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Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Red Wine Audio => Topic started by: Vinnie R. on 20 Feb 2011, 10:43 pm

Title: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 20 Feb 2011, 10:43 pm
All,

This thread is for all LFP-V Edition customers to share their experiences tube rolling with the LFP-V Tube Stage board:

http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/lfpv-edition

The LFP-V Tube Stage board is now used in all our products (except for the Black Lightning LFP battery power supplies) - so no matter if it is a Sig 30.2, 70.2, Isabellina, HPA, Ginevra, etc. - this will be the tread to post our findings.

This family of tube is used in many products, but I would like to keep this thread focused on experiences with tubes used in the LFP-V Edition products.  The same tube can sound quite different in different products (based on many variables such as bias current, plate voltage, other circuit parameters).

If you can, please mention the rest of your gear from source to speakers (including cables) - as tube rolling is a "synergy thing" with your entire system. 

Also mention the tube in as much detail as possible (country of manufacture, production year, etc.).

I'll be posting my findings soon enough - I've been playing with many in all RWA components  8)

Here are some tubes to add to the list (in no particular order, and I can edit this post and add to the list, and even index it to the post in this thread where there is feedback for the tube of interest  :hyper:):

Here are some of the popular ones to start the list:

- Amperex 6922 Pinch Waist
- Amperex 7308s
- Genalex Gold Lion Cryoset 6922
- Miniwatt Dario 7308
- Mullard 6922 / 7308
- Siemens 7308
- Siemens CCa's
- Telefunken 6922 / 7DJ8
- Tungsram 6922 / 7DJ8
- Valvo 7308

Thanks for all your feedback - this will be a great resource for Red Wine Audio LFP-V customers looking to get into tube rolling.  NOTE - it can be addictive!  :smoke:  :green:

Vinnie

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: pachku on 21 Feb 2011, 08:46 pm
As everybody tells me that the Isabellina reacts similarly to different tubes as the Isabella, my input here :D  After about 150 hours of burn-in, changed the stock JJ for a 1959 Valvo CCa - absolutely incredible. Bigger stage, clearer, brighter, more bass, better definition... improvement in every aspect  :green:  If those tubes wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, a definite recommendation... 

Have a Mazda 7308 ready for testing, too, so we'll so which one wins  :green:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: lovehertz on 26 Feb 2011, 09:42 pm
Since upgrading from my 30.2i in October 2010, I have been enjoying my LFP-V 70.2's with the stock JJs.  Like some of you, after a while I become antsy and wonder what I am missing out on by not trying other tubes.  Has anyone found a particular tube for the 70.2's that provdes outstanding 3-dimensionality (especially with regards to soundfield depth) while maintaining top notch tonality and slam?

Thanks.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: barbes on 27 Feb 2011, 05:49 pm
Hello, everybody.  I'm a long-time reader and new member.  I have both a Signature 30 LFP-V and an Isabellina LFP-V, playing through Omega Super 5 XRS speakers, with an Omega subwoofer.  I got one of the earlier LFP-V Signatures, I think, and added the Isabellina some time later.  The Isabellina was a massive improvement over my previous DAC, an Arcam rDAC with a custom power supply - much fuller, more natural, and less/not at all "digital" sounding.

At Vinnie's suggestion, I've replaced, at separate times, the stock tube in each unit with an Amperex 7308 vintage gold pin.  Each change was completely for the better: more natural sounding, more detail, better separation, better extension on both ends, better soundstaging and imaging, more air.  I haven't seen any drawbacks at all.


The change in the amp took a while to really show itself - the new tube sounded better right away, but not a lot, and then came in over time.  The change in the Isabellina, though, was instant and massive: I was really shocked.  It continued to improve over time, too.

I can't compare any of this to other tube upgrades, but I can say that these are terrific.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Paganini Alfredo on 3 Mar 2011, 09:28 pm
Hello all

I put in an order the other day for the Isabellina to compliment my LCD's (hope you received my order Vinnie, really looking forward to it showing up on my doorstep :D).

Anyhoo, lead time according to Vinnie is 3-4 weeks so I have some time to consider purchasing some replacement tube(s). Speaking of that, the Isabellina DOES only take one tube right? I'm thinking of getting a couple of tubes around the 45$'ish range and seeing what they have to offer and what I can then look for in perhaps a better tube. I was thinking Amperex, Sylvania or Genalex-Gold Lion. I'll probably be perfectly happy with those but who knows, my pockets just may develop holes...

I'm currently using a Headroom Ultra Desktop Amp for my LCDs and while the sound is great, I really have nothing to compare it to until I plugged in a cheap turntable and really liked the sound coming from it even though it was lowfi. So I went and searched for something more "analog" and the RW seems a good alternative.

Do you guys have any experience with HR's amps and feel that the upsampling DAC will be an improvement? I'm looking for a more musical, cohesive, relaxing type of sound presentation I guess. I hate it when people throw around terms to describe sound but sometime that's all we can manage!

Thanks
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 6 Mar 2011, 09:45 pm
Hi Guys,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum!  Thanks for your posts.

Hi pachku,

Glad you are enjoying the Valvo Cca!  Never heard the Mazda 7308.  Please keep us posted!


Hi lovehertz,

I'd look into the Amperex 7308s.  Definitely more spacious and richer tone than the JJ. 


Hi barbes,

Thanks for your feedback!  Sounds like you have a really sweet sounding combo in place.


Hi Paganini Alfredo,

Yes, I received your order and you are doing to love the Isabellina HPA with your LCD-2s!  8)
Yes, all the LFP-V Edition products (except for the Isabella preamplifier) use one tube.
Your idea on trying a few different tubes is a great way to start - it'll get you into tube rolling without spending a fortune, and sometimes you find yourself preferring a tube that is less expensive or exotic than another.  There is no best tube - it is all about what sounds best to you.

Quote
I'm looking for a more musical, cohesive, relaxing type of sound presentation I guess.

The Isabellina HPA LFP-V is what you are looking for - you'll know it with the first song you play.  :singing:

Looking forward to hearing your impressions - and I'll let you know when it ships.

All the best,

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Alwayswantmore on 11 Mar 2011, 03:20 am
Hi Paganini,

Off topic, but to your Q. I have Isabellina HPA LFP and Sig 30.2 LFP. I took one round with hi-rez, and purchased a Wavelength Cosecant V3 Price similar to Isbellina HPA. No doubt it was good, but there were tradeoffs with Redbook, so when LFPs came out I sold the Cosecant. Don't miss it.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Paganini Alfredo on 12 Mar 2011, 01:25 pm
Huh... I hadn't even considered that unit.

I ordered an Amperex gold pin 7308 to start off my tube rolling, the supplier says it's from the year 1964. Pretty cool!

At any rate my amp might be done next week, can't wait to compare it to my Ultra Desktop  :D
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 16 Mar 2011, 01:46 pm
Here is another one to add to the list. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92526.0

I'll need to order one and see what it can do  8)

Anyone try it?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: sporter on 19 Mar 2011, 05:59 am

Miniwatt Dario's are 'da bomb'.   :-)   

At least for my ears, good balance of warmth and detail.   I have them in all of my LFP's -- Isabella and 70.2's...

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: pachku on 20 Mar 2011, 08:55 pm
Miniwatt would very probably be a Phillips tube, I'm running a quad of those EL34 in my BHSE, manufactured by Mullard for Phillips. I have a 1964 Mazda 7308 (Phillips' Brussels factory) for my Isabellina which is very, very nice indeed. But having more than enough warmth in my LCD-2, I prefer my 1959 Valvo CCa for those headphones. The Mazda sounds better with the HD800 or the HD650, though.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Paganini Alfredo on 27 Mar 2011, 12:29 am
Here is another one to add to the list. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92526.0

I'll need to order one and see what it can do  8)

Anyone try it?
Ouch that thing's expensive. And why are they saying that cause it's rated at 10,000 hrs it's a good buy? I could buy several for that and have like 20,000+ hrs!  :flame:

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: vincent28 on 31 Mar 2011, 04:56 pm
bros, i was changing my ic on red wine LFP preamp onto power amp when i heard a loud sound on speakers. The LFP-V preamp is off but power amp is on.

could i have damaged the tubes? cos after dat, i been hearing hum on my system as and when i switch on my modem. Could the tube in LFP-V be picking up the RF or emi? how do u know if the tube is having issue? sorry for coming into this thread. pls advise
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 31 Mar 2011, 09:36 pm
Hi vincent28,

Please email me: vinnie@redwineaudio.com

We'll figure this out and get it resolved...

Vinnie
Title: TUBES
Post by: Vinnie R. on 31 Mar 2011, 09:54 pm
All,

I'll be doing some serious listening to the various tubes I have in my collection and will be posting about my findings, starting with this post.  These are just my findings and please do not take them
as a formal review.  I also hope to hear the opinion of others using these tubes (and others I have not tried) in their LFP-V Edition Red Wine Audio component(s).  Thank you for your posts!

System: Macbook connected to Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition dac/headphone amp (via USB) to Audez'e LCD-2 headphones.  I decided I wanted to use only one RWA LFP-V component and headphones (to eliminate room variables and the other components) for doing these tube evaluations.  So the Isabellina HPA LFP-V was the best choice, and the LCD-2s are definitely one the very best headphones I've listened to on the HPA...

Lets start with the EAT Cool Valve ECC88:

It does fit in the LFP-V Edition tube stage board (but cannot be used in the Isabella preamp because the diameter is too large due to the heatsink).

The Sound

- Very tight and punchy bass, with plenty of weight
- Excellent dynamics.  Very lively and exciting!
- A more forward midrange
- A clean top end (not bright or edgy, but not what I would call "sweet").  Plenty of detail.

