AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: Russtafarian on 27 Aug 2013, 11:11 pm
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DSD files can be played by a Squeezebox Touch (SBT)! For those (like me) who love their SBT but left it behind to get into DSD playback, this is awesome news.
The key to making this work is to reformat DSD files (DSF or DFF) as DoP (Digital over PCM) FLAC files. Once this is done, Logitech Media Server (LMS) thinks the DSD file is a 24/176 PCM file and sends it to the DAC like usual. The DSD DAC recognizes it as a DoP formatted file and decodes it as native DSD. Pretty cool! This method is not limited to the SBT/LMS platform. It will work with any media platform that will stream 24/176 FLAC files to a USB or SPDIF digital interface.
Important Note (9/9/13): In order for DoP files to play back properly with a compatible DAC, the files must be streamed as bit-perfect PCM. This is true for SBT/LMS or PC via USB playback. This means that the software volume control (SBT or otherwise) must be at 100% and there should be no DSP plug-ins in the PCM streaming path.
The hardware setup is pretty easy. The downside is this requires creating a duplicate set of DSD files that are formatted as DoP encoded 24/176 FLAC files. BTW, always keep your original DSF and DFF files, even if you create DoP encoded copies of them. This means you will need additional disk space for the new reformatted DSD files. The DoP encoded FLAC files are the same size as the original DSF or DFF files. It’s up to the SBT user to determine if the time, effort, and cost to reformat files and add more storage capacity is worth it to play back DSD from the SBT.
I have verified that this process works with my SBT and Benchmark DAC2 using both USB and SPDIF connections. Though I haven’t tried it, I’m pretty sure this process will not work for double DSD due to the sample rate limitations of the SBT. What I’ve done here is piece together information from various audio bulletin board sources to document the steps to make this work.
1. DAC Compatibility
First determine if your DSD DAC will play DSD files using the DoP protocol. The DSD Database maintained by Jesus R and Ted B is the go-to resource for this. Check the DoP Input column for your DAC to find out what inputs are DoP compatible. For most DACs it will be the USB input. Some DACs (like my Benchmark) also have DoP compatible SPDIF inputs. Link to the DSD Database:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0)
Compatibility Notes:
- Russtafarian's Benchmark DAC2 works with both USB and SPDIF inputs (8/27/13)
- bprice2 reports SBT EDO works with the DoP USB input of Teac UD-501 when used with a USB 2.0 hub. (9/9/13)
2. Enhanced Digital Output for the Squeezebox Touch
The stock SBT is limited to streaming sample rates up to 24/96. DoP requires 24/176 streaming capability to work. EDO to the rescue!
The "Enhanced Digital Output" (EDO) app allows the Squeezebox Touch to stream sample rates up to 24/192 to a compatible DAC. EDO is found in the main 3rd party apps list and can be installed with the following steps:
1) Ensure your Squeezebox Touch is running 7.7.x or later firmware
2) Go to Apps Gallery -> 3rd Party Apps on the touch screen
3) Deselect the "recommended applets only" option, so that you see a longer list of apps
4) Select "Enhanced Digital Output" and select it for installation
5) Your touch should download the app, reboot, then download a new custom linux kernel and reboot again
6) You should now get a list of possible output devices - this should include "Digital Output" and your USB Dac if it is plugged in, select the appropriate output
7) Touch should reboot again and then be ready to start playing with the selected output
If you want to change the output go to Setting > Audio Settings > Digital Output; if you want to change some of the advanced options go to Settings > Advanced > Digital Output.
Update 9/13/13: AC member holzohr has provided us with a link to the EDO compatibility list. Thank you! This is a great resource for determining if a DAC will work with EDO.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0)
Please note that if you perform a firmware update, then the app and kernel will need to be reinstalled, this should be automated just requiring you to install the app again or to have the "reinstall after update" option selected from the 3rd party apps list.
3. Use Foobar As A DSF to DoP File Converter
For this step, Foobar is used as a file converter, not a media player. These instructions are for a Windows PC since that’s what I use. You may already have Foobar and FLAC installed on your PC.
1. Install Foobar2000: http://www.foobar2000.org/
2. Install FLAC Frontend: http://download.cnet.com/windows/seek-s-encoder-frontends/3260-20_4-10055779.html?tag=rb_content;contentBody
3. Download the "foo_input_packeddsd.dll" file and place it in the C:\Program Files\foobar2000\components folder: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4jZ4NDGECzEczBjYVByNUdjdDg/edit
4. Start Foobar and go to "File->Preferences ->Components" to make sure "foo_input_packeddsd.dll" shows up in the installed components box.
5. Go to "File->Preferences ->Tools->SACD" and set the following configuration:
- ASIO Driver Mode: DSD
- PCM Sample Rate: 176400
- DSD2PCM mode: DSD over PCM
- Click on "Enable Tags"
Note: Foobar may need to be restarted for these setting to load for conversion.
6. Use "File->Open” to load DSF or DFF files for conversion into a Foobar playlist. Highlight all the files in the playlist, right click and select "Convert". Choose the “…“ option and set FLAC as the output format. Set other conversion options (output folder, file name pattern, etc.) here. My preference is to set the sub-folder name to “artist - album” and file name to “nn. title”.
7. Hit the “Convert” button to begin the batch conversion process. The first time you run conversion you will be prompted for the location of FLAC.exe. Most likely it’s in C:\Program Files\FLAC Frontend\tools.
8. Some DSF metadata will carry over to the DoP encoded FLAC file but cover art will need to be reattached. Cover art and metadata in the DoP FLAC file can be edited just like any other FLAC file. I add “(DSD DoP)” to the end each folder name and album title to differentiate it from the same album in other formats.
9. Before batch converting a bunch of files, convert a few test files, index them in LMS, and play them to make sure they decode as native DSD.
10. If the files don’t play back correctly, Check the following:
- Verify that all four parameters on the "File->Preferences ->Tools->SACD" Foobar screen are configured as documented above.
- Verify that the EDO app is installed and configured correctly on the SBT. Every time the SBT’s firmware is updated, EDO must be reinstalled and configured.
- Verify that the PCM stream from the playback software to the DAC is PCM bit-perfect.
That’s it. Once the files are converted by Foobar and indexed in LMS, you’re ready to enjoy your DSD music through the Squeezebox Touch.
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Russ,
this is a great primer! Thanks! If you don't mind may I use this (with full disclosure to you, the author) in my revised SACD Ripping Guide? I need to do major revisions (mostly to the after-ripping-now-what portions) and this would be a great addition. I will wait until it "fleshes out" with any opinions, changes, adjustments or feedback.
Ted
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Very cool!
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Thanks so much, I have a Teac on order for the secondary basement system and had some of the stuff but not in one place. I dragged out the Touch waiting for the DAC
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Go for it Ted.
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Any comment on what kind of sound improvement you get through the SBT doing this versus the non-DSD-converted files? And how the SBT playing DSD compares soundwise to Windows-based servers and such?
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Russtafarian,
Many thanks for posting this up. I've seen the idea of DoP via the Touch teased several times at the Squeezebox forum and have been waiting for someone to show us how to do it.
That being said, I'm having problems following your directions. :oops: I can't seem to get past the file conversion process and have no idea what I'm doing wrong.
Here's the "converter status report" telling me my conversion failed:
8 out of 8 tracks converted with major problems.
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\01 - Black Sabbath - War Pigs.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\War Pigs.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "War Pigs.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\02 - Black Sabbath - Paranoid.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\Paranoid.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "Paranoid.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\03 - Black Sabbath - Planet Caravan.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\Planet Caravan.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "Planet Caravan.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\04 - Black Sabbath - Iron Man.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\Iron Man.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "Iron Man.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\05 - Black Sabbath - Electric Funeral.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\Electric Funeral.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "Electric Funeral.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\06 - Black Sabbath - Hand Of Doom.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\Hand Of Doom.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "Hand Of Doom.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\07 - Black Sabbath - Rat Salad.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\Rat Salad.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "Rat Salad.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Source: "F:\My Music\...DSD\Black Sabbath\Black Sabbath - Paranoid\08 - Black Sabbath - Fairies Wear Boots.dsf"
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters) : "F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\Fairies Wear Boots.flac"
Additional information:
Encoder stream format: 176400Hz / 2ch / 24bps
Command line: "C:\Windows\system32\flac.exe" -s --ignore-chunk-sizes -5 - -o "Fairies Wear Boots.flac"
Working folder: F:\My Music\Black Sabbath\Paranoid (DSD)\
Conversion failed: The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters
Maybe you can see what I did wrong?
