AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: James Tanner on 18 Dec 2016, 02:29 pm

Title: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: James Tanner on 18 Dec 2016, 02:29 pm
http://www.dagogo.com/what-happened-to-hifi
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 18 Dec 2016, 02:40 pm
When did Bryston put out their first amp? 1965?

For me, it makes no difference whether a salesperson understands IM/THD or slew rate measurements.....it's what I hear with my music when auditioning gear, that matters in the end.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 18 Dec 2016, 03:57 pm
IMO, the biggest issue, and it's not mentioned in the article, is that nobody even knows what a decent HiFi system is capable of anymore. They've never experienced a decent system. How can people want what they don't know exists? How can we sell HiFi to folks who have no clue what the product is even capable of? This is the big problem with the decline of the HiFi audio store...

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 18 Dec 2016, 04:27 pm
^  Everybody's too wired up to their iDevices, shorter attention spans, and cheap quality MP3s for convenience = downfall of hi-end audio.

Even if they had the time to sit and listen to hi-end gear, few have the mean$ to acquire top-flight equipment like Bryston. A bit like luxury cars -- it's mainly the older (retired?) generation that appreciates the finest cars like Jaguars, Bentleys, and 450SL's....but I'm rambling....
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: spence on 18 Dec 2016, 04:32 pm
When you have a stalled (for most people) economy, everybody wants smaller and cheaper, and it wouldn't hurt if we could get people off their phones long enough to smell the roses and enjoy some relaxing listening.....
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 18 Dec 2016, 04:39 pm
^ The problem (if it is one) is many find listening to their iDevices relaxing. Heck, I do it when I travel. iPod/iPhone with Focal Sphear IEMs. MP3s.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 18 Dec 2016, 04:46 pm
When you have a stalled (for most people) economy, everybody wants smaller and cheaper, and it wouldn't hurt if we could get people off their phones long enough to smell the roses and enjoy some relaxing listening.....

The 2008 crash really hurt a lot of people and imo marked the end of the middle class and the prosperity our economy enjoyed through the 90's. We haven't recovered, and the result is the market for literally everything split into high and low end with a lot less in-between.

There is a new ultra-high-end audio market that now exists due to the recent establishment of a millionaire/billionaire class in many other countries due to globalization.

My feeling is that the remaining B&M audio dealers are more upscale and mostly serve folks with higher incomes. Not that stores didn't always showcase high end systems, but their bread and butter was middle-end sales. Now, I'm not so sure that's the case.

One thing that certainly is the case is the folks left in the middle class are much more careful about how they spend their money and want to make sure they are getting the best value possible, which has lead to the proliferation of internet-direct companies, I'm surprised the article didn't mention that either, as it's a major trend. It seems like dealer and direct-sale have overlapping products but not nearly as many overlapping customers. The folks with the money to go to a dealer won't spend the time to research direct-sale options, in general.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Tympani on 18 Dec 2016, 07:00 pm
This is not an issue of affordability. It's a issue of convenience, and to a large extent, complacency. I know many individuals with high 6, and 7-figure incomes who feel that an iPhone connected to a Bluetooth streaming system, plugged to a surround-sound or whole house system,  is the epitome of music reproduction. And don't see the need for anything more. Music sounds "good enough" And most are passive listeners, where playlists become more important than fidelity. And then there's the material...

You don't even need to spend "Bryston money" to get quality music reproduction. You just have to care enough to look.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jpm on 18 Dec 2016, 07:07 pm
The 2008 crash really hurt a lot of people and imo marked the end of the middle class and the prosperity our economy enjoyed through the 90's. We haven't recovered, and the result is the market for literally everything split into high and low end with a lot less in-between.

You're correct, and the only thing I'd add is that the '08 crash forced a long term (~30 year) economic policy trend to everyone's consciousness - the disconnection of productivity increases to broad based income growth. 

This research is well worth reading for an appreciation of how several decades of economic policy have affected recent generations:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/opinion/the-american-dream-quantified-at-last.html?_r=0

HiFi as I grew up with it in the '70s and '80s will never return, but there are still some things to consider for the future:

- How much worse are lossy (lousy?!) MP3s than cassettes?
- Internet reviews and sites are a great democratizer in terms of information. Maybe highly knowledgeable salespeople aren't prevalent, but information is far more accessible.
- It can be argued that the internet offers greater opportunity for startups than ever before
- Streaming services are a gift from heaven for discovering new music
- The resurgent interest in Vinyl is also kindling an interest in vintage equipment from the '70s and '80s

When I'm feeling optimistic, I like to think that if only we would address the economic choices that have gutted the middle class, a new generation would follow their hearts in search of ways to better enjoy the music they love.

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Pundamilia on 18 Dec 2016, 07:40 pm
I can relate to Marc Silver's article. However, I don't feel that the number of knowledgeable dealers has decreased so much (I live in a large metropolitan area), but there certainly is a glut of mass market audio out there. What I really don't understand is that there are probably more medium to high-end manufacturers and equipment out there, but there are very few people who are interested in high-quality sound. I seem to be one of the very few among my friends and family who are critical about the reproduction quality of the music I listen to. It seems that almost everyone I know is content to buy a run-of-the-mill receiver and a pair of Bose speakers.

Given the above, I have to wonder how the large numbers of manufacturers and products manage to proliferate, given the current marketplace. As one contributor mentioned, it seems to be older, retirees who are buying the high-end equipment.

Am I off the mark here? :?  :x
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Dec 2016, 08:28 pm
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Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Phil A on 18 Dec 2016, 09:08 pm
It depends on where one lives.  Where I am, there is probably one local hi-fi dealer within a 50 miles radius.  He is only open 3 days.  The store is not overly big (it is a small house that he shares with his significant other who does photography).  I may have more equipment at home in my various system than the dealer has.  They seem to want to cater to the ultra expensive high end and really don't seem to care about the average audiophile buying a particular item (besides myself several other local audiophiles have more or less said the same thing that there is very little in the store of personal interest to them).  I tried several times to get a demo of a music server to no avail (and of course left my contact info).  So for me personally the hi end dealer model is more or less essentially dead.  I generally look at places like Audio Circle and attend shows to keep up with what is out there and what is available.  Here is another recent thing about it - http://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/editor/decline-high-end-audio-sales-new-outlook/
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 18 Dec 2016, 09:38 pm
The most valuable thing I gained from having a B&M store nearby was the education/exposure they provided to me of the high-end, similar to what Marc first experienced.  Now the closest thing I have to a B&M audio store in this rural area is a combo A/V-audio store 50 miles away that last time I bothered stopping in had never heard class T amps, internet streaming, a stand alone DAC, or attended an audio show.  The 5 closer shops have all closed. 

Seems that audio manufacturing has shifted from a relatively few large factories to many more cottages.  With so many unestablished players most can't be expected to survive for the decades that many have in the past.  With change come churn.

Good points jpm.

And yes, convenience is paramount.  Few appreciate audio fidelity and why should they?  Few would-be audiophiles listen to live/unamplified music to know what "real" music really sounds like.  So MP3 via earbuds sounds perfectly good compared to PA speakers in an arena.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Folsom on 18 Dec 2016, 11:38 pm
Maybe a problem with many B&M stores selling "affordable" things is people couldn't care less about non-innovative products. Let's face it most of them were mostly selling stuff you can order online before their decline. Ya some of it was good, but in general they lost the cutting edge they once had. They've been destroyed by better offerings. The exception is in the high end pricey stuff.

People can hop online and see cool stuff any time, why go looking at boring stuff? Kickstarter funds tons of shitty audio things that have one feature you don't find somewhere else, innovation. They're crap, but they're not tired as hell. If people want old school they'll buy old school... Or they might pay a premium for something that truly looks old school. In many ways it's like a lot of companies got old and lost the effort that got them there.

