Your experience with Salkstream & Ethernet power line adaptors?

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Saturn94

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I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger on a new Salkstream player and have been discussing with Jim the different options of connecting with my home network.

Jim said the preferred connection in order of best to worst is;

1.  Direct connection via Ethernet cable
2.  Ethernet over power line adaptor
3.  Wifi via a wireless bridge or similar device

Option 1 May be possible for me though it would be difficult and unsightly due to the layout of my house.  So I'm considering option 2.

I'd love to know if any Salkstream owners are using Ethernet powering adaptors and your experience with such devices.  Are they reliable?  Are they fast enough for downloading music files from the computer to the Salkstream?

Part of me says to deal with the negatives of running an Ethernet cable for the benefit of simplicity, reliability and connection speed.  However, it would be nice and simple if I could just plug in a couple devices without sacrificing reliability and speed too much.

Please share your experiences and help me decide.

Thanks. :)

ccklone

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Hey Now,

I am not using Salkstream with Powerline Ethernet, but am using a Raspberry Pi2 with Netgear Powerline Ethernet. It is from one end of the house to the other (ranch style). It works very well. I use a TP-Link 5 port desktop switch in the bedroom and have an Airport Express plugged into it to extend the wifi network with the RPi2. The RPi2 sounded better than the AEX wired or wireless. With the RPi2 configured with HQPlayer NAA I am able to stream music up sampled to DSD128 with no dropouts, runs for hours on end with no issues. I use satellite internet service which is slower (and more expensive) than cable or DSL, and I stream Tidal with no issues, except for bad weather. My house was built in 1977 with copper wire, some homes around here used aluminum wiring. I don't have a basement, only a crawl space - the Powerline solution was easier than crawling under the house.

--
Finest kind,
Chris

PSB Guy

I'm using a D-Link DHP-701AV powerline ethernet kit with my Salkstreamer. It installed in literally a few seconds and has worked flawlessly for months now. I rip CDs on my Windows PC upstairs over the network directly to my Salkstreamer downstairs, using dBpoweramp. The Salkstreamer just shows up as another drive in dBpoweramp. There is no lag at all, it's just like ripping CDs directly to the Windows PC. Given the choice, I would definitely rather use a direct ethernet connection, but doing that properly (meaning neatly through walls and ceilings) can be very expensive.

Cornelis

toddc2

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I have exchanged a few emails with Jim on the SalkStreamer but have not purchased yet. I did install a power line Ethernet adapter to test out the throughput into my basement listening room from my second story router locatation. I ran Roon locally from my MacBookPro directly into my DAC with Roon GUI over WiFi/Ethernet power line. This worked really well.

I think the local storage of the SalkStreamer with control over WiFi/Ethernet power line is a good solution since the music playback is local and not travelling over the power line.

Todd

Stercom

I think the local storage of the SalkStreamer with control over WiFi/Ethernet power line is a good solution since the music playback is local and not travelling over the power line.

Todd

Agreed.

I've been stewing over the Salkstreamer. I have the same issue - would need to use a Ethernet power line adapter.......keep the conversation going!

Saturn94

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I have exchanged a few emails with Jim on the SalkStreamer but have not purchased yet. I did install a power line Ethernet adapter to test out the throughput into my basement listening room from my second story router locatation. I ran Roon locally from my MacBookPro directly into my DAC with Roon GUI over WiFi/Ethernet power line. This worked really well.

I think the local storage of the SalkStreamer with control over WiFi/Ethernet power line is a good solution since the music playback is local and not travelling over the power line.

Todd

I'd expect that just sending control commands from my iPad wouldn't be an issue for Ethernet power line adaptor.  I'm also wondering how reliable it would be for moving or ripping music files to the Salkstream from the computer (different room, different floor) as well as streaming music via AirPlay from my iPad/iPhone.

Saturn94

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Agreed.

I've been stewing over the Salkstreamer. I have the same issue - would need to use a Ethernet power line adapter.......keep the conversation going!

Yes, keep it going!

Right now I'm still leaning towards installing an Ethernet cable for piece of mind.  If I do that, then the question is do I go with CAT5e, CAT6, or CAT6a?  If cable length matters, it will be about 70ft.

So many questions!