Thanks,
Brett
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I can't seem to get past the file conversion process and have no idea what I'm doing wrong.
O.K., I'm in trouble now because I'm no software troubleshooter guy. All I can say is that I've set up and successfully run the Foobar conversion process on two different computers.
I got the message you posted one time when a big conversion batch crashed because the drive ran out of space.
Here are screen shots from a Foobar setup that I know works:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85990)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85991)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85992)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85993)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=85994)
Russ
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Hmm...my setup looks like yours. :scratch:
One thing I did notice was this
7. Hit the “Convert” button to begin the batch conversion process. The first time you run conversion you will be prompted for the location of FLAC.exe. Most likely it’s in C:\Program Files\FLAC Frontend\tools.
never happened.
Maybe I have flac.exe setup incorrectly.
Thanks for you help. Hopefully, I'll figure this out.
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Let us know when you do, or when the next hiccup hits. This is valuable stuff.
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Any comment on what kind of sound improvement you get through the SBT doing this versus the non-DSD-converted files? And how the SBT playing DSD compares soundwise to Windows-based servers and such?
Last night I did some brief comparisons between DSD DoP via Squeezebox Touch and DSD DSF via Win7/Jriver. The SBT sounds really good, but Jriver sounds better. The difference is consistent across all resolutions and formats which leads me to the initial conclusion that Win7/Jriver is superior to LMS/SBT as a music streaming platform. I want to convert some of my best sounding and favorite DSF files to DoP and do the comparison again before I draw any firm conclusions.
Within the LMS/SBT/DAC2 setup, USB is more resolving and open sounding than SPDIF. I use a Wywires 2 meter USB cable and a 15 ft Markertek 75ohm pro video cable for SPDIF. My SBT uses the stock wallwart PS so that may have an impact on its performance.
Keep in mind this is based on my listening impressions on my system via my beat-up ears. Hopefully others can make similar comparisons and share their impressions. I can say that if the SBT was still available (no thanks to Logitech), it would still be the go-to solution for an economical hi-rez streaming system.
Russ
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Hopefully, I'll figure this out.
Maybe try a clean Foobar and FLAC install with just the foo_input_packeddsd.dll added? I'm reaching for answers here, but this worked on one of my PCs that didn't have any music server software on it.
Russ
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I believe I got the conversion to flac done, but I still don't know why I was having problems. My fix was to simply move to another computer. My suspicion about being unable to convert to flac on the 1st computer is that the problem had something to do with flac.exe and not foobar2000.
With that being said, I still cannot get DSD through my DAC. I believe the problem is with the DAC itself. If I understand correctly, the TEAC UD-501 only does DSD through the USB input and the TEAC's USB input will not work with EDO. So, there you have. I'm screwed. What I'm getting now utilizing the coax out on the Touch shows up on the DAC as 176.4 PCM
If anyone knows of a way to get the UD-501's USB input to play with EDO, I'd love to hear about it.
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That's a drag about the Teac's USB not working with EDO. Did you try turning off the upconverter in the DAC menu?
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I have been using this plugin to convert all my DSD files to play through a Squeezebox Touch to a dCS Debussy with great success.
What I do find is when converting DSF or DFF, the tags are sometimes not retained. The best way to do it is to convert from ISO image files directly, which usually retains all the tags and saves an extra step of editing the tags afterwards.
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Thanks Russtafarian!! WooHoo!!!
I have the bolder modified squeezebox touch and power supply along with the Meitner MA-1 DAC and thought I needed to get the c.a.p.s. / jriver to play all my dsd and dsf files. I'll convert some per your instructions (and keep the original format as well) to compare a few tracks and post comments.
I'll still probably want to get the c.a.p.s. down the road if it ends up sounding better than the LMS for DSD but this may get me playing some sooner than I thought.
Thanks again!!
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awesome news. I have been waiting for something like this. I wonder if something similar can be obtained for MAC. Its a shame the Duet is no longer made.
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I have been using this plugin to convert all my DSD files to play through a Squeezebox Touch to a dCS Debussy with great success.
Yes! Your posts on CA helped me figure this out. Thank you!
What I do find is when converting DSF or DFF, the tags are sometimes not retained. The best way to do it is to convert from ISO image files directly, which usually retains all the tags and saves an extra step of editing the tags afterwards.
I haven't tried converting from ISO files since I have all my DSD files extracted to DSF and retagged by Jriver. All the DSF metadata carried over to the DoP FLAC container except cover art. I personally found the embedded metadata in SACD ISO files to be so inconsistently formatted and categorized that it drove me batty. It was a relief to get the DSF files properly tagged so they would index properly for playback software.
Russ
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I have the bolder modified squeezebox touch and power supply along with the Meitner MA-1 DAC and thought I needed to get the c.a.p.s. / jriver to play all my dsd and dsf files. I'll convert some per your instructions (and keep the original format as well) to compare a few tracks and post comments.
Funny, I JUST listed my Bolder Touch and Deluxe PSU today... If I didn't commit to a 16bit DAC I would probably pull it from the market to experiment with DSD.
I bet those modifications close the gap and equal/surpass Russ' Windows 7 computer!
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Russtafarian, thanks so much for posting this primer. I had no idea the SBT could play DSD files through a DoP compliant DAC until I read a post by John Swenson on the Slim Devices Forum, and Google took me to your post. If and when I get the appropriate DAC, I'll be sure to try your method. Great work on your part!
Guido F.
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I believe I got the conversion to flac done, but I still don't know why I was having problems. My fix was to simply move to another computer. My suspicion about being unable to convert to flac on the 1st computer is that the problem had something to do with flac.exe and not foobar2000.
With that being said, I still cannot get DSD through my DAC. I believe the problem is with the DAC itself. If I understand correctly, the TEAC UD-501 only does DSD through the USB input and the TEAC's USB input will not work with EDO. So, there you have. I'm screwed. What I'm getting now utilizing the coax out on the Touch shows up on the DAC as 176.4 PCM
If anyone knows of a way to get the UD-501's USB input to play with EDO, I'd love to hear about it.
It appears that I have been able to move the ball down the field somewhat. I can now make a USB connection between the EDO'd Touch and the TEAC. This was accomplished by simply placing a 2.0 USB hub between the two devices.
Unfortunately (strangely?), the TEAC reads the DoP file as PCM 176.4. I don't even see how this is possible. Maybe you guys have some ideas?
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Unfortunately (strangely?), the TEAC reads the DoP file as PCM 176.4. I don't even see how this is possible. Maybe you guys have some ideas?
The DoP file is formatted as 176.4 PCM so that makes sense. The 176.4 PCM DoP file is a taxi cab for the DSD file. Once the cab arrives, the DoP function in the DAC is supposed to pay the fare, open the door, and invite Mr. DSD to step outside and shake his groove thang.
Just curious, does your Teac currently play DSD from a Mac or PC?
Russ
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The DoP file is formatted as 176.4 PCM so that makes sense. The 176.4 PCM DoP file is a taxi cab for the DSD file. Once the cab arrives, the DoP function in the DAC is supposed to pay the fare, open the door, and invite Mr. DSD to step outside and shake his groove thang.
Just curious, does your Teac currently play DSD from a Mac or PC?
Russ
Maybe I'm not understanding, but it's not a 176.4 PCM file. It's a DSD file wrapped in a flac container...right? So, why would the TEAC see it as PCM when there is not actually a PCM file there? That's what I'm finding strange.
Yes, I can play DSD files from my computer to the TEAC. The TEAC even recognizes DSD as such.
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Maybe I'm not understanding, but it's not a 176.4 PCM file. It's a DSD file wrapped in a flac container...right?
Yes, and that FLAC container is formatted as 176.4 PCM. A non-DoP DAC would lock onto the file as PCM, try to play it and fail. A DoP DSD DAC will lock onto the file as PCM, recognize the DoP flag, strip off the DoP wrapper and play it as DSD.
