Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?

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rockadanny

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #20 on: 20 Oct 2016, 07:45 pm »
Yes, they do. I was skeptical of just that moving so close, so I hung back several inches further than equilateral triangle. That is when I started this thread, not liking how they did not disappear. Last night I sucked it up and crammed my seat up forward to exactly equilateral and ... BAM! They finally did a David Copperfield.  :lol:

rockadanny

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #21 on: 20 Oct 2016, 09:51 pm »
Speakers are toed-in slightly.

Wind Chaser

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #22 on: 20 Oct 2016, 10:00 pm »
The equilateral triangle is a good starting point, but if I may suggest, try moving a little closer inside the triangle - you might be surprise. When you find that point on their axis that nails the focus, you'll know how good your system is. The more effort you put into the overall positioning of your speakers, the bigger the pay off.


JLM

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Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #23 on: 20 Oct 2016, 11:44 pm »
Near-field works best with single driver or small 2-way designs that have good coherence. 


Big Red Machine

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #24 on: 21 Oct 2016, 12:46 pm »
The Cardas dimensions were atrocious for me. I had to keep backing the seat back and the speakers farther apart. I hit a nice spot that has made me curious if I can hit an even better one, but I might measure this one for shits and grins before I tweak some more. Still a little close to me for comfort but the clarity of the layered instruments and voices is pretty nice. I still notice the speakers playing a little too much which I did not experience when I was in my 8x9x9 triangle.

JLM

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Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #25 on: 21 Oct 2016, 01:30 pm »
Changing from "far-field" to near-field does require time for experienced listeners to acclimate, but I found it well worth it.  Rather like going from in-room listening to headphones.

Years ago I invited my 8 and 9 year old nieces to sit in the chair.  Music was already playing but when each sat down their eyes popped out in amazement as the room of sound congealed into solid images.  That was with Cardas setup.  Since then I've tweaked that and the speakers.

I've found near-field reduces room effects, deepens the soundstage (if like most you're space challenged), and brings you closer to the performance.  It works best on coherent speakers that aren't "forward" sounding.  Dipoles, horns, MTM/WMTMW, and arrays need not apply and even many 3-ways would struggle.

mcgsxr

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #26 on: 21 Oct 2016, 02:03 pm »
It is an interesting topic for sure.

I have not often listened in the far field.

I did have a room back in the early to mid 90's in university where I could listen from about 15 feet away in a 20x25 room.

In my current room (similar size) I listen in the nearfield as the space shares my pool table.  I cannot back my chair up more than 11 feet from my speakers (6 feet apart) before I literally hit the table.  I typically listen 6-8 feet from the speakers and move the listening chair if it interferes with pool playing at that time.

Well worth experimenting in your room though, other than the hassle and sweat equity it is free!

bluemike

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #27 on: 21 Oct 2016, 03:01 pm »
Changing from "far-field" to near-field does require time for experienced listeners to acclimate, but I found it well worth it.  Rather like going from in-room listening to headphones.

Years ago I invited my 8 and 9 year old nieces to sit in the chair.  Music was already playing but when each sat down their eyes popped out in amazement as the room of sound congealed into solid images.  That was with Cardas setup.  Since then I've tweaked that and the speakers.

I've found near-field reduces room effects, deepens the soundstage (if like most you're space challenged), and brings you closer to the performance.  It works best on coherent speakers that aren't "forward" sounding.  Dipoles, horns, MTM/WMTMW, and arrays need not apply and even many 3-ways would struggle.
+1 i enjoy my Ridge Street Sason's immensely in a near field setup ..the music just snaps into place when done right and your ancillary equipment is up to snuff  :thumb:

Wind Chaser

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #28 on: 21 Oct 2016, 03:23 pm »
I've found near-field reduces room effects, deepens the soundstage (if like most you're space challenged), and brings you closer to the performance.

As you said, it mitigates the effect of the room and gives a much better seat at the event. Going from far field to near field is like upgrading your tickets to the best seats at a live performance. :thumb:

THROWBACK

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Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #29 on: 21 Oct 2016, 03:30 pm »
Gee, JLM, I have dipoles (GR Research LS-9s) and they sound very coherent to me. Maybe there are dipoles and dipoles?

Big Red Machine

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #30 on: 21 Oct 2016, 04:03 pm »
What was annoying is the speakers were so close they were right into my ears versus stepping back some and having them disappear (this according to the Cardas formulas). So you need to experiment for sure. I have very good imaging and soundstage depth at 8x9x9 triangle. We'll see where I end up as I keep adjusting. But the soundstage was not deeper and it was narrower at the 82 inch equilateral triangle.

Wind Chaser

Re: Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?
« Reply #31 on: 21 Oct 2016, 04:53 pm »
I have very good imaging and soundstage depth at 8x9x9 triangle. We'll see where I end up as I keep adjusting. But the soundstage was not deeper and it was narrower at the 82 inch equilateral triangle.

It took over two months of experimentation to get my speakers where they are now, which is spread 9' apart with the hot seat 8' back. In this configuration the speakers are 4' off the front wall and 5' off side walls. Extra effort was required to get them toed in to the optimum point of axis. My soundstage is very deep and very wide, which is due in large part to the phenomenal Coincident Dynamo 34SE MKII.  :green: