DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass

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mattsf

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DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« on: 25 Feb 2014, 09:40 pm »
Hi all,

I'm new to the forum - and incredibly excited about playing DSD music without and optical disks. It's like living in the future :-).

Like any good audiophile I'm taking the opportunity to re-examine my system, and I've realized that I now will only have 1 source for serious music listen and can have a very simple 2-channel system:

Computer -> DSD Dac with Pre-amp -> Amp -> Speakers

This system is part of a 5.1 home theater system, so there needs to be an analog in on the dac/preamp, and it needs a bypass mode for its volume control.

Computer -> DSD Dac with Pre-amp -> Amp -> Speakers
                              |
HT Preamp ----------

It seems like the Mytek covers these requirements very well. I'm curious if anyone has any other dsd dac/preamps that they would recommend, or if there are any caveats / gotchas to consider in a setup like this?

Thanks!

ted_b

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #1 on: 26 Feb 2014, 02:52 pm »
Welcome.  I have long been a 2 channel guy in a 5.1 (and 7.1 movie) system.  I have spent lot so hours/experience/thoughts/$$ on making sure I have the best 2 channel system I can, while living amongst the HT world.   I have succeeded thanks mainly to my acoustic guru, Jeff Hedback, and his wonderful treatment designs.  My setup is in my system link.  My acoustic makeover is in the thread called Show Us Your Room Pics (or something like that).

I'm not at all trying to brag...I am simply trying to say that I empathize, and of the 100+ DSD-capable dacs out there you are now limiting yourself to maybe one or two of them (and limiting your sonics as well, as very few DAC/preamps have a decent preamp).  Believe me, I've listened to dozens.  The only one with a true HT bypass that comes to mind is the Wyred4Sound one, by the way.  Several have an analog in, but most are not bypassed.   I own three Myteks (as being a beta customer, good friend of Michal's, and a prototype for the 3 Mytek stack for 5.1 multichannel DSD surround that I wrote about here).  As good as the Myteks are, they are not great preamps and their analog ins are only ok (although if you are doing movies only, it's not bad..if you are doing hirez PCM surround you are challenged a bit).  But to their defense, for $1600 that is not what they were built for. 

Russtafarian

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #2 on: 26 Feb 2014, 08:32 pm »
I use the Benchmark DAC2 HGC in the exact way that you describe.  What makes it such a good value at the $2k price point is its analog line stage.  I use one analog input for my phono preamp and the other in HT Bypass mode for multi-channel playback.  I know the sound of my phono rig very well.  The fact that vinyl playback took a nice step forward in clarity and dynamics when I moved to the DAC2 as a preamp says a lot about the quality of the line stage.

The DAC2 doesn't decode double DSD.  And it doesn't have the bloom and harmonic richness that a tube output stage can produce.  Other than that, the combination of sound quality and functionality is pretty compelling at its price point.

Russ

johsti

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #3 on: 26 Feb 2014, 08:41 pm »
Oppo 105 Darbee.  You can also use it with your HT.


mattsf

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #4 on: 26 Feb 2014, 09:16 pm »
Thanks Ted for your detailed response. How is the pre-amp in the Wyred4Sound?

I'd like to keep the total cost of this part of the system to around $1600. So my choices would by to go with the Mytek or Wyred4Sound with a pre-amp, or to get something the the korg teac dac, with a seperate pre-amp in the $600-800 range (maybe an Emotiva XMC-1). I don't need to switch sources, so the pre-amp would only be acting as a volume attenuator. Do you have any thoughts on this trade-off?



Welcome.  I have long been a 2 channel guy in a 5.1 (and 7.1 movie) system.  I have spent lot so hours/experience/thoughts/$$ on making sure I have the best 2 channel system I can, while living amongst the HT world.   I have succeeded thanks mainly to my acoustic guru, Jeff Hedback, and his wonderful treatment designs.  My setup is in my system link.  My acoustic makeover is in the thread called Show Us Your Room Pics (or something like that).