The Teac does play DSD for you so that's not the issue. The Teac receives the DoP file but doesn't know to decode it as DSD. Something is getting missed in the handshake between the file and the DAC. I'm stumped too.
Russ
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Russ,
this is a great primer! Thanks! If you don't mind may I use this (with full disclosure to you, the author) in my revised SACD Ripping Guide? I need to do major revisions (mostly to the after-ripping-now-what portions) and this would be a great addition. I will wait until it "fleshes out" with any opinions, changes, adjustments or feedback.
Ted
Ted,
Is the Meitner ma-1 a " A DoP DSD DAC will lock onto the file as PCM, recognize the DoP flag, strip off the DoP wrapper and play it as DSD" like Russ mentions? Does your MA-1 strip off the DoP wrapper and play as a DSD file? Do you get two blue input LED's on your MA-1 which confirms it's in DSD mode? I'm having trouble with this procedure using my MA-1.
Thanks,
Greg
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The Meitner is only a DoP DAC in that it has no native ASIO driver for DSD; the ASIO driver on the website is really only DSD for Kernel Steaming or WASAPI.. However, I have plenty of normal DoP sources (Jplay, Jriver via CAPS, etc...and yes they light up both lights :) ) and no Squeezebox Touch with EDO mod, so I am not the person to test this bundling with FLAC. But yes, the Meitner (and 90% of other DACs) will work with DoP just fine. If anyone is concerned, check our DSD DAC table on the DSD database google page.
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What will help here is to test all these DoP DACs to determine which ones will work with this process and document any DAC parameters that need to be set.
I propose that everyone with a DoP DSD DAC send it to me for an extended audition so I can figure this out.
I'm doing this for the audio community. Because I care.
Russ
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That is soo thoughtful Russ. I will send you all 6 of my DSD DACS I have inhouse. NOT!!! :D
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Thanks for the response. I'll keep working on it.
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Thanks for the response. I'll keep working on it.
Have you tried your pc and USB (with Jriver, for example) just to get DoP working?
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Have you tried your pc and USB (with Jriver, for example) just to get DoP working?
Thanks Ted! I have not tried this yet and will give it a try.
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Jesus R mentioned a really important point over on CA for making sure DoP files play correctly. PCM streaming must be bit perfect. So whether the files are being played back from a PC via USB or a EDO SBT, software volume control must be at 100% or turned off and there should be no other DSP processing between the player and the DAC.
I earlier reported I couldn't get the DoP files to play with Jriver USB to the DAC. Once I reset Jriver for bit perfect PCM streaming, the DoP files play fine. I'll update the guide to clarify this.
Russ
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So JRIver bitstreaming must be set to "off"?
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So JRIver bitstreaming must be set to "off"?
DoP bitstreaming in Jriver can be left on. Jriver ignores this function when streaming PCM files, and the DoP FLAC files are PCM files for streaming purposes. The DoP bitstreaming function only kicks in when Jriver encounters a native DSD file.
All other Jriver DSP functions should be turned off. You can tell when Jriver is streaming bit-perfect PCM because the "EQ" button turns blue (next to the "repeat" and "shuffle" buttons near the search box).
You can set up an auto-switch playback zone configured exclusively for DoP files if your normal PCM playback does use the Jriver DSP functions.
Russ
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Right, I thought maybe something needed to be done with bitstreaming when you said "Once I reset Jriver for bit perfect PCM streaming, the DoP files play fine. " Thanks.
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Hello everyone. Russtafarian, thank you very much for opening this thread. As Guidof I have read about this exciting topic on the Slimdevices Forum and found your thread via Google. I have ordered a Matrix X-Sabre today as a DAC for my SBT (with EDO app). According to the DSD Database even its digital inputs accept DoP. USB connection should work, thanks to XMOS chip.
Can`t wait to get the DAC! If this should work, I can stop dreaming of the LUMIN! :)
Regards
Mario
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Got a Benchmark DAC2 D yesterday. I'm delighted with the sound quality but I seem to have a most annoying problem. When connected via USB from a Logitech Squeezebox with EDO (Enhanced Digital Output), switching from a 16/44 to a 24/96 track or vice versa, makes the new track play horribly distorted. Sometimes re-engaging USB 2.0 from the remote cures the problem. Most of the time it does not.
SPDIF via Toslink, on the other hand, works fine. Haven't tried coax yet.
On another forum, it was suggested that a powered USB may be helpful. (I will try it next).
Has anyone had this problem with SBT and Benchmark DAC2? Any advice on how to solve it?
Regards,
Guido F.
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Guido, I found this in the EDO compatibility list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0 for your DAC:
"SPDIF and Optical - everything works. For USB, user must set EDO Buffer size to any setting except "Default" or "Very Large + Randomise CPU", then let the Touch reboot to reacquire handshake with the DAC or else sound will be distorted."
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Guido, I found this in the EDO compatibility list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0 for your DAC:
Great resource! Thank you. I've added this link to the document for future reference.
Russ
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Guido, I found this in the EDO compatibility list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0 for your DAC:
"SPDIF and Optical - everything works. For USB, user must set EDO Buffer size to any setting except "Default" or "Very Large + Randomise CPU", then let the Touch reboot to reacquire handshake with the DAC or else sound will be distorted."
Thanks very much for the tip. I'll try it over the weekend.
Guido F.
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Russ:
Did you have to set the EDO buffer size to any particular value with your Benchmark DAC2? I'll try it over the weekend, but I'm curious about your setup. Thanks.
Regards,
Guido.
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Did you have to set the EDO buffer size to any particular value with your Benchmark DAC2?
I don't remember doing that. I'll check and let you know.
Russ
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OK. I just posted the following on the SlimDevices Forum:
Following a failed attempt at using EDO+USB+Benchmark DAC2 D, I switched to SPDIF (coax). Everything worked fine up to 24/96. But playing a 24/192 track results in distorted sound and the LEDs on the Benchmark show 24/44.1. (All this because I wanted to eventually test the DSD over DoP capability of this DAC).
Did a factory reset, re-installed EDO, played with buffer size choices. Even tried a different SBT. Same unsatisfactory results.
I'm really baffled by this. The database indicates full compatibility of EDO and Benchmark DAC2, so I must conclude that I'm either doing something asinine or this particular DAC is defective. I lean toward the former ;-).
I really like the sound quality of this DAC, so I'd like to be able to make it work to its full (presumed) capability.
Any ideas?
Guido F.
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Russ, you can add the Matrix X-Sabre to the list. Playing DSD (DoP) works superb via USB. DSD LED is "on". A dream came true! I am just somewhere in the seventh audio heaven.
USB connection works "out of the box", after a reboot. The next hours I will be busy with converting all my DSD files into DoP. Thank God, it`s weekend. :)
@Guido, sorry to hear about that. I was not following the EDO thread since March anymore. Maybe a Benchmark DAC2 D owner has posted about the DAC there? After what I have read (and also confirmed by Arthur from the US office of Matrix Audio) it is a plus when the USB DAC is using the XMOS chip. The EDO app supports this. I already had good experience with the Oppo 105 as USB DAC for the SBT and now with the X-Sabre. Both of them are using the XMOS chip. Do you have a powered 2.0 USB hub to place between the DAC and SBT?
Best regards,
Mario
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Mario,
Thanks. Could you confirm if the Matrix X-SABRE also accepts the DoP files via SPDIF? I have used Arthur's nice inexpensive X-SPDIF converter to pass standard DoP (i.e not converted FLAC) via SPDIF to several of my DSD DACs (Mytek, Chord,etc) and therefore assume the X-SABRE DAC could do it too, but the folks over on Head-Fi are questioning that (in fact they questioned DoP via SPDIF generally, until I confirmed for them it is reality). We changed the DSD database (I had it as USB and digital inputs) to only show USB but my hunch remains. Thanks
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Ted,
the Matrix X-Sabre accepts DoP via USB only. Via SPDIF, the DAC`s LEDs indicate a 176,4kHz file but there is no sound. I was asking Arthur and also the Chinese main office about this. Their answer was: "... the digital inputs of X-SABRE can not handle DoP format, it can handle DoP format via USB only. "
Btw, thanks for the DSD Database. It was a big help for finding a suitable DAC.