Edit: I see there is CAT7 cable now.  I'm guessing this would really be overkill.
Edit2:  And I see there are shielded and up shielded cables......which would I need?  I have a headache now.

phoward

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FWIW - I'm quite happy using wifi to connect airport express to splayer via Ethernet. Dramatic reduction in noise from Amarra on Mac with direct USB connection to DAC. And no tearing apart the house to lay new Ethernet cable.  Would be curious to hear if there is a dramatic improvement in sound quality by running Ethernet direct (but afraid of the work required to get it done :roll:)

Good luck!
Pete

Saturn94

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FWIW - I'm quite happy using wifi to connect airport express to splayer via Ethernet. Dramatic reduction in noise from Amarra on Mac with direct USB connection to DAC. And no tearing apart the house to lay new Ethernet cable.  Would be curious to hear if there is a dramatic improvement in sound quality by running Ethernet direct (but afraid of the work required to get it done :roll:)

Good luck!
Pete

I wouldn't exoect any difference in SQ with the Streamplayer since music is sent to the DAC or processor via wire.  Only the commands to control the player are being sent wirelessly.

Gzerro

I use a Linksys/Cisco power line Ethernet adapter. Everything, including steaming hirez files, transferring files to my local player, and using remote control software on iPad for my Sony HAPZ1 player works fine.

The only problem I have had is the unit sometimes will generate a bit a noise if too close to interconnects or other equipment. A quick reset solves the issue, or if I just shift things around to give it more room.

For just a controller I would have no hesitation. For streaming music I am sure some would claim it isn't ideal, but it sounds the same to me either way.

toddc2

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I'd expect that just sending control commands from my iPad wouldn't be an issue for Ethernet power line adaptor.  I'm also wondering how reliable it would be for moving or ripping music files to the Salkstream from the computer (different room, different floor) as well as streaming music via AirPlay from my iPad/iPhone.

When I installed the power line adaptor I tested the link and was getting a reliable 150 Mbps which would be more than enough to rip and store. I'm pretty sure I could stream any 2 channel audio format with that throughput but I've been hesitant to try it as I'm not sure if that data stream would introduce noise on my AC lines (I assume so).


Pneumonic


The only problem I have had is the unit sometimes will generate a bit a noise if too close to interconnects or other equipment. A quick reset solves the issue, or if I just shift things around to give it more room.
This highlight's one of the possible issues with power line adapters; introduction of system noise via interconnects.

Keep in mind that such adapters act as a small radio transmitter that is using your mains wiring as an antenna to transmit radio frequencies (heard as noise) which can quite easily get into your low level devices (such as preamps, tube ones especially) via the interconnects, which act as antennae.   

If this is the case, using high quality (ie round) braided shield is imperative.

Jonathon Janusz

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Yes, keep it going!

Right now I'm still leaning towards installing an Ethernet cable for piece of mind.  If I do that, then the question is do I go with CAT5e, CAT6, or CAT6a?  If cable length matters, it will be about 70ft.

So many questions!

Edit: I see there is CAT7 cable now.  I'm guessing this would really be overkill.
Edit2:  And I see there are shielded and up shielded cables......which would I need?  I have a headache now.

Don't get too much of a headache over this. It looks like a lot, but it is simpler than it looks. :) 

These are each newer and newer revisions for the computer industry specification for the same kind of basic network cable.  First, you are fine at 70ft; these cables can be up to 100m in a single run (say from whatever magic box gets your Internet into the house to the streamer in this example).  Just be mindful of the path you're pulling the wire through to make sure it doesn't get kinked, twisted, or bent at an extreme angle somewhere along the run so that the wires inside the cable don't get pinched, stretched, or stressed.

Next, any of them will work for this application, the difference is in the maximum speed the wire can send data, but that might be limited by what devices the cable is connecting together anyway if you have some older computer network equipment.  Note that the Salk Streamer can send data up to 1Gbps, and a lot of off the shelf home network equipment is running that speed these days, so if you aren't already at that speed in the house you likely will be shortly due to normal hardware upgrades.

[NOTE: Please, for sake of this specific post, let's avoid the usual audiophile discussions about cables and assume wire is wire and bits are bits.  This post is just meant to explain what to get to make it all work. - Thanks!]

To use something you're probably more familiar with, the difference is similar to the way USB 1.1 - USB2 - USB3 work.  All of the different USB cables are backward compatible, interchangeable to a point, and the later versions can run faster than the earlier ones limited by the slowest link in the chain. 

All these network cables are the same way, in order of: Cat5 - Cat5e - Cat6 - Cat6a - Cat7, each varying in maximum speed data can move:

Cat5 can run at 100Mbps
Cat5e can run at 100Mbps and up to 1Gbps with some limitations
Cat6 can run at 1Gbps
Cat6a can run at 1Gbps, and up to 10Gbps with some limitations
Cat7 can run at 10Gbps

[Just an FYI, but there is currently a Cat7a specification, and the Cat8 specification is in the works, moving up to 40Gbps speeds.]

