Is digital really inferior to analog?

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S Clark

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #60 on: 21 May 2017, 12:29 pm »
,
« Last Edit: 21 May 2017, 01:58 pm by S Clark »

S Clark

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #61 on: 21 May 2017, 02:05 pm »
Lets see, you've dissected every word that I have stated (and those were my opinion) and then you refer me to having mental health conditions.

Nice guy (not).
But you didn't present them as opinions.  If you present stuff that you believe as fact, understand that it will be challenged.  And no one questioned your mental health... but if watching a movie quickly makes you fatigued, you might want to have that checked out; that's not normal. 

FullRangeMan

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #62 on: 21 May 2017, 02:34 pm »
I did not know that listening digital music is like watching a movie, how people perceive reality in this world always surprises me.

JohnR

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #63 on: 21 May 2017, 02:45 pm »
Um, with audio, the ear is not presented with a discrete aka "digital" signal - it is given an analog signal, generated from a digital source via a digital-to-analog convertor.

With video, we actually are presented with discrete frames.

Wayner

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #64 on: 21 May 2017, 04:37 pm »
Um, I realize the digital signal has been "reconstructed" into an analog signal and presented to the ear via the normal chain. However, this signal is like reconstituted food. It might look like it, but it ain't it and I personally believe that the brain knows there is something wrong with what it hears and tries to convince itself that the source is naturally analog, but it is not.

I believe that there are people that can perceive digitally sourced music, much as wine tasters can pinpoint where a wine came from (regionally), what vineyard it came from and the year.

Obviously, the rest of the world has issues with the digital format, otherwise, why would there still be constant attempts at making it better. Obviously (again) there must be some "golden ears" that can still hear the graininess of a digital source, no matter how high or deep the sampling rate.

I, personally, seem to become bothered by longer periods of music listening sessions with digital as the source. I never seem to have that problem with vinyl.

jtwrace

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #65 on: 21 May 2017, 04:40 pm »
I, personally, seem to become bothered by longer periods of music listening sessions with digital as the source. I never seem to have that problem with vinyl.
Sounds like you have an issue with your digital source. 

Wind Chaser

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #66 on: 21 May 2017, 05:09 pm »
Obviously, the rest of the world has issues with the digital format, otherwise, why would there still be constant attempts at making it better.

Come on, this is utterly laughable and could just as well be restated as...  Obviously, the rest of the world has issues with the analogue format, otherwise, why would there still be constant attempts at making it better.

JohnR

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #67 on: 21 May 2017, 05:18 pm »
I realize the digital signal has been "reconstructed" into an analog signal and presented to the ear via the normal chain.

That isn't what you said before:

Quote
Digital music is in the same order. The brain has to work to put it together ...

AJinFLA

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #68 on: 21 May 2017, 05:43 pm »
I believe that there are people that can perceive digitally sourced music
People believe all sorts of things. I detailed how to truly compare "analog vs digital" earlier. How many times have you done so?
If not, please do.

much as wine tasters can pinpoint where a wine came from (regionally), what vineyard it came from and the year.
Another really bad analogy, where belief vs reality has proven very funny indeed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)
https://www.cnet.com/news/study-90-wine-tastes-better-than-the-same-wine-at-10/

How about just just don't like digital and prefer analog purely subjectively, rather than for any specious objective reason?

DarqueKnight

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #69 on: 21 May 2017, 07:12 pm »
Um, I realize the digital signal has been "reconstructed" into an analog signal and presented to the ear via the normal chain. However, this signal is like reconstituted food. It might look like it, but it ain't it and I personally believe that the brain knows there is something wrong with what it hears and tries to convince itself that the source is naturally analog, but it is not.

Early CD players, from the early to mid 1980's, used output filters that caused additional noise artifacts in the analog output. This noise was interpreted by the ear as "coldness", "harshness", and "digital glare". Well-designed modern digital players don't have these issues. Compounding the problems with early digital recordings was the fact that recording studio personnel had a steep learning curve with learning how to make good digital recordings, just as film photographers had a steep learning curve when transitioning from film to digital cameras.

Many of the most popular music titles have gone through several "digital re-masterings" to correct the recording errors made in previous digital editions.

I believe that there are people that can perceive digitally sourced music, much as wine tasters can pinpoint where a wine came from (regionally), what vineyard it came from and the year.

With wine, there are "flavor profiles" that can describe and catalog the differences in taste, aroma, appearance, and mouthfeel of a particular vintage. I am not aware of such an effort being made pertaining to digital recordings. Specifically, I don't know of any study that has shown that digital recordings have sound characteristics unique to them and distinct from analog recordings. It is certainly possible to distinguish a bad recording from a good one, if one knows what to listen for. The sound quality defects I have heard on digital recordings I have also heard on bad analog recordings.

Obviously, the rest of the world has issues with the digital format, otherwise, why would there still be constant attempts at making it better. Obviously (again) there must be some "golden ears" that can still hear the graininess of a digital source, no matter how high or deep the sampling rate.