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OK. I just posted the following on the SlimDevices Forum:
Following a failed attempt at using EDO+USB+Benchmark DAC2 D, I switched to SPDIF (coax). Everything worked fine up to 24/96. But playing a 24/192 track results in distorted sound and the LEDs on the Benchmark show 24/44.1. (All this because I wanted to eventually test the DSD over DoP capability of this DAC).
Did a factory reset, re-installed EDO, played with buffer size choices. Even tried a different SBT. Same unsatisfactory results.
I'm really baffled by this. The database indicates full compatibility of EDO and Benchmark DAC2, so I must conclude that I'm either doing something asinine or this particular DAC is defective. I lean toward the former ;-).
I really like the sound quality of this DAC, so I'd like to be able to make it work to its full (presumed) capability.
Any ideas?
Guido F.
Problem solved. It turns out that my file setting in LMS was wrong. Of course it was entirely my stupidity! Reset FLAC to 'native' and it all works beautifully.
Guido F.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=87003)
The oscilloscope of the SBT seems to be confused about the format a bit. 8)
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Just want to let you all know that I have finally been able to make this work on my TEAC UD-501. It is a bit quirky, though.
First, in order to even get a USB connection between the TEAC and SBT/EDO (the TEAC only does DSD via USB), I placed a 2.0 USB hub between the two. I have no idea why this would be necessary. I just did it on a lark and it worked.
At this point, I was able to play all PCM (44.1-192) thru the USB connection, but not the flac-converted DSD files. When I attempted to play the converted DSD files, the TEAC would alternate back and forth between PCM and DSD mode producing stuttering noise.
Through sheer trial and error I realized that I could get the TEAC to play the converted DSD files through the SBT/EDO if I first played a PCM file that was 24/192 (176.4 might work too, but I haven't tried it).
So, that's it. A little quirky, but it works. When I go to listen to my converted DSF files, the only thing I need to do is listen to a little of the Doobie Brothers' Captain and Me at 24/192 and I'm good to go. Weird, huh?
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Not so weird. Many of us first need a "little of the doobie" to listen to music correctly, too. :)
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Ha...double entendre.
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bprice, did you read about the TEAC A-H01 and UD-H01 in the EDO compatibility list? No USB hub needed when...
Tested and working with EDO Kernel #12, plays 24-bit 192Khz correctly, sounds good too
Should TEAC have changed the USB part with the UD-501?
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bprice, did you read about the TEAC A-H01 and UD-H01 in the EDO compatibility list? No USB hub needed when...
Should TEAC have changed the USB part with the UD-501?
Yes sir, I did...then I forgot about it. What is this kernel #12 and where would I find one?
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Hmmm... to be honest, I just had to look for this the very first time. I am kind of spoiled by the working default settings. At first with the Oppo 105 and now with the X-Sabre.
Ok, you find that in the menu of the SBT, via settings* --> extended --> Kernel Updater. There you find several USB Test Kernels. Good luck!
* my menu language is German. not sure if "settings" is the correct name in the English menu.
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Hmmm... to be honest, I just had to look for this the very first time. I am kind of spoiled by the working default settings. At first with the Oppo 105 and now with the X-Sabre.
Ok, you find that in the menu of the SBT, via settings* --> extended --> Kernel Updater. There you find several USB Test Kernels. Good luck!
* my menu language is German. not sure if "settings" is the correct name in the English menu.
I think I know what you're talking about. I'll give it a try. Thank you.
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Just want to let you all know that I have finally been able to make this work on my TEAC UD-501.
That's a relief. I'd like to know what's causing that quirkiness.
Russ
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Hi, I followed the great instructions in this thread to convert a few of my DSD DFF files to DoP using foobar. I have a SBT with EDO feeding a Benchmark DAC2 via COAX. The files play fine 75% of the time and sounds great, but every now and then, the current song will stop playing and a few seconds later, the next track will play. The error I see on the SBT is "Connection reset by Server."
It's interesting that the same song might skip some of the time, but not all (eg., it will play fine in its entirety). This leads me to believe that the song file is okay, but something else is making it skip. I am using the LMS version 7.7. At first, I thought it might be a bandwidth issue, but I also have some 24/192 files and those all play fine and never skip. So, it seems like it's a DoP issue. From the prior posts, it sounds like 24/192 files require more throughput and when I compare a 24/192 file and DoP file of the same song, I do see that the 24/192 version is larger. So, it doesn't appear to be a throughput issue via the COAX.
I've not tried a USB connection since I noticed this problem, but when I first got the DAC2, I first tried to connect the SBT to it via USB, but wasn't able to get it to work, so I just used the COAX which works fine up to 24/192.
Any thoughts?
Thanks, Hammer.
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Hello Hammer,
I also use a SBT, connected to a Matrix X-Sabre via USB. My DoP files play fine, as long the LMS is not busy with scanning new added music files/folders. DoP playback is not possible then. The DAC is switching between DSD and "176,4kHz". That`s the only issue I have but not really a problem.
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Thanks. Good to know that it works and most likely an issue with my setup. On that note, would you mind sharing if you use the USB 2.0 port on the DAC2? Is the SBT a USB 2.0 device? Do you need to use a USB hub like I have read elsewhere? Lastly, can you tell me the order in which you connect the devices? I have tried using USB with the DAC2 and EDO, but that always resulted in the SBT hanging. Thanks very much. Hammer.
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Sorry, I don`t have the DAC2. My DoP DAC is the Matrix X-Sabre. No USB hub needed between the SBT and the DAC.
According to the EDO compatibility list the Benchmark DAC2 doesn`t need a USB hub either https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0)
But this point seems to be important: For USB, user must set EDO Buffer size to any setting except "Default" or "Very Large + Randomise CPU", then let the Touch reboot to reacquire handshake with the DAC or else sound will be distorted.
Do you pack your DSD files into a 192kHz FLAC container or 176,4kHz?
Because of missing USB hot-plugging the DAC must be switched on before the SBT, in the daily use. Make sure that you have an USB 2.0 cable between the SBT and your DAC.
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I've successfully used both USB and coax between the SBT/EDO and Benchmark DAC2 to play DoP files. Coax is preferred because I connect a PC to the DAC2's USB input.
On that note, would you mind sharing if you use the USB 2.0 port on the DAC2?
Yes. USB 1.1, the DAC2's default mode, is limited to 24/96. When using the DAC2's USB input for SBT/EDO, or any file playback beyond 24/96, the DAC2 must be switched to USB 2.0 mode. Windows PCs require a Benchmark USB 2.0 driver.
Is the SBT a USB 2.0 device?
I don't know for certain but I would guess that it is since it is capable of sending up to 24/192 to a USB DAC.
Do you need to use a USB hub like I have read elsewhere?
I don't need a USB hub for my SBT/EDO to DAC2 setup.
Lastly, can you tell me the order in which you connect the devices? I have tried using USB with the DAC2 and EDO, but that always resulted in the SBT hanging.
I didn't pay much attention to this since the connection worked the first time I tried it.
Russ
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Hi, I followed the great instructions in this thread to convert a few of my DSD DFF files to DoP using foobar. I have a SBT with EDO feeding a Benchmark DAC2 via COAX. The files play fine 75% of the time and sounds great, but every now and then, the current song will stop playing and a few seconds later, the next track will play. The error I see on the SBT is "Connection reset by Server."
It's interesting that the same song might skip some of the time, but not all (eg., it will play fine in its entirety). This leads me to believe that the song file is okay, but something else is making it skip. I am using the LMS version 7.7. At first, I thought it might be a bandwidth issue, but I also have some 24/192 files and those all play fine and never skip. So, it seems like it's a DoP issue. From the prior posts, it sounds like 24/192 files require more throughput and when I compare a 24/192 file and DoP file of the same song, I do see that the 24/192 version is larger. So, it doesn't appear to be a throughput issue via the COAX.
I've not tried a USB connection since I noticed this problem, but when I first got the DAC2, I first tried to connect the SBT to it via USB, but wasn't able to get it to work, so I just used the COAX which works fine up to 24/192.
Any thoughts?
Thanks, Hammer.