Other Comments

Not what I would call a seductive sound, if that is what you are looking for.  But if
you need a very dynamic and clear sound, without the grain, this is a great choice. 
Not quite what I would call  "neutral" as the mid-range is a little forward and the the bass has a little extra weight - but I can see this working well where the listener is looking for more "boogie factor" to the sound!  :hyper:

More to follow....
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: low.pfile on 31 Mar 2011, 10:40 pm
@Vinnie,

this EAT Cool Valve?
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73404
it's $225US

a favor.... Roller's let us (less familiar with valves) know the price/value, vintage or freshly minted. thank ya.

I can't wait for until monday when USPS hands off my LFP-V!

-Ed
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 1 Apr 2011, 01:11 am
Hi Ed,

Yes - that's the one, and good suggestions.  Will do!

This is going to be a fun thread!  8)

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 3 Apr 2011, 01:45 am
Amperex 7308 (1960's vintage, Made in USA, gold pins)

The Sound

- Full sounding bass
- Big soundstage
- Sweet, fleshed-out midrange
- Rich tone
- Ever so slightly relaxed in the top-end.

Other Comments

This is a more musical sounding tube that is three-dimensional and offers nice tone
and sweet top end.  It does trade-in some dynamics for a more seductive presentation.
Its a sweet sounding tube for sure.  I like it a lot!  :singing:

Vinnie

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: rediazvh on 3 Apr 2011, 09:16 am
hi vinnie

is this Amperex is what u mentioned?

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/tubes/6922/amp-7308.html

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 3 Apr 2011, 12:31 pm
Hi Rediazvh,

Yes, that's it!  IMHO, it's a very good value.  As I will post soon, there are other tubes that I think are even better (miniwatt dario, Amperex 6922 pinched waist), but they are even more rare and more expensive...

So what have you all been using?  Impressions?

Thanks!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Paganini Alfredo on 3 Apr 2011, 09:25 pm
I've got several tubes to pick and choose from now...

I've mainly been using the above mentioned Amprerex 7308 with gold pins for the majority of the time I've been burning in/listening the past two weeks. I think my Isabellina is burned in now. My other tubes are:

Amperex 6DJ8 "early white label"
Amperex 6DJ8 "orange globe label"
Amperex 6DJ8 "bugle boy label"

I plopped in the bugle boy tube a couple of days ago and then noticed what I thought as irritating high frequencies (from the Audeze LCD-2 no less!!!). Either the unit is still undergoing changes or my hearing is a bit off cause I think I'm having a bit of congestion and it's affecting my hearing. Maybe both. I swapped the Amperex 7308 back in and at first I thought it sound okay but nope, it's still sibilant at times.

Haven't had too much opportunity to compare/contrast with the other two tubes but I have plenty of comparisons for sure.

Side note; I purchased the Amperex tubes, with the gold pinned 7308 being an exception, as "bargain" deals at tctubes.com. I tested them out when I got them and they sound fine and work, but these tubes in like new condition run around 50-60$ easy. What's the difference? I read on their site that they don't test as well and wouldn't be considered for sale back in the day.

Just a thought if y'all would like some nice tubes for cheap.  :guitar:

Edit; Question for Vinny that's not related to tube rolling. How much juice are the LCD-2's getting with the Isabellina?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 5 Apr 2011, 01:15 pm

I plopped in the bugle boy tube a couple of days ago and then noticed what I thought as irritating high frequencies (from the Audeze LCD-2 no less!!!). Either the unit is still undergoing changes or my hearing is a bit off cause I think I'm having a bit of congestion and it's affecting my hearing. Maybe both. I swapped the Amperex 7308 back in and at first I thought it sound okay but nope, it's still sibilant at times.


Hi P.A.,

I never liked the Bugle Boys for that reason - the highs bothered me. 

Amperex 7308s always seemed to do a nice job with the top-end. 

Note - when I've had cold virues that led to ear congestion, I learned to just fight it off before doing critical listening because it would throw off my judgment  :nono:   It's odd because you would think that having congestion would dull high frequencies, but for me, they irritated me because the mid-range (vocals - even when listening to people talk to me) were dulled, so when listening, everything was all out of balance.    So go easy and fight off your ear congestion before making critical evaluation of any tubes, components, etc.  :idea:

Quote
Edit; Question for Vinny that's not related to tube rolling. How much juice are the LCD-2's getting with the Isabellina?

They are getting a healthy amount of clean power (but under 1W per channel). 

All the best,

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 7 Apr 2011, 03:14 pm

Miniwatt Dario 7308/E188CC (1960s, Made in France, gold pins, around $150 per tube)

The Sound

- Solid, full-sounding bass
- Fantastic soundstage width and depth
- Fleshed-out midrange
- Rich tone, "meat-on-the-bones" and juicy!
- Sweet and airy top-end

Other Comments


A very musical sounding tube that is spacious, tonally rich, airy, and well-balanced from
top to bottom.  One of my favorites for use with the LFP-V Tube Stage.  It'll have you sinking
your teeth into the music and keep you listening  :drool: :drool: :drool:

Très addictif - vive le Miniwatt Dario!

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: gjgman on 7 Apr 2011, 03:56 pm
Vinnie:
Is this the tube?   http://www.upscaleaudio.com/tubes/6922/dario-7308.html
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 8 Apr 2011, 12:08 am
Vinnie:
Is this the tube?   http://www.upscaleaudio.com/tubes/6922/dario-7308.html

Hi gjgman,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum.  Yes - that's the one. 

"Driver grade" is fine for the LFP-V tube buffer.

Next up - the Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist...  8)  :notworthy:

I hope you all get a chance to do some tube rolling and post your findings as well.  In the meantime, I have plenty more tubes to roll and post about!  :hyper:

Cheers!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: gjgman on 8 Apr 2011, 03:54 pm

quote author=Vinnie R. link=topic=91642.msg929656#msg929656 date=1302221326]
Hi gjgman,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum.  Yes - that's the one. 

"Driver grade" is fine for the LFP-V tube buffer.

Next up - the Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist...  8)  :notworthy:

I hope you all get a chance to do some tube rolling and post your findings as well.  In the meantime, I have plenty more tubes to roll and post about!  :hyper:

Cheers!

Vinnie
[/quote]


Looking forward to your thoughts on that tube Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: gjgman on 9 Apr 2011, 12:56 pm
With the Isabellina "Driver Grade" is okay for tubes? No need for the Gold?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 12 Apr 2011, 01:50 pm
With the Isabellina "Driver Grade" is okay for tubes? No need for the Gold?

With any of tube LFP-V Edition Tube boards (single tube), the "driver grade" is fine  8)
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 12 Apr 2011, 02:02 pm
Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist (made in holland (1950's?), around $250/tube)

The Sound

- Solid, full-sounding bass
- Fantastic soundstage width and depth - big and 3D. 
- Fleshed-out midrange
- Rich tone, "meat-on-the-bones" and juicy.  And just the right amount of it, IMO!
- Sweet and airy top-end, beautifully detailed... delicate

Other Comments


Like the MiniWatt Dario, this is easily one of my favorite tubes with the LFP-V Tube Stage. 
The level of musicality, spaciousness, tonality, and seductiveness is grand!
Well-balanced from top to bottom - it may hook you like a fish  8)

Also like the MiniWatt Darios, I wish these were easier to find and less expensive, but they are
both worth every penny to me!

So - who has the 1950's Siemens CCas to post about?  :wink:  They are also very highly
sought after, and have a different presentation to the last two tubes that I commented on.



Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: nshawks on 14 Apr 2011, 10:04 am
I ordered a Matsushita 7DJ8 to try as well as one of the Miniwatt Dario's for my 30.2 LFP-V.  I'll let you know how they compare to the stock JJ tube.  I have a set of Tungsram 6922's already that I was using in my cdp for a while, but haven't tried one in the amp yet.  I never liked them that much in the cdp, but I suppose I shouldn't assume that I'd have the same opinion in the amp.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Nocturne79 on 16 Apr 2011, 01:08 am
Hello everyone,  I just got a Miniwatt France 7308 tube for my Isabellina LFP-V HPA!  This tube is great!  The soundstage IMO got wider and the the bass become better and more focused, then my Mullard CV2492 I was using before.  Sorry i am really bad at describing things.
  Anyway just wanted to say that i really enjoy this new tube and hope some day to get an Amperex pinch waist.  Thanks Vinnie for posting input on the tubes, its a great resource for me since I have no real experience with tubes.  Have a wonderful day everyone

 :P
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 20 Apr 2011, 08:07 pm
Hello everyone,  I just got a Miniwatt France 7308 tube for my Isabellina LFP-V HPA!  This tube is great!  The soundstage IMO got wider and the the bass become better and more focused, then my Mullard CV2492 I was using before.  Sorry i am really bad at describing things.
  Anyway just wanted to say that i really enjoy this new tube and hope some day to get an Amperex pinch waist.  Thanks Vinnie for posting input on the tubes, its a great resource for me since I have no real experience with tubes.  Have a wonderful day everyone

 :P

Hi Nocturne79,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum!  The MiniWatt Dario is great, indeed!  My pleasure posting my experience with the tubes I've been rolling, and thank you for your post!

More to come...

Happy Listening,

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 29 Apr 2011, 12:55 am
Genalex Gold Lion (Cryoset Certified) E88CC/6922 - available from www.cryoset.com

The Sound

- Very tight and punchy bass, with plenty of weight
- Very lively and exciting!
- A more forward midrange
- A clean top end (not bright or edgy, but not what I would call "sweet").  Plenty of detail.

Other Comments

This tube has very similar characteristics to the EAT Cool Valve I mentioned earlier, but at a more attractive price!  8)  Great for those who want a very dynamic and clear sound, without the grain.

Comes in matched cyro'd pairs for < $100 - so this is what I call a good value!
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 15 May 2011, 03:42 pm
While it CANNOT currently be used in the LFP-V Edition products, does anyone have
experience with the 6H30 (Super Tube) family of tubes compared to the 6922 family? 

They are taller and draw twice the heater current... with modification to the LFP-V Tube Stage (and a hole on the cover to allow this tube to fit), I know it can work.  In time, I'd like to see what it can do  :idea:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Nels Ferre on 15 May 2011, 05:06 pm
While it CANNOT currently be used in the LFP-V Edition products, does anyone have
experience with the 6H30 (Super Tube) family of tubes compared to the 6922 family? 