I'm not at all trying to brag...I am simply trying to say that I empathize, and of the 100+ DSD-capable dacs out there you are now limiting yourself to maybe one or two of them (and limiting your sonics as well, as very few DAC/preamps have a decent preamp).  Believe me, I've listened to dozens.  The only one with a true HT bypass that comes to mind is the Wyred4Sound one, by the way.  Several have an analog in, but most are not bypassed.   I own three Myteks (as being a beta customer, good friend of Michal's, and a prototype for the 3 Mytek stack for 5.1 multichannel DSD surround that I wrote about here).  As good as the Myteks are, they are not great preamps and their analog ins are only ok (although if you are doing movies only, it's not bad..if you are doing hirez PCM surround you are challenged a bit).  But to their defense, for $1600 that is not what they were built for.

ted_b

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #5 on: 26 Feb 2014, 09:17 pm »
I use the Benchmark DAC2 HGC in the exact way that you describe.  What makes it such a good value at the $2k price point is its analog line stage.  I use one analog input for my phono preamp and the other in HT Bypass mode for multi-channel playback.  I know the sound of my phono rig very well.  The fact that vinyl playback took a nice step forward in clarity and dynamics when I moved to the DAC2 as a preamp says a lot about the quality of the line stage.

The DAC2 doesn't decode double DSD.  And it doesn't have the bloom and harmonic richness that a tube output stage can produce.  Other than that, the combination of sound quality and functionality is pretty compelling at its price point.

Russ

Russ, wow...forgot that DAC!  My bad.  Good info.

mattsf

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #6 on: 26 Feb 2014, 09:26 pm »
Thanks Russ. I'll definitely put the Benchmark on the candidate list. You are happy with its sound?

I use the Benchmark DAC2 HGC in the exact way that you describe.  What makes it such a good value at the $2k price point is its analog line stage.  I use one analog input for my phono preamp and the other in HT Bypass mode for multi-channel playback.  I know the sound of my phono rig very well.  The fact that vinyl playback took a nice step forward in clarity and dynamics when I moved to the DAC2 as a preamp says a lot about the quality of the line stage.

The DAC2 doesn't decode double DSD.  And it doesn't have the bloom and harmonic richness that a tube output stage can produce.  Other than that, the combination of sound quality and functionality is pretty compelling at its price point.

Russ

mattsf

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #7 on: 26 Feb 2014, 09:27 pm »
The oppo won't work because it can't do volume attenuation while playing DSD. I have one (the non-darbee) but I'm planning to swap it out for a lower cost blu-ray player and whatever dsd dac I end up choosing.


Oppo 105 Darbee.  You can also use it with your HT.

dminches

Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #8 on: 26 Feb 2014, 09:28 pm »
I have succeeded thanks mainly to my acoustic guru, Jeff Hedback, and his wonderful treatment designs.  My setup is in my system link.  My acoustic makeover is in the thread called Show Us Your Room Pics (or something like that).

Not to go too far off topic, but I second the comments about Jeff.  He made my room sound amazing.

ted_b

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #9 on: 26 Feb 2014, 09:46 pm »
Not to go too far off topic, but I second the comments about Jeff.  He made my room sound amazing.

David, I did NOT know you used Jeff.  I love the guy.  Here is his work, and although the HAR slats for the ceiling cloud and side wall diffusers are the most prominent,. it's his 400 lb MAT (membrane absorber trap...i.e floating wall) concealed behind my video screen that cleaned up my 2 channel soundstage like nothing I'd every experienced.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=53699.msg893756#msg893756

I mention all this cuz separating 2 channel from HT is not easy, but can be done.

Russtafarian

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #10 on: 26 Feb 2014, 10:11 pm »
Quote
Thanks Russ. I'll definitely put the Benchmark on the candidate list. You are happy with its sound?

Yes, quite happy.  I compared it head-to-head with the Mytek.  Very close.  Benchmark was just a touch more open and extended.  I also compared it head-to-head with a DSD upgraded Ayre universal player (via USB).  The Ayre exhibited a higher level of refinement in the mids and highs compared to the Benchmark.  I was really impressed.  Of course to replicate the DAC/Preamp functionality of the Benchmark with Ayre gear takes you into five figure territory price-wise. 

Russ

dburna

Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #11 on: 26 Feb 2014, 10:19 pm »
David, I did NOT know you used Jeff.  I love the guy.  Here is his work, and although the HAR slats for the ceiling cloud and side wall diffusers are the most prominent,. it's his 400 lb MAT (membrane absorber trap...i.e floating wall) concealed behind my video screen that cleaned up my 2 channel soundstage like nothing I'd every experienced.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=53699.msg893756#msg893756

I mention all this cuz separating 2 channel from HT is not easy, but can be done.

Ted_b, that is one great freakin' looking audio room.  I am not generally a fan of the aesthetics most people employ in their dedicated rooms (too much beige, usually sterile looking), but this one is a beauty.  If it sounds as good as it looks, I am sure you are one happy camper.  Am betting that those SP Techs don't hurt your enjoyment, either.