I don't have this problem playing DoP encoded tracks on my benchmark DAC2 via coaxial. Perhaps this suggests a network issue is involved. Is your SBT hardwired or wireless? What version of LMS are you running?
I tried USB earlier on and found that occasionally the Benchmark refused to lock on to DSD, but that was a different problem from the one you are having.
Best regards,
Guido F.
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Hi, I was finally able to get USB to work with my Benchmark DAC2. It doesn't sound like others had this issue, but I had to switch the DAC2 to USB 2.0 and change the buffer to Very Large under EDO. Otherwise, whenever I change the output of the SBT to USB, it would just keep rebooting. In addition, I do not need to use a USB hub to get this to work. Hopefully, I was the only one who had issues, but if others did as well, maybe this will be helpful.
Enjoy!
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Upon further testing with the USB connection, I find that if I switch between playing files of different resolutions, the music eventually gets garbled. This does not happen when I use the coax connection. Anyone else experience this?
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I had to switch the DAC2 to USB 2.0
This is an important point, especially for Benchmark DAC2 users. For the DoP process to work, the DAC (any DAC) must be operating in USB 2.0 mode.
For Benchmark DAC2 users, the default setting out of the box is USB 1.1. The DAC2 must be manually switched to USB 2.0 mode to receive 24/176, 24/192 or DSD files. For Windows users, the Benchmark USB 2.0 driver must be installed and selected in the software program. The driver will only install properly if the DAC2 is in USB2.0 mode.
Once it's set, it works fine. But more than one DAC2 user (including this one) has been tripped up by the USB 1.1 vs. 2.0 switch during setup.
Russ
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Upon further testing with the USB connection, I find that if I switch between playing files of different resolutions, the music eventually gets garbled. This does not happen when I use the coax connection. Anyone else experience this?
Yes, I had the same problem. To avoid the hassle, I switched to coax which works flawlessly and sounds great.
Regards,
Guido F.
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This is an important point, especially for Benchmark DAC2 users. For the DoP process to work, the DAC (any DAC) must be operating in USB 2.0 mode.
For Benchmark DAC2 users, the default setting out of the box is USB 1.1. The DAC2 must be manually switched to USB 2.0 mode to receive 24/176, 24/192 or DSD files. For Windows users, the Benchmark USB 2.0 driver must be installed and selected in the software program. The driver will only install properly if the DAC2 is in USB2.0 mode.
Once it's set, it works fine. But more than one DAC2 user (including this one) has been tripped up by the USB 1.1 vs. 2.0 switch during setup.
Russ
Russ, yes, I have my DAC2 set to USB 2.0. And actually when I didn't I couldn't even get the SBT to boot properly with USB out enabled in EDO.
And so with the DAC2 set to USB 2.0, I'm having the issue I described where if I switch tracks of different resolutions, the music gets garbled as if the USB connection gets out of sync or something...I also tried with and without a USB hub between the SBT and the DAC2 and same problem.
Any ideas? I guess using COAX is not the end of the world...
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Coax works very well, and in my system it sounds indistinguishable from USB.
Regards,
Guido F.
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And so with the DAC2 set to USB 2.0, I'm having the issue I described where if I switch tracks of different resolutions, the music gets garbled as if the USB connection gets out of sync or something...I also tried with and without a USB hub between the SBT and the DAC2 and same problem.
I've tried to replicate your issue in my setup, SBT>USB>DAC2, playing and switching between DoP-DSD and PCM tracks at various sampling rates. I haven't hear it either before or after the latest LMS/SBT update and EDO reinstall. I wish I had a better answer for you.
Russ
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Russ, thank you for following up. I wonder why...maybe you have a later revision of the DAC2? Can you tell me the manufacture date? Thanks, Henry
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Hello again,
I found this thread on the slimdevices forum http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?99132-Call-for-testers!-Daphile (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?99132-Call-for-testers!-Daphile)
I must say: Wow! Now I am not afraid anymore that day when my SBT will be broken.
As far as I have understood, Daphile works like a kind of "embedded system". It's based on Gentoo Linux. The installation itself is very easy. No need to have skills in Linux. At first I have installed it on an old Asus Eee PC 1101HA but that' s too weak or whatever for streaming DSD and PCM Hi-Res. There were even hiccups with 44,1kHz sometimes. I remembered when I was using this Asus netbook for streaming music to my former Asus Xonar Essence One DAC two years ago, already there were hiccups. And me was blaming the Xonar, its driver! Forgive me :oops:
Well, yesterday I tried it with a Lenovo ThinkPad Edge E325. With Daphile running "live" from the USB stick. It rocked! No hiccups anymore! And today, it is already running for 6-7 hours. Very stable so far.
You can control Daphile via the web interface and using the well known Android & iOS apps for the Squeezeserver.
web interface snapshots
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89145) (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89146)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89147) (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89148)
I think I will give it a try for serious use when I find a nice looking mini-pc/nettop.
This Daphile is (imho) an alternative for people who don`t own a SBT (anymore) or want to play DSD64 & DSD128 files (even native without the DoP converting before) or want to enjoy the hotplug between USB DAC and the Daphile system or in general for everyone who has problems to connect the SBT with its USB DAC.
Regards,
Mario
http://www.daphile.com/#overview (http://www.daphile.com/#overview)
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hi This is my first post - just joined because there are so many smart members here....
Thanks for introducing me to the next level of $$$$$.... I didn't know there was a next level until I read all this stuff about DSD
I downloaded a DSDiff file from Blue Coast Records to test, and converted to a FLAC format via Foobar and also JRiver as per your very helpful instructions..
Both formats play fine on my PC
However I cannot get my Squeezebox Touch to play this, despite installing the "Enhanced Digital Output" (EDO) app which allows 24/192 streaming.
I have an early model Cambridge Audio Dacmagic (24/96) - will this work?
Question - if the SBT has it's own onboard DAC now enhanced to 24/192 via the EDO, why do I need to use an external DAC?
If I do, then I will purchase one, although not right away.
Many thanks
Jon
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Hello Jon,
the EDO app lets the SBT pass on 176.4 and 192kHz PCM to an extern DAC via coax or USB. It doesn't enhance the internal DAC of the Touch. I guess you have converted the DSD files to 24bit/176.4kHz FLAC. You need to convert it to 88.2kHz for the Touch DAC. The DAC Magic won`t help you here. I had that DAC, too. It doesn`t make sense as a DAC for the Touch.
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Total newbie in this area. Can you rip the audio tracks from Blu-ray concert videos? I have a number that I'd like to rip.
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Can you rip the audio tracks from Blu-ray concert videos?
Yes! 8)
Not sure if it already was described somewhere in this HiRez Circle. For ripping I start the "fox" and extract the audio track with tsMuxeR (or MeGUI). To split into single tracks I use the CD Wave Editor.
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Many thanks Hozohr: Yes, I converted them via foobar to an embedded flac file as detailed earlier in this post (whatever resolution that ends up as). So if I replace the DacMagic with a AudioEngine D1 which is rated at up to 24/192 then will that work?
http://www.audiostream.com/content/audioengine-d1-24-bit-dac
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Ah ok, you have created DoP files! You still need a DoP ready DAC. Please check Ted's DSD Database https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0) for a suitable DAC (some of these DACs even accept DoP via the digital input) and also here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0) if the DAC is compatible to the SBT (via USB).
With the Audioengine D1 you can not play these DoP files. I am not sure now if the SBT (with the EDO app) can give out 24/192kHz via the optical output or if that's possible via coax (and USB) only.
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JonD,
For $150 plus shipping you can purchase a Schiit Loki (http://schiit.com/products/loki) that you can use to convert DSD files. It has a pass-thru that will allow you to hook it up to your current PCM DAC and at the push of button you can listen to either PCM or DSD files. This is probably the most inexpensive way to convert those DoP files.
I have one on order for a desktop system. When I get it next week or so, I'll let you know how it works with the Touch.
Brett
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JonD,
For $150 plus shipping you can purchase a Schiit Loki (http://schiit.com/products/loki) that you can use to convert DSD files. It has a pass-thru that will allow you to hook it up to your current PCM DAC and at the push of button you can listen to either PCM or DSD files. This is probably the most inexpensive way to convert those DoP files.