They are taller and draw twice the heater current... with modification to the LFP-V Tube Stage (and a hole on the cover to allow this tube to fit), I know it can work.  In time, I'd like to see what it can do  :idea:

I have limited experience with the 6H30 in a preamp. The Electro Harmonics 6H30 is fine, but the Russian Mil Spec NOS 6H30DR had far better bass extension, at least in that circuit. The DR also costs 3X more than the new production EH 6H30.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 20 May 2011, 04:40 am
Thanks, Nels.  So how much for the NOS 6H30DR, and how rare are they?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 2 Jun 2011, 01:31 pm
Another one that caught my eye:

The 8223 (E288CC).  They use more heater current (approx. 0.475A vs. 0.3A), so they cannot be dropped into the Isabella or the LFP-Vs w/o modification - but they are "supposed" to be very rare and even higher quality of the 7308 (E188CC). 

On my free time, I'll see if I can snag a pair and see what I can do with them, and report my findings.

Vinnie
Title: Re: TUBES
Post by: barbes on 21 Jun 2011, 11:21 pm
All,

I'll be doing some serious listening to the various tubes I have in my collection and will be posting about my findings, starting with this post.  These are just my findings and please do not take them
as a formal review.  I also hope to hear the opinion of others using these tubes (and others I have not tried) in their LFP-V Edition Red Wine Audio component(s).  Thank you for your posts!

System: Macbook connected to Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition dac/headphone amp (via USB) to Audez'e LCD-2 headphones.  I decided I wanted to use only one RWA LFP-V component and headphones (to eliminate room variables and the other components) for doing these tube evaluations.  So the Isabellina HPA LFP-V was the best choice, and the LCD-2s are definitely one the very best headphones I've listened to on the HPA...

Lets start with the EAT Cool Valve ECC88:

It does fit in the LFP-V Edition tube stage board (but cannot be used in the Isabella preamp because the diameter is too large due to the heatsink).

The Sound

- Very tight and punchy bass, with plenty of weight
- Excellent dynamics.  Very lively and exciting!
- A more forward midrange
- A clean top end (not bright or edgy, but not what I would call "sweet").  Plenty of detail.

Other Comments

Not what I would call a seductive sound, if that is what you are looking for.  But if
you need a very dynamic and clear sound, without the grain, this is a great choice. 
Not quite what I would call  "neutral" as the mid-range is a little forward and the the bass has a little extra weight - but I can see this working well where the listener is looking for more "boogie factor" to the sound!  :hyper:

More to follow....

Based on this review and some others I’ve read of this tube, I’ve had it in my Isabellina for over 100 hours now.  I had Amperex 7308s in both it and my Signature (see earlier post in this thread) and really like them, but the system had started sounding overly lush to me – almost syrupy sometimes and not so great for harder-edged music.  I LOVE this tube.  The sweet overlay is gone and detail and imaging is even better.  Vinnie’s right about the slight bass emphasis, but it doesn’t sound artificial to me, just solid.  I’m very happy with it.

(This is with my Omega speakers, primarily – I don’t use the headphone amp enough to rate fine differences.  The Signature still has the Amperex.)
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: adamaley on 17 Jul 2011, 07:17 am
Any more observations/suggestions guys? Paganini Alfredo, fancy meeting you here  :D
So far, it seems like the Miniwatt Darios are the best value option. Are there any other tubes in the 100-200 dollar range that should be considered? I'm looking to improve upon all aspects of the frequency spectrum without adding grain or forwardness to the sound. The Darios look like they fit the bill. Any thoughts? Vinnie, thanks for a great amp.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Profbratsch on 17 Jul 2011, 06:41 pm

Are there any other tubes in the 100-200 dollar range that should be considered? I'm looking to improve upon all aspects of the frequency spectrum without adding grain or forwardness to the sound.

There are two possibilities that are currently listed on Audiogon, both by the same seller.  If I were in need of tubes I would immediately purchase the first set I am listing here, although the asking price exceeds the top end of your budget by $39.  That is more than offset by the life of the tube.  In any event here is what I came up with:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1315511909 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1315511909)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1313936981 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1313936981)

Hope this is helpful...
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: adamaley on 18 Jul 2011, 04:31 am
Thanks for the response, Profbratsch. I was wondering if the prices listed are for a pair or just one tube. Do you have experience with either one of them? From my time with the Isabella, I knew the Siemens to be considered the ultimate tube pairing.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: jjoonnaass on 18 Jul 2011, 10:50 am
[Edited 24 July 2011]
I'll leave the post below as is, but after a few more days worth of break in the sound of my system has changed quite a bit. I also found that my three year old daughter had managed to change the cross over frequency of my sub by 2Hz...
Tube rankings will be revised in an upcoming post but my findings at this point are actually quite different from what I reported earlier!
[/end edit]

I was going to wait with reporting my tube rolling experience with a Signature 30.2 LFP-V but since you asked I'll make a (very) short summary of my findings so far. I wanted to wait until the amp was fully broken in (which I'm not sure that it is yet...) but with that disclaimer what I've found is this:

I've tried the following tubes:
Amperex e188cc (heerlen) 1964(?)
Siemens e88cc (late 70's/early 80's)
Siemens e188cc (late 70's/early 80's)
Mullard e88cc (Mitcham) "wrinkle glass" 1959
Telefunken e88cc (Ulm) 1976

In my system the tube that stands head and shoulders above the rest is the Telefunken.

In my system the Amperex has slow and bloated bass losing the excellent PRAT that I always enjoyed with the pre LFP-V edition 30.2. The Amperex is also too hot on top (sounds like the glare reported earlier in this thread) making some albums unlistenable (I prefer a tube where I can enjoy as much of my record collection as possible).

The Siemens tubes are similar but with better (tighter) bass. Still with too much high end energy for my liking. Not sure which of the two I prefer but both are quite far behind the Telefunken.

The Mullard sounds odd; almost as if there's some phase shifting going on in the lower registers. Highs are rolled off - too much so for my liking. PRAT is not a forte of this tube...

The Telefunken then. The clear winner to my ears. With this tube in place the amp still sounds like the old 30.2 I loved but better in all aspects. Much better definition, better PRAT, more precise and larger sound stage. Exactly what I hoped for when I sent the amp for an upgrade and everything that Vinnie promised.

I'll write a more comprehensive review when things are properly broken in and I'll contrast the tubes I've tried against the stock JJ. I've also got a few more tubes lying around that I want to try out.

So, in summary, with the Telefunken I'm extremely happy with the upgrade. With any of the other tubes I actually preferred the old 30.2 in my system. Just goes to show that it's all about system synergy I suppose...
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: adamaley on 21 Jul 2011, 01:23 am
Thanks for the extensive list. I look forward to your final impressions on these. What else, if I may ask, makes up the rest of your system?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: adamaley on 22 Jul 2011, 12:38 am
Vinnie,
I am on the verge of pulling the trigger on either one of the Miniwatt Darios or Amperex pinched waist tubes. From your description here on this thread, these two tubes share a lot of the same characteristics. They are both similar in price, so I'd like to know which one you would pick, given the choice. I eternally trust your ears.

Thanks
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 22 Jul 2011, 02:29 pm
Vinnie,
I am on the verge of pulling the trigger on either one of the Miniwatt Darios or Amperex pinched waist tubes. From your description here on this thread, these two tubes share a lot of the same characteristics. They are both similar in price, so I'd like to know which one you would pick, given the choice. I eternally trust your ears.

Thanks

Hi Adamaley,

Amperex Pinched Waist would be my first choice  8)

All,

Thank you for posting all your tube rolling experiences.

Hi jjoonnaass,

Is this the Telefunken you are using this one?
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Telefunken-E88CC-%7B47%7D-6922.html

I'm surprised you found the Amperex to be hot up top.  I find the Bugle Boys to be like this, but haven't heard others like this. 

Hi barbes,

If you like dynamics, bass punch and grunt, and detail - that EAT CoolValve is really good.  It is not lush, but can be great for balancing out your system.


Again, that is whats great about tube rolling - it allows you to fine tune the sound to your other components, cables, speakers, room, and taste in sound in general.

Only one tube is needed for an LFP-V Edition component, and finding that perfect tube is worth every penny IMHO.  Our tube stage is very gentile on the tubes (soft start, 45-second warm up before applying the grid voltage, fed via clean LiFePO4 battery, etc.) - so you can expect it to last a very long time.

Happy listening, always,

Vinnie
 




Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: adamaley on 23 Jul 2011, 07:45 am
Hi Vinnie,
I guessed I lucked out. Yesterday I pulled the trigger on the Amperex pinched waist that profbratsch linked me to on audiogon. I was impatient and didn't want to risk missing out on that particular sale. I'm glad I picked the one you would prefer. It should be here next week and I will do well to post my impressions.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Profbratsch on 23 Jul 2011, 04:30 pm
adamaley,

Congratulations on your purchase!

If you have a little extra cash and want to take the Amperex tubes to another level you might consider sending them to Ridge Street Audio Design and have them croyed.  I think they still offer the service.  When I had my tubes done the fee was more than reasonable. :thumb:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: adamaley on 23 Jul 2011, 04:35 pm
Thanks for the advice. I'll look into it.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 27 Jul 2011, 03:43 pm
Hi Vinnie,
I guessed I lucked out. Yesterday I pulled the trigger on the Amperex pinched waist that profbratsch linked me to on audiogon. I was impatient and didn't want to risk missing out on that particular sale. I'm glad I picked the one you would prefer. It should be here next week and I will do well to post my impressions.