What you end up putting in is really a function of how much money you want to spend on the project and how far "future proof" you want to make it (by this it is assumed you are going to want to run even faster network speeds than you might have going now).  I won't speculate on costs or pricing on cable, but just remember any of them will work, and because the Salk Streamer can run 1Gbps on its built-in network card, I probably wouldn't put less than Cat6 cabling in if I were putting it in new today unless I was really desperate in scraping by on the lowest budget possible.

EDIT - I forgot your question about shielding.  All of them are shielded in some way per their specifications, and usually the bulk cable meant for in wall runs has additional shielding for various reasons (usually starting with reducing issues brought up earlier with RF interference from close proximity electrical power wires).  For this specific purpose, more is probably better, but remember the cable will be be more physically stiff with the additional shielding.

Saturn94

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Great info, thanks. :)

Btw, I'm not computer savvy so I don't know the differences in the USB options...lol.  :oops:

I can't run the cable inside the walls (it'll run "on wall" and along baseboards).  Would this negate the need for extra shielding since it won't be running alongside power lines?

Jim said CAT5e would be fine, but I hear you about future proofing a bit.  Our current router, Netgear N300 WNR 2000 v2 purchased years ago, doesn't offer gigabit speeds as far as could tell (I had a hard time finding LAN speed specs on it).  But certainly if we replace it so time with a new on it would offer gigabit LAN speed.

The price difference between CAT5e and CAT6 isn't enough to worry about.  I plan to order from Bluejeans cable.  I know they are more expensive than what you find on Amazon, but I like that they assemble and test every cable to assure its up to spec (BJs says many cheap cables don't meet the spec they are rated for).  I've been happy with the quality of cables I've bought from them in the past.

Everyone seems to agree that running a cable is the best option for performance and reliability.  Also, it seems the effectiveness and reliability of power line adaptors really depends on each house's unique setup.  So as of now, my plan is to try to install an Ethernet cable if possible and consider using a power line adaptor as plan B should I have too much trouble installing a cable.

Peter J

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Saturn, is there some structural problem with running cables in wall? Renting perhaps?

 As someone who has fished many a thing inside existing walls floors and ceilings, it can be done without huge investment, even if you pay someone else.

Jonathon Janusz

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I can't run the cable inside the walls (it'll run "on wall" and along baseboards).  Would this negate the need for extra shielding since it won't be running alongside power lines?

Do you NEED it?  Probably not, just like our systems don't NEED power conditioning, isolation devices, etc.  If the cost isn't an issue, and it doesn't cause the cable to be too stiff to get it where it needs to go, your call either way.

Quote
Jim said CAT5e would be fine, but I hear you about future proofing a bit.  Our current router, Netgear N300 WNR 2000 v2 purchased years ago, doesn't offer gigabit speeds as far as could tell (I had a hard time finding LAN speed specs on it).  But certainly if we replace it so time with a new on it would offer gigabit LAN speed.

I just looked up the manual for your router, and you're right in that your wired ports only go up to 100Mbps, so Cat6 wouldn't get you any speed improvement, and at 70ft you're just about at the edge of what Cat5e is "officially" rated at to be able to push 1Gbps (anecdotally, some people can get more, others start having issues), so again if Cat6 is negligible price-wise, I'd go that way just to be on the safe side for when a new, faster router gets put in.

Quote
The price difference between CAT5e and CAT6 isn't enough to worry about.  I plan to order from Bluejeans cable.  I know they are more expensive than what you find on Amazon, but I like that they assemble and test every cable to assure its up to spec (BJs says many cheap cables don't meet the spec they are rated for).  I've been happy with the quality of cables I've bought from them in the past.

Great!

Quote
Everyone seems to agree that running a cable is the best option for performance and reliability.  Also, it seems the effectiveness and reliability of power line adaptors really depends on each house's unique setup.  So as of now, my plan is to try to install an Ethernet cable if possible and consider using a power line adaptor as plan B should I have too much trouble installing a cable.

Cool.  Again, don't sweat it; your situation looks pretty straight forward.  Not much different than running a long interconnect along a wall between a preamp and amp.  Just make sure if you're going around and through a doorway or two that you don't pinch the wire in the door, and try not to tack the cable down into a hard 90 degree turn along the run if you can avoid it - give it a more gentle curve around the bends if you can.  Also, check to see if BJC has different color options for the outer jacket of the cable; it comes in a lot of colors depending on vendor, but the most common color used is a bright blue.  If you are running it along the baseboard, if they've got a less obtrusive color available (black maybe?) it may look better and you'll be happier looking at the end result when your done.

