AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: TheChairGuy on 26 Nov 2007, 08:14 pm
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I posted this on another forum yesterday...so I thought I'd copy it over for the benefit of those here at Audio Circle's Vinyl Circle....also, it's been kinda' quiet around here and we need something vinyl-related to chew on :wink:
Part 1: Preamble
I'm 44, had the hi-fi bug for about 30 years now. First table was a JVC (belt drive) JL-A20...shorn with various MM cartridges, and filled with 15 lbs of mortite inside and out...it made good music back then. It died in a freak fire at my dealers shop...who was showing it off to customers (bass was amazing - no feedback with all that mortite on it).
I replaced it with a Thorens TD-316...with Grace F-9e...for $500...but, it never made music like my old JVC with all the mortite on it :(
I replaced it with a Townshend Rock / Helius Orion / modded Grado and was in heaven. I had to sell it for rent money about a year after buying it Sad I loved that combo...years later I realize it may be as much the natural. powerful Grado that I liked as much as the TT/arm combo. Now, I was back to my backup, the Thorens.
1992 rolls around and my wife buys me a nice Rotel RCD-965BX CD player. It's good...better than the Thorens...so I mostly play CD's. And, am miserable when playing tunes :nono:
Late in '93, I embark on what is now my 3rd business venture. Knowing how obsessed Shocked I can get with audio...I box up and store all my gear. It was not until early 2000, when my 2nd venture was successful enough and I had gotten the hang of 'marriage' did I break them out of their boxes.
The Thorens, now shorn with a Shure V15 (the last one made) and the Rotel CDP carrying most tunes the tunes. Again, I listened to the CD mostly, the Thorens doesn't make convincing music to me, and am miserable with the tunes, overall.
In 2003, I dig deep in my wallet and spring for a $4500 digital front end. And, I'm still miserable with the music. More miserable as I eventually sell this system in 2006 for $1300 :(
A year later in 2004, hearing the hub-bub about direct drive...I buy a junker JVC QL-A2 DD deck off ebay for $60. I ram 12 lbs of Plast-i-Clay in her (softer then mortite rope caulk to work with), set up on some isolation and all...and am gobsmacked with musical happiness.
I sell my Thorens on Audiogon, with Shure, for what I can get for it.
Late 2005, I buy a used VPI HW-19 Mk. III on ebay...the Rega 250 tonearm was badly wired and the motor is on it's last legs. So, I really don't get a good sense of it's capabilities with lousy wired arm (I changed the motor out to a newer / old one and it no linger has the shakes)
I buy another direct drive, another JVC, the QL-F6 in early 2006. Larger platter, heavier, better tonearm construction and internally (adjustable) oil damped in both horizontal and vertical planes. All for $100...with minty ADC XLM Mk. III Improved. I pound 11 lbs of Plast-i-Clay in her, set her up nicely isolated with as assortment of cartridges and just love music again at a whole new level of enjoyment.
A week ago, I finally decide to re-wire the Rega with Incognito..it already has the Expressimo stub, dropped counterweight and VTA adjustment. So, the VPI HW-19 MK. III is ready to face-off with the JVC QL-F6. Once, and for all, I hope to decide for myself (for sane money) which I prefer - direct drive or belt tables.
Odds strongly favor the direct drive for me....once you take care of the platter ringing and set it up on good isolation..it makes great music. The HW-19 is 48 lbs of well-executed belt drive, suspended and with the great modded tonearm on it now.
I'm completely agnostic actually...I honestly don't care which one sounds better as long as one clearly and convincingly does.
The stage is set for a showdown on a lazy Sunday where we do little but Holiday decorations, a little TV, some chit-chat on the phone.....and for me, vinyl playback :guitar:
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Part II / Face-off - for those of you with attention deficit disorder :lol:
The Tale of the Tape...
VPI HW-19 Mk. IIIwith Rega 250 and extras (circa 1996) $1200.00 list
$850.00 - paid on ebay
$60 - used motor
$310 - Incognito
$200 - Ortofon X5-MC (list $329.00)
$2 - 6" high 'Swim Noodle' supports for DIY SAMA effort (recommended by Mike at VPI
Total - USD$1422.00
JVC QL-F6 (circa 1979) $350 list price
$100.00 - paid on ebay
$40.00 - 10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay
$60.00 - Grado Green
$69.00 - Grado G1+ (stylus moved to the Green)
$100.00 - AudioQuest sorbothane mat (sub-mat)
$60.00 - Herbie's Way Excellent Mat (top mat)
$8.00 - DupliColor UC103 sound deadening spray (platter underside)
Total - USD$437.00
Tables supported on 3.5" thick block of maple, 4 pointy toes pointed downward.....all records scrupulously cleaned by a Nitty Gritty RCM.
Game over in 5 notes this fine day...but I played all day hoping it changed and to allow further break in of the Incognito wire (seems like no break in needed as it sounded the same the first minute and the 10th hour to me)
The cheapie JVC was my preference - 100% - on jazz, classical, pop, avante garde (techno-pop), reggae, country and rock. It didn't matter - it had the speed control of CD, with the innate 'rightness' that vinyl alone among formats allows. Bass was tight, no wobble to voices or instruments, the midrange more exact...only in the treble did I find parity of sound.
Perhaps precise speed regulation mostly effects the lower 2/3 of the musical spectrum? The VPI was quieter - sounds came from an inky silence, overall ...but whether that was due to the belt drive, the cartridge (lower inductance Ortofon vs. Grado), or the effect of the shielded outer Incognito wire (the JVC has cheap fixed leads)....the JVC triumphed, conclusively for me.
It was all about pitch and or speed regulation. I know another $700-$1000 would buy a VPI SDS speed control...but it's a lot of money for what can be found, new or used, in a direct drive deck today' ya' know :roll:
Quartz Lock, Servo Controlled DC can be had on various models from Technics, JVC and others licensed by Matsushita for ultra-precise speed regulation for a few hundred dollars new or used.
I am completely agnostic to the results - I care only that Direct Drive won out - and it was a decisive one, for me / for sure.
Those of you buying into the conventional audiophile wisdom of belt drive superiority, should have a listen to a properly sorted (ringing platter issue dealt with, most notably) Direct Drive front end. It's really quite a revelation :o
Please don't anybody jump over me for this post - it is done only to serve as an example, or guide. It just seems to me that a more cost effective means of achieving great vinyl fidelity can be had with direct drive. That's all that it is meant to achieve. If you prefer not believe my conclusion - you may - and good luck to you on your vinyl odyssey.
I may not be sophisticated enough to hear something inherent in the VPI today...but I cannot deny what I did hear.
Please be nice fella's - it's all just my opinion and my findings - and not any foolproof results :)
John
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Unless all things are equal, the same arm, cartridge, phono stage etc - how objective can this really be?
John
PS: I think it's great when someone finds something that works exceptionally well that undoes their expectations in the face of more costly gear.
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Unless all things are equal, the same arm, cartridge, phono stage etc - how objective can this really be?
John
PS: I think it's great when someone finds something that works exceptionally well that undoes their expectations in the face of more costly gear.
Ditto. I would think that a less expensive belt drive TT with speed control would give different results. I have speed control box on my TT and it's just as you noted that pitch is directly related to rotation stability. However what a fun project. So what do you plan to do with the belt drive TT?
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John,
The JVC has no ability to have the same arm on it as the VPI...so having the exact same downstream components and the exact same base isolation will have to do in this particular case :wink:
The differences were consistent throughout the day...and I have used both cartridges on a variety of cartridges and arms now, so their respective strengths and weakness' are pretty well known to me.
btw, I changed to a new belt this morning and the speed issue improved, but not dramatically.