Hi Adamaley,

How are they sounding?  8)

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: adamaley on 29 Jul 2011, 03:33 am
What can I say, Vinnie? The JJs are good, but these make muuuuuuuuuusic. Jazz is immaculate. One thing I noticed off the bat was how much easier it was to decipher sounds that were positioned behind others in the soundstage. Especially behind the voice in the center foreground. Like you pointed out Vinnie, the soundstage widened significantly and there is added body, guts, skin, breath and air to instruments. So much so that it gets scary at times. I'm officially in love with the Isabellina-LCD-2 combo. I'm planning on recabling my LCD-2s and then, who knows, perhaps balanced....hmmmmm. Great job, Vinnie. I'm as in love with this as I was with the Isabellina-Isabella-30.2 (all SLA combo). I can imagine the LFP-V technology is what pushes the Isabellina HPA to this level. I'm afraid to think about what it will do to an Isabella.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Travisg on 17 Aug 2011, 04:46 pm
I have a pinch waist Amperex Holland 6922 if anyone is interested.
Travisontech@gmail.com
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 17 Aug 2011, 08:30 pm
All,

I just bought a pair of 6GM8 (ECC86) MiniWatt Darios from a seller on Audiogon.  I will post my impressions on them soon, and how they compare to the E188CC (7308) MiniWatt Darios I posted about earlier in this thread.

Hi Travis,

Email me  8)

Best regards,

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Travisg on 18 Aug 2011, 12:54 pm
Pinched waist is now sold.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: David C. on 1 Oct 2011, 11:19 pm
Hi Vinnie,

Right now I have just one tubed component in my system, which consists of an LFP-V Isabellina feeding either a Sig 30.2 amp, or a pair of Sig 70.2s.

I’ve been doing a bit of tube rolling, and I find that I very much prefer the sweet sound of the Miniwatt Dario 7308/E188CC to the Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 or the stock JJ tube.

I’ve ordered a Sig 15 to replace the Sig 30.2, so soon I’ll have two tubed components in the chain. Would it be a good idea to roll another Miniwatt Dario into the Sig 15, or would that be too much of a good thing? Would I end up with an overly-sweet, flabby sound?

David
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: CSI on 4 Oct 2011, 03:23 am
Fascinating question. I'm very interested in Vinnie's answer. I, too have an Isabellina and started my tube rolling with the Genelex Gold Lion. I found it slightly superior to the stock JJ but not completely satisfying. Then I tried the Dario and stopped cold. This was clearly the answer. Later this week I will take delivery of my Signature 30.2 LFP-V. My inclination is to roll in another Dario - after lots of break in time of course - and never look back. Something tells me that it will just be more of a good thing and not too much, but I'll wait for word from Vinnie.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 4 Oct 2011, 11:15 pm
Hey guys,

Thanks for your posts.

I've tried installing the same tube (e.g. the MiniWatt Dario 7308s) in both my Isabella preamp and 30.2 power amp, and did NOT find it to be "too much of a good thing" and it indeed was "more of a good thing" if you like the sound of that tube. 

The sound did not get flabby or overly-sweet. 

Having said that, it's also fun to mix with your favorite tubes (e.g. MW Darios and a Pinched Waist) that are not identical sounding, but each one doing something that you like that the other one doesn't do as well.  It tends to give you even more of what you are looking for.  But if one tube is your favorite and does everything you like, then that should be all that is needed.

I hope this helps!

BTW - another tube I have and need to post about (after RMAF) is the Mullard CV2492.  It can be rolled in without any mods to the tube stage.  Skylab of headfi brought it to my attention when he was reviewing the RWA Audeze Edition headphone amp/dac. 

Also check out the MiniWatt ECC86s (a 6GM8 version) of the E188CC MiniWatt Dario...

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: CSI on 5 Oct 2011, 12:39 am

Thanks Vinnie. It looks like experimentation will be the order of the day (as usual).

Oh, and thanks for shipping my Signature 30.2 today. I just got the notice.

Have a great time at RMAF this year. I won't be visiting. I'll be spending all my spare time breaking in my new amp and pricing tubes.

Cheers,

Bill (CSI)
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 16 Jan 2012, 03:22 pm
All,

Soon I'll be receiving an Amperex PQ 8416.  This is a rare version that has a 12V heater, but otherwise shares the same pin-out and is a replacement for a 7308 (so it will involve a minor modification to allow for the 12V heater. 

I heard this tube has the potential to be up there with the best - we'll see.  I'll report more soon!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Merkel 2016 on 17 Jan 2012, 03:20 pm
A note here re a couple of tubes mentioned above:

I started out with the Amperex 7308 in my new Corvina (balanced), skipping the stock JJs, and even before things were fully burned in I was quite pleased; the tube was everything that Vinnie said it would be: nice bass, relaxed treble and very musical to my admittedly inexpert ears. After getting the amp and some new cables burned in, the Amperex 7308 continued to impress me, but I just couldn't help myself when I had the chance to pick up a Miniwatt Dario.

I dropped the MD in the other day not expecting all that much difference because as I said I was quite pleased with the Amperex. In fact I wondered whether I would hear any true improvement at all, telling myself to listen carefully and not to allow any prior expectation based on other's reviews to color my judgment.

And the Miniwatt Dario promptly blew my mind. It was a true "WOW" moment.

The Amperex 7308 is nice. To me the Miniwatt Dario is not just a little bit better but markedly so in all areas: bass reaches deeper while at the same time sounding tighter, mids were sweeter, and treble managed to add what I would call accuracy without assaulting my hearing-- Vinnie called it sweet and airy and I guess that's it but it still doesn't completely convey how nice this tube sounds. Soundstage is spacious without sounding too "disparate" if that's the correct word; as I mentioned, I'm no expert.

YMMV & etc., but to me the Miniwatt Dario is a clear winner as compared to the Amperex 7308, which is not to say that the latter sounds bad at all, it's just a reflection of how good the former sounds to me.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Artmindes on 21 Jan 2012, 01:11 am
...Miniwatt Dario is a clear winner as compared to the Amperex 7308, which is not to say that the latter sounds bad at all, it's just a reflection of how good the former sounds to me.

So the Miniwatt Dario sounds great! Does it also increase speed and liveliness of sound?

I sometimes find Isabellina too polite sounding with heavier rock/electronic music and I am looking for a more aggressive and faster sound.

Which will be better for speed and dynamics - the Miniwatt Dario or Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 27 Jan 2012, 09:45 pm
Hi Merkel2016,

Thanks for your post - I have to agree!  8)

Hi Artmindes,

For more aggressive, faster sounding (and higher resolution), try EAT Coolvalve or Genalex Gold Lion (as posted earlier in this thread).  The MW Dario and Pinched Waist are not the best choice for speed, accuracy, and "aggression" with rock/metal/electronica, IMO...

Vinnie

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: CoolMilo on 3 Feb 2012, 09:20 pm
I purchased a Corvina with the balanced option a month ago and I am very pleased with the purchase. The headphone amp really makes the LCD-2's sing, as Vinnie says.  :D

I started tube rolling. To get started I tried the Amperex 7308. It seemed to make a small improvement over the standard tube, but overall I was not impressed with the upgrade.

Today I received a Miniwatt Daria E188CC and wow what an improvement. I mostly listen to Jazz/World/flamenco music with a side of Pink Floyd and Rush from time to time. But everything that Vinnie described about the tube is the improvement I hear listening to my LCD-2's. They sing and they rock and roll now!

Vinnie wrote:
Miniwatt Dario 7308/E188CC (1960s, Made in France, gold pins, around $150 per tube)

The Sound

- Solid, full-sounding bass
- Fantastic soundstage width and depth
- Fleshed-out midrange
- Rich tone, "meat-on-the-bones" and juicy!
- Sweet and airy top-end

I couldn't agree more.

Does anyone know of a similar thread like this but comparing speaker matching to Red Wine Audio's Amps?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 7 Feb 2012, 02:24 pm
Hi CoolMilo,

Welcome to the Red Wine Audio forum!

I'm glad you are enjoying your balanced Corvina / LCD-2 combo - and the MiniWatt Dario is one of the best tubes for this pairing IMHO! :D

Quote
Does anyone know of a similar thread like this but comparing speaker matching to Red Wine Audio's Amps?

See: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50808.0

Just a sampling of RWA amp / speaker pairings - there are so many more.  Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Happy listening,

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Merkel 2016 on 27 Feb 2012, 06:31 pm
So the Miniwatt Dario sounds great! Does it also increase speed and liveliness of sound?

I sometimes find Isabellina too polite sounding with heavier rock/electronic music and I am looking for a more aggressive and faster sound.

Which will be better for speed and dynamics - the Miniwatt Dario or Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist?

Hey Artmindes, sorry I didn't reply to yours; as you can see from my high post count I don't spend a lot of time here. :lol:  I am more of an electric blues and jazz guy with a bit of everything else thrown in* except metal :o so I'm probably not the best guy to ask-- I'd listen to Vinnie (above) if you haven't already pulled the trigger on a new tube.

*actually, if you include things like Zero 7 or David Holmes in your electronic listening, they sound outstanding through the Miniwatt Dario, but when you say "speed" that might not be what you're looking for. There is a nice bit of what I think the experts-- of which I am not one-- call "decay" in the sound produced by the Miniwatt Dario, which I personally like but it might not be best for really quick, clean transitions in your music. As always, this is only my ears speaking.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: catmansound on 23 Mar 2012, 02:53 am
I'm new to this thread, 1 year's reading in 1 eve, so i'm caught up. Just purchased brand new Isabella & Vinnie is making magic with an old pair of 70.2's upgraded with LFP-V. So, any suggestions for the combo?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 28 Mar 2012, 05:17 pm
Hi catmansound,

There are a lot of good choices!  Once your Isabella and upgraded 70.2s ship back (just waiting on the battery packs, which are on the way!) , I recommend listening with the stock tubes for a while
and then determining what aspects of the sound (if any) that you would like to be enhanced with good NOS tubes  8)

I'll email you as soon as everything ships.

Sincerely,

Vinnie
Title: Re: Signature 15 with Amperex 7308 vintage gold pin and Telefunken PCC88 / 7DJ8
Post by: BrentG on 27 Apr 2012, 05:53 pm
Greetings, All.
   