I'd love to have a good local place but why would I want to go there to listen to Klipsch, McIntosh, Paradigm, Marantz, PSB, and Cambridge? I want to hear Salk, Spatial, Vinnie Rossi, Bryston, NuPrime, Odyssey, Pass Labs, Reference 3A, Nagra, Genesis, PAP, Seraphim, Thrax, Ubiq, JAF, and you get the idea.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: veloceleste on 18 Dec 2016, 11:42 pm
I think a lot has to do with the way music is now listened to today by younger adults.
The proliferation of headphone systems is also evidence of this shift in listening habits and the decline of system sales.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 18 Dec 2016, 11:56 pm
Live music costs a lot cheaper than even a mid-fi audio system -- an average season subscription to a symphony orchestra/chamber series/opera/jazz series is around $200 for decent seats. Multiply that by 3, and you still end up paying only about $600 per season. Vs. say $5K for a mid-fi system, or $15-30K for a hi-end two-channel system made up of the likes of Bryston etc. Not saying it's better than owning a SOTA system at home. But with all these observations posted above, is it any wonder hi-end is thinning out?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 18 Dec 2016, 11:58 pm
Its hard for B&M to compete with direct sales on a price basis.

Headphone based systems make a ton of sense.  Most don't have a "good" room to listen in.  Gen X and millennials are raising kids, so space and disposable income are both in short supply. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: timind on 19 Dec 2016, 12:16 am
Time marches on and things change. Other than a few people I've met on forums like this or through buying/selling equipment, I don't know anyone who listens to music with serious intent.

It's a niche market and getting nichier everyday.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: brooklyn on 19 Dec 2016, 12:36 am
High end audio is a want not a need. If our/my generation had iPads back in the day, guess what,
thats what I/we would probably be using.. I have personally given up on a high end system, not
because I can’t afford it but for convenience and I no longer have the room. For me, a good quality
computer headphone system is now the norm. It sounds great and allows be to do things on my
computer while listening to excellent sounding music files.. In the end, it’s what you like/need..
Personally, I’m having a blast.. YMMV

Brooklyn
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: davidavdavid on 19 Dec 2016, 04:35 am
HiFi as we in the echo chamber would like to call it has ceased to exist in the mainstream. Take a look around you at the average of those willing to admit to the world and public at large that they are audiophiles.

The culture in which today's Millennial live is far different from ours, far different from a generation a scant ten years ago. The living spaces are smaller and their duration may be very well be marked in months and not years. As this generation is to a degree far more nomadic than those preceding, setting down roots with a bed is one thing, setting them down with a  whole mess of components, cables and speakers is wholly a different matter.

Its not the failure of hi-fi sales personnel or hi-fi shops, but the persistent and consistent failure to see what was/is right before them. What was the average of audiophiles 10 years ago? What is the average of audiophiles today? Do not confuse the uptick in vinyl sales with some sort of renaissance. For all we know records are being bought for display purposes only (conspicuous consumption) and if played, done so on turntable which would make our collective colons cringe.

Now let's look at a positive trend. There are companies who are now making affordable entry level HiFi gear.  NuPrime and ELAC's Debut Series are but two examples. I regularly invite friends of friends over to not only hear my primary system, but my secondary system of a Tandberg receiver and set of Wharfedale Denton 2xp speakers to have them hear what is possible. And when they hear how good music can actually sound they are inclined to not only listen but contemplate an investment of no more than $1000 on a system. It may not be much, but it is a start.

What this means, is those of us who want to see the HiFi thrive and continue have to become proactive in our roles. There are fewer and fewer HiFi shops out there. so where are prospective audiophiles going to hear systems. It as this point that I bemoan the paucity of Audio Societies around the country. The ones that are  established should run regular events where members are encouraged to bring the initiated to meetings so they can experience what is indeed possible in the world of audio.

Let's take a look at the music that is used to demonstrate systems at shows and in the HiFi shops remaining. It is the music of anybody else's but THEIR generation. Today's' youth need to hear music they recognize and identify with to make the distinction between compressed/sonically deficient music and what the artists and producers really had in mind. To see mouths open and jaws drop when I play music for members of today's generation and they hear things in the music they love, that they never heard before, a bridge appears. What is missing from the music they listen to must be pointed out to them with their own ears. They have to have the epiphany for themselves.

I enjoy reading Stereophile, and have done so for decades, but if I'm going to encourage prospective audiophiles, its not going be through the magazine, but rather its blogs, in particular the posts written by one Jana Dagdagan. Her writing is not only engaging, but is current and speaks to those of her age. If you have not read her pieces on line, I not only encourage you to do so, but those decades younger than ourselves to follow her on Twitter @janadagdagan and click through the tweets to her writing.

Am I fan of a lot of new bands? No. Do I continue to explore? Yes Am I surprised to see/hear that when played on my system that some of these artists and their producers actually care about sound quality which is not readily apparent if one were to listen to compressed/diluted streams and downloads.

HiFi is still with us, it's just not feeling so hot at the moment, and we need to marshall our resources and come to its aid. its payback time, for all that HiFi has given to us over the years, it's up to us repay all those kindnesses.

Respectfully yours.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 19 Dec 2016, 12:06 pm
Audioengine is on the right track.  They provide for a compact, relatively cheap, and easy entry point into in-room audio.  The HD3 ($399/pair, F3=65Hz) for instance allows for wired (digital or analog) or wireless inputs, front mounted on/off-volume controls, built-in DAC/power amps, and even a headphone jack to address that other mode of modern listening in a 7 inch tall speaker.  Just two wires needed, power cord and speaker cable.  Setup takes only a minute.

The concept is anti-audio establishment: simple; not impressive looking; not expensive.  No trophies to gloat over, no stuffy audio shops to visit, no years of crawling up (or around) the audio food chain, no frustration of gear mismatches, no need for DIY, no futzing with setups.  The concept removes all the hobbyist elements and gives direct access to in-room music. 

This is the new world of audio.  No longer to be taken deathly seriously, but to be enjoyed where you live.  It's a reformation of audio.  The old guard will slowly fade away, it has already become less relevant as the masses have given up worrying about the last percentages of ultimate fidelity for the sake of their wallets, lifestyle, and sanity. 

A midpoint has also emerged, the compact DAC/preamp with more purist active monitors.  Wired connections is the norm, but a simpler setup, good for desktop or in-room with stands (subwoofer optional).  Sound quality can be very good, prices are significantly lower, setup flexibility greatly improved.  The challenges here are: 1.) Getting over using studio inspired speakers; 2.) Giving up the dominating trophies; 3.) Giving up much of the hunt for separates; and 4.) Giving up vinyl where a "reasonable" desktop solution is needed. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 19 Dec 2016, 12:57 pm
I don't anyone, who's interested in accurate reproduction of music in their living room, who acquires gear for "trophy" purposes. It's not like jewellery or cars, that are status symbols that are too easy to show off to strangers.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: davidavdavid on 19 Dec 2016, 01:49 pm
While I'm not about to argue that the minimalism is alive and well at the present, it is indeed having a chilling effect on HiFi, as I touched upon in an earlier post. If one is to buy into the status quo as immutable, then by all means HiFi as we knew it, as we grew up with it, as we continue to interact with it today might very well be gone.

The is the last thing Industry designers, manufacturers, and dealers want. They are not a blind lot. They can see that in order for them generate revenue and profitability (gasp) they must make components and systems which meet the mainstream wants. The jury is out on whether or not the mainstream knows what it needs, or is even in a position to be aware of what is possible sonically. If one looks at the future, as if it were a one way tunnel, with no route to the past, designers, manufacturers and might as well close up shop and be done with it. No need for upgrades, no need for new and improved products.

I can and have been at sometimes,  the industry's harshest critic, but as a longtime audiophile/hobbyist (spanning 5 decades) am not ready to surrender, to wave the white flag. The watchword for audiophiles and audio industry is renaissance. If new blood is not injected to audiophilia as we know and appreciate it, then it is indeed game over.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 19 Dec 2016, 02:28 pm
As a history buff I recall that renaissance preceded reformation.  The renaissance (digital sourcing and streaming) has already happened.  It opened the door to higher quality, more convenience, miniaturization, and lower prices.  iFi and NuForce are good examples. 

What we're seeing now is the reformation.  Old thinking is losing relevance.  The middle class (always the biggest market) no longer has the money or the space for legacy floor standing speakers or huge racks of gear.  So old school hi-fi is a dinosaur, best left to old farts with smoking jackets and single malt scotch and soon to museums.  As mentioned above, why invest $10,000 in gear and another $20,000 in media when you could buy a lifetime of live performances plus a system that gives up the last 5% of fidelity to add convenience and have access to 25 million albums via Tidal.

