to m/c audio. Obviously this would also involve conversion of DSD to PCM.

[windhoek]

Right, I think I have a plan. I bought the Marantz from Amazon and can simply return it as per UK distance selling rules which permit consumers to try out purchases and so all I need to do is return the 1504 and pay just the extra for the 1605 which has on-board wifi and can stream DSD over network. Even if it can't support m/c DSD over network, I should at least be able to use HDMI to stream m/c DSD and voila, I have a PC based system for stereo and m/c music, phew

Thanks Ted and Phil, I just needed a little help to figure out the problem and a solution. Fwiw, I only have space for a slim AVR, hence the need for a a low-profile one such as the Marantz.

[Phil A]

 Fwiw, I only have space for a slim AVR, hence the need for a a low-profile one such as the Marantz.

I understand that.  I have a couple of spare systems with that issue. One is more or less a guest room with old MoFi speakers and I ended up getting a Denon AVR-X1000 for its shallow depth.  Had a Pioneer 1120 in there and it was just too deep.  When I upgrade in another spare system, I'm hoping my old Marantz SR6003 will fit.  In another system, I just opted to use 2-channel as there really isn't space.

[windhoek]

I'm still working on my plan to have a m/c setup with a computer as source and am considering buying a Mac Mini because my current emachines HTPC (running JRiver) is old and although it can play the stereo layer of ISO files smoothly, it buffers from here to eternity when I try to play m/c ISO files. Basically, the eMachines just isn't up to the task of playing m/c SACD rips.

Are there any reasons why I shouldn't go for the Mac or what tips you can give to help me optimise it for m/c ISO file playback? Or, is there a better option than a mac mini at the same price (£569)? I reckon I'd need the Mac to be able to output SACD ISO file audio as 24/176.4 PCM via HDMI (or even 24/88.2) so my Marantz NR1504 can process it in my 4.0 setup.

Fwiw, if I'm buying the latest model, it would probably be the medium spec one with 1TB of storage, but I know older models are more user upgradeable.

Oh, I'd probably use the Mac Mini for Netflix too, so hopefully it would be up to that job too.

[windhoek]

My plan to use a computer as source for stereo and m/c SACD ISO playback has finally materialised because I bought a Mac Mini and after installing JRiver 20, m/c audio was up and running via HDMI to my AVR without any issues whatsoever. It was literally plug and play! Admittedly I had to set the audio output as 24/88.2 because the Mac Mini won't output anything higher than 24/96 (that's for both stereo and m/c content) and select m/c content in Jriver, but this took all of 10 seconds, so it's almost plug and play

I can easily recommend the Mac Mini as a small-form media source for m/c audio if you're planning on hooking it up to an AVR via HDMI and unless there's a big uptake in support for m/c audio via Async USB by AVR manufacturers, I think I've pretty much got stereo and m/c audio using a computer as source sorted.

Fwiw, I bought a 2012 Mac Mini refurb from Apple in case I wanted/ needed to increase the RAM from 4GB to 8GB or even 16GB (2014 Mac Minis are sealed units with the RAM soldered on, so that's not an option on the latest version), but 4GB seems perfectly adequate because there haven't been any issues with excessive buffering or such like, just plain smooth playback

My setup is now...

Digital (2.0):
Mac Mini (JRiver)>Marantz NR1504>Teddy Pardo i80a>ATC SCM7

Digital (4.0):
(f): Mac Mini>Marantz NR1504>Teddy Pardo i80a>ATC SCM7
(r): Mac Mini>Marantz NR1504>ATC SCM7
(c): no centre
(s): no sub

[audiventory]

1. Foobar2000 + SACD plugin + ASIO (for avoiding of resampling in operation system).

Advantage:
   1. Plug'n'play immediately
   2. No extra place on HDD

Disadvantage:
    "On fly" algorithms limited in computing resources and/or consume many computing power.


2. Extract to DSF or FLAC/WAV (multichannel or stereo treacks) via audio converter.

Disadvantages:
   1. Non-realtime extracting have significant time
   2. Extra place on HDD

Advantages:
   1. Allow resample to maximal sample rate of DAC
      with careful slow processing
      for avoiding "on fly" resampling anywhere (if it possible in current system).

   2. Lesser computing resources used
       Possible playback at old computers with maximal possible (what provide the audio converter) quality.

   3. Resample files (extracted from ISO) for playback at hardware media streamer (match for its native or maximal DSD's sample rate DSD64/128/256/512).

[windhoek]

I finally solved the HDMI handshake issues I've been frustrated with when using Jriver via HDMI to my AVR. Admittedly it's more of a work around than a solution per se, but it works nonetheless.

Playing music via HDMI works fine until the TV is turned off, whereupon playback stutters for a few seconds before resuming, and the same goes when the TV is turned on during playback. I used to turn off my TV's display to negate this issue (the TV would still be on), thereby ensuring the handshake remained active, but my new TV has the Display Off option buried deep within its settings menu, which is somewhat inconvenient when I simply want to press Play and listen to music.

The solution I stumbled upon last night however, is to set Jriver to launch on computer start up and use Jriver's Gizmo Android app to navigate within Jriver and control playback ... without even turning on the TV once. It's that simple.

My mac mini (running Windows 7 thanks to Bootcamp) is a dedicated HTPC and all it does is play music, so unless I'm ripping new music or want to watch visual content, there's no need to turn on my TV. For extra convenience, I've set it to hibernate/resume when the power button is pressed.

Although I'd still like future AVRs to support multichannel audio via async USB, there's nothing to indicate that's going to happen anytime soon, so this solution will tide me over until than and hopefully you too if you're in a similar situation
Derek

Update: It seems I was premature when I said I'd discovered a solution via Gizmo because doing so brings about another problem: Gizmo doesn't seem to show multichannel content of SACD ISO rips. It recognises 5.1 blu-ray audio and DVD-A rips no problem, but it will only play the stereo portion of stereo/multichannel SACD rips. I'm sure it would be able to identify multichannel DFF files, for example, but ISO files are a no no it seems, so it looks like I'll need to turn on my TV to play multichannel SACDs lol. Close...but no cigar

[john925]

I use a MCH USB DDC from exD Audio.  So my multichannel setup is:

Computer running WS2102 R2, AudiophileOptimizer, HQPlayer, Fidelizer, Jplay(when using stereo) I connect to exD DDC and then ST Optical to EMM Labs DAC6e SE for MCH DSD playback.  My pre is EMM Labs Switchman3. 

[windhoek]

It seems I was premature when I said I was premature because Gizmo does indeed list the multichannel versions of stereo/multichannel SACD ISOs; all I had to do was scroll down to the bottom of the stereo version of whatever I'm listening to and hey presto, the multichannel track list is right there in plain view, doh!

[ted_b]

That's why I create an ISO view (mentioned back on page one but 18 months ago); I have 2 of them, one for my multichannel setup, one for my 2 channel.  The rules are simple:
file type is SACD (that's what JRiver calls SACD ISOs)
channels equal or greater than 3 (for my multichannel version)
channels equal or less than 2 (for my 2 channel setup)