This is my first post on this forum. I hope to write a detailed review of my Signature 15, once it is fully broken in.
My system: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=1743 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=1743)

My Signature 15 is about half-way through break-in. After spending some time with the Sig 15, I've concluded that (for my system, at least) the stock JJ tube is too forward in the treble. I wanted to see if tube rolling could tame the treble a little.   I purchased two tubes from Upscale Audio: The US-made Amperex 7308 vintage gold pin and the Telefunken PCC88 / 7DJ8.

Amperex 7308 vintage gold pin
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Amperex-7308-vintage-gold-pin!.html (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Amperex-7308-vintage-gold-pin!.html)
This tube has a very relaxed treble. Even the midrange is laid back. The dynamics are… well… laid back. If The Dude was a twin triode, he might be the Amperex 7308 gold pin.
     
I was hoping the Amperex 7308 gold pin would tame the treble. I found that the target was overshot by a considerable margin. Also, I missed the more dynamic presentation of the stock tube. While this tube is pleasant in the Sig 15, it’s just too relaxed for my taste.

Ah, well. 

Telefunken PCC88 / 7DJ8
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Telefunken-PCC88-%7B47%7D-7DJ8.html (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Telefunken-PCC88-%7B47%7D-7DJ8.html)
This tube caught my attention immediately, and has yet to relinquish it.  The treble is extended and smooth; it has a nice sparkle without being harsh. There is an open, airy character to instruments and voices. The midrange is well balanced with the treble and bass. The bass is tight – much tighter and faster than the stock tube or (especially) the Amperex.
   
More generally, this tube is faster and more dynamic than the stock tube – and way, way more so than the Amperex 7308 gold pin.   Imaging is excellent, creating a soundstage with tremendous detail and depth.

In a word, gorgeous.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 30 Apr 2012, 09:59 pm
Hi Brent,

Welcome to the RWA forum!

Thanks for sharing your tube rolling experience with the Signature 15.

I never heard the Telefunken 7DJ8.  Sounds tasty!  :drool:

One day...

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Alwayswantmore on 30 Apr 2012, 10:54 pm
Interesting in that it shows just how much system matching matters. I guess that is one of the advantages of being able to tube-roll to tailor the sound.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: fitmartin on 1 May 2012, 09:07 pm
Amperex 7308 vintage gold pin


Tried an Amperex gold pin 1968 in my Signature 15, very lack lustre and bland sounding...NOT recommended IMHO

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Alwayswantmore on 1 May 2012, 09:32 pm
Hi fitmartin. No disrespect to you, but what I have in both an HPA and Sig 15 sounds amazingly good. These may be different??? ...but this is what I'm running...

Amperex USN-CEP (military grade), gold pins, 7308 tubes. 1965 production, white letter, U.S.A. (Amperex New York) manufacturer (Philips) Amperex factory date code:  VR5 *5D

Cheers! Kent



Amperex 7308 vintage gold pin


Tried an Amperex gold pin 1968 in my Signature 15, very lack lustre and bland sounding...NOT recommended IMHO
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: fitmartin on 3 May 2012, 03:22 am
Different tube from yours, US production green lettered 1968
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Ken D on 3 May 2012, 10:21 am
Question about Dario Miniwatt.

I'm using Amperex 6922 PQ white label in my Signature 15.  Looking for richer sound.

Found a seller with Dario green label tube manufactured in 1979.   Anyone know how close to early 60's tube this tube would sound ?

He wants $90 so looking for some input before I pull the trigger.

thanks.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Profbratsch on 3 May 2012, 03:14 pm

I'm using Amperex 6922 PQ white label in my Signature 15.  Looking for richer sound.

Have you considered Tungsram tubes?  They might have the color you are looking for, and there are quite a few being listed on Ebay at the moment.  Reasonably priced, too... :thumb:

Hope you find what you are looking for!
Title: A funny thing happened on the way to audio bliss…
Post by: BrentG on 8 May 2012, 05:50 pm
Last week – more than a week after rolling in the Telefunken 7DJ8, I noticed a significant change in the Signature 15. The treble opened up further; also the overall dynamics increased. The difference was enough for my wife (who is not a musician, an audiophile, or even a particularly careful listener) to comment that the system sounded brighter.

I was reminded of this posting by Jeff V:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104279.msg1073960#msg1073960 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104279.msg1073960#msg1073960)

Quote
“At 40-50 hours, the Sig 15 snapped into focus rather dramatically.  Kinda went from ‘good’ to "Whoa!"

On some recordings, the Sig 15 / Telefunken 7DJ8 combination is revelatory - the sense of ambiance and air around instruments and voices can be stunning. On other recordings, it’s definitely too much of good thing – it can sound unnaturally bright; male vocals can get lost in the mix, female vocals can have exaggerated sibilant fricatives.

[I should note that my GoldenEar speakers utilize ribbon tweeters. Their treble performance is smooth and extended, but not what I would call forgiving. Also, my listening room is on the live side and I’m not using any acoustic treatments.]

I rolled the Amperex 7308 vintage gold pin back into the Sig 15. What a difference a week makes! This tube sounds much better to me now. It’s still a little too laid back in the treble for me – but only a little.  [I find I’m listening at louder levels to compensate for the treble.] The midrange is really, really good now; most vocals are spot on. Dynamics seem OK to me; not amazing, but I don’t notice the dynamics sounding compressed as before.

Overall, I’d say the Amperex 7308 tube is now closer than the Telefunken 7DJ8 to my ideal tonal balance. I’d like a little of that Telefunken sparkle back in the treble. I’d also like better dynamics.

I guess tube rolling shall continue… First, I shall roll the stock tube back in!

The key thing I’ve learned is to be more patient… allow the unit to fully break-in before commencing the tweaking.

-Brent

******

Master: …Ed Gooberman, you must learn patience.
Ed: Yeah, yeah, patience.  How long will that take?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: fitmartin on 9 May 2012, 04:33 pm
Thanks Brent, your feedback has been very helpful to me.
I found the Amperex 7308 USA produced 1968 too laid back in all areas and returned it for another attempt thanks to the kindness of Chelsea at TC Tubes
here is what is on its way
http://tctubes.com/Philips-Miniwatt-6DJ8-ECC88.aspx
it is high gain so will keep you posted on the sound when I receive it.

cheers,

Martin    :thumb:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: fitmartin on 28 May 2012, 10:15 pm
The Phillips miniwatt made in Holland 1965 is a high gain tube that offers the same sound as the Dario Miniwatt made in France at a fraction of the cost...I paid about $80 shipped

The Sound

- Solid, full-sounding bass
- Fantastic soundstage width and depth
- Fleshed-out midrange
- Rich tone, "meat-on-the-bones" and juicy!
- Sweet and airy top-end

Phillips is the parent company for many Euro made tubes  :thumb:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 29 May 2012, 01:46 pm
Hi fitmartin,

Quote
The Phillips miniwatt made in Holland 1965 is a high gain tube that offers the same sound as the Dario Miniwatt made in France at a fraction of the cost...I paid about $80 shipped

That's a nice price - gotta try them an compare to the Darios....

Thanks for all your posts!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: vincent28 on 12 Sep 2012, 04:32 pm
http://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SH_E88CC

Just place in a siemens grey shield ao over my telefunken cca.
Holy cow
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 21 Sep 2012, 01:43 pm
Quote
Just place in a siemens grey shield ao over my telefunken cca.

Hi vincent28,

Are these as good as the Siemens Cca's from the 1950s?


Cheers!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: AdvoCat on 15 Oct 2012, 09:28 pm
Hi,

New to the board.  I have a 30.2 LFP-V driving Omega 8 XRS w/no sub.  I'm finding the sound to be a bit "bright" for my liking with stock tube.  Will the Dario Miniwatt ease that some?  Any other suggestions?

I want the system to cure a bit before making any changes, but I'd also like to start planning.

Many thanks for your input.

AC
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: mrarroyo on 16 Oct 2012, 09:49 am
AC, for your requirements I like the older Russian 6H23-EB valves.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Markwatkiss on 16 Oct 2012, 12:11 pm
I have the 30.2 LFP-V and my current tube flavour is a Siemens CCA.The CCA provides that extra level of detail and delivers a richer musical presentation than any other tube I have auditioned which included an NOS Mullard ECC88.The CCA has the transparency and sparkle that I enjoy.I would like to "roll in" an Amperex 7308 at some point.
Your products rock Vinnie.
Hi,

New to the board.  I have a 30.2 LFP-V driving Omega 8 XRS w/no sub.  I'm finding the sound to be a bit "bright" for my liking with stock tube.  Will the Dario Miniwatt ease that some?  Any other suggestions?

I want the system to cure a bit before making any changes, but I'd also like to start planning.

Many thanks for your input.

AC
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: AdvoCat on 17 Oct 2012, 07:18 pm
Thanks mrarroyo and Markwatkiss for your suggestions. 

What has been your (or the board's) experience with "burn in " time, for lack of a better term, for these tubes.  In other words, how patient should I be with the stock tube before trying a different one?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: mrarroyo on 18 Oct 2012, 09:32 am
About 100 hours.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Markwatkiss on 18 Oct 2012, 12:14 pm
About 100 hours.
Thanks mrarroyo and Markwatkiss for your suggestions. 

What has been your (or the board's) experience with "burn in " time, for lack of a better term, for these tubes.  In other words, how patient should I be with the stock tube before trying a different one?
I would agree with 100 hours.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 18 Oct 2012, 04:35 pm
Hi AdvoCat and Markwatkiss,

Welcome to the RWA forum!

Quote
I have a 30.2 LFP-V driving Omega 8 XRS w/no sub.  I'm finding the sound to be a bit "bright" for my liking with stock tube.  Will the Dario Miniwatt ease that some?  Any other suggestions?

Yes - the MW Dario is warmer than the stock JJ tube.    Another good one is the Mullard CV2492. 

I agree with the 100 hour tube burn-in time. :flame:  That should be plenty! 