That's still Hi-Fi in my book.  And much closer to enjoying music.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: wushuliu on 19 Dec 2016, 02:45 pm
This is not an issue of affordability. It's a issue of convenience, and to a large extent, complacency. I know many individuals with high 6, and 7-figure incomes who feel that an iPhone connected to a Bluetooth streaming system, plugged to a surround-sound or whole house system,  is the epitome of music reproduction. And don't see the need for anything more. Music sounds "good enough" And most are passive listeners, where playlists become more important than fidelity. And then there's the material...

You don't even need to spend "Bryston money" to get quality music reproduction. You just have to care enough to look.

The Internet permits the loudest voice in the room to dominate and one of those voices has been the no difference between Mp3 and x.  So if a newcomer has a question on some generic site like CNET you get swarmed with these crusaders and their opinions oh I mean facts. This is another factor as they spam every site with no difference between anything diatribe. Pick any component and there will be someone just waiting to spread the gospel.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DogsPart2 on 19 Dec 2016, 02:58 pm


For me, it makes no difference whether a salesperson understands IM/THD or slew rate measurements.....it's what I hear with my music when auditioning gear, that matters in the end.

You sir, are correct.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: davidavdavid on 19 Dec 2016, 03:08 pm
Case in point. NuForce is no longer NuForce it is Optoma, and the fellow behind NuForce now has built up NuPrime as a company which is addressing a different market with its IDA-16, IDA-8, DAC 10, etc .... (NuPrime has its own Circle on AudioCircle, and has amassed a rather loyal following)

If indeed the world of HiFi has been relegated to those for whom headphones and an economical rig suffice, then why would NuPrime have been started at all? and why would it be attaining numerous awards (The Absolute Sound) and interest across the board? It appears to have more than a few reputable nationwide sites selling their product as well as a growing dealer network.

And if indeed one is to accept this view as dogma, why should AudioCircle exist? Why should any number of the companies with Circles who do not fit into such a proscribed criteria of cost, size and portability continue their respective Circles? and for that matter why should they continue to do business? One would think they'd be doomed. Foolhardy in light of the immutable fact that the old farts in their smoking jackets will assuredly be pushing up daisies, leaving this mortal coil, leading the choir invisible.

History never repeats
I tell myself before I go to sleep
And there's a light shining in the dark
Leading me on towards a change of heart

 -Split Enz-
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 19 Dec 2016, 03:23 pm
The Internet permits the loudest voice in the room to dominate and one of those voices has been the no difference between Mp3 and x.  So if a newcomer has a question on some generic site like CNET you get swarmed with these crusaders and their opinions oh I mean facts. This is another factor as they spam every site with no difference between anything diatribe. Pick any component and there will be someone just waiting to spread the gospel.

I always like to remind myself: Darwin is always right.
Survival of the fittest (smartest, etc.).

A critical, skeptical mind (especially with the social media running amok) always emerges victorious.

 :thumb:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: dB Cooper on 19 Dec 2016, 04:31 pm
I appreciate all the thoughtful responses to this thread. And thanks for the link to the original article.

It's more than the stores. I have attended Capital Audiofest the last four or five years (now that the stores are almost all gone, shows are often the only way to hear new equipment). I don't know if I'm going to go anymore. Why? Because, aside from some of the more rationally priced headphones, there isn't much there that speaks to me. I bought my first system (Dyna SCA80/A25/Dual 1218/Shure M91E) (kit) in the early 70s at fifteen, with money from saving allowances and cutting lawns. It cost $330; about $2500 in today's money. Here's the biggest difference between hi-fi then and hi-fi now IMHO: The cost of that system wasn't all that much more than than the department store systems that it blew away with ease.

There is essentially no counterpart to that system in today's audio marketplace. At Capital Audiofest, the closest thing is always the Odyssey room, where he is usually showing a system that costs about $7000. Even that's triple the cost of my Dynaco system, adjusted for inflation, when you take into account the fact that that $7000 does not include a front end of any sort. And the other systems? I did some calculating, and the mean price of the systems I was able to find information for was between $60,000 and $70,000. The Fuc

It is my contention that you do not have to spend $60-$70,000 to get satisfying reproduction of music in the home. But many audiophiles act like it is, deriding lower-priced equipment as "mid-fi" and such. People spend more on cabling than I spent on my entire system. Spend your money however you please, but I submit that the message that you need to spend $1000 just to get the power from the wall to (insert component name here) is actually a deterrent to people getting interested in high fidelity (I hate the term 'high end') music in the home.

Someone mentioned iDevices. Headphones account for most of my listening time these days. Had to sell my component system some years back during hard times and just never got another one- partly because I just don't have five figures to sink into an audio system deemed worthy by today's market, and partly because most of my listening time these days is through headphones, and I get just as much (if not more) satisfaction listening to my SE 535 or HD 650 through a $200 headphone amp as I ever did when I was obsessing over my room component system. In fact, in many rooms at capital audio fest, I found myself thinking (acknowledging the parameters and limitations of headphones) "I get better sound at home for five cents on the dollar". In fact, I probably get more satisfaction listening to Tidal through my Dragonfly Black and SE 535's than I did when I was obsessing over which phono cart had the best synergy with my turntable.

It would be nice to see a healthy entry-level market for decent sounding audio equipment at a reasonable price but there just isn't one anymore. Too bad. The purveyors want to so a few hundred $80,000 systems rather than a few thousand $8000 systems. The hobby needs to get back to the basics. There is more margin in tweaks than in components, so that is where much of the marketing effort goes. Again, spend your money however you like, but I think $2000 (or <half that if you shun 'audiophile' room treatments and hang some quilts) spent on room treatments will have a much bigger influence on the sound you hear than $2000 spent on esoteric cabling.

It's hard to find anyone who doesn't like some form of music. So, if there are music systems that are reasonably priced and have good sound, that should be a huge market. Why isn't it?

Rant over.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: James Tanner on 19 Dec 2016, 04:51 pm
Nice rant dB - love the passion  :thumb:

For me as good as headphones are they just are not my main listening preference.

I have tried all or most of the top quality headphones as we manufacture an excellent headphone amp - the BHA-1. But for me the recreation of a 3-dimensional sound stage with instruments placed correctly in space is my priority and try as I may I just have not been able to achieve that with the use of headphones.

A pair of the Bryston Mini A speakers at $1200 and a nice integrated amplifier and source will do this kind of 3D presentation so for me I would prefer this setup in a small room over headphones.

james

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Haurock on 19 Dec 2016, 05:14 pm
 :dunno:

I'm not sure anything has happened to HiFi per se.  Given the prices of HiFi, I think it's doing very well, than you very much.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the number of audiophiles that existed in the 70's was not all that significant and the number of audiophiles that exists today is not all that significant.  We have been a very very rare breed and I think we will continue to be a very rare breed.  Listening to music through a high quality sound system is a 'time consuming' activity that can only be enjoyed by one, perhaps 2 people at a time.  It's certainly not a group activity.  Think about it when have your system on and you are listening to music, how often are you sharing that with someone else in the room?  How aggravating is it to hear someone else make noise elsewhere in the house? 

And let's not forget.  We don't all agree on what is an 'audiophile'. 

Some people like to spend lots of money on cars.  Cars they don't dare drive in the winter, or rain... Personally, I think that that is foolish, but try and tell them that.  Some people like to spend their money on expensive jewelry.  We all have our...  :green:... vices. 

I once read in Playboy that difference between men and boys is ----- the price of their toys and we do love our toys. 


Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 19 Dec 2016, 05:17 pm


I once read in Playboy that difference between men and boys is ----- the price of their toys and we do love our toys.


And the size of their......
bank accounts.

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Early B. on 19 Dec 2016, 05:54 pm
Yeah, the author of that article has been obsolete for the 10 years, and rightly so. There's a new type of audiophile that doesn't derive their information from a customer service rep at a B&M store -- they get it the same way we do -- from the internet through forums like audiocircle. There are tons of lurkers who research and learn from our mistakes and successes, but you'd never know they exist. Someone is buying good gear. That's how the internet dealers are staying in business. So if the obsolete dude wants to stay relevant and continue with his passion of educating people about all things audio, he needs to join AC. We'd love to pick his brain. Maybe one of his grandchildren could show him how to log on.   
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: timind on 19 Dec 2016, 06:00 pm
Great rant there db Cooper.