I have one on order for a desktop system. When I get it next week or so, I'll let you know how it works with the Touch.
Brett
Brett,
Please explain the "push of a button" to play either DSD or PCM. You have two servers? Otherwise you need to change device/DAC drivers in your player (Jriver, etc) since your PCM DAC and your Loki cannot share drivers. I brought these logistics up on the DSD DAC thread but no one seemed to care. Schiit is very vague about the passthrough. It's just an analog in, period. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Brett,
Please explain the "push of a button" to play either DSD or PCM. You have two servers? Otherwise you need to change device/DAC drivers in your player (Jriver, etc) since your PCM DAC and your Loki cannot share drivers. I brought these logistics up on the DSD DAC thread but no one seemed to care. Schiit is very vague about the passthrough. It's just an analog in, period. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ted,
I honestly do not know. I'm just going by what's been advertised.
I think the following is a response from the thread you mentioned.
Hey all,
A couple of things. First, the above: sorry, edited this on the site to be more accurate. It now reads:
To be totally clear, Loki does absolutely nothing to the output of your current DAC--it is simply a passive switcher. RCA inputs, PCB traces, and a switch are all that's in the signal path if you're using the passthrough.
And yep, there are definitely active filters on there--it's just the opamps are really, really tiny, since they are MSOP packages. If you're looking only at the front of the board, you won't see 90% of what's going on--take a look at the back of the board at schiit.com/products/loki
As far as managing two USB connections, Loki has a different USB device ID and reports as a different device than even the standard Schiit USB interface, so it's usually easy to switch between them using your playback software.
Let us know if you have more questions, and I'll see if I can clear them up.
All the best,
Jason Stoddard
Co-Founder
Schiit Audio
It would seem that the bold and underlined is an admission by Schiit of your concern.
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Yeah, so if using a preamp then no way would I go through an extra analog step, just send both DACs to two separate inputs. But having two USB connections is a PITA, so good luck.
Sorry for the hijack, but wanted to straighten out a misconception, brought on by mfger's marketing.
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Thanks Brett & Holzohr: The Schiit Loki seems it will do the trick. And also from the DSD database, the iFi iDSD portable DAC (http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iDAC.html) looks even better, handling native DSD input, as well as DSD128, although here in NZ the price has morphed from the $169 (couldn’t see where you can buy it for at that price.??) to $450. And if the SBT still won’t handle the converted DSD files, I can also run them directly from a PC. I’ll wait to hear how you get on Brett.
Jon
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Thanks Brett & Holzohr: The Schiit Loki seems it will do the trick. And also from the DSD database, the iFi iDSD portable DAC (http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iDAC.html) looks even better, handling native DSD input, as well as DSD128, although here in NZ the price has morphed from the $169 (couldn’t see where you can buy it for at that price.??) to $450. And if the SBT still won’t handle the converted DSD files, I can also run them directly from a PC. I’ll wait to hear how you get on Brett.
Jon
The Loki works just fine with the EDOed Touch. :thumb:
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The Loki works just fine with the EDOed Touch. :thumb:
That's good to know. What does Loki do when sent a PCM file?
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That's good to know. What does Loki do when sent a PCM file?
It very elegantly does nothing.
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bprice... How does the Loki handle DSD, soundwise? "Better" than the TEAC?
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bprice... How does the Loki handle DSD, soundwise? "Better" than the TEAC?
My initial impression is the Loki does not sound better than the TEAC. However, I have not listened critically to the two of them side- by-side. Give me a little time and I'll get a better handle on the Loki. I'll probably give it a little write-up in a different thread.
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Oki, thank you. I am almost glad that it doesn't sound better (for now) :) But maybe the Loki needs its burn-in time :D
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yes, please add your listening comments of the Loki after you have spent some time with it. look forward to your impressions
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Also, is it necessary to have the SBT at 100% volume to play DSD files? 100% volume might be a bit too loud with my 1000w RMS per channel amp. In which case I'd need a DAC with a volume control as I don't use a pre-amp.
Jon
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Yes, having the SBT at 100% volume is necessary to play DSD files (DoP) and (I think) also to play Hi-Res PCM files. It is a "bit perfect" thing. The DAC can not lock if the stream is not bit perfect.
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I'm a long-time SBT user and have used the EDO capability with the USB DAC built into Peachtree Grand Integrated. Unfortunately, the GI is not dsd-compatible and went back to the company (for other reasons). I'm currently awaiting the arrival of Benchmark DAC2L and reading this thread in preparation. Two questions come to mind:
1. Can benchmark DAC2 only accept DSD as DoP files, or can I also send, for instance, .DSF files?
2. Is Foobar the only way to convert .dsf files to DoP-compatible FLAC files? I'm asking because as a Mac user, Foobar is kind of uncharted territory.
Thanks for generating this most informative thread
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Hello Deribas,
if creating DoP files should be a problem (I am not a MAC user), have a look at www.daphile.com It is a small slim "OS" based on Gentoo and LMS 7.8.0. It offers converting DSD -> DoP on-the-fly. I use it on a small fanless Shuffle barebone (with a SSD) for a week. All I can say is: :thumb:
Advantage compared to the SBT is also USB-hotplugging and DSD128 playback. The "poor" SBT is used as display for the USB DAC at the moment. Surprisingly (to me) I could chose the USB DAC as extern player in the SBT menu.
Regards
Mario
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Thanks for all the great info in this thread. I also have used EDO with my SBT for quite a while and just recently purchased a Schiit Loki for my DSD files. I was disappointed that I would have to use a Mac music player to stream my DSD files to the Loki, but now I will fire up Windows 7 in a VM on the Mac and give the Foobar conversion process a try.
I still haven't found a replacement for the Touch that can do everything I want. I almost purchased the new Sony HAP-S1 but at $1000 it was a bit steep, so I went with the Loki add-on instead for $150. If I can get the Loki to play nice with the Touch I'll be extremely happy. Thanks!
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Just an update...got Foobar setup in my Win7 install and ran a test conversion on my Jerry Goldsmith SACD. Loaded the FLACs into LMS on my Mac mini, selected the USB output on my Touch (which recognized the Loki with no issue) and it started playing with no problems. I didn't have a chance to do any critical comparisons yet (I have the same SACD down res'd to 16/44.1), but that is next on the list to do. I also want to try to edit my metadata with XLD to see if that alters the converted FLACs at all. So far I am extremely pleased.
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Hello Deribas,
if creating DoP files should be a problem (I am not a MAC user), have a look at www.daphile.com It is a small slim "OS" based on Gentoo and LMS 7.8.0. It offers converting DSD -> DoP on-the-fly. I use it on a small fanless Shuffle barebone (with a SSD) for a week. All I can say is: :thumb:
Advantage compared to the SBT is also USB-hotplugging and DSD128 playback. The "poor" SBT is used as display for the USB DAC at the moment. Surprisingly (to me) I could chose the USB DAC as extern player in the SBT menu.
Regards
Mario
Hi Mario -
Based on your recommendation, I have gotten Daphile up and running on a $125 Core2Duo refurb computer from Newegg, and I use the Touch as my controller.
My DSD dac is out of the system right now (attempting to do some Acko/synch magic to it) but I'm hoping when it's finished for an overall solution to my music library system that will let me use the Touch for all types of files. This post of yours is the only mention I've seen of DSD to DoP on the fly capabilities of Daphile in any of the threads mentioning Daphile. Can you tell me how I can access this capability? Has Kipeta put any type of notification or tutorial up on his site? If so, I haven't yet found it.
Thanks in advance for any help - Pat
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Hi Pat,
you can activate "DSD over PCM" in the Audio Device Settings
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91254)
Most of my DSD files are in the DoP format for streaming via the SBT before but some albums are in native .dsf as the Opus 3 DSD Showcases (even DSD128), Daphile converts these files on-the-fly. My DAC only accepts the DoP format, not the native .dff or .dsf files.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91262)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91264)
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Hey, Mario, thanks for the quick reply and the help. The last thing I had seen was from back in August with Kipeta saying he didn't have a DSD dac and thus hadn't explored DoP. With this capability, he's really got a winner in Daphile, at least for those who like the Touch interface. Thanks again - Pat
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The Loki plays DSD from the SBT? That's cool! So to play FLAC through the Loki via the SBT, all we have to to do is convert FLAC to DSD, then convert DSD to DoP FLAC. No problem! :?