Don't worry, man.  You've got this.  :thumb:

Saturn94

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Saturn, is there some structural problem with running cables in wall? Renting perhaps?

 As someone who has fished many a thing inside existing walls floors and ceilings, it can be done without huge investment, even if you pay someone else.

The layout of the house is the issue.  The router/computer/etc is upstairs in a spare bedroom.  The AV system is in the living room/dining room combo downstairs; 3 walls are exterior walls, concrete slap floor, and cathedral ceiling (no access from above).

The spare bedroom upstairs does share an interior wall with the dining room section, so I plan to come through that wall, down along a corner, then along the baseboard to the other side of the room to reach the AV rack.  The shared wall is above the right door opening in this pic




Saturn94

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Do you NEED it?  Probably not, just like our systems don't NEED power conditioning, isolation devices, etc.  If the cost isn't an issue, and it doesn't cause the cable to be too stiff to get it where it needs to go, your call either way.

I just looked up the manual for your router, and you're right in that your wired ports only go up to 100Mbps, so Cat6 wouldn't get you any speed improvement, and at 70ft you're just about at the edge of what Cat5e is "officially" rated at to be able to push 1Gbps (anecdotally, some people can get more, others start having issues), so again if Cat6 is negligible price-wise, I'd go that way just to be on the safe side for when a new, faster router gets put in.

Great!

Cool.  Again, don't sweat it; your situation looks pretty straight forward.  Not much different than running a long interconnect along a wall between a preamp and amp.  Just make sure if you're going around and through a doorway or two that you don't pinch the wire in the door, and try not to tack the cable down into a hard 90 degree turn along the run if you can avoid it - give it a more gentle curve around the bends if you can.  Also, check to see if BJC has different color options for the outer jacket of the cable; it comes in a lot of colors depending on vendor, but the most common color used is a bright blue.  If you are running it along the baseboard, if they've got a less obtrusive color available (black maybe?) it may look better and you'll be happier looking at the end result when your done.

Don't worry, man.  You've got this.  :thumb:

Thanks for the tips.  It's helping my confidence. :D

Peter J

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The layout of the house is the issue.  The router/computer/etc is upstairs in a spare bedroom.  The AV system is in the living room/dining room combo downstairs; 3 walls are exterior walls, concrete slap floor, and cathedral ceiling (no access from above).

The spare bedroom upstairs does share an interior wall with the dining room section, so I plan to come through that wall, down along a corner, then along the baseboard to the other side of the room to reach the AV rack.  The shared wall is above the right door opening in this pic





Assuming I'm understanding the problem, what about running inside wall to right of doorway between rooms, RJ45 receptacles at same height off floor as elec. receptacles both rooms. Then  run patch cables from recep to router in spare room and recep to streamer in living area? I guess I'm just thinking about the cable running down the corner and across doorway opening. Even in our old house that just wouldn't be something I could live with, but that's me.

FWIW, I was a wireless near-hater until I installed a better network system which has performed flawlessly...enough to make me think about prior position on hard wiring.

Saturn94

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Assuming I'm understanding the problem, what about running inside wall to right of doorway between rooms, RJ45 receptacles at same height off floor as elec. receptacles both rooms. Then  run patch cables from recep to router in spare room and recep to streamer in living area? I guess I'm just thinking about the cable running down the corner and across doorway opening. Even in our old house that just wouldn't be something I could live with, but that's me.

FWIW, I was a wireless near-hater until I installed a better network system which has performed flawlessly...enough to make me think about prior position on hard wiring.

I did think of that.  It would be a challenge running it in-wall from the second story to the first story since the wall isn't open between floors.  Then there's the issue of running a wire across the doorway to the kitchen (can't go the other direction and AV rack is on opposite side of the room.  I think I'm ok running the wire down that corner and around the sliding glass door to the left.   I'll look for some kind of conduit to make it look neat.  I've done this before with pretty good results.

Wireless would have been great, but Jim no longer offers that option in the Salkstream.  I could use a wireless bridge, but I'm really trying to minimize/avoid having to add additional equipment/complexity to the system (more to go wrong), hence my desire to just run a wire.  If it turns out I'm not happy with how running a wire works out, I can always switch to a power line device or a wireless bridge.