Interestingly, as my PC is now on in the room, the VPI is demonstrably worse sounding today. When my PC is on in the room and the JVC is playing, it doesn't sound dramatically worse. I think the tighter controlled Quartz Lock, DC Servo drive does a better job of keeping speed with inclement line conditions. I don't use power conditioning currently.
The VPI almost begs for a dedicated conditioner or SDS supply unit...but at $700-$100 more for it. That's a lot of clamola's :roll:
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Ditto. I would think that a less expensive belt drive TT with speed control would give different results. I have speed control box on my TT and it's just as you noted that pitch is directly related to rotation stability. However what a fun project. So what do you plan to do with the belt drive TT?
ricmon, hi, u may just be right. All that 48 lb mass seems to be mostly wasted with the VPI without speed regulation..... a better test for similar $1400 spent on belt drive might be a Rega P2 or P3, upgraded arm and a Heed or Rega outboard speed control. I think Rega might have the equation right...cheap plinth, great arm, outboard speed control for most satisfactory value-oriented results for belt driven vinylphelia.
Oh, well...I learned a lot with this all. The VPI is staying for a while as I need it as my belt drive test mule for further devil-ish experimentation :evil:
I'm thinking of other (direct drive) decks that I could use the uber-modded Rega 250 tonearm on....as I could then assess how what portion of the VPI's presentation is arm related and what portion is deck related?
The Ortofon X5-MC NEVER had such plentiful bass before...so I know the arm a major part of this equation.
John
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FWIW, the buzz from RMAF was that when the DD was compared to the belt drive in the Teres Audio room, feedback was universally in favor of the DD. This is with the same table and setup. Apparently it wasn't that subtle like a cable change, it was rather obvious.
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Yup - and in this topic a few months ago, too:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40160.0
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Well...I'm the guy who bought the Rega Planar 3 off eBay and has just about decided that with the tweaks it will take to get it to audiophile "snuff", I might want to look at a new TT with a warranty. the Marantz/Clearaudio unit (yes, it's belt-drive) with the Clearaudo wood cart is VERY tempting. This vinyl forum with it's strong leaning toward the DD Technics is interesting.
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Hey Hank....yes, there is a lot of direct drive enthusiasts here...but I hope it doesn't scare away all others involved. It's a small enough group, us vinylphiles, so we cannot lose a one of 'em :wink:
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FWIW, the buzz from RMAF was that when the DD was compared to the belt drive in the Teres Audio room, feedback was universally in favor of the DD. This is with the same table and setup. Apparently it wasn't that subtle like a cable change, it was rather obvious.
Yep. Actually his new rim drive setup compared to the belt drive was pretty drastically different and IMO much better. The DD was superior but I could live with my current TT with the rim drive upgrade. Part of me wants to lay hands on a DD Technics and play tho. :)
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I know VPI makes quality products, but I have heard the Mk-III and the Scout in other people's systems and I felt they emphasized the lower registers more than I care for and did not have the same dynamics of other belt drive turntables I have heard.
My first turntable I owned (as a teenager 28 years ago) was a Sony PS-2 DD turntable with a servo lock, a stock tone arm, and a high-end vintage Shure cartridge. I enjoyed it until I left for college, and then I would listen to it during the summers when I returned home from school. I eventually stopped listening to vinyl after I graduated.
Several years ago I decided to get back into vinyl so I could listen to my hundreds of records I still owned but had not heard. I tried the Sony turntable and it did not sound nearly as good as I remembered. I bought a Project RM4 belt drive turntable with a Blue Point cartridge (an investment of $350 used) to try a belt drive TT and it sounded considerably better than the Sony. The RM4 beat several other turntables in a $1000 or less shootout and was noted for having very good speed control, and after owning it I would have to agree.
After the Project RM4, I moved to a Nottingham Interspace with an extra heavy platter, an Origin Live OL1 arm, and a Dynavector DV-20XH cartridge and it was very quiet and was a further improvement over the Project RM4.
The next turntable on my upgrade path was an Origin Live Kit TT (where I eventually got the upgraded motor and transformer), an Origin Live Silver Reference arm (with the TWL tweak), and a Shelter 901 cartridge. Now we are talking! This had the dynamic slam I wanted, with excellent pitch control that did not waver, and the analog rightness that makes vinyl my preferred listening medium. It was so good that when I finally was able to move on to my current reference system I used this in my secondary system.
My current reference is an Origin Live Resolution turntable with an Illustrious Arm and a ZYX copper 0.24mv cartridge. This represents sonic nirvana for me and I have not heard a system yet I would trade for it. From my progression of TT's I have found that I like a suspended, belt drive system, and Origin Live has executed this better than any other turntables I have been able to hear.
The folks here all seem to be fans of the Technics SL-1200 turntables and I would like to hear one some day. If I had not owned the Origin Live turntables and personally measured with a 1000 Hz test signal that my turntable played at 1000 Hz and did not waver, I would probably opt for a DD because I agree that speed and pitch control are paramount in quality vinyl playback.
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Hey Greg - great (informative) post! :thumb:
John
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FWIW, I was recently speaking with Jonathan Weiss (of Oswald's Mill Audio) about some other stuff, and we got on the topic of belt-drive vs. DD. Jonathan is a big DD fan, but he made the comment that big heavy platters like my Teres and Walker, etc are basically flywheels. When you think about it, its obvious. The weight creates rotational inertia which is what the flywheel replicates. So the different technologies both strive to use the same physics to accomplish their goals.
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Hey Greg - great (informative) post! :thumb:
John
I agree and a nice analog system.
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FWIW, I was recently speaking with Jonathan Weiss (of Oswald's Mill Audio) about some other stuff, and we got on the topic of belt-drive vs. DD. Jonathan is a big DD fan, but he made the comment that big heavy platters like my Teres and Walker, etc are basically flywheels. When you think about it, its obvious. The weight creates rotational inertia which is what the flywheel replicates. So the different technologies both strive to use the same physics to accomplish their goals.
I'd agree with that, Josh....but, the VPI has a fairly substantial 13 lb cork and lead affair and it still has speed regulation issues vis-a-vis the JVC....with a Quartz Lock, DC Servo and a 6 lb platter (including mats). Seems to me a more cost effective implementation for highly regulated speed control would be a direct drive motor and DC servo.
Denon used AC Servo - maybe that's as good - don't know, never tried it (oh no, I feel an urge coming :icon_lol:)
Further, with AC line interference (dimmers, TV's, monitors, appliances, PC's, etc on in the house) causes further degradation of the speed accuracy a belt drive deck with a synchronous AC motor, even with a goodly sized flywheel / platter, can achieve.
I could move to the VPI next-up platter (27 lbs) to see if that's enough to gain further flywheel advantage...but it's some $400 (I think) to do so. An outboard SDS controller, which locks in a 60hz sinewave to completely lock in speed regulation for the VPI - is $700 (used) to $1000 (new). All this spent and all we might get for it is 98% of the speed control of a properly sorted direct drive deck....for 4+ times the money spent...without a stretchy belt eventually mucking up the speed regulation yet once again down the line.
Seems to me, after my head to head face off the other day, that the Japanese figured out this cost-effective equation best in 1979...then moved on to CD and DVD's for their next challenge :)
John
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Not all designed are created equal. To tell the truth, I have no idea on which is best, just sharing things I heard or read. I have a Teres belt-drive fwiw, but I don't think it has to be the best because I own it. I am open-minded, or try to be.