Also, if you guys like the sound of Amperex PQ 7308, then search for Amperex 8416.  It has a 12V heater, but
it sounds identical IMO (really sweet tube).  YOU MUST short the power resistor on the tube stage board to provide
12V heater voltage to this tube (and don't forgot to remove the short when you go back to a 6.3V tube heater!!!). 

Best regards,

Vinnie



Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: tirwin on 29 Nov 2012, 08:08 pm
    Miniwatt Dario - Wow!
   
    Many thanks to Vinnie and the other posters who recommended this tube for the 30.2. I bought a gold grade E188CC/7308 version from Upscale Audio since they didn't have the cheaper driver grade available. It totally transformed the 30.2 from a good to a great amplifier. Detail, soundstage and bass fullness were all increased. The tendency for high frequencies to smear together during loud passages was removed - and this had been an issue with all my previous amplifiers. I'm now hearing a very full, detailed and natural sound from top to bottom, even in loud passages, a total revelation of what my system was capable of with a good tube in the 70.2. This was a memorable system change for me, leading to much more enjoyment of both CDs and LPs.
     While this tube unveils extra detail, be aware it may bring out issues with other components in your system. I became aware of an unnatural hardness on LPs that wasn't there before, and having read the many comments here, I knew it wasn't coming from the amplifier. The culprit was a Nordost Red Dawn interconnect from my phonostage. I had enjoyed its detailed presentation with previous amplifiers, but apparently it was overkill once the Miniwatt Dario was installed. I am now enjoying an OCC all-copper interconnect (Audio Sensibility) that reveals all the detail coming out of the amplifier without any hardness.
      If you haven't tried any other tube in the 30.2 but the stock JJ, you are really missing out on some much better sound.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: catmansound on 22 Dec 2012, 04:19 am
Hi everyone,

A little over a year ago I purchased a used pair of 70'2, (non LFP-V) and just about this time last year Vinnie upgraded those with LFP-V tube technology. The Lilliana's just came out, but i opted for the upgrade to save a couple $k. I've was pleased, to say the least. So much so, that I purchased the Isabella right after. So much for the savings. :duh: Anyway, about a month ago, I came across a great deal for an Esoteric X-01, back to digital, for now... When I posted here back then regarding tube rolling recommendations, Vinnie gave me excellent advice, listen first for a while, then roll. Thank you for that advice, I did listen, and listen, and listen.

Ok, a year later, well over the 100 hours break in, probably twice or thrice that, and then some. As I read through this thread of tube rolling advice, thank you all, thank you Vinnie, I am considering the Miniwatt Dario E188CC/7308, gold. Found 4 available at Upscale Audio (ouch!). So I am considering buying two. Question is, does it make sense to buy two more? The Isabella takes two and one each for the 70.2's (I think).

My gut instinct says, plug the Dario's into the Isabella and let the amps ride with stock... Tube roll Preamp, Amp, both??  Any suggestions, recommendations, experience. Thanks in advance.

Cheers and Happy Holiday's to all,
Anthony
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: mrarroyo on 22 Dec 2012, 10:59 am
If you would like to try a tube that will not brake the bank look into the Tungsram PCC88 also known as 7DJ8. Love mine and although I did not do a lot of shopping I found the matched pair for $50 at Tubemonger.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: catmansound on 22 Dec 2012, 01:33 pm
Thank you mrarroyo for that tip, just searched & found the same. I wonder if they differ from the 6922's that Vinnie listed at beginning of this thread. I guess there's one way to find out  :D Cheers.

update as of Dec. 29, 2012...
I purchased the Tungsram PCC88 and installed them in my Isabella preamp today. For $50 a pair, I'm happy... I've spent the better part of this stormy snowy Saturday comparing the stock tubes to these. The difference is there, especially the bass. I have bassy speakers to begin with, Dali Helicon 400's. It might be a bit too much bass for me now, not sure yet, I will keep playing music through these tubes for a while see if they change any. The treble though is much better to my taste than the stock. The ribbon tweeters of the Dali's were always too soft sounding, they have more presence now. As for mid range, it's broader, somewhat more lip smacking on Nina Marie and Diana Krall, I kinda like that.

Can anyone tell me if there is a benefit to rolling tubes on a pair of LFP-V 70.2's Vinnie upgraded back in March?

Cheers, Anthony
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: zomble on 31 Dec 2012, 02:10 am
Just got my Sig 15. Tried to compare it to my sig 30.2 non lpv. It has the jj tube. I found it a little too analytical.the raspiness in the singers voice was not mellowed out. Debating a miniwatt dario or an EAT with the tube coolers. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: CSI on 31 Dec 2012, 02:55 am
I went from a 30.2 LPV to a Sigature 15. You need two things before you will like your Sig 15 better than your 30.2 (and you will in time). One, LOTS of break in time - 60 to 100 hours. Two, the MiniWatt Dario. Enjoy the journey.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: zomble on 31 Dec 2012, 04:33 am
Anywhere else to get the miniwatt dario other than upscale audio
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: zomble on 4 Jan 2013, 02:07 am
Well its been a week and I am starting to hear the differences with the 30.2 and the sig 15. Talked to Upscale Audio and he seemed to think the the Amperex 7308 and the Miniwatt Dario had very similar characteristics. Considering the Dario is 3 times the price I thought I would try the Amperex 7308 first. If the Sig 15 is this good how good is the new renaissance amps with dual tubes
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: PhishPhan on 24 Jan 2013, 04:28 am
Just installed the mini watt dario; loving the sound so far.

Any idea how long it takes to break in? 100 hours?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: JeffV on 24 Jan 2013, 03:29 pm
Anybody have experience with the EAT ECC 88?  Looks to be in the Dario Miniwatt range for price, but it's in current production.  Here's a linky:  http://www.musicdirect.com/p-5315-eat-cool-valve-ecc-88-aka-6922.aspx
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: dc.kundera on 13 Apr 2013, 08:13 pm
Im using the Amperex "PQ" 841 in my red wine signature 15 with a small bypass vinnie helped me install. The sound has solid bass, is 'tubey' yet still has speed and response. I have listened for a few days and will post more, but overall I cannot at this point find a downside. I like the original tube a lot, but this gives it some more texture and greater bass in my system and room. I particularly find that solo piano is almost astonishing on this system. Jazz, organ, and blues are particularly good, with depth, real feeling and textures of voices and instruments coming out nicely. Thanks vinnie for the advice on this tube. I would recommend it for the price.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: lousyreeds1 on 11 May 2013, 07:00 am
Hi all,

Someone asked this before, but there any alternative to Upscale Audio for the Miniwatt Dario?  $230 is just too rich for my blood.

Thanks!
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 13 May 2013, 12:05 am
Hi all,

Someone asked this before, but there any alternative to Upscale Audio for the Miniwatt Dario?  $230 is just too rich for my blood.

Thanks!

Hi Lousyreeds1,

The tube is also very rich.  :icon_lol:

Seriously, your best bet is to look around on ebay and other for-sale sites. 

Search for "Miniwatt Dario E188CC"

Good luck!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Angaria on 23 May 2013, 03:52 am
Any advice on the 12ax7 vs 6922 in the sig 16?  Have you observed consistent differences between the tube families?  Thanks.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: BrentG on 19 Jun 2013, 04:10 pm
Hi all,

Someone asked this before, but there any alternative to Upscale Audio for the Miniwatt Dario?  $230 is just too rich for my blood.

Thanks!

Yes. I bought mine from Brent Jessee Recording & Supply - http://www.audiotubes.com/ (http://www.audiotubes.com/)
You can contact Mr. Jessee at: brentjes@audiotubes.com

The price was $150, or about 1/3 less than Upscale Audio. Plus shipping/insurance of course.

To find this tube:
Go to the 6DJ8 page: http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm (http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm)
Search for "1960s Mazda France"

-Brent
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Rudyg66 on 4 Aug 2013, 12:11 pm
Hi all
i own since two month the Red Wine Audio Signature 70.2 LFP V mono amplifiers and i'm extremely satisfied!
After listening one month with the standard tubes i decided to start some tube rolling... first i tried was the electro harmonix 6922.
But after burning in it was not a real success.
Then i ordered the Genalex Gold Lions with the super cryo treatment.
And they hit my heart!
Very lively, neutral but not cold, very good dynamic and height's as clear as a crystal!
Sound stage is very realistic and three dimensional.
Voices and violins are like they are in the room itself.
Cymbals sounds like cymbals, drums like drums.
On Double basses it seems that you can count the strings... really great bass performance.
Records taken in a church.....you really find yourself in a church.
Listening to Eva Cassidy let you almost forget that she died 17 years ago.
All in all i would say for the reasonable price this tubes will be a good choice.
Greetings from Switzerland
Rudi
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: flatmap on 11 Aug 2013, 11:15 pm
Then i ordered the Genalex Gold Lions with the super cryo treatment.
And they hit my heart!
Very lively, neutral but not cold, very good dynamic and height's as clear as a crystal!
Sound stage is very realistic and three dimensional.
Voices and violins are like they are in the room itself.
Cymbals sounds like cymbals, drums like drums.
On Double basses it seems that you can count the strings... really great bass performance.
Records taken in a church.....you really find yourself in a church.
Listening to Eva Cassidy let you almost forget that she died 17 years ago.
All in all i would say for the reasonable price this tubes will be a good choice.
Greetings from Switzerland
Rudi

Wow, even with cryo treatment these are so much more economical compared to NOS options. 

Also it's always nice when a tube you like is widely available.  Will probably
check this one out.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 20 Aug 2013, 01:25 am
Hi flatmap,

Go for it - and sometimes the more expensive tubes don't necessarily sound better than lower cost alternatives.  It really depends on how
you want to fine tune the sound. 

Typically, you can go more open, detailed and extended sounding compared to the stock tube.  More dynamic and lively

OR- warmer, richer, and sweeter with "fatter" tone compared to the stock tube.

It gets a little tricky to find tubes that can do all of this, though. 