I'm kind of with you as far as what you need to have a quality listening experience. I use an ipod 5th gen through a Nuforce HDP amp to my Senn HD650s for most of my listening. I still have a system set up in a designated room, but finding the time to really get in to it is difficult.

As a means to try and reinvigorate my desire to listen I bought a turntable. With about 100 albums I thought it might be fun. So far...meh.

There are activities I might've considered hobbies that I no longer do. Who here is old enough to remember spending a weekend afternoon polishing their cars? I wonder how the car wax industry is doing?

It's a rarified hobby we participate in. I just don't see the point in lamenting it's slow demise, or continued shrinkage. It surely seems inevitable. Now if I was in the industry, I'd feel differently.
It doesn't even make me sad.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: BobRex on 19 Dec 2016, 06:30 pm
There are activities I might've considered hobbies that I no longer do. Who here is old enough to remember spending a weekend afternoon polishing their cars? I wonder how the car wax industry is doing?


Not to steal the thread....

The car wax industry is doing fine.  Actually, like the audio industry, it has striated into levels of quality, going from lo-end / mid-fi (original, and still available Simonize, and basic Turtle Wax), to high-end (Meguiers, Mothers,...), to exotica, some costing into the hundreds of dollars (Zymol, Pinnacle, Wolfgang), to even the ultra-exotics (polymer coatings and nano-ceramic particles.)  Take a look at a site like autogeek.net if you want to see who uses the upper end stuff.
Title: A snippet from a dialogue with Thom Hogan...
Post by: Jim Pearce on 19 Dec 2016, 06:33 pm
Noted Nikon expert Thom Hogan likes to use the (supposed) extinction of high end audio to illuminate the falling sales of high end DSLR cameras:

Me:

In your most recent article Thom, I have to wonder how this extinction event plays out in terms of demographics. I have a feeling that a disproportionate number of ILC users are like me and largely use a cell phone for calling on the go, and the appeal of the ILC is a quality issue - not unlike the appeal of high end audio (and we know what is happening there).

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that while the typical ILC user is technologically informed (given the workflow complexity, needs to be) we may have a different, more extrinsic, relationship to technology than is typical among younger people. The question in my mind is whether even if the workflow impediments were removed the standalone would make much sense to younger people.

Thom:

The demographics of ILC buyers is "aging." The attraction to new, younger buyers just isn't really there.

The High Fidelity analogy is the right one, I believe. That industry lost to convenience at a time when an aging group of buyers were arguing over whether or not they could actually hear a difference between two products or not. Sound familiar?

I've said it for awhile now: if you don't make it convenient you won't regrow the market. Eventually we'll get a startup or perhaps a Silicon Valley company who tackles "higher end imagery" with a more modern approach, and then it really will be game over for the camera companies.

Me:

I was trying to make a deeper point: those of us who use DSLRs and who are into high resolution audio are trying to capture "the real thing". Younger generations really do live in the "worldless world" (Heidegger) of technology and I'm not sure that "higher end" has any meaning for most of them - at least beyond good enough for 4K.

What worries me most about Nikon's approach to DSLRs here is that their image perfectionism is out of control; clearly trumping getting the shot, processing the shot and communicating the shot. And economics too. Their push to FX clearly is good for profitability in the short run, but in the medium term I see it as a disaster.

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 19 Dec 2016, 06:44 pm
Yeah, the author of that article has been obsolete for the 10 years, and rightly so. There's a new type of audiophile that doesn't derive their information from a customer service rep at a B&M store -- they get it the same way we do -- from the internet through forums like audiocircle. There are tons of lurkers who research and learn from our mistakes and successes, but you'd never know they exist. Someone is buying good gear. That's how the internet dealers are staying in business. So if the obsolete dude wants to stay relevant and continue with his passion of educating people about all things audio, he needs to join AC. We'd love to pick his brain. Maybe one of his grandchildren could show him how to log on.   

I agree and nicely written.

Quote
Again, spend your money however you like, but I think $2000 (or <half that if you shun 'audiophile' room treatments and hang some quilts) spent on room treatments will have a much bigger influence on the sound you hear than $2000 spent on esoteric cabling.

dBCooper,

Nice post. Part of what you said is the reason I got into DIY back in the early 90's when I was in college. It was way too expensive on a college budget (my dream speaker at the time was the Legacy Whisper) and then my DIY interests stuck (and frankly has grown since then with readings of several reference texts, etc...). With my current income I could afford some of these megabuck systems however I choose not to and instead continue to forge ahead in DIY. There is a part of my head that has a hard time justifying the costs of megabuck systems even though my dispensable income has increased dramatically. And I completely agree on paying attention to room treatment and the like. I feel for those who don't have the time or do not like DIY as it is a way to audio nirvana for cheap! There is a huge disparity in high end audio. There is no 'middle class.' And there should be. It seems that the only other path are headphones, hence the proliferation of that industry.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 19 Dec 2016, 07:01 pm
Hidden Inflation, The internet, used gear online at the touch of a button... Well it all changed the landscape in this case over 10 to 20 years period.

Along with lack of education, and desire to DIY a lot of stuff in audio.

I am in this so called "Millennial" generation, and I can tell you first hand most have no clue, don't want a clue, and really will never have a clue how much time, and money they waste on items, and or services that will be useless to them in 24 to 48 months.

Key to getting "High end Hifi" back is to people realizing value much like classic cars, or European imports. Cheap is not exactly cheap for an example an IPHONE is WAY overpriced at this point in my opinion as it should be street price around 199. But I can argue a classic Threshold amp is way undervalued for 800!

Fact is not only do most people not have the time, the money, or the patience to learn about and experience this type of hobby, but they are limited to SPACE, and environment which they can even go, and just rock out for hours on end with a 10,000 to 50,000 dollar stereo system anyway.

Plus the ergonomics, and efficiency of big systems is very very difficult to sell today. Whether you need to have a cleaned, and stored Vinyl collection taking up a wall somewhere, or teach somebody how to download, or rip high resolution audio on software that can take you several hours at a time... Your going to have a difficult time proving it's worth all this to the average Joe especially today with the basic options available.

So in the end what is the point?

Headphones make most happy anyway, and honestly MP3 in the car or off the phone where they will get most of the time to listen works well enough.

Having full blown expensive home theaters, and overpriced 2 channel might be a relic which people one day will pay for classics much like a 1961 Ferrari, but will it be back where we have stereo shops on the corner dedicated to this craft again?

Seems for some reason overseas in Asia, and Europe they thrive a bit more on this nostalgia and for whatever reason have the new money to support it, but in the U.S. it will be difficult to get back there I have a feeling.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 19 Dec 2016, 07:06 pm
Not to steal the thread....

The car wax industry is doing fine.  Actually, like the audio industry, it has striated into levels of quality, going from lo-end / mid-fi (original, and still available Simonize, and basic Turtle Wax), to high-end (Meguiers, Mothers,...), to exotica, some costing into the hundreds of dollars (Zymol, Pinnacle, Wolfgang), to even the ultra-exotics (polymer coatings and nano-ceramic particles.)  Take a look at a site like autogeek.net if you want to see who uses the upper end stuff.

Yeah, the love of cars (and keeping them clean) will never die! I just spend $130 or so on car detailing products during Chemical Guys 30% off black friday sale. Their top of the line paste wax goes for $2500. Their regular line of products is decent value though, especially if you wait for sales, you can get product for about 1/2 the price of similar local in-store purchase options. If you have a few friends you can split gallons of product and save a good bit of $.

An aside, I do think the new polymer paint sealers are pretty cool, easy to use and not that expensive... have not tried ceramic coatings yet though, apparently the best ones require a polish before applying and are intended for professional use. Polymers last 6-12 months though and aren't any more difficult to apply vs liquid waxes so I'll probably stick to sealing 2x/yr and using liquid carnuba every couple months.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Mag on 20 Dec 2016, 03:51 am
Using my Model T speakers in an unconventional manor. I know that the reflected image seems to be projecting off the front wall. So I imagined the idea could be expanded on but I'm not able to experiment due to limited space.