P.S. the economist in me (what little there is) wants to argue that it is hard to beat economies of scale. Just because the mass producers' goods cost less doesn't mean it will underperform. That is what I'd keep in the back of my mind.
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Denon used AC Servo - maybe that's as good - don't know, never tried it (oh no, I feel an urge coming :icon_lol:)
I have a Denon DP-75. This has terrific speed stability. Its my #2 turntable. Using a stethoscope, it is obviously quieter than my R-O-K idler. Its on an after-market plinth with a layered floating sub-chassis made from layers of a lead alloy and Masonite. I mounted an old VM professional arm on it that was a lot of work to make fit (it was originally an integrated arm not made to be taken off). Very nice deck.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2390/1528757238_08687186c4.jpg?v=0)
Sorry for the faded pic. I need to retake this sometime.
Dave :)
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Well...I'm the guy who bought the Rega Planar 3 off eBay and has just about decided that with the tweaks it will take to get it to audiophile "snuff", I might want to look at a new TT with a warranty. the Marantz/Clearaudio unit (yes, it's belt-drive) with the Clearaudo wood cart is VERY tempting. This vinyl forum with it's strong leaning toward the DD Technics is interesting.
when you look at the complete package the Marantz is a great buy. A whole lot of it depends on whatkind of budgit your operating on. I bought a Consance Opera 2.0 for $1700 delivered to my front door new in the box. Came with two sets of tonearm mounts
(Rega & SME), and with one more spacer I could mount two tonearms on it. How does it sound? About 90% of what my Final Tool sounds like (a really unfair comparison as the Final Tool used a lesser tonearm). But by the time you got it playing music you'd have about $2500 in it (D103 cartridge & Rega tonearm). The VPI Scouts are another good buy, but the Scoutmaster is by far the better table. You can buy factory referbished Sotas directly from Sota, and they are a great table.
gary
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VPI has a new “drive Wheel” as they call it. It should be out next year as a upgrade but like
some have said with the SDS controller the price gets a little too high for what you get back.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72076 (http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72076)
(http://www.musicdirect.com/shared/images/products/large/VPI_SSM_motor.jpg)
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P.S. the economist in me (what little there is) wants to argue that it is hard to beat economies of scale. Just because the mass producers' goods cost less doesn't mean it will underperform. That is what I'd keep in the back of my mind.
Econ-o-Josh :)
I'm not trained as one, but I think like one...as this is always foremost in my mind when selecting (audio or video) equipment :thumb:
That is a dang interesting announcement about VPI, PeteG :o
John
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Hey Greg - great (informative) post!
John
Thanks John, I am glad you enjoyed it. I enjoy reading posts here on AC and I have learned a lot so I am glad when I can find time to contribute once in awhile.
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It's good to give, Greg :wink:
Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in. So, I'll give it another 15 hours or so until making a final determination about the VPI/Rega combo. If wire is having 'phasey/break-in' issues, it can cause a type of error message in my head when listening to it.
Honestly, the combo sounded quite good at first and has gotten worse - the exact way I've noticed countless new pieces of wire sounding to me in the past. So, it may well be some break-in occurring. I'll reserve further and final judgement/verdict until then :drums:
Let me put a plug in for Michael at Brit Audio. For one, he's really a Brit - not just acting. For another, his service is excellent - he did the re-wire on the same day it arrived there...packed it up and sent it out better wrapped then he even received it from me. He shipped it the next day.
Using USPS Priority Mail to traverse the 2800 miles each way, it was back in my grubby hands in only 6 days :o
Truly - fantastic service by both Brit Audio and the US Postal Service :thumb:
John
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It's good to give, Greg :wink:
Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in.
Let me put a plug in for Michael at Brit Audio. For one, he's really a Brit - not just acting. For another, his service is excellent - he did the re-wire on the same day it arrived there...packed it up and sent it out better wrapped then he even received it from me. He shipped it the next day.
Using USPS Priority Mail to traverse the 2800 miles each way, it was back in my grubby hands in only 6 days :o
Truly - fantastic service by both Brit Audio and the US Postal Service :thumb:
John
Interesting to hear Brit Audio mentioned here. I purchased from them a J A Michell Tecnoweight for my RB600, great transaction. However, I've tried to access their website in the past couple weeks with no success. Anyone have any idea what's up? FYI - site addy = www.britaudio.com/ (http://www.britaudio.com/) When I go to the Google cached file, it shows the website was last updated 11/18/07. Weird.
EDIT - I finally could get the products page to load, went to: http://www.britaudio.com/AllProducts.html (http://www.britaudio.com/AllProducts.html). However, 1) I can't get anything else to load; and 2) subsequently the products page would NOT load. If someone has Mike's e-mail, perhaps it'd be nice to let him know about the site issues.
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It's good to give, Greg :wink:
Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in. So, I'll give it another 15 hours or so until making a final determination about the VPI/Rega combo. If wire is having 'phasey/break-in' issues, it can cause a type of error message in my head when listening to it.
John
Now why would a phono wire, with a wee tiny signal in it, only take 30 hours to break in when interconnects and speaker wire, with relatively larger signal strength in them, take 100 hours or more? If you have a tonearm rewired, or get a new tonearm cable, the best thing to do is to wire up a jig to some RCA jacks. Plug these RCA's into the output of your CD player and the wired jig to your tonearm headshell clips. Then run your CD on repeat, using the tonearm and its wire as the interconnect into your preamp. Much better burn in then relying on a very weak signal from your cartridge to burn in that new cable - it would take 1000 hours or more the old fashioned way!
Enjoy,
Bob
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djbnh
Hi - Michael's email is teatime66@hotmail.com. Everything opens up just peachy for me each time - in Mozilla (my default browser)
BobM
Except for magnet wire and Alpha-Core Goertz stuff....I, too, have found break ins to be longer than 30 hours. I don't have your technical savvy...so I'll have to break it in the old fashioned way :(
My belief on the whole break in issue, due to the minimal or no break-in time needed for the magnet wire and Alpha-Core stuff, is that it is dialectric burn-in that we are all waiting on, not ht wire itself. The magnet wire and Alpha-Core have very, very thin dialectrics - good for less interaction with the wire - that take nearly no time to burn/break in.
Teflon dialetrics seem to take the longest for whatever reason...the common plastic jackets on zip cords and cheap Monster / Radio Shack cable doesn't take that long either.
The Cardas uses teflon - so it'll probably need a good long break-in time at these milli-voltages, as Bob points out. Fortunately, I work at home, so a good week of playback should do it. btw, it is sounding better at about hour 18 as of last night....I found myself bopping my head to Genesis 'Duke'...something I haven't done listening to the VPI in about 17 hours. It IS sounding better...Brit Audio should probably state that somewhere in his threadbare website about break-in. It's a lot harder to break in phono than line level components, especially as most audiophools have manual decks that require assistance.
Brit Audio only tests for continuity of teh connections, no burn in there
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djbnh
Hi - Michael's email is teatime66@hotmail.com. Everything opens up just peachy for me each time - in Mozilla (my default browser)
I've tried Mozilla Firefox (my default), IE, and Netscape - nothing doing. I know he has an eBay presence, and I can view some of his offerings there.
Also, TheChairGuy - can you clear your cache then see if his pages display?
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It's good to give, Greg :wink:
Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in. So, I'll give it another 15 hours or so until making a final determination about the VPI/Rega combo. If wire is having 'phasey/break-in' issues, it can cause a type of error message in my head when listening to it.