Hi Rudi,

Welcome to the RWA forum and Audiocircle and viva la Signature 70.2 LFP-Vs!  I'm glad you are enjoying them, and cryo Gold Lions
do sound great with them.  They really open up the sound with the 70.2s.


Hi Brent,

Have you compared the 1960s French Madza tube to the Miniwatt Dario E188CC (France).  I wonder how similar they are.  It would be nice to find some tubes that are very close to or essentially the same as the MD (just like the Amperex 8416 PQ sounds the same as the Amperex 7308 PQ, but with a 12V heater). 


All,

I still need to listen to more NOS 12AX7s.  In the Cassabria headphone amp, I'm actually having a hard time pulling out the stock JJ 12AX7 (ECC83).  It just sounds so right in there from top to bottom - I don't know why, but it does!!!  :singing:


Happy rollin'

Vinnie


Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: alamakazam on 21 Aug 2013, 08:58 am
which tube should I get, if I want sweet slurpy female vocal
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: BrentG on 25 Aug 2013, 05:14 pm

Hi Brent,

Have you compared the 1960s French Madza [sic] tube to the Miniwatt Dario E188CC (France).  I wonder how similar they are.  It would be nice to find some tubes that are very close to or essentially the same as the MD (just like the Amperex 8416 PQ sounds the same as the Amperex 7308 PQ, but with a 12V heater). 

Vinnie

Vinnie,

My understanding is that these are the same tube. Mine have green Miniwatt Dario E188CC labels with F date codes; the boxes are red/blue/yellow labeled Miniwatt Dario with other text in French.

I have two of them, both purchased from Brent Jessee; I have not purchased any of them from Upscale Audio (and this tube no longer appears on their site), so I can't make that comparison.

This is a very rich sounding tube and is excellent is every regard - dynamics, bass/treble extension, tonal balance, and decay.

While I can imagine a better sounding tube, I cannot imagine being able to afford it. :-D

-Brent
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: fitmartin on 4 Jan 2014, 04:24 pm
Speaking of tube rolling, just wish to mention I received a used Siemens 6922/E88CC tube yesterday and it stomps/smokes all the others I have sampled.

Strong tight bass, extended open airy top end and huge soundstage.

Anyone just getting into tube rolling ... this one may be the only one you need to buy!

They are about $150 NOS but I lucked out and got a perfectly fine used one for $65 on the audiomart here in Canada.

Healthy New Year to all!    :thumb:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Dobs on 6 Jan 2014, 12:10 pm
I dug into my drawer of tubes and found a TELEFUNKEN E88CC and dropped it into my Sig15....  OMG!!! What an awesome tube. I hope it will last forever, because i looked at the value of that tube and it's very expensive now.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: fitmartin on 6 Jan 2014, 06:08 pm
That tube is the Holy Grail of tubes according to my tube guy...great job finding one in a drawer!!!

His personal fav but unfortunately too rich for my budget.

ENJOY!

 :thumb:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 6 Jan 2014, 06:15 pm
Hi Fitmartin,

Telefunken is up there for sure, but some will argue that the Amperex 6922 pinched waist is the holy grail (I feel like this is sounding a little DaVinci Code now  :green:).

Quote
I hope it will last forever, because i looked at the value of that tube and it's very expensive now.

In the RWA products, it should last nearly forever because:

- In-rush current limiting is really nice on the tube
- 40 second warm up time before applying B+ voltage is really nice on the tube
- Low voltage B+ is really nice on the tube

So in our tube stages, the tubes are loved and never abused.  :kiss:

Vinnie

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Dobs on 7 Jan 2014, 03:04 am

In the RWA products, it should last nearly forever because:

- In-rush current limiting is really nice on the tube
- 40 second warm up time before applying B+ voltage is really nice on the tube
- Low voltage B+ is really nice on the tube

So in our tube stages, the tubes are loved and never abused.  :kiss:

Vinnie

Sweet! This is what happen when you buy quality electronics smartly designed  :green:
 
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 7 Jan 2014, 04:10 am
Enjoy it, Dobs!  And welcome to the RWA forum  :thumb:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Dobs on 7 Jan 2014, 11:31 am
Enjoy it, Dobs!  And welcome to the RWA forum  :thumb:

It's very nice from you Vinnie, thanks.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Dobs on 8 Jan 2014, 07:33 am
Someone compared the Telefunken E88CC with the EAT Cool Valve ECC88?
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Jannemann on 22 Jan 2014, 11:18 pm
I also rolled the tube in my new Signature 16 and like to share my impressions here. Please don't care about my english as it is a foreign language for me.

I did not love the originally installed JJ tube very much. It wasn't able to reproduce really low frequences and sounded a little cool. In addition voices were compressed when there were lots of instruments playing simultaneously.

Before I decided to give Vinnies small amp a try ( to be honest I was looking for the 57 but Vinnie convinced me to buy a 16 instead because he thought that it has enough power to drive my Zu Soul Supreme. Great service Vinnie! Thank you! ) I used a Trafomatic 300b SET amp with very good tubes. Compared with it the Signature sounded worse.

I decided to remove the JJ and I installed a super strong Siemens grey shield CCa. The tonal balance of the amp immediately changed to perfection. It sounded much more broadbanded and the low frequences were extended in a way that I hadn't expected before while on the other hand the high frequences remained crystal clear and even more refined than before. At the same time it sounded so smooth and warm that it even outpasses my old 300bs.

Combined with the dead quiet background noise it is superior to the much more expensive Trafomatic amp. The compression of voices I experienced with the JJ vanished. Instead every instrument is in the right place and does not take influence on the center voice of the singer.

Don't ask me why but in addition the amp now has better groove. Of course the timing didn't change due to the Siemens tube but nevertheless the musical flow is more intense compared to the JJ.

And there is something I never experienced before. I hardly can believe that but with the Siemens tube the voices of fe. Big Daddy Wilson or Paolo Conte are not only wide but also deep. I mean, we are talkng about a stereo amp and I can hear ( feel ) the body of the person who is singing if closing my eyes.

I was very curious and switched back to the JJ just to find out that this wonderful effect vanished. Don't get me wrong. Even with this tube the amp is not bad. But with my old Siemens CCa it is by far the best amp I ever had at home. And according to the manual it not even passed its burn in time. So I hope that the tonal balance will even get better over time.

Very exciting!

Jan

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 23 Jan 2014, 07:43 pm
Hi Jan,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum, and thank you for posting your impressions of the Signature 16 AND the tube you rolled in.

The tube can really make or break the overall amp / speaker synergy.  And it is an easy an fairly inexpensive way to fine tune the sound to
make it shine in your system.  So I'm glad you decided to try and got better results than the stock JJ. 

Some get a substantial change for the better when tube rolling (like you did).  Others find a small but noticeable change.  And then there is small amount of customers who seem to prefer the stock JJ tube the best. 

Yes - give it 100+ hours and you'll hear it get even better.  Just play music and enjoy it (no need for any special burn-in tracks or anything like that). 

Enjoy it, and thanks for posting!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: viggen on 5 Feb 2014, 02:53 am
Any advice on the 12ax7 vs 6922 in the sig 16?  Have you observed consistent differences between the tube families?  Thanks.

I am curious about this too.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: EL DRIFTO on 12 Mar 2014, 12:36 am
I swapped the stock tubes in my Isabella for a pair of telefunkens (E88Cs I believe). They were from Upscale Audio. They were cryo treated. Quite a big improvement and I am only about 20 hours into burning them in.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Rudyg66 on 12 Mar 2014, 12:38 pm
I just recieved the cryo treated Telefunken E88cc Tubes from Upscale Audio.....
Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rotflmao:
Will report more details after some burn in...............
 :angel:
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 12 Mar 2014, 03:40 pm
Hi El Drifto and Rudy,

Welcome to the Audiocircle and the RWA forum - and thanks for posting!

I also have a pair of Telefunken's E88CCs that I enjoy.  Never heard them Cryo'd yet.
Soon enough I need to post some tube rolling updates here, as it has been a while.

Thanks for keeping us posted!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: newzooreview on 15 Mar 2014, 08:42 pm
This thread was confusing me since the Liliana RE and the Isabella RE can both take some types of tubes but cannot share other types of tubes.

I made the diagram below as an unconfuserator. I believe it's correct?



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=96398)


Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: newzooreview on 15 Mar 2014, 08:56 pm
Regarding the stock JJ tubes in the Liliana RE, I find a variety of types available. Eurotubes has a comprehensive list: https://www.eurotubes.com/cart/index.php?page=view_submenu&category_id=2

Which of these 12AX7 variants of new JJs is stock with the Liliana RE?

ECC83S ( 12AX7 )          --the standard one seen in most online stores
ECC83S Gold Pin            --the gold pin version of the above with perhaps some additional quality control at the factory (?)
ECC83MG                      --a mid-length, ribbed plate version with lower gain than the standard version (#1 on this list)
ECC803S ( 12AX7 )        --a long-plate version
ECC803S Gold Pin          --a gold pin version of the long-plate version
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 17 Mar 2014, 12:51 am
This thread was confusing me since the Liliana RE and the Isabella RE can both take some types of tubes but cannot share other types of tubes.

I made the diagram below as an unconfuserator. I believe it's correct?


Hi newzooreview,

Looks good, but there have been times when I've shipped the Lilianas with JJ E88CC, and other times with JJ ECC83 (because I was out of one).  In the case of these two JJ tubes in the Liliana circuit, they sound very similar. 

Quote
Which of these 12AX7 variants of new JJs is stock with the Liliana RE?


This one:      ECC83S ( 12AX7 )  --the standard one seen in most online stores

Thanks for your post!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: KenH on 3 Jul 2014, 08:01 pm
Hello All,

I'm using the Red Wine Corvina in balanced mode with LCD2s (stock cable)

Using the stock tube but would like a little more definition in the high frequencies and a bit more air and space.

Reading this thread it seems the Miniwatt Dario 7308/E188CC or Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist are highly recommended and have a more open, airy treble than the stock JJ..