Continuous improvement is not necessarily a sign of poor design. With analog, there are constant efforts at improving turntable materials, construction methods, and drive motors. There are continuous efforts at improving cartridge and tonearm designs.

From a commercial standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to keep improving digital formats since most audio consumers listen to music via digital media, and especially portable digital media such as cell phones and iPods.

I, personally, seem to become bothered by longer periods of music listening sessions with digital as the source. I never seem to have that problem with vinyl.

Listening fatigue is a very real phenomena. However, I would ask about the quality of your digital source (and quality of your digital media) compared to the quality of your vinyl source (and vinyl media). Are they of comparable quality and resolution?

Wayner

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #70 on: 21 May 2017, 07:42 pm »
That isn't what you said before:

Its still a saw toothed signal buried in a sine wave.

bummrush

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #71 on: 21 May 2017, 07:45 pm »
A good recordding is a good recordding

Wayner

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #72 on: 21 May 2017, 07:45 pm »
Or your analog system is so inferior, you can't recognize the differences.

Wayner

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #73 on: 21 May 2017, 07:52 pm »
BTW, none of you have brought forth any facts on this topic. You invited someone with an opposing view to the topic, then form a gang and beat the opposition up.

Perhaps John, you should change the title of this thread to "Digital is the superior" so the OP wont have anyone with opposing views. After all, if everyone is in agreement, it must be right, right?

So far, the thread has questioned my mental health, the quality of my digital system and mocked some of my (perhaps not the best of examples) of what I feel is wrong with digital.

Maybe the group could try convincing people why digital is superior without the mob mentality.

macrojack

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #74 on: 21 May 2017, 08:24 pm »
BTW, none of you have brought forth any facts on this topic. You invited someone with an opposing view to the topic, then form a gang and beat the opposition up.

Perhaps John, you should change the title of this thread to "Digital is the superior" so the OP wont have anyone with opposing views. After all, if everyone is in agreement, it must be right, right?

So far, the thread has questioned my mental health, the quality of my digital system and mocked some of my (perhaps not the best of examples) of what I feel is wrong with digital.

Maybe the group could try convincing people why digital is superior without the mob mentality.
Nobody is ganging up on you, Wayner. If you say something assertively (as you most certainly did) and a lot of people see that and respond in kind, they are not ganging up on you. They are all independently responding to something they feel is incorrect. I get that you think digital is like a fluorescent light. I also get that you are a fundamentally regressive individual. What you need to recognize is the FACT that analog sound reproduction has been obsoleted. Of course there will be Chauvinists like you and me who hang onto analog like it was our youth but the world has moved on. OTA TV and our beloved radio stations are headed briskly toward demise or revision. Everything in our lives functions at the mercy and/or assistance of ones and zeroes and how they are arranged. It all comes down to Yin and Yang. Napoleon will not be returning. Give it up.

S Clark

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #75 on: 21 May 2017, 08:59 pm »
I listen to 95% vinyl for reasons that appeal to me.  Is my digital better? Yeah it is. 

But just throwing out uninformed statements like " most people are quickly fatigued watching digital movies" or "digital audio is like digital video" is just B.S.  You state crap as fact and build false arguments around it, and people are going to call you on it.  You are incorrect in crying that you are being abused because of your position.  It's how you defend your position that is drawing disagreement.   

AJinFLA

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #76 on: 21 May 2017, 09:01 pm »
Its still a saw toothed signal buried in a sine wave.
No. The waveform output from the dac is as continuous as the output from an analog source. Only difference would be the low pass filter >22k.
Worse, you have access to an ABX comparator and could easily run the test I described earlier, post your results.
But doubtful you ever will.

BTW, none of you have brought forth any facts on this topic.
LOL

OzarkTom

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #77 on: 21 May 2017, 09:28 pm »
Or your analog system is so inferior, you can't recognize the differences.

 :scratch:

So why does FVA build dacs?

Facts?

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #78 on: 21 May 2017, 09:46 pm »
Go over to the Audioshark forum.  Many of the guys there will tell you that vinyl sounds better than digital.  I am with Wayner on this one.  Digital and Vinyl may look the same but in your mind you know they sound different and something is missing from digital.  I have an audiophile friend who is in his 30's and had not heard vinyl.  When he heard my modest analog system he immediately said he gets vinyl and loved the sound and would love to buy a TT.

However, bad analog sounds just as bad as bad digital.

Bendingwave

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Re: Is digital really inferior to analog?
« Reply #79 on: 21 May 2017, 10:58 pm »
I listen to 95% vinyl for reasons that appeal to me.  Is my digital better? Yeah it is. 

But just throwing out uninformed statements like " most people are quickly fatigued watching digital movies" or "digital audio is like digital video" is just B.S.  You state crap as fact and build false arguments around it, and people are going to call you on it.  You are incorrect in crying that you are being abused because of your position.  It's how you defend your position that is drawing disagreement.

If you claim digital is better, why do you listen to 95% vinyl?...what are these reasons that appeal to you?