If the idea works it could change how stereo speakers are set up in a larger room, and not confine the imaging to just the sweet spot. Would it rejuvenate interest in Hi-Fi, I don't know but may have a broader application then I am able to imagine, possibly gaming. :smoke:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Folsom on 20 Dec 2016, 04:44 am
The fact that it will dominate any room isn't helpful.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 20 Dec 2016, 06:08 am
Yeah, the author of that article has been obsolete for the 10 years, and rightly so. There's a new type of audiophile that doesn't derive their information from a customer service rep at a B&M store -- they get it the same way we do -- from the internet through forums like audiocircle. There are tons of lurkers who research and learn from our mistakes and successes, but you'd never know they exist. Someone is buying good gear. That's how the internet dealers are staying in business. So if the obsolete dude wants to stay relevant and continue with his passion of educating people about all things audio, he needs to join AC. We'd love to pick his brain. Maybe one of his grandchildren could show him how to log on.   

I think you should show a bit more respect to "obsolete dude".  He spent decades gaining experience and trying to carefully guide customers towards better purchases, most likely at substandard pay, because he loved the industry, his job, and his customers.  And now you want him to just join an internet forum in what little time he has left - or in his retirement - and give you advice for free?

I think that's all part of the systematic devaluing of the sales professional in the US market.  What people seems to be saying with their wallet is that they value the lowest cost, most convenient sales experience over service (i.e. advice and after sales assistance).  It's a downward spiral : we place less importance on it, we get less of it, and then we have the gall to complain & proclaim the death of B&M!

And part of the fuel for this is the rise of "internet experts", "forums" and online reviews, which is a cheap but poor substitute.

Personally I'd more value - and be willing to pay for - the assistance of someone who has decades of actual experience, is face to face with me with a reputation to uphold, and can make a custom recommendation to me vs. "online experts" shilling either their own product purchases or regurgitating comments from a handful of "netizens" or paid off audio "journalists".

I'll give you one prime example : we keep a famous monitor speaker at the store which is on every audio journalists "best" list - and which people parrot endlessly as such an excellent speaker.  We get requests for it and I was tired of people thinking I was trying to "switch and bait" them by telling them that it is in fact a crap speaker - the "bose" of the audiophile world.  So now I just let them come in and listen to it & say nothing.  Invariably they ask to listen to an alternative, and when they do, they end up buying the alternative, unprompted by me.  When they want to know more, I explain.  To date over more than 2 years we've sold a grand total of zero of this vaunted speaker.  But you would never know that from forums and hifi reviews. It's always amusing to see peoples faces : "this thing kinda sucks - but I don't understand, everyone says it's great!".

I've personally gained a lot of useful information on AC - and hopefully imparted some as well.  But there is no substitute for real experience - both from sales professionals and your own (i.e. trying and listening).  This experience is valuable and worth paying for.

What happened to Hi-Fi in the US: people don't value or care about high quality sales & service, and there's been a race to the bottom in terms of sound quality for the sake of economy and convenience, at least in the US.  This is why first the big boxes, and now the internet aka Amazon have taken over.  I believe this has happened to a much lesser extent in other countries, so hopefully we won't export that trend as well.  To a much larger degree in Europe and Asia I think they more highly value hifi AND the smaller independent sales outlets and professionals. Have you seen how many more hifi shops there are per capita in the UK, for example? They still develop and value sales relationships.  They have "their guy" whom they've come to trust and rely on. These markets, more so than the US, are what's keeping the high end audio market afloat. 

How to address this in the US?  Ironically for the high end I think manufacturers need to concentrate their efforts on LESS locations and focus on a shorter list of select brick and mortar stores and makes these "centers of excellence" for their brands vs trying to spread themselves thinner across more internet and big box stores in the desperate attempt to reach more customers.  It's always a sign to me that they've given up when I see famous audiophile brands go to Best Buy - even if it's the somewhat better Magnolia (at a few of which I've actually found knowledgeable sales people). And Amazon?  Total surrender.

People who value face to face quality sales professionalism will seek these places out and make the greater effort to go to them. When your looking to spend thousands, that's what you SHOULD do. Those who are a bit more lazy : phone consultations and mail order to these B&Ms.

Result : the high end audio companies can therefore devote more time and attention to cultivating a smaller number of channels and see that they are successful.  Doing so means the B&M store can also have more volume and be a more sustainable business.  Eventually if all goes well, this may eventually allow more space for more local stores to thrive. But the way things are going now, I think it's time to consolidate and reinforce the best vs spreading out to the worst!

Let's face it : in the US, high end audio is more than ever a luxury hobby for a diminishing and aging client base.  Do as other luxury goods makers do : focus on select higher end physical sales outlets.  Those places need to be open to cultivating a younger less affluent customer base, but focus on surviving by catering to their base.

Sorry guys : "internet audiophiles" brought them on themselves. They think they know everything, and it's price, but know the value of nothing. Enjoy now stumbling around in the dark - you won't even notice the lights are off!

How's that for a good ol fashioned rant?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Dec 2016, 07:42 am
I can't get past Marc Silver's sloppy reasoning, bad grammar and misspellings. For example:
para 4 – ‘Thornes”?
para 8 – no such thing as ‘square wave rise time’.
para 9 – ‘Sal Marnatz’? (Saul Marantz), ‘Stu Hegaman’ (Hegeman).
para 10 – ‘Marchisoto’ (Marchisotto), ‘Dahquist’ (Dahlquist).
para 17 – ‘there isn’t (aren’t) enough people….that (who) love the hobby….and (are?) willing, etc., etc.
para 18 – ‘people that (who) want music…’
parap 19 – p-mount cartridges date from the 80’s not 90's (Audio Technica)
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 20 Dec 2016, 10:42 am

I think that's all part of the systematic devaluing of the sales professional in the US market.  What people seems to be saying with their wallet is that they value the lowest cost, most convenient sales experience over service (i.e. advice and after sales assistance).  It's a downward spiral : we place less importance on it, we get less of it, and then we have the gall to complain & proclaim the death of B&M!

And part of the fuel for this is the rise of "internet experts", "forums" and online reviews, which is a cheap but poor substitute.

Personally I'd more value - and be willing to pay for - the assistance of someone who has decades of actual experience, is face to face with me with a reputation to uphold, and can make a custom recommendation to me vs. "online experts" shilling either their own product purchases or regurgitating comments from a handful of "netizens" or paid off audio "journalists".


How's that for a good ol fashioned rant?


I worked as a sales person at a big box store when I was ~19-21, I was one of the best sales people in the nation, won 3rd prize in a nationwide sales contest... and was around when there were two B&M HiFi stores on Boulder's Pearl Street. The sales professional you value is rare and you're really not that likely to luck into meeting one. You're MUCH more likely to meet someone with less overall experience than you have who will try to sell you whatever they make the most commission on.

Also, where's the empathy for the folks who simply can't afford to go drop a bunch of cash at a dealer? Or know enough that they don't value a sales professional? Now these folks have the opportunity to buy gear for much less money by going with direct-sale companies. 

The fact there's a lot less B&M stores than there used to be is more a result of economic conditions, people who have the income still generally shop at B&M stores but the unfortunate truth is there was this huge crash in '07-'08 and we haven't recovered, and income disparity is at ridiculous, unsustainable levels. I heard about 60 people control 50% of the entire world's wealth. Our middle class isn't doing as well as it used to be. Most of what you rant about is a result of this, and not the fact people don't want to go to a dealer where they can actually see and hear stuff before they buy it.  The truth is dealers make more than manufacturers on gear these days, they are middle men who offer a very valuable service but it's not cheap and there's no doubt that a direct-sale company can offer to sell you a similar product for 1/3rd the price.   

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: James Tanner on 20 Dec 2016, 11:53 am
HI Folks,

I should point out that there is not as much savings in direct sales as one might assume. 

I know a number of direct sales companies and have discussed the 'cost of sales' on the balance sheet.  To run a 'successful' direct sales company takes a lot of money on the sales side.  Advertising and promotional costs run much higher than a typical B&M market strategy because you have to get your name out there and establish a quality reputation constantly.  One of the ways many of the direct companies save manufacturing costs is they go 'off shore' and are essentially only marketing companies not manufacturers. This approach has in the past been a good saving but that is changing with the cost of transportation and the rise of the middle class in these countries. Just because something appears to be a real value (cheaper) than another product is not always true as the quality of that value is unknown. I think its important that we try and keep our jobs here in North America and hopefully enough customers recognize the reality of this race to the bottom and loosing our manufacturing base is contributing to  the loss of our middle class.