Honestly, the combo sounded quite good at first and has gotten worse - the exact way I've noticed countless new pieces of wire sounding to me in the past. So, it may well be some break-in occurring. I'll reserve further and final judgement/verdict until then :drums:
Let me put a plug in for Michael at Brit Audio. For one, he's really a Brit - not just acting. For another, his service is excellent - he did the re-wire on the same day it arrived there...packed it up and sent it out better wrapped then he even received it from me. He shipped it the next day.
Using USPS Priority Mail to traverse the 2800 miles each way, it was back in my grubby hands in only 6 days :o
Truly - fantastic service by both Brit Audio and the US Postal Service :thumb:
John
I used them years ago to rewire a AQ PT-7 arm on a previous TT I had, very good service. Takes a little while to break-in.
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djbnh
Everything opens for me just fine...even in Explorer. It seems to even work faster in IE, however.
Maybe you have a Malware/Spyware program interfering with his site? Might want to look at it if you have...some (like Spyware Blaster) have restricted sites - maybe Brit Audio is on it for some earthly reason(?)
There is always of course that fantastic fix-it of shutting down and booting up again :roll:
John
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The VPI Scouts are another good buy, but the Scoutmaster is by far the better table. You can buy factory referbished Sotas directly from Sota, and they are a great table.
Gary, thanks for the tip on a factory refurbed SOTA - I'll check their web site.
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djbnh
Maybe you have a Malware/Spyware program interfering with his site? Might want to look at it if you have...some (like Spyware Blaster) have restricted sites - maybe Brit Audio is on it for some earthly reason(?)
John
John,
Good input. I shut down BlackIce, and the site came through. Thanks again. :thumb:
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I guess someone will have to explain the theory of wire break-in to me. Pure copper atoms are more than happy to pass on electrons while the insulator is not. I have never witnessed such a "break-in" in my entire life. I think what people perceive as a break-in is actually the brain adjusting and learning the way something sounds and soon decides that it likes it. In other words, it is psychological, not physical.....at least until someone can prove the theory, in MHO.
W :o
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I'll pass on commenting, Wayner...if you don't hear break-in, consider yourself fortunate :)
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Soooo....I joined the swollen ranks of audiophool Technics SL-1200 MK. II owners today...I bought (what I hope is) a gently used 1200 from ebay.
The arm looks abused...but I'm only interested in hearing the arm for a few moments 'cause I also today bought one of these aa:
http://www.tonearm.co.uk/dj-technics-arm.htm
I'm gonna' (hopefully) once and for all mate an excellent deck / best value today (at least for speed control)....with one of the best tonearms out there, the modded Rega 250. I have the Expressimo VTA adjuster so I won't lose that ability either.
I'm looking forward to putting this tandem together soon and reporting back.
As previously mentioned, I have never heard the Ortofon X5-MC sound as good as it does mated to the Rega...I figure if it can improve that cartridge, it MUST be a as nice an arm as many say. I'll miss semi-auto function of my much-loved JVC, tho :cry:
Another week - another vinyl project - I LOVE it - I'm stoked!!
John
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Get better soon, lcrim (Larry)! He's relaxing and reading Audio Circle now after surgery recently.
A few of you may be wondering why I'm moving right to the Rega arm on the Technics...rather than sticking with KAB's (easier) damping trough mod with the existing arm. Tho, most of you don't give a shit...and that seems very healthy :lol:
I bought the deck for only $125.00 on ebay...the Origin Live adaptor was $75.00...so I'm $200.00 less in the hole than I'd be for a new Technics 1200 with factory arm. $50-$100.00 less than most used ones as they fetch a pretty good price even used. This was cheap 'cause the armrest was busted - not an issue for me as I'm replacing the arm.
Another reason, it's not that big a job....one reviewer did it in 45 minutes: http://www.tonearm.co.uk/Technics_sl1200_1210_dj_turntable.pdf
I've already determined that a damping trough helps performance HUGELY by cooking up a homebrew trough for my earlier 'junker' JVC QL-A2 deck:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/albut74/Damping_Trough.jpg)
What hasn't been known is that I did the same with the Rega arm and it had likewise good, but NOT excellent results...tho, the only place I could secure it was at the end of the tonearm on my VPI:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=7522)
With the Rega attached to the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II I should have room to fashion a trough in the more advantageous spot before the arm pillar...not after it.
Hell, what I'd really like to do is fashion a trough in front of the headshell...a la Townshend, where I think it does the most good damping resonances even before it enters the armtube.
THAT man has been on to something for nearly 30 years now:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12571)
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John, Interesting project you have going on ! While I too had a favorite DD / TT back in "the day" ( Kenwood KD-500, Premier MMT arm, Grace F-9e super cart) I must say my present set-up which is belt driven has yielded me the most sonic pleasure to date.
Currently using a VPI Aries 3, 10.5i arm, VPI/DynaVector 20x cart., with synchronization being performed by a VPI SDS unit.
I understand those who love the suspended systems but I'm lucky enough to have my TT well isolated and the floor that it resides on is carpet over concrete rather than suspended wooden structure.
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I have never witnessed such a "break-in" in my entire life. I think what people perceive as a break-in is actually the brain adjusting and learning the way something sounds and soon decides that it likes it. In other words, it is psychological, not physical
Wayner, I agree. I've been around longer than most here, I'd wager, from building an H.H. Scott LK48B as a teen about 1967 to building speakers the past several years. I've know lots of audiophools, from DIY-ers to guys with tube equipment that cost 1/4 the cost of their house. I really believe the "break-in" is acclimation to a piece of audio equipment in a person's system, from front end to I/C's to speaker cables. My analogy is the phsychological attachment to a new piece of gear, becoming used to its sound and then being a strong proponent (witness the heavily weighted Technics leaning of this forum). After all, who would say: that last piece of gear I agonized over, A-B'd, read reviews, listened to critically and purchased, is good, okay, fine. The majority of time when money committed, then our subjective sound perception is parallel committed. Hey, I'm no different! :green:
Flame suit now donned.
I say ENJOY what you eventually commit to :thumb:
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I'm thinking that the only time I've 'witnessed' the phenomenom of break-in with various wire used...is when they have teflon dialectric/insulation. I really think the teflon imparts some sort of something into the proceeding...that needs hours to work it's way thru.
It's usually a lot of hours, too. Maybe teflon is such a tough insulator that it just takes longer to work it's way thru. Maybe the reason it works as a protective sheath so well, is the same reason we 'hear' it so regularly.
Cheaper cables, usually using non-teflon insulation (for cost, generally) suffer from zero break-in that I can tell.
However, whether it's teflon or even 'air-dialectric' with a teflon tube...I absolutely hear it's effects - and it's nasty stuff. Cheap wire, from Radio Shack or other, or magnet wire or even Alpha-Core wire (which specifically uses a very thin dialectric of non-teflon construction) has zero break-in effects.
So, Wayner (maybe Hank, too), if you've never used wire with teflon insulation may well NOT have heard break-in effect.
I know it's there - and when it's not there - and there are likely reasons for both. The reason I think it is is because of the interaction with teflon and copper (or silver) wiring.
John
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In another forum someone mentioned I might have inadvertently rigged the competition to the direct drive's benefit.
So, I'm tightening up the differences and tossing even more the way of the belt drive VPI.
I bought a new tonearm and mounting board for it....an Audioquest PT-6. The arm has fluid damping - a must to get the goods from the Grado. Then, I fitted it with my Grado G1+ (shibata stylus). THEN - I bought an audio buddies custom outer record clamp made by Sound Engineering, LLP:
http://www.soundengineeringllp.com/productdisplay.asp?id=1
It has a nifty VTAF (VTA on the Fly) from Pete Riggle that allows for easy VTA adjustment, but leaves the tonearm completely de-coupled from it's mounting hold for seismic bass (so says the reviews).
http://www.vtaf.com/
I have to tinker a bit more with it and then do a further comparo. The deck is now clearly loaded in both time, money and thoughtfulness to the VPI belt drive - let's see if its enough to overcome the speed issues of non-regulated, belt drive.