I've been keeping an eye on this thread since I started it a while back. Good to see you guys taking it further than I ever could.
Russ
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Pat, you're welcome. Kipeta is posting about Daphile in several forums. I found his thread in the slimdevices forum in the beginning of October. Reading about the DSD playback... I simply had to try out that. And yes.. Daphile seems to be the ideal system for people with a Squeezebox "background".
Btw... after what I have heard and read, the Mytek 192 seems to be problematic with Linux and also with Daphile. Other DACs with common USB chips should work with Daphile.
Russ,
then convert DSD to DoP FLAC
at least this you don't need to do with Daphile :)
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Hi everyone and Happy New Year!
Does anyone know if it is possible to have more than just the USB output active at the same time when using EDO on a SBT? I would like to connect two DACs to my SBT so I can compare them, but it seems when I enable USB output, the other outputs (optical and COAX) stops working.
Thanks in advance!
Hammer
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Inspired by seeing the various (and mostly overpriced) Linux-based server/streamer boxes at CES, I decided to give Daphile a spin this weekend. I re-purposed a 4 year old and otherwise useless netbook (1.6ghz Atom, 1g RAM) to boot and run Daphile from a USB stick. After some trial and error in setup, I think I have it running fairly stable. It is seamlessly playing all my stereo files, including 24/192 PCM and single DSD, through my Benchmark DAC2 HGC. As stated below, Daphile does DoP on the fly so there's no need to convert DSF files to DoP FLAC files. I'm controlling it with Ipeng on my Ipod Touch.
It does sound different, and possibly better than my typical Win7/Jriver/Benchmark setup, which surprised me. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions until I live with it for a while and do some comparison listening. But this inexpensive setup shows serious potential and is a viable solution for those looking for a simple hi-rez PCM/DSD file playback system.
Russ
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Appreciate the Daphile insights. I have a NetBook running Win 7 and LMS at the moment. Happy with red book, but cannot play some of my high Rez tunes, so considering a DAC and some work to play with it.
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I was wondering if anyone had successfully made a DoP FLAC direct from a DST file? (A DST file is just lossless-compressed DSD.)
I managed to do this in Foobar, and the resultant DoP FLAC plays back fine in Foobar. However, I don't yet have a DSD DAC (I have a Geek Pulse on order) so am not able to properly test it yet. Is there anyone out there who could test this for me?
Much appreciated in advance!
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Hi Dave,
DoP FLACs made from DST files play fine with my DSD DAC. The only thing is foobar needs more time to create them compared to uncompressed DSD-files.
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@ holzohr: Many thanks. Actually, I realised after posting my comment that my original attempt at making a DoP was just an ordinary PCM FLAC! I think the reason was I had the output bit-depth set to "24-bit" instead of "automatic." After realising this, it now appears to be working as I just get white noise (as should be expected) when playing the DoP back in Foobar through a PCM soundcard.
I will be getting a DoP compatible DAC in a few months so will then be able to stream my DoPs via my Touch. Whoo-hoo!
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Great thread!
Going to try tonight with SBT and iDSD nano dad..
PS 1) Does this work with DSD 128 ?
2) why should the converted DoP file be xx/176,4 and not xx/192?
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Great thread!
Going to try tonight with SBT and iDSD nano dad..
PS 1) Does this work with DSD 128 ?
2) why should the converted DoP file be xx/176,4 and not xx/192?
My understanding of the DoP protocol is that 176.4 khz is the standardized "package" for single DSD. Using 192 would provide a sightly larger "package" to carry single DSD, but would not make any sonic difference. What gets decoded by the DoP DAC is the single DSD bitstream, not a PCM resampling of the DSD. Double DSD via DoP would use 352.8 khz (pretty sure about this but not certain).
Since the SBT is limited to no more than 192khz sampling rate (with the EDO plug-in), Double DSD is not supported.
Russ
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Thanks!
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Double DSD via DoP would use 352.8 khz (pretty sure about this but not certain).
I can confirm about that. Was trying this with the Opus3 DSD128 albums and Daphile. It means it needs an USB connection computer -> DSD DAC
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Since I started this thread, I'll give an update on where I'm at with it. Although I've figured out how to do the DSF to DoP FLAC conversion, for me the process of converting and organizing over 10,000 DSD files to DoP FLAC is just too overwhelming to undertake.
Daphile was mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm trying it now and so far I like it. For me, running Daphile on an old laptop is a better squeezebox/LMS solution for playing DSF files than batch converting DSF to DoP FLAC and using a EDO/SBT setup. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/call-testers-daphile-16767/index5.html#post291939 (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/call-testers-daphile-16767/index5.html#post291939)
For those who are established SBT users with a smaller library of DSD titles, the conversion process may still be the way to go. It looks like Jesus at Sonore is working on a conversion tool that will be even easier to use than what we have here. http://www.sonore.us/apps.html (http://www.sonore.us/apps.html)
Russ
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It looks like Jesus at Sonore is working on a conversion tool that will be even easier to use than what we have here. http://www.sonore.us/apps.html (http://www.sonore.us/apps.html)
Russ
Thanks for the link, Russ. What would also be nice would be a tool that can re-convert DoP back to dff. As I understand it, currently there is no way to do this, hence everything needs to be double-backed-up (keeping the original dff or ISOs).
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Russ.. something that's maybe interesting to you. I updated Daphile today and now you can choose the player: SqueezePlay or the new alternative Squeezelite. I asked Kipeta/Kimmo what player I should choose. He answered that "Squeezelite has slightly better support for DSD because it fills up the pause gaps with "DSD silence" while SqueezePlay switches to PCM silence (relay clicks)."
And indeed when I skip the DSD tracks there are no more any relay clicks to hear as with the SqueezePlay before (playing a DSD album or a DSD playlist gaplessly was never a problem). That' s a real plus to me.
Thanks for the link, Russ. What would also be nice would be a tool that can re-convert DoP back to dff. As I understand it, currently there is no way to do this, hence everything needs to be double-backed-up (keeping the original dff or ISOs).
Dave, I agree with you about this. Therefore I like Daphile. It converts DSD to DoP on-the-fly.
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Russ.. something that's maybe interesting to you. I updated Daphile today and now you can choose the player: SqueezePlay or the new alternative Squeezelite.
I'll check that out. Thanks.
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I updated Daphile over the weekend and you're right. Using the squeezelite option, DSF file playback transitions are much smoother. Thanks for the tip.
Russ
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Russ, does your Benchmark DAC have relay clicks when switching from PCM to DSD? Mine does and thank of Squeezelite now my DAC remains in "DSD-mode" when skipping to the next/previous tracks and also after the last song of a DSD album/playlist. A real advantage opposite to SqueezePlay. With a noiseless DAC (without any relay clicks) you are already a lucky fellow, no matter if with SqueezePlay or Squeezelite :)
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I've been through this thread, but I'm not certain I understood how everything came out vis a vis using the Touch with the Teac UD-501.
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I've been through this thread, but I'm not certain I understood how everything came out vis a vis using the Touch with the Teac UD-501.
Your best option is to PM bprice2 and find out directly from him how he got it to work. I think he had to use a USB 2.0 hub between the SBT and DAC but I don't know the details.
Russ
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PM already sent :)
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Folks, I wonder if any of you could try something for me as an experiment to see if you get the same results as me? The thing is, I am still awaiting delivery of my first DSD DAC, so am as yet unable to test my DoP files in my SB Touch.
I have been creating DoP FLACs in Foobar - which is buggy as hell, and more than half the time I just get 24-bit PCM FLACs regardless of the settings :duh:, but sometimes I can get it to work.
I test my DoP FLACs in VLC, because I know VLC cannot play DSD. So I just get lots of hiss. Great, that's what one should expect, and suggests the conversion has worked! :)
HOWEVER, if I turn the VLC volume up to the max, I can very faintly hear the music under the hiss! WTF! :? That shouldn't be possible, should it? :scratch: Could someone else try playing a DoP file in VLC and let me know if they can hear music please?