I do feel the lack of qualified sales folks though as I find with the internet and direct phone calls I am in much more communication with our customers and some of the feedback I get from things they are told by sales people about our product is almost laughable. So I get the feeling that when customers do go into their local hifi shop and find they know more than the sales person about a specific product all respect is lost. The biggest complaint I get from our customers is they ask to hear a Bryston product and are told NO - this is better - bad move!

The race to the bottom and disposable products is a real concern of mine though and I fear we are past the tipping point.

james

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Early B. on 20 Dec 2016, 11:56 am
I think you should show a bit more respect to "obsolete dude".  He spent decades gaining experience and trying to carefully guide customers towards better purchases, most likely at substandard pay, because he loved the industry, his job, and his customers.  And now you want him to just join an internet forum in what little time he has left - or in his retirement - and give you advice for free?

"Obsolete" (his words, not mine) dude's monetary value to a consumer is zero, and that's what his advice is worth. I'm sure the guy has a lot of knowledge, but on forums like AC, we can literally converse with legendary audio designers, acoustics professionals, speaker manufacturers, etc. and gain firsthand knowledge. Obsolete dude can't compete with that. For example, if I have a question or technical issue with any of my gear, including cables, power conditioners, and isolation devices, I can email the guy who designed it and get a response within 24 hours, and it's free.
 

   
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: davidavdavid on 20 Dec 2016, 01:27 pm
As brick and mortar HiFi shops fall more and more off the radar, folks in the know are members of and frequenting online forums and groups to learn as much as they can about a particular product prior to purchase. It comes as no surprise that online sites: Audio Advisor and Music Direct are becoming increasingly popular. Having traveled internationally and popped into more than a few shops in the UK/EU/Asia, I can tell you that the quality of salesmanship and product knowledge has decreased in relative terms. Let's bear in mind that with the Internet so much product and service information is now readily available to consumers, so its not like the salespeople are the gatekeepers anymore.

Having re-settled in the States to Central Ohio, I have learned first hand how slim the pickings are when it comes to shops and how I am going to have to rely for the most part on sites like Audio Advisor and Music Direct. I have also seen with the rising prices, that there is a benefit, if all criteria is met, of dealing with a product manufacturer who sells direct without a dealer network. Subsequently the prices are lower and the consumer comes away with a product they deem to be of equal or better quality and decidedly less expensive than a product laden with the costs of advertising and a dealer network.

Growing up in NYC, in one day for the price of a subway token, I could visit  Stereo Exchange, Innovative Audio, Lyric HiFi, Sound by Singer. I had 4 top notch shops with fellows (there were no women) who knew what they were talking about and would take the time to properly demonstrate gear. These past 4 years living in London, England was a bit of an eye-opener. Although there are a fair number of shops over there, London has morphed, the shops are not easy if at all possible to get to in one day, and they are not particularly subtle about their agendas. Mind you, if you think prices on this side of the Atlantic are high, well, that's another rant entirely :)
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: gene9p on 20 Dec 2016, 03:20 pm
yup..I miss the walks to those stores as well as 6th Avenue Electronics and even Harvey's. You could spend a day in the city going to those shops and nothing else. Sometimes when the Rangers are playing an afternoon game I walk from Grand Central to MSG and wonder where did they all go.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 20 Dec 2016, 03:43 pm
HI Folks,

I should point out that there is not as much savings in direct sales as one might assume. 

I know a number of direct sales companies and have discussed the 'cost of sales' on the balance sheet.  To run a 'successful' direct sales company takes a lot of money on the sales side.  Advertising and promotional costs run much higher than a typical B&M market strategy because you have to get your name out there and establish a quality reputation constantly.  One of the ways many of the direct companies save manufacturing costs is they go 'off shore' and are essentially only marketing companies not manufacturers. This approach has in the past been a good saving but that is changing with the cost of transportation and the rise of the middle class in these countries. Just because something appears to be a real value (cheaper) than another product is not always true as the quality of that value is unknown. I think its important that we try and keep our jobs here in North America and hopefully enough customers recognize the reality of this race to the bottom and loosing our manufacturing base is contributing to  the loss of our middle class.

james

I don't think that applies to any of the direct-sale companies here on AC. At least, it doesn't to me. I spend very little on ads and promotions, and everything is made by me. Also, dealer-sale businesses often outsource too, like PS Audio and many others. The one thing I'll agree with is the sales end of direct-sale businesses is half the work, it's often underestimated and it's often handeled poorly. Running a direct-sale business is a great way to appreciate dealers and what they do, and going forward I'll be starting a company that sells to dealers.

And James, you don't really have to worry about competition w/ direct-sale companies like Odyssey, etc. because the markets are pretty much totally separate. Products overlap but VERY few people cross-shop traditional dealer-offered goods with direct-sale goods. Some do, but it's VERY rare. The big thing is that the folks who buy from dealers have more and more cash so I think it's wise to keep up with the market and offer them products that fit their budget. Bryston has the name to make a big coffee-table sized amplifier for $100k+ ;)
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 22 Dec 2016, 03:05 am

I worked as a sales person at a big box store when I was ~19-21, I was one of the best sales people in the nation, won 3rd prize in a nationwide sales contest... and was around when there were two B&M HiFi stores on Boulder's Pearl Street. The sales professional you value is rare and you're really not that likely to luck into meeting one. You're MUCH more likely to meet someone with less overall experience than you have who will try to sell you whatever they make the most commission on.

Also, where's the empathy for the folks who simply can't afford to go drop a bunch of cash at a dealer? Or know enough that they don't value a sales professional? Now these folks have the opportunity to buy gear for much less money by going with direct-sale companies. 

The fact there's a lot less B&M stores than there used to be is more a result of economic conditions, people who have the income still generally shop at B&M stores but the unfortunate truth is there was this huge crash in '07-'08 and we haven't recovered, and income disparity is at ridiculous, unsustainable levels. I heard about 60 people control 50% of the entire world's wealth. Our middle class isn't doing as well as it used to be. Most of what you rant about is a result of this, and not the fact people don't want to go to a dealer where they can actually see and hear stuff before they buy it.  The truth is dealers make more than manufacturers on gear these days, they are middle men who offer a very valuable service but it's not cheap and there's no doubt that a direct-sale company can offer to sell you a similar product for 1/3rd the price.

Lots of commonly received misinformation here.

Sales :

- Salespeople WILL have LOTS more experience than you - that's what they do as a living, hours every day for years. You dabble in it in your free time.

They don't have to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING - they may not even know everything about that specific item you're looking for.  There's a lot of changing product to keep up on.  The most important thing is that they have a good understanding of the important things of the product they carry and whether it's a suitable match for you and your situation. 

That is, if you care to ask & listen of course.  If you go in there with a "I know everything" attitude, they will either just try to sell you what you think you know so much about & want, or they will try to move on.  Because that kind of person rarely buys anyway and isn't worth spending a lot of time on.  Which bring me to #2

- Salespeople by nature are not trying to sell you what makes the most commission, or even what's most expensive.  If they like you, and feel that you value their experience and opinion, and that's theres a good probability of a sale, they will try to sell you what they think will make you most happy.  You don't make commissions on returned items.  And it's bad for a long term relationship for more sales.  And sales people are human beings as well and capable of empathy.

The lazy sales person will try to sell you what's EASIEST to close : $10 with high probability is better than $50 of very low probability. And it's less risk to them : if you don't like it, it's YOUR fault for wanting it, not theirs for recommending something better that you might not like.

Empathy :

I don't have empathy for people who buy things they can't afford, and much less waste peoples time knowing they can't and / or won't spend.  These good are "wants", not "needs".  And if they don't value sales professionals because they think they know everything, they should just buy browse online and don't "showroom" dealers.

Economy :

As for "much less money direct" : see Tanner's response.  There's a false sense of value here.  Most of the time better things cost more, and higher end things have higher sales costs, whether you do it in-house or through dealerships. Just because you put a tarted up face plate on POS does not make it less of a POS. Im thinking for example Emotiva here.  Sorry Emotiva fan boys.

A lot of B&M A/V stores went under because they entered home theater too heavily, and when the real estate bubble burst, people couldn't just roll high end home theaters into their home mortgages.  Between that and taking on too much inventory and debt.  The more specialist 2 channel shops with more prudent business practices were able to ride it out.