As well, the Origin Live mounting plate to mount the Rega on the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II arrived yesterday...and the Technics is to follow here soon.
So, I'll have 3 decks/set-ups here that should tell me a lot about the nature and relationship of drive mmechanisms and tonearms as they relate to quality playback.
This all sounds rather scientific for a marketing major, eh?
John
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In another forum someone mentioned I might have inadvertently rigged the competition to the direct drive's benefit.
How so? In any event, kudos for the continued work! Hope you find time to sit back and enjoy them too. :green:
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By having an Ortofon X5-MC on it in place of my beloved Grado.
So, I now have a Grado on the VPI...with an appropriate tonearm to match (fluid damped)....along with a new 1.5lb+ outer platter and VTAF.
I love doing this tweeky crap....the tunes are playing in the background all day so I get to hear it all the time.
When I have an inspiration....I just slam the phone down on the Wal-mart or Costco buyer (ha!)....and get to it :wink:
John
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I do not know about rigging the competition. My pioneer pl-530 DD which I paid $100 for from a local retailer and my Sumiko Blue point II in my humble opinion smoked my other belt drive turntables including Nottingham Spacedeck with Shelter 501 mkII, Kuzma Stabi-s with Stogi-s and Shelter 501 MKII. I never believed a DD could compete with belt-drive. But I have finally found the missing ingredient I always felt was missing with belt drives, perfect pitch stability. I know the background noise level maybe slightly higher but man the sounds coming out of my system from a $100 turntable are amazing. Now I need to save up money and buy an SP-10 or something of that pedigree. :thumb:
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I was of the same opinion originally, too....but now I want to see how far one must go with belt drive to compete with my $100 JVC QL-F6 direct-driver.
What I'm listening to right now (the VPI) still doesn't compare. Pretty soon the excuses will run dry and the pitch stability of direct drive, for vastly lower costs, will likely run out.
However, I'm totally agnostic about the outcome.....I just want one to conclusively be better than another for sane kinda' money. Already, the better value to me, seems to be direct drive.
What you want from your TT is to mimic all the best that CD has to offer...without the downsides. Ultra-speed stable drive seems to provide the rhythmic drive to mimic the best of CD, with all the analog grandeur. The cheapest way to get that is direct drive.....one must invest in fairly massive platters and regulated speed control with belt drivers - taking the price well outside of $1000.00 with cartridge.
So, I'll soon have a Technics SL-1200 MK. II shorn with a full out modded Rega 250 on it to see if it mates the best drive mechanism with an excellent tonearm. I really think the Rega 250 is special......whether it's the one-piece end-to-end wiring or something else....my Ortofon X5-MC never sounded so full, bassy/ballsy and tuneful as with the Rega carrying it.
Good Tune-age :rock:
John
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I've now lived with the VPI for two straight weeks now.
It's level, it's got a DIY SAMA (motor is de-ccoupled from the plinth with only the belt as attachment), the VTA set, and it's on brass toes pushed downward into a thick maple block. The same downstream cables and amps have been used. It has been shorn with several cartridges.
Most recently I invested $200+ in a buddies outer record clamp so that the record is in innate contact with the mat at ALL times :o
Two tonearms have been used with that variety of cartridges has been used. An Audioquest PT-6 with Expressimo (dropped0 Heavyweight and VTAF from Pete Riggle and a super-modded, Rega RB250 with Expressimo stub, (dropped) Heavyweight and VTA, & Incognito re-wire.
I can conclusively say that.....I'm more bored with vinyl now than any time in the past two years since my return to it. Those two years, not coincidentally, were with two of the first DC servo direct drive TT's I've ever owned :(
Yes, the VPI seems a bit quieter during in-between passages.......but a yawning boredom isn't worth that.
Please again know I am completely agnostic to the drive types....I simply wanted one to prevail handily over the other. And, direct drive has...at least DC Servo, quartz locked direct drive as provided by Matsushita (Technics and JVC's parent company). Damp the platter, give it some mass, and place it on good isolation. Your gonna' get some great/exciting tunes for reasonable audiophool money.
AC synchronous drive units, combined with belt propulsion systems, make for average vinyl playback in my mind. Without tightly regulated speed control (or at least DC motor drive that de-couples the drive from fluctuations in Alternating Current line), vinyl is inferior to CD playback for me. Now, I could spend another $700-$1000 for VPI's SDS, that combines a perfect 60hz sine wave with filtration...but it's $1000 :o
For a vastly less sum in total, you can get a DC or AC Servo, quartz locked drive from several makers and be done with that issue from the start.
I've done my due diligence here on this topic...and I think the Japanese got it right almost 30 years ago.
My used Technics SL-1200 Mk. II arrives later this week. The Origin Live/Rega armboard came in last week from the UK. The two will get acquainted with one another shortly I hope :wink:
btw, I think the stock Technics arm is probably quite decent (I'll listen to it stock first before hacking at it). But the Rega with it's dropped counter weight and cartridge to rca one piece wiring is something special. If bearing friction is roughly similar...then, for me, it's these two features of the Rega that will likely set it apart from the otherwise fine Technics arm.
The less hurdles you ask puny cartridge voltages to vault over the better - all other things being equal. One length wiring, shielded, from cartridge to preamp (no step) keeps noise to a bare minimum...all the better to enjoy vinyl to its fullest. I think the bearing friction and even the body rigidity of the two arms is probably comparable....it's the 'purer' transmission line and dropping the counterweight below the tonearm geometry that sets the Rega apart in this endeavor.
Proof is in the pudding as they say....and I'll find out shortly :guitar:
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OK John,
The Vikings aren't on until 3 playing the 49ers, so that gives me 2 hours. Perhaps you remember I picked up a Technics SL-Q2 direct drive this summer. I haven't done a thing to it. I have 3 cartridges I could put into it:
Grado Gold, Sumiko Blue Point Special or the Rega Elys.
I don't think this table is par with your JVC or a Technics SL-1200MKII, as they go for el cheapo on dopebay, but the arm looks fairly decent. By the way, synchronous motors lock onto the 60 cycle sine wave. :wink:
I have also found that cheap turntable belts that are sold on dopebay do not have uniform thickness and can account for speed variation, as well as dirty belt drives and rims.
Wayner
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Wayner,
Try it.......it might be quite telling experience. Nope - I didn't realize or remember you picked one up.
As it has no arm damping, don't shoe the Grado on it. Go for the Sumiko :thumb:
If you fill it with some mass within and damp the platter....you're in for quite revelation I think, as I was (the first DD unit was the JVC QL-A2...a real cheapie, too)
The VPI, even with DIY SAMA, outer ring platter on a now 14.5 lb flywheel of a platter, super-modded Rega arm, good isolation, et al doesn't even add up to that musical integrity and impact the cheapie JVC did for me :o
Yes, I know AC synchronous motors lock on to 60hz sine wave....but a clipped 60hz sine wave is what you most often get from your mains. For $700-$1000 more (which, as I'm a nut, I might actually invest in one day to see this madness thru) it might behave like a vastly cheaper DC Servo, Quartz Lock Direct Drive in many regards. But, ohhhhh, the costliness. It aches me right down to my cheapo genetic code :cry:
I know to some this sounds like a rant...but I swear I am not biased (I like the looks of the VPI very much, incidentally). What I have found is far aside from any subjectivity...in fact I've gone over and above to stack the deck in favor of the VPI I feel. Still, no dice :roll:
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Forgive me Master, I shoe'd in the Grado.................MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally found a table that likes the Grado Gold. I've been listening to Stephane Grappelli since I've set it up and haven't heard a discouraging word...er note yet!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49771/Picture_001%7E2.jpg)
Maybe this isn't such a crappy table after all?