Best,  -dB

ted_b

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #12 on: 26 Feb 2014, 10:31 pm »
Thanks!  Since then the 2 channel equipment is now up front (eases the short cabling issues) and the SP Tech Revs are about a foot and a half further into the room.

Mattsf, the more I think about it the more we need to find you a deal on the Benchmark that Russ has.  I disliked their Benchmark 1 a lot, and have to award them the turnaround sound of the year award with their Benchmark 2 series of DACs.  A warm but neutral-enough sounding DAC that is very very nice (I like warm, by the way, assuming it really means colorful, lots of timbre and tone, with good resolution but not microscopic that often over analyzes).  And you need to trust Russ's ears as far as the internal preamp goes.

dminches

Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #13 on: 26 Feb 2014, 10:52 pm »
Ted, you sent me to Jeff!!!

Here's the finished product:






ted_b

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #14 on: 26 Feb 2014, 11:26 pm »
David, I turned 60 last Tuesday, and now I am being confirmed that I am senile.   :lol:

Nice room!!

dminches

Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #15 on: 27 Feb 2014, 01:50 am »
Happy 60th!


mattsf

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #16 on: 27 Feb 2014, 06:37 pm »
Super. I'm glad there is a good component out there close to my budget. Also, I'm a big fan of the less is more approach, so one component instead of two is a bonus.

I'll keep an eye on Augiogon and ebay for a used unit. If you see a deal to be had and think of it, please do let me know.

Is the floating wall in your media room a drywall attached with floating brackets? I'm also planning a remodel and the room with this system will be down to the studs, so it may be relatively inexpensive to do a treatment like that.



Thanks!  Since then the 2 channel equipment is now up front (eases the short cabling issues) and the SP Tech Revs are about a foot and a half further into the room.

Mattsf, the more I think about it the more we need to find you a deal on the Benchmark that Russ has.  I disliked their Benchmark 1 a lot, and have to award them the turnaround sound of the year award with their Benchmark 2 series of DACs.  A warm but neutral-enough sounding DAC that is very very nice (I like warm, by the way, assuming it really means colorful, lots of timbre and tone, with good resolution but not microscopic that often over analyzes).  And you need to trust Russ's ears as far as the internal preamp goes.

mattsf

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #17 on: 27 Feb 2014, 06:39 pm »
I was just looking over the Stereophile review of the benchmark, and it says that "the DAC2's volume control combines active analog gain control and passive low-impedance attenuators in the analog realm with a 32-bit digital DSP gain control for digital signals".

I wonder if this means that it converts DSD signals into 32-bit PCM for the pre-amp. That's not ideal from what I understand.

Cacophonix

Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #18 on: 27 Feb 2014, 08:58 pm »
If you can wait, Oppo HA-1 might be an interesting option.

http://www.oppodigital.com/future/HA-1_Headphone_Amplifier.aspx

Russtafarian

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Re: DSD DAC with Preamp and bypass
« Reply #19 on: 27 Feb 2014, 09:04 pm »
Quote
I wonder if this means that it converts DSD signals into 32-bit PCM for the pre-amp. That's not ideal from what I understand.

The question of what goes on inside the chip when decoding a DSD bitstream has been a hot topic.  Ted can certainly attest to that. 

I don't pretend to understand this stuff, but here's John Siau's explanation of how the DAC2 handles volume control.  John, for those who don't know, is the designer/engineer for the DAC2.

Quote
MW: How do you handle volume control in that final output stage? Do you convert to analog and then turn it up and down.

JS: We actually don’t. We do process that at the high sample rate and we have multiple 1-bit converters that are available to us. So the increase in word length that we get as a function of that volume control makes use of the redundant 1-bit converters that we have running in parallel.

MW: I see.

JS: So we’re not converting it…in a way you could look at that as if it’s PCM because there’s multiple 1-bit converters summed together in the analog domain. But that’s what you have to do to get volume control to work. The good thing is we don’t take it from 1-bit to multi-bit and back to 1-bit before we convert it to analog.

MW: Yep, as you were saying before.

JS: Instead of sending identical DSD signals to sixteen balanced 1-bit converters that are wired in parallel, we start sending different DSD signals to reduce the signal amplitude. All summing occurs in the analog domain. It is very cool!

This is sourced from Mark Waldrep's interview with John.  http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=74  There are potions of the interview that have kicked up some dust in past discussions, but this section is quite informative.  No need to get into the rest of it and take this thread off-topic.

Russ