Is their more income disparity now than 10 years ago. Probably.  But that doesn't address my key contention about the de-valuing of the sales professional in the USA.  This had already been well underway many years before the crash.  Not to take anything away from manufactures - particularly good ones - and all that's involved to make good product, to adequately support it, and to be successful.  But in today's even more crowded electronics market with even more players getting involved from around the world, even in the boutique world of hifi, the challenge more than ever is to get product in front of people and have capable and qualified people with the right relationships to sell it.  Because at the end of the day it's still a people relationship business : people buy people first, then the product.  With internet shopping many people have lost sight of that, but it's still true, and even more in "high end" retail sales.  And because those channels and talent is becoming MORE scarce, it should be considered MORE valuable. And no, that doesn't come cheap.

I'm surprised Dave, having been in sales yourself, that these things particularly to you are not more obvious!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 22 Dec 2016, 03:11 am
As brick and mortar HiFi shops fall more and more off the radar, folks in the know are members of and frequenting online forums and groups to learn as much as they can about a particular product prior to purchase. It comes as no surprise that online sites: Audio Advisor and Music Direct are becoming increasingly popular. Having traveled internationally and popped into more than a few shops in the UK/EU/Asia, I can tell you that the quality of salesmanship and product knowledge has decreased in relative terms. Let's bear in mind that with the Internet so much product and service information is now readily available to consumers, so its not like the salespeople are the gatekeepers anymore.

Having re-settled in the States to Central Ohio, I have learned first hand how slim the pickings are when it comes to shops and how I am going to have to rely for the most part on sites like Audio Advisor and Music Direct. I have also seen with the rising prices, that there is a benefit, if all criteria is met, of dealing with a product manufacturer who sells direct without a dealer network. Subsequently the prices are lower and the consumer comes away with a product they deem to be of equal or better quality and decidedly less expensive than a product laden with the costs of advertising and a dealer network.

Growing up in NYC, in one day for the price of a subway token, I could visit  Stereo Exchange, Innovative Audio, Lyric HiFi, Sound by Singer. I had 4 top notch shops with fellows (there were no women) who knew what they were talking about and would take the time to properly demonstrate gear. These past 4 years living in London, England was a bit of an eye-opener. Although there are a fair number of shops over there, London has morphed, the shops are not easy if at all possible to get to in one day, and they are not particularly subtle about their agendas. Mind you, if you think prices on this side of the Atlantic are high, well, that's another rant entirely :)

Im surprised : you preface about declining B&M, buying online and how great forums are, then reminisce about the golden days of visiting NYC hifi shops (all of which you name still being in business).  Seems inconsistent / illogical.  If you liked visiting those B&M's : why don't you do business with them?  AA & MD are dealers as well as with the same margins but lower cost structures.  Why not buy from those NYC dealers who you spent so much time at (and they with you), particularly if you couldn't afford it then, but now can?   

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 22 Dec 2016, 03:23 am
"Obsolete" (his words, not mine) dude's monetary value to a consumer is zero, and that's what his advice is worth. I'm sure the guy has a lot of knowledge, but on forums like AC, we can literally converse with legendary audio designers, acoustics professionals, speaker manufacturers, etc. and gain firsthand knowledge. Obsolete dude can't compete with that. For example, if I have a question or technical issue with any of my gear, including cables, power conditioners, and isolation devices, I can email the guy who designed it and get a response within 24 hours, and it's free.

Don't follow : you say that you're sure the guy has a lot of knowledge, but that his monetary value & advice to the consumer is zero.  How does that make sense? 

Do you really think the advice and knowledge of the "legendary audio designers etc" is not potentially subject to limitations of experience and subject to bias, possibly ignorance as well?  E.g. I've heard a "legendary" cartridge manufacturer says that's what's most important for LP playback naturally is the cartridge, not the table / arm / phone preamp etc.  Seem like good balanced advice to you?

The product designer / engineer knows best about his product?  You'd hope so, but often they don't have experience of it's use in the field and in customers hands.  That sticky end of the information chain often comes from.......you guessed it..........dealers.  They're the front line of customer service issues. What I find even more ironic is the customer service requests we get from customer who buy online : they can't get good information, but, you know, we're dealers for the same product, so how about we resolve their problem even if they didn't buy it from us? That's really true - happens every week.

And do you really think the "legendary designers" have the time or inclination to deal with every question / concern from every tom, dick and harry out there - many times who's problems arise from gross ignorance or negligence?  How do you expect them to improve or develop new product if they spend all the time answering those questions? Isn't it a bit selfish to assume they should?

It's time to grow up folks.  I know an internet forum is speaking to the wrong crowd about non-internet realities.  But that "reality check" is useful none the less. Support those you should financially and be the better person.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 22 Dec 2016, 03:26 am
I can't get past Marc Silver's sloppy reasoning, bad grammar and misspellings. For example:
para 4 – ‘Thornes”?
para 8 – no such thing as ‘square wave rise time’.
para 9 – ‘Sal Marnatz’? (Saul Marantz), ‘Stu Hegaman’ (Hegeman).
para 10 – ‘Marchisoto’ (Marchisotto), ‘Dahquist’ (Dahlquist).
para 17 – ‘there isn’t (aren’t) enough people….that (who) love the hobby….and (are?) willing, etc., etc.
para 18 – ‘people that (who) want music…’
parap 19 – p-mount cartridges date from the 80’s not 90's (Audio Technica)

Give em a break Russell : if he were Shakespeare or Einstein, do you think he'd be selling hifi?  The overall gist of what he saying and it's validity is what's important.  Forest for trees folks.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: dB Cooper on 22 Dec 2016, 04:05 pm
Live music costs a lot cheaper than even a mid-fi audio system -- an average season subscription to a symphony orchestra/chamber series/opera/jazz series is around $200 for decent seats. Multiply that by 3, and you still end up paying only about $600 per season. Vs. say $5K for a mid-fi system, or $15-30K for a hi-end two-channel system made up of the likes of Bryston etc. Not saying it's better than owning a SOTA system at home. But with all these observations posted above, is it any wonder hi-end is thinning out?

It IS better than owning a SOTA system at home- if you follow the premise, as I do, that the purpose of 'hi fi' (I dislike the term 'high end' and its condescending cousin 'mid-fi') is to reproduce music as realistically as possible in the home. There is a cello player, Vincent Belanger, who has visited the last couple Capital audiofests, and gives live-vs-recorded demos amongst other things. The most expensive systems in the show- costing well into six figures- can't do it 100%. At some point it becomes (for the consumer) more about conspicuous consumption, and for the manufacturer, more about selling a few megabuck systems every year vs a number of reasonably priced systems (it's probably less work). I just know that I put together a pretty musical system in 1971- when I was a teenager, on lawn cutting money- for the equivalent of $2500 in 2016 money. And I didn't do it because some fast talking B&M salesperson blew smoke up my ass- I did it because the slightly older kid next door did the samething and I was exposed to quality sound as a result. So it doesnt depend entirely on a B&M infrastructure.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 22 Dec 2016, 07:43 pm

I'm surprised Dave, having been in sales yourself, that these things particularly to you are not more obvious!

Well... I have a ton of sales experience and was one of the nation's top salespeople at a national chain big-box store. So I'd say my version of the truth is much more accurate than yours.

Your version is what a good salesperson should do, but the great majority of sales people are NOT good. Your chances of finding a "sales professional" as you describe is slim, unfortunately.

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: R. Daneel on 23 Dec 2016, 11:22 am
http://www.dagogo.com/what-happened-to-hifi

I can't say I agree with every statement in this article. HIFI industry has always been a place where many, many "camouflage operators" have flourished and it has been this way since the beginning.

People who are interested in HIFI for the sake of audio alone will always be well informed. As a historical irony, the cheaper the item is, the more informed the customer is.

The real problem lies in HIFI manufacturers. It's easier than ever to make something. Whether it's good or bad, they don't take any responsibility for it because for one, others are doing it and two, they outsource the parts from OEM so they don't even have to "know" the principles on this these components work and consequently, how to repair them.

If you were to buy a Volkswagen Golf in early 1980s, you'd be invited to their facility and be given a tour of it by one of the engineers working there. If you were to buy a DIK Đurđenovac oak furniture, they would deliver it to your house, bring it inside, assemble everything, polish it and then help you move it where you want it. Today, Volkswagen will deny you service after a catastrophis and impossible failure after just 10.000 km and you'll get an instruction booklet to assemble the furniture yourself. Naturally, it will be translated from who-knows-what language by a monkey.