Here is the tone arm pillar.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49771/Picture_003%7E2.jpg)
Wayner
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I do not know about rigging the competition. My pioneer pl-530 DD which I paid $100 for from a local retailer and my Sumiko Blue point II in my humble opinion smoked my other belt drive turntables including Nottingham Spacedeck with Shelter 501 mkII, Kuzma Stabi-s with Stogi-s and Shelter 501 MKII. I never believed a DD could compete with belt-drive. But I have finally found the missing ingredient I always felt was missing with belt drives, perfect pitch stability. I know the background noise level maybe slightly higher but man the sounds coming out of my system from a $100 turntable are amazing. Now I need to save up money and buy an SP-10 or something of that pedigree. :thumb:
I live in Indiana, if we're close I'd love to do a shootout. But alas I already know the winner. Pick your color; silver or black, the results are the same!
gary
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Wayner,
I put a longhorned Grado green on a Technics SL-Q303 (very similar to your Technics) and it works great. I listened to it last night at my girlfriend's place and it was very enjoyable. If I could only get her to clean and handle her records better... I guess you can't have it all. :wink:
I'm glad to hear that you have found the Grado/Technics magic as well. :thumb:
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Not bad for a 25 year old turntable.
W
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As much as I liked my VPI MK3 and Rega300 there was always the urge to upgrade it. It was just too much $ to upgrade. You can get a new table for what they want with an existing VPI and the upgrades. There was always some speed pitch problems (piano) detected too. Yea, I know the upgrades. $1000 for the speed controller.
I don't get the pitch problems with the Basis 1400 I have. It's sounding real good.
NOW, you guys are making me want a blown out Technics 1200.
It never ends.
Enjoy listening to them.
Den
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As much as I liked my VPI MK3 and Rega300 there was always the urge to upgrade it. It was just too much $ to upgrade. You can get a new table for what they want with an existing VPI and the upgrades. There was always some speed pitch problems (piano) detected too. Yea, I know the upgrades. $1000 for the speed controller.
I don't get the pitch problems with the Basis 1400 I have. It's sounding real good.
NOW, you guys are making me want a blown out Technics 1200.
It never ends.
Enjoy listening to them.
Den
Yep, I know the drill. VPI, speed stability, and TCG consistently reporting great things about DD turntables. I'm going to have to quit reading this circle, it's making me want to spend again. :P
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Hey, cool - glad you have heard it for yourself :)
Pack some Plast-i-Clay in there and damp the platter and you'll eek out a bit more performance :wink:
It's probably not the arm that's a match - its the drive. The Grado is not well damped as most cartridges are. So, their bass (most noticeable part of the sonic spectrum to me) is flubby.
Combined an underdamped cartridge with a belt drive table that doesn't keep good time/pitch...and you get flubbier bass. Combine it with taut quartz lock direct drive (yours doesn't look to be servo system unless I missed that somewhere) you get tighter bass.
Congrats - you're hearing what I was dumbfounded to hear 2 years ago...excellence at modest cost with Direct Drive :thumb:
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As much as I liked my VPI MK3 and Rega300 there was always the urge to upgrade it. It was just too much $ to upgrade. You can get a new table for what they want with an existing VPI and the upgrades. There was always some speed pitch problems (piano) detected too. Yea, I know the upgrades. $1000 for the speed controller.
I don't get the pitch problems with the Basis 1400 I have. It's sounding real good.
NOW, you guys are making me want a blown out Technics 1200.
It never ends.
Enjoy listening to them.
Den
Yep, I know the drill. VPI, speed stability, and TCG consistently reporting great things about DD turntables. I'm going to have to quit reading this circle, it's making me want to spend again. :P
I did the direct drive thing for several years, and gave the last one away about a year ago (they don't make very good door stops). Wether they guy liked the Technics or not I don't know as I was just glad to not see it anymore. Never been fond of the way VPI sets their motors up, but it's still better than any direct drive (could be a lot better). My silver table uses a DC stepping motor to control speed, and is not mounted to anything touching the table itself. When I first set it up I check it with a vibration analizer to make sure the spindle bearing was right (I didn't believe the OEM's data sheet). Also check the motor for vibration as well. They were so quiet that there was virtually no reading. Then I check the rpm with a digital tach, and the reading I got was about a half rpm (the dots could have been off location that much). While playing music I do the "rap" test from time to time to see if anything has changed. Get very little feed back even with a hard knock. The next series of test were with different strings. I've so far tried about eight or nine combos, and always go back to a non-waxed silk based thread. With my black table things are somewhat different. It's really not built as good as the silver one even though it has a better arm on it. Took about a week for the bearing to smooth out (what do the Chinese know about bearings anyway). Have not got access to the vibration analisis equipment anymore, but already know this motor is not quite as quiet as the other one (still it's pretty quiet). The table does not dampen quite as well as the silver one, but is still very good. The platter is about 3" thick, and made of some sorta plastic stuff (formica?). Seems to dampen well, but still not as dead as the silver one. So where are we going here? The speed of the table is controlled electronicly on both tables, and it appears that both may use stepping motors to do this. The VPI uses a standard AC type of motor. Both work, but the stepping motor is better for control & stability. I've had several tables in the past that do a good job here (Technics for one), but they don't do much else right. The only table I ever had a feed back problem was a Technics SL1200, and it went out on a trade. The worst table I ever had was a JVC. You could watch the strobe go all over the place one day, and be very stable the next. But it had a much better arm and suspension than the SL1200 (arms looked the same to me but they sure didn't sound the same.) I did find that one of the best you could do to help the jap tables was to get rid of the head shell and use an aftermarket one (I used Osawas). I think now that if you had a Ginko Cloud back then you could have greatly reduced the feed back, but not enough due to the undampened platter and base. Maybe a Kenwood with the composit base would be better I don't know, but your still stuck with the paper thin platter (they did make a belt drive one with that base). Then you could ditch the funky arm for a rega or something else. By the time you got all that done you could just about have a Scout setup in your system (never liked a scout). And now we see that VPI is going with a rim drive as an option. I see two advantages, and one dissadvantage. Only time will tell but I'm not buying one.
gary
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Gary,
Read the SL1200 threads if you haven't already. But an aftermarket headshell, isoplatmat, tonearm rewire and fluid dampening are all key to getting great sound out of it. But even after all those mods you're still the same price as a Scout, which didn't really impress me. The cheapest table I auditioned that did impress me was the Project RM-10. I wish there was a mass loaded direct drive option, but theres not.
--Dave
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It's the second night with the Techincs SL-Q2. EDITORIAL: If you can get this table on sneebay for cheap, get it!!!! This is the only table in my collection of 8 that is very warm to the Grado Gold. Here is a hint at evaluating new table set ups....use a new album. Give the sucker a chance, don't let the sins of the father screw it up for the kids. When I put my seldom played Dire Straights, Brothers in Arms, side 2 into the machine......YIKES!!!!!! Here is another piece of advice....listen to Frank Van Alstine. He says to put a couple of drops of liquid silicone (1000 centistroke) on the pivots. SCHWING! I must go now, Garrison Keilor is speaking and I must shut off the FM tuner.... What a piece of crap he is.