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Nada? :(
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This might be stupid question but I am totally novice with these hirez file formats. You are talking here about DSF or DFF files but I don't have any and to be honest I don't even know what they are. However I have few ISO files which are ripped from SACD? Can ISO files be used also?
I installed foo_input_packeddsd.dll and verified that it was installed ok. I converted the ISO file to FLAC and it went ok. However I was expecting that files would be much bigger than the files wich are converted normal WAV files but they are not. Also the frequencies are just 44khz. I guess that is not ok.
It would be great if anyone could help me a bit.
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I got it now. I appreciate your great help!
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is this possible with a mac?
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I´m not sure if this has already been asked in this thread. In case I´ve missed it pls apologize and point me to the post.
My question is regarding the PCM Sample Rate setting in Foobar. Is this always set to 176400 (independent of having either a DSD64 or DS128 file)?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers.
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For anyone still using the ole' trusty SB Touch...you can now play DSD (DSF, DFF) 2 channel files natively via USB. You'll need to update LMS to 7.9 and the Touch to 7.8 and add the DSDPlayer plug-in along with the EDO app. This is all part of the work completed by Triode.
I'm outputting Brothers in Arms in DSF to the Modwright Oppo BDP-105D via DOP (not DOP Flac) as I write this.
LMS 7.9 and Touch FW 7.8 also allow WAV files up to 24/192k, you no longer have to have Flac for anything greater than 24/96.
Just google the SB Touch and LMS 7.9. It's all there. There is a lot to go through, but it works!!
Mark
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Thanks. What do you see as the advantage of doing this. If you pre-prepare DSD Files in FLAC for DOP, I can make use of rich tagging. It seems what this plugin does is take the raw stream --- but wouldn't I lose tagging in that case?
Thanks again.
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All the tags on my DSF files are there and show in LMS and also on iPeng 7.
I tagged all of my DSF files using DBPoweramp.
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So the advantage to this plugin is you can maintain the original files and not have to create DoP versions of them and waste space?
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Yep no need to convert to Dop Flac at all. The Touch will play native DSF/DFF, of course DFF files can't be tagged.
The DSDPlayer plug-in allows you to select DSD over PCM (DoP) if your DAC requires DoP.
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Thanks.....so it allows native streaming...I got the impression that it converts everything to DoP on the fly in the way it works. This is very cool. I guess the problem I will have is everything talks over WiFi 802.11n bridges in my network. So the FLAC prepositioning allows 2:1 file compression and no issues streaming DSD64 files as (176.4Khz DoP). I am thinking if I went to native streaming I may have bandwidth issues, but I will try it and see.
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Native streaming is not the correct term (ASIO is a native stream; DoP is the process of including "native" unconverted DSD in a 24/176k+ PCM stream, unconverted to PCM but not as direct as ASIO). It's still DoP, but does not need the extra steps of user containerizing.
DoP Flac containerizing is a stop gap redundant exercise that was created for those hardware players (like SB Touch) that can't recognize normal DSD files coming over the wire (normal DoP does not require a manual effort to do a FLAC container; it simply uses 24/176k PCM to pack DSD and a flag telling the DAC that it is indeed either DSD or PCM). Containerizing is an unnecessary exercise if the hardware player and DAC support normal DoP. That is the case now with LMS 7.9 and the plugins/apps. Thanks to Mark (golfugh) for the heads up.
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Thanks for the clarification Ted!
Mark
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No, as I said, thank you. Many SB customers will be thrilled! My comment was about DoP vs native streaming. Almost everything out there is DoP these days, except for the exaSounds and Myteks of the world. Writing direct ASIO drivers is no fun...but worthwhile. :)
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Native streaming is not the correct term (ASIO is a native stream; DoP is the process of including "native" unconverted DSD in a 24/176k+ PCM stream, unconverted to PCM but not as direct as ASIO). It's still DoP, but does not need the extra steps of user containerizing.
DoP Flac containerizing is a stop gap redundant exercise that was created for those hardware players (like SB Touch) that can't recognize normal DSD files coming over the wire (normal DoP does not require a manual effort to do a FLAC container; it simply uses 24/176k PCM to pack DSD and a flag telling the DAC that it is indeed either DSD or PCM). Containerizing is an unnecessary exercise if the hardware player and DAC support normal DoP. That is the case now with LMS 7.9 and the plugins/apps. Thanks to Mark (golfugh) for the heads up.
OK this makes more sense to me.....I thought it would rather magical if somehow the SBT HW supported native streams. It is all DoP on the wire, and the plugin just does this on the fly. I presume it does it as FLAC too on the fly? If so....it maybe too CPU intensive for my little Atom :(
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No, normal DoP does not then containerize to FLAC. Defeats the purpose! DoP is not CPU intensive, but yes theoretically it uses more CPU than straight PCM, but likely same as decompressing a FLAC or OGG container. Nothing to worry about.
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I was looking at the slimdevices forums thread......the plugin optionally allows native DSF/DFF streaming without DoP if supported by DAC:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?101641-LMS-7-9-and-DSD/page9
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Cool! I'll give this a try.
Russ
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I have to add that the Touch is driving me nuts trying to connect to the Oppo! It was working all morning, but had to power down everything for a T storm and now it can't find the Oppo USB in.
Whereas, it finds the PS Audio PWD II every time.
Argh
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I have to add that the Touch is driving me nuts trying to connect to the Oppo! It was working all morning, but had to power down everything for a T storm and now it can't find the Oppo USB in.
Whereas, it finds the PS Audio PWD II every time.
Argh
I have it working with an Oppo HA-1 without issue, but it may use a different USB setup. That is with DoP --- I haven't tried native streams yet with it and the plugin.
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I think it has to do with input change on the Oppo. If you power it down or use it as a disc player the Touch loses the USB connection to the Oppo. Don't know why?
The 105D is DSD over DoP only.
Interestingly I can hot swap into the PWD without issue. It sees it, I select the PWD USB in the Touch Digital outs and it reboots and plays. Hmm??
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I think it has to do with input change on the Oppo. If you power it down or use it as a disc player the Touch loses the USB connection to the Oppo. Don't know why?
The 105D is DSD over DoP only.
If I power off the Oppo-HA-1 I need to reboot the Touch to see it again. If I change the input (say to toslink/Coax etc...) and back to USB --- the connection persists.
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Need to figure this out, have to sell the PWD II or the wife will kill me after getting the MW mod on the 105D! Ha!
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Fixed...shorter cable! Common knowledge I know, but something to think about when using the Touch USB out (never intended for audio out) into your DAC of choice. Went from a 1.5m to a 3 foot cable and all is well.
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For anyone still using the ole' trusty SB Touch...you can now play DSD (DSF, DFF) 2 channel files natively via USB. You'll need to update LMS to 7.9 and the Touch to 7.8 and add the DSDPlayer plug-in along with the EDO app. This is all part of the work completed by Triode.
I'm outputting Brothers in Arms in DSF to the Modwright Oppo BDP-105D via DOP (not DOP Flac) as I write this.
LMS 7.9 and Touch FW 7.8 also allow WAV files up to 24/192k, you no longer have to have Flac for anything greater than 24/96.
Just google the SB Touch and LMS 7.9. It's all there. There is a lot to go through, but it works!!
Mark
Works like a charm. Thanks.
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Works like a charm. Thanks.
+1 :thumb:
Thanks bprice2 - and also to golfugh for all of his help. This is fantastic!
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Is there a way to convert the DoP FLAC back into DSF?
Thanks!
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I just read through this thread, among many others, and I just want to clarify how to set up my network.
All my music (including DSD64 / .dsf files) is on my computer in my office. My SBT is location with my stereo system in the living room. I have used a home wired network to connect everything thus far.
The amp/dac I use is a Hegel H360, which is listed as supported in the Google Excel Doc. So I'm thinking that the following setup should work:
Office PC w/ JRiver streaming over ethernet cable to SBT -> (EDO) USB-Out on SBT to USB-In on H360.
So should essentially move a DSD file over the network, through the SBT, out the USB port so the H360 can play it (only input to play DSD).
Does this seem to be correct??!
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You can stream directly to the H360. Make sure your PC runs MinimServer (A UPnP server) or something similar. Your H360 will be able to access the music directly without using SBT at all. Also, look for a good NAS to move all your music files to.