I listen to all kinds of music from acoustic folk and jazz through to Hendrix and Stones, Nirvana.

i generally like a rich textured sound but also want to make sure the sound doesn't become too cloying, over-polite or congested.

Can anyone advise me if the above two tubes would be best for me or are there other alternatives?

Thanks,
Ken   
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 8 Jul 2014, 02:58 pm
Hello All,

I'm using the Red Wine Corvina in balanced mode with LCD2s (stock cable)

Using the stock tube but would like a little more definition in the high frequencies and a bit more air and space.

Reading this thread it seems the Miniwatt Dario 7308/E188CC or Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist are highly recommended and have a more open, airy treble than the stock JJ..

I listen to all kinds of music from acoustic folk and jazz through to Hendrix and Stones, Nirvana.

i generally like a rich textured sound but also want to make sure the sound doesn't become too cloying, over-polite or congested.

Can anyone advise me if the above two tubes would be best for me or are there other alternatives?

Thanks,
Ken

Hi Ken,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum!

I would recommend first upgrading the stock cable, as it does lack in high frequency extension.  While not cheap, this one
would be on the top of my list for the LCD-2s:

http://www.aloaudio.com/cables/headphone-cables/reference-8/reference-8-headphone-cable

If you don't want to spend that much, tube rolling would be my next recommendation.

I've been playing with the Telefunken E88CC (that are being sold new-in-box from Upscale Audio) and they seem to have better
resolution, without losing the midrange magic. 

But what what you are looking for, and for the price, the Mullard CV2492 is going to be hard to beat!  From first hand experience, I would get it from this guy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E88CC-CV2492-MULLARD-MILITARY-NOS-BOXED-/260577827114?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item3caba6192a

I know, I know - lots of choices.  I don't think you'll go wrong with any of them, assuming the tubes are in good shape.

Keep us posted!

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: KenH on 10 Jul 2014, 08:01 pm
Many thanks Vinnie.

Unfortunately at the moment anyway I think the cable upgrade is out.

But I will definitely check out your recommendations about the tubes.

Thanks again. Will report back about any changes I make.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: hiradi on 1 Aug 2014, 12:53 am
I have now had the Signature 16 amplifier for a few month and before writing a review , must quickly tell you about my tube rolling result...
Luckily , in my long crazy valve days , I accumulated a nice box of goodies...so , the dipping began ...as the Sig. 16 is a very neutral amplifier and my 99 db Horns crossover  at 900 Hz to a 12" , my thought was to get a bit more "valve flavor"  , so straight to Mullard and Brimar ....found the 12AX7 family to have better control than the 6DJ8's etc....
to cut a long story short...
the one outstanding with absolutely stunning bass control was the Siemens E81CC...triple mica...
Testing was done with Reference Recordings RR-S3 CD "Track 3 - Isaac Albeniz , Festival Day in Seville"...
enjoy...more to come soon... :)...
Helmut




(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103134)
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: HPDJ on 1 Aug 2014, 03:55 am
Thanks for these latest tube impressions! I might be ready to experiment again......the stock tube has been awesome for me and my system. I like it's tonal balance, but if I could have more of that kind of flavoring then......hmmmm :)

I had some gold lion 6922's from cryoset that I liked at first and thought I preferred them to the stock JJ's......but after a while a put the JJ's back in and liked them more. I feel like I burned the GL's in long enough as well so that wasn't really a question :)
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 4 Aug 2014, 06:07 pm
Hi Helmut,

Thanks for your post!

Happy listening,

Vinnie
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: hiradi on 12 Aug 2014, 06:10 am
a "down under" update... :green:...

the previous tube which made me very happy was the Siemens E81CC/6201...
but , as usual after a while back to the famous tube box to see what else is in there...
the unusual sleeper I liked was a CV4024/12AT7WA which I believe was made by Mullard ,triple mica ,square getter...unusual configuration what attracted me here and yes , very nice...bass not as good as the Siemens , but... :D...a bargain...
and than a bit more digging and there was a couple of gold pin Siemens E188CC/7308 with CCA written on the glass...
whoopee !!!
Straight away , the Siemens balanced sound was there , with the Mullard midrange "richness" added...this one will stay in for a while...maybe more surprises later ???
 :thumb:

 
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: lousyreeds1 on 2 Oct 2014, 12:56 pm
Hi all,

I'm looking for new tubes for my Signature 15, Ginevra and Isabellina HPA (all have stock tubes right now) and I'm hoping you'll help me decide.  I'm looking for more immediacy and transparency (micro-dynamics, "speed," etc) while taking a little zing off the highs and retaining the rich and meaty midrange.  I'm considering the following three tubes:

Miniwatt Darios (are these the same as the ones receiving all the acclaim, and does anyone have experience with this seller?)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-PAIR-PHILIPS-MINIWATT-DARIO-E188CC-CCa-6DJ8-E88CC-O-GETTER-NOS-/121388263472

Telefunken E88CC from Upscale Audio

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/telefunken-e88cc-6922/

Mullard CV2492 from an eBay seller recommended by Vinnie

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E88CC-CV2492-MULLARD-MILITARY-NOS-BOXED-/260577827114?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

I'd appreciate any recommendations you might have from among these three!

Thanks,
Oliver
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: CSI on 2 Oct 2014, 03:06 pm
Of the three I only have experience with the Miniwatt Darios. I tried a boat load of tubes in my Sig 15 and later my Sig 16. I settled on the Darios for all my RWA gear (which includes the Bellina DAC and an Analogica). They do pretty much what you are looking for. Got mine from Upscale Audio. Kevin is always great to deal with. But the Darios are pricey and getting pricier.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: lousyreeds1 on 3 Oct 2014, 06:59 am
Thanks for your thoughts, CS1. Upscale doesn't have the Miniwatt Dario anymore. The Miniwatts I mentioned in my last post are a lot cheaper than I would expect, so I'd appreciate someone's assessment of whether they are the real thing and if this is a reputable seller.  I'd be particularly interested in hearing from someone who can compare the Miniwatt to the Telefunken E88CC from Upscale. Thanks!
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: catmansound on 3 Oct 2014, 11:54 am
Way back early in this thread, Vinnie offered up some interesting options, one of which are the Mullard CV2492, which are also mentioned a few posts up here as well, I bought a matched pair from 1970 from Tubemonger.com I think I paid around $200 matched pair, maybe it was less, i can't remember. I own the Isabella and 70.2's LFP-V's, and found that these, for me, work very well in the Isabella. I use a pair of Mullard E188CC Dimple Disk GT in the amps. The sound difference is most affected when I tube roll with the Isabella, but I think that's typical for preamps. As you have the Sig's the differences would most likely be notable. The CV2492's are very warm, very deep, a lot of bass, which I like, and a pretty clear high end, but the highs could be a bit more up front, IMHO, (Dali's Helicon 400's and now Dali Epicon 8's), I think it's those ribbon tweeters. Overall, the Mullard's are something you might want to look at if you are thinking of a sound very different from most of the others i have tried, including the stock JJ's that came with the units and a pair of Tungsram PCC88's from 1971. I admit that all the hype about the Miniwatts has had me intrigued, but i haven't been able to find them at a price I was willing to pay, so for now, I'm comfortable with this setup.

cheers,
Anthony
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: catmansound on 3 Oct 2014, 03:43 pm
newzooreview's unconfuserator is a great diagram, thanks for that. As I'm awaiting response from Vinnie on updating all my LFP-V equipment to RE, or maybe who knows what that tinkerator has in store, the diagram got me thinking, what would happen if one were to accidentally plug in a tube 'not supported or rated' by the equipment? never had that happen, but with multiple tubes kicking around my house, I'm sure it may come up some day.
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Ictwoody on 26 Nov 2014, 12:05 am
I'm bumping this thread back up. I hope no one minds.

I'm wondering if anyone has tried these Telefunken E88CC's that Upscale currently has for under $150 in a Sig 16? Thoughts?
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/telefunken-e88cc-6922/

- Woody

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Vinnie R. on 7 Dec 2014, 03:56 am
I'm bumping this thread back up. I hope no one minds.

I'm wondering if anyone has tried these Telefunken E88CC's that Upscale currently has for under $150 in a Sig 16? Thoughts?
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/telefunken-e88cc-6922/

- Woody

Hi Woody,

Thanks for the bump - feel free to keep this thread going!

The Telefunken E88CC from Upscale is what I'd call a "good all-around tube" and improvement over the stock JJ.  Not what I personally have found to be the "best or near-best" with anything, but it seems to be a nice improvement on many things.  Not cheap, but not terribly expensive.  I recommend at least owning one in your collection.  I don't think anyone will have any regrets with this tube...

Vinnie

Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Ictwoody on 8 Dec 2014, 04:31 am
Hi Woody,

Thanks for the bump - feel free to keep this thread going!

The Telefunken E88CC from Upscale is what I'd call a "good all-around tube" and improvement over the stock JJ.  Not what I personally have found to be the "best or near-best" with anything, but it seems to be a nice improvement on many things.  Not cheap, but not terribly expensive.  I recommend at least owning one in your collection.  I don't think anyone will have any regrets with this tube...

Vinnie

Thanks for the reply, Vinnie. Very helpful.

The stock JJ is pretty good really. I've rolled in a Sylvania 7308 I had in my stash while I wait for a Gold Pin Amperex 7308 to arrive from one of my normal tube pushers.

The Sylvania sounds good... It's a bit quieter than the stock JJ, but it's very UN-inspiring. Just less musical somehow. I'm thinking the Amperex will be the ticket.

- Woody
Title: Re: LFP-V Edition Tube Rolling Thread
Post by: Blu99Zoomer on 13 Dec 2014, 07:15 pm
Hi Vinnie,

I am enjoying reading the comments from everyone regarding their experiences with tube rolling in their LFP-V Edition equipment.  I have a newbee question.  I have a Signature 15 LFP-V Edition amplifier that I got from you last fall.  It is not the integrated version.  This still has a tube stage?  I thought that the tube stage was located in the preamplifier section of the integrated version.  Thanks.

Blu99Zoomer