Wayner
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Wayner - a little high-quality lubricant in the tonearm bearing joint is a major deal...I was able to find it on the junker JVC QL-A2, but still haven't found the entry point for the newer JVC QL-F6.
A drop of Tufoil on the bearing area with the junker QL-A2 was an overwhelming positive tweek. Everything just settled down....I suspect bearing rumble was greatly reduced, eliminating yet another layer of grunge.
I was able to do this with the Rega, too, recently......I don't know how much that might be factoriing into it's excellent....but it is a fantastic tonearm (zero notable noise from my phono preamp inputs with it connected via it's Incognito cable....I didn't think phono could be that clean ever before)
As for mass loading (dmckean's comment) ...if you ram 10 lbs (some less, and some have cavities that you can pour more into) of modelling clay in the innards of your table....your likely to have one weighing far in excess of 25 lbs including platter. My JVC weighs 34 lbs now......enough mass (combined with a thick maple block underneath) to reject most significant matters of feedback.
In fact, my little one can jump around with the JVC playing....but will cause the VPI (which weighs close to 50 lbs in total) to skip.
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After playing the VPI, tweeking it every which way I can think of, I put the JVC back on last night in rotation.
It really does keep time better....most noticeable on up-tempo rock and jazz....better, tighter pluck on bass, etc. It keeps my head bopping more regularly
With classical, it's not as noticeable to me, the timing/speed differences. What IS noticeable is the greater level of quiet with teh VPI tandem.....not sure if that's the inherent strength of a de-coupled drive mechanism, the tufoil in the main bearing well....or the Rega itself (better grounding and shielded cables straight thru to the phono section of my preamp. Or, some combo of it all :scratch:
The JVC, however, does seem 'etched' versus the VPI combo. I honestly don't think it's the effect of any platting 'ringing' or such...that sucker has spray damping compound and a thin layer of Plast-i-Clay on the underside AND a heavy sorbothane submat and a Herbies mat on top of that. No, it's something else.
I really am beginning to think that the critical reason why the VPI is mostly hanging in there with the JVC is the uber-modded Rega 250. It's got good enough bearings, I was able to squirt some Tufoil in there to improve things further, the dropped counterweight has great effect on bass tautness and depth, combined with the Cardas litz OFC wire and the Incognito one piece loom you have a terrific betterment to the stock arm.
I am forming the opinion that the real reason a lot of these DD decks don't have quite the resolution and ease of the best belt drive decks is the tonearm.
The Technics 1200 arrives later this week...hope I can find time to bastardize it with the Rega arm soon - I really think that tandem is gonna' be quite a stunner - as others have found in doing so.
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TCG,
I musta missed a thread about you getting a SL1200. Is the rega arm going on immediately or will you live with stock for a while and then compare? What are your plans with the Technics TT?
have fun playing around and listening!
ed
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I just gotta put in my 2 cents in for my belt drive speed regulated TT. No pitch or speed problems here. Yes it's a Pro-ject product and speed controls only adds $120.00 bucks to the equation for the Speedbox not the $1000.00 needed for the VPI stuff. Which makes speed regulated belt drive pretty affordable.
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TCG,
I musta missed a thread about you getting a SL1200. Is the rega arm going on immediately or will you live with stock for a while and then compare? What are your plans with the Technics TT?
have fun playing around and listening!
ed
Hey Ed....I'll try the Technics first with the stock arm to get a sense of it, then do some bastard-ization :roll:
ricmon - based on my time with the VPI, I think your method is money better spent. Much of the benefit of a heavy platter and even an outer ring seems wasted......without some kind of speed control that de-couples the performance of the motor speed for irregularities of AC from your mains.
A Pro-ject, a Rega or it's variants, with a good arm (Rega, etc) with tightly regulated speed control seems to be money well spent with belt drive. $120.00 + the fairly reasonable cost of the Pro-ject midline decks seems an excellent equation for value.
That's why I'm keeping the VPI around as a test bed...when and if the day comes and I want to invest in a $700-$1000 SDS speed controller for it, I should see some excellent gains in sonics.
Keep in mind...a quartz lock, DC Servo, direct drive deck machine already exists today for under $500 in the Technics....which really is, I think, held back by sub-standard arm assembly (some kind of combination of weak armtube, so-so bearings, poorly designed counterweight, so-so wiring, too many joints, or even plastic armboards that resonate - all or most are likely causes). All of these serve to hold back the performance of the DD decks, I think.
I will find out shortly and try to put my suspicions to rest for a while..... :guitar:
John
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Hi John:
I need to point out that there are legions of users here and on the Asylum, who would find the following statement utter blather:
Technics....which really is, I think, held back by sub-standard arm assembly (some kind of combination of weak armtube, so-so bearings, poorly designed counterweight
The Technics tonearm, when accompanied by the KAB damping tray and the tonearm rewire leaves little to be desired. I don't usually take issue w/ you but you are on record as being a proponent of this double gimbaled arm as well. The fact that you had a highly modded version of the Rega in your possession already seems to have curiously altered your viewpoint. I don't think its necessary to put down the one, to build up the other. No offense, but the Technics 1200 tonearm especially when damped and rewired gives up very little to other much more costly tonearms.
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After spending a few nights with the Technics armed with the Grado Gold, I have to ask myself one question. Why does the Grado sound good in this table, but not in any other that I own? I believe that it is because of the low mass tone arm. Is the technics tone arm a bad design? It surely isn't an SME, but neither was the price. I think I like it and I like it alot.
I can't complain about my VPI Hw-19jr's platter speed. I do have the seemless belt and I use talc on the belt. The VPI has the AudioQuest PT-6 tonearm on it with stock cables and that machine is still top dog at this house. Armed with the Audio Technica, the sound stage is wide and deep, the rumble and noise are the lowest ever and the bass is very stong, stonger than ever (not overpowering) with the new VTA setting.
For now, my tweeking will be in the area of perfect geometry. I just can't start altering the design until I know that every aspect of set-up is correct.
May the turntable gods be merciful to us all before we all go mad.
Wayner aa
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Hi John:
I need to point out that there are legions of users here and on the Asylum, who would find the following statement utter blather:
Technics....which really is, I think, held back by sub-standard arm assembly (some kind of combination of weak armtube, so-so bearings, poorly designed counterweight
The Technics tonearm, when accompanied by the KAB damping tray and the tonearm rewire leaves little to be desired. I don't usually take issue w/ you but you are on record as being a proponent of this double gimbaled arm as well. The fact that you had a highly modded version of the Rega in your possession already seems to have curiously altered your viewpoint. I don't think its necessary to put down the one, to build up the other. No offense, but the Technics 1200 tonearm especially when damped and rewired gives up very little to other much more costly tonearms.
Larry,
Who you kiddin' - you LOVE taking issue with me :lol: :banghead:
Hey, I was referring to the stock Technics arm....fluid damping and re-wiring probably does improve it a whole bit. But, that would be another $300 to go that route. I know fluid damping alone reduces rumble and helps tracking with most cartridges...my humble experiments over time have borne that out. It, alone, reduces tonearm chatter....something all gimballed tonearms are prone to
As I already have the Rega (and find it to be an exceptional arm - at least, updated with all it has), and the Origin Live armboard was $75 and my labor is free on a second hand 1200 I picked up for $150.00 on ebay...it's a sensible choice for me. I'm only talking about my situation - not yours or anybody elses.
If you currently enjoy what you own out there...more power to ya'. But, I just don't stop at 'good enough' in audio matters and I don't want second-hand knowledge on some matters of importance to me....I want the best combination of sonics for sane money. That's me, that's how I operate.
The Rega 250 might only be special in that it has one continuous length of wire from cartridge to rca...less hurdles for feeble phono currents to hop over until it reaches it's amplification stage. I can almost guarantee you that less joints = less noise...and less noise is good for vinyl sonics :)
Until you try one side by side with the Technics arm....what you are saying is blather. I'm in a position to find out if the stock Technics arm, once and for all, is a holdback for greater performance real soon.
I may even go real nutz and get THAT arm re-wired and add a damping pot (as it still can be used when removed from the Technics) from KAB. Then, and only then, I can compare the two very fairly. Care to send me yours instead? :thumb:
Please sit back and stop doubting my reasoning or speculate on some curious subjectivity you think I have. I am here to find the best possible combination of deck and arm for sane money (I consider that to be under $1000) and report on it here. I hold no allegiance to anybody, any maker or anything...I seek only the sonic truth of matters.
What I ultimately want for this bastard Technics-to-be is to cook up some kind of fluid damping system for the Rega (along with ridding of it of the black powder coating and fill the innards with low density polyurethane foam to reduce ringing)....and then send it in to Kevin for the outboard motor and strobe disabler 8)
John
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OH Man John you have the fever! :o It's great you doing all this comparing and modding and tweaking. :thumb: I have found playing 100-125 hours is needed to let new a cartridge and/or cables to properly settle-in. Usually there is a period around 75-85 hours where everything sounds wrong, by 100 things begin to progressively get better. Of coarse this was with Dynavector 10X5 , Karat D17Mk2 and Cardas tonearm cable, your mileage may vary.
Please document your steps to adding the silicone fluid trough to the RB250 with VTAF. I have marked my VTAF thumbwheel in thousandths thanks to the 100 edge notches and 25 thousandths rise per revolution. This making readjustment for different thickness records easy to annotate and reset. 8) Question is where to place the trough that is won't interfere with turning or reading the thumbwheel? My Systemdek IIX's armboard is somewhat restrictive in it size, shape and being below the surface (which gets us back to size), so you may have an advantage.
Thanks for some great reading.
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LT2,
You're kinda' sick yerself...and I mean that in the kindest vinyl-phool way possible :wink:
Damping troughs....hmmmm... best place for them is ahead of the cartridge/tonearm assembly (a la Townshend). A year spent with a Rock TT almost 20 years ago taught me that pretty conclusively. It wouldn't interfere with your VTA adjuster that way.
That's what I'm after ultimately....might take me a year to figure that one out, tho. But, if I do, I promise to chronicle it for ya'll :)
btw - I put the JVC DD back in rotation....and it holds my interest better than the VPI set-up. However, due to several possible factors, the VPI clearly has cleaner resolution across the sonic spectrum. Drive systems, armboard construction, tonearm differences, one piece wiring, dropped or not counterweights and cartridge differences all play into that of course....but there is no question in my mind that the VPI set-up has higher resolution...but the JVC makes more convincing sounding music.
Timing matters....and without regulated speed control I don't think truly convincing music can come from any turntable no matter how good it is otherwise :|
John
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I absolutely see NO shame in preferring the JVC. Why are people surprised at all? It must be the price, isn't it? I have the same JVC QL-F6 and other JVC models and various DD tables from other brands. I prefer this JVC over even the Technics SP-10mk2 DD classic. JVC QL series turntables, to my ears, consistently have smoother presentation and more musicality than any belt-drive I have owned. It may not have the lush robust tonal character of a good idler drive table but the speed stability and smooth texture make up for that and it's good enough for me on a long term basis. I am quite please to read about your result, TheChairGuy. Your experience mirrors mine. The QL-A2 and the F6 both use Victor's excellent coreless motor. It is to my ears, most turntables using coreless motors have this distinctive smooth sound that I am quite enamored with, only the Sony and Denon AC motor with magnetic tape head servo equals that smoothness. It's about time audiophiles start opening up their ears to the possibility that a lowly DD turntable can actually sound as good if not better than a well known brand of BD table. All drive systems can sound good and I don't think one is superior than others but there's apparent bias in the audiophile community towards BD and DD gets short shrift. Just trust your own ears. Stop the belt-drive snobbery already!
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LT2,
I would try a couple drops of 1000 centistroke liquid silicone on the horizontal bearings. I have done this to my RB300, and this thing tracks really nice.
Wayner :D
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As reported on by BFS http://boundforsound.com/
Can you get your hands on any reel to reel tape?
Try using it as a "belt" for your TT (make sure the recording side is facing out- clear packing tape can be used to bind the ends together).
The best qualities of belt drive and direct drive in one table?
Lin
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there's an even better belt if you can find one narrow enough. It has fiberglass threads in it, and is impossible to stretch. Anyway I get my belts these days JoAnne Fabrics for less than a dollar a spool, and there's zero stretch.
gary
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there's an even better belt if you can find one narrow enough. It has fiberglass threads in it, and is impossible to stretch. Anyway I get my belts these days JoAnne Fabrics for less than a dollar a spool, and there's zero stretch.
gary
Any more details?
What is it called?
Thanks,
Lin
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it's just a thin flat drive belt used on high speed grinders. They make them in different widths and lengths. Try the Dayco or Goodyear website. I know I've seen them as narrow as 1/2", and maybe .025" thick. Problem with recording tape is stretch. On a light platter it might work OK, but on the heavy weight ones I don't thing it would last long. In all my experimenting, string drives always came out on top. "O" rings for belt drives were always the very worst.
gary
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Marty says the r2r tape was pre-stretched by manufacturers to avoid problems in recording/playback. He has been using one for several months with no problems so far (of course you can easily stretch the tape with your hands, but that is much more force than it will see turning a platter).
Your solution seems to be a better way to go assuming the correct size can be found.
Thanks,
Lin
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I think a belt needs a little compliance to work best. Mylar tape may make the best coupling between TT platter and motor but I think that also leads to some motor noise being transmitted through the tape to the platter. A thread drive on the other hand has some compliance, but less than a rubber belt, and won't transfer unwanted enetgy to the platter. And it can be tightened enough to spin a weighty platter and keep it at a stable speed, while still letting centrifical force and the mass of the platter do its thing to keep speed accurate.
I know my string definitely sounds better than my old rubber belt, but unfortunately I don't have a proper spindle to test out a mylar belt, so I would be interested in hearing from someone who has actually done this experiment to chime in and tell us your resolts. Not theory, but a real practical experiment. I do know some one I trust who has tested out the string vs a direct drive wheel and says the sting and wheel both sound the same, making me believe in my string theory (apologies to any physicists here).
Thanks,
Bob
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first I must apologise for not using a quote as I've tried to post twice this afternoon without any luck on my part. It just will not allow me to do a quote.
I've found that reel to reel tape stretches no matter who tells you it won't. But there is a better tape to record on if you can find some. It's thicker and has less stretch properties. Still all I've ever heard of is in 35mm widths! Another that would interest me into at least trying it one time (now everybody tape a very deep beath here and don't laugh at me too hard!!) is silk ribbon. Just like you tie a bow for a gift with! It won't stretch, and is very supple. Now all we need to do is to figure out a way to couple the ends together without it becomming too stiff. I have an idea, but the next problem is finding an extremely flexable expoxy.
I use nothing but threads as some folks on here will tell you. Just never found anything better on two of my three tables. Thread will transfer some energy, but not a lot once you understand what you can and canot do with it. Recommend pure silk for a starter, and experiment from there.
gary