It is the way of the world, not just the HIFI industry!

Cheers!
Antun
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: R. Daneel on 23 Dec 2016, 11:32 am
There's one other thing. HIFI industry is not exactly the type of industry where the customer himself is a professional.

Take construction/engineering industry. A salesperson can't expect to convince a professional engineer that PVC pipes are superior to PE pipes in terms of their hydraulic properties. It is because a professional engineer will most likely know a lot more about it than the salesperson. So in the end, the salespeple in this industry are usually engineers themselves.

HIFI is hardly a thing to make a living out of so many of the salespeople do this par-time. So he could be a baker working at a bakery during the day and sell HIFI in the afternoon. As unbelievable as it may sound, many high-end brands are represented by dealers like these where I live. You can't expect a baker to know much about it now can you?

But as I said before, the real problem happens when the manufacturer stops caring this baker is costing them sales due to his ignorance. Then the customer is left in a rather miserable position.

Cheers!
Antun
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: vegasdave on 9 Jan 2017, 11:54 am
Nice rant dB - love the passion  :thumb:

For me as good as headphones are they just are not my main listening preference.

I have tried all or most of the top quality headphones as we manufacture an excellent headphone amp - the BHA-1. But for me the recreation of a 3-dimensional sound stage with instruments placed correctly in space is my priority and try as I may I just have not been able to achieve that with the use of headphones.

A pair of the Bryston Mini A speakers at $1200 and a nice integrated amplifier and source will do this kind of 3D presentation so for me I would prefer this setup in a small room over headphones.

james



i have a low tolerance for headphones...there's a headphone jack in my bp6 and i have yet to use it. speakers are so much more satisfying. i don't need to take my music everywhere i go. i think it's just a fad, really.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 12:02 pm
i have a low tolerance for headphones...there's a headphone jack in my bp6 and i have yet to use it. speakers are so much more satisfying. i don't need to take my music everywhere i go. i think it's just a fad, really.

Completely agree.

HPs are immune to room acoustics. But then the spatial realism is gone with HPs.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 9 Jan 2017, 01:15 pm
In the golden age of audio (1950-1980) stereo (as we used to call it) was the dominant techie pastime.  No really entertaining alternatives existed.  Now a myriad of options exist to compete with audio on a technical basis for our free time.  This explains why so many here have IT backgrounds and are into the latest digital technologies, especially relating to sources.  We've gotten very addicted to stimulation, especially multiple sensory stimulation, so audio loses out.  And as the average audiophile has gotten older we've gotten addicted to convenience, thus remote controls, downloads, mail-order/online shopping, and digital over vinyl.  The saving grace among the world's privileged has been our obsession with being entertained. 

So if the trend continues, invest in multi-sensory, convenient, digitally based high-tech entertainment.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 01:29 pm
^ Multi-sensory is the trend -- even movie theatres are into it, with wrap-around screens, chairs that rock, VR-eyepieces, earphones.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: timind on 9 Jan 2017, 02:16 pm
Well... I have a ton of sales experience and was one of the nation's top salespeople at a national chain big-box store. So I'd say my version of the truth is much more accurate than yours.

Your version is what a good salesperson should do, but the great majority of sales people are NOT good. Your chances of finding a "sales professional" as you describe is slim, unfortunately.

Well said. In my experience, jarcher is out of touch with current audio sales people. My last experience with an in-store high end audio sales person was less than stellar. He was poorly informed about any products other than those in the store.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: srb on 9 Jan 2017, 02:31 pm
My last experience with an in-store high end audio sales person was less than stellar. He was poorly informed about any products other than those in the store.

My last experience in a high-end audio store was abysmal.  With cursory reading of available manufacturer sales info I unbelievably knew more than the "salesman" going in.  He couldn't answer my questions about things I couldn't find and seemed disinterested in doing any further research.

The component had not yet hit his shelves, so when I suggested he take my name and number and give me a call when it came in, he said "We expect it maybe within a month but it would probably be better for you to call in from time to time and see if it's in".

You have to be freaking kidding me!  A solid qualified sales lead from an already 3 time customer and .....

Steve
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 Jan 2017, 03:59 pm
My last experience in a high-end audio store was abysmal.  With cursory reading of available manufacturer sales info I unbelievably knew more than the "salesman" going in.  He couldn't answer my questions about things I couldn't find and seemed disinterested in doing any further research.

The component had not yet hit his shelves, so when I suggested he take my name and number and give me a call when it came in, he said "We expect it maybe within a month but it would probably be better for you to call in from time to time and see if it's in".

You have to be freaking kidding me!  A solid qualified sales lead from an already 3 time customer and .....

Steve

That's worth talking to the owner about.

I had a similar episode at Gebhardt VW Boulder. I ask to check out the Golf R... "We don't have any, the '17s should be in soon". Me: "I need a car now, mine got totaled, can you get one from another dealer?". Her: "You can call around."  No... I can walk out and never come back, and tell everyone how much you suck.  :lol:


Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: macrojack on 9 Jan 2017, 04:00 pm
In my opinion it has been close to two years since the second shoe dropped from the high end audio carcass. It will hit the floor within 10 more years. The polarization of our marketplace has been idling so far. Expect it to accelerate like crazy beginning later this month.
One of the issues involved in keeping our hobby from the mainstream is our recognition that the experience is ultimately subjective while our calculus is all based on absolutes. Because a reviewer or a small group of hobbyists concur on the place an item can rightfully claim within the hierarchy of competing performers, we then remove subjectivity from consideration and anoint it with an absolute status. It then becomes a benchmark against which newer options are measured absolutely. This house of cards leads us off into a wilderness that appears, quite rightly, to be obsessive and out of touch to non-believers.
Another point to grasp here is that within 10 years an overwhelmingly large percentage of current audiophiles will be leaving the hobby due to death or infirmity. Many of these people are the leadership. Inspiration comes from us geezers. Without us, the impetus that until now has propped us up will be gone. Newcomers and the 20% or so of us who are under 60, will be distracted from the "new" market by a glut of legendary and otherwise desirable used gear landing on eBay and in estate sales.

I suspect, however, that there will be desperation, hunger and camaraderie where we now have greed, selfishness and isolation.

Perhaps young people feel they have been disqualified from the American Dream and must remain mobile and adaptive going forward. For people my age, I foresee a lot of financial pressure centered around food and energy issues. Remember in all your considerations that two things which do not go together well are mortgage and retirement. This is a real issue. The topic of this article is of no lasting consequence.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Phil A on 9 Jan 2017, 04:14 pm
In my opinion it has been close to two years since the second shoe dropped from the high end audio carcass. It will hit the floor within 10 more years. The polarization of our marketplace has been idling so far. Expect it to accelerate like crazy beginning later this month.
One of the issues involved in keeping our hobby from the mainstream is our recognition that the experience is ultimately subjective while our calculus is all based on absolutes. Because a reviewer or a small group of hobbyists concur on the place an item can rightfully claim within the hierarchy of competing performers, we then remove subjectivity from consideration and anoint it with an absolute status. It then becomes a benchmark against which newer options are measured absolutely. This house of cards leads us off into a wilderness that appears, quite rightly, to be obsessive and out of touch to non-believers.
Another point to grasp here is that within 10 years an overwhelmingly large percentage of current audiophiles will be leaving the hobby due to death or infirmity. Many of these people are the leadership. Inspiration comes from us geezers. Without us, the impetus that until now has propped us up will be gone. Newcomers and the 20% or so of us who are under 60, will be distracted from the "new" market by a glut of legendary and otherwise desirable used gear landing on eBay and in estate sales.

I suspect, however, that there will be desperation, hunger and camaraderie where we now have greed, selfishness and isolation.

Perhaps young people feel they have been disqualified from the American Dream and must remain mobile and adaptive going forward. For people my age, I foresee a lot of financial pressure centered around food and energy issues. Remember in all your considerations that two things which do not go together well are mortgage and retirement. This is a real issue. The topic of this article is of no lasting consequence.

So true - http://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/baby-boomers-home-audio-purchasing-power-fades.html
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 04:27 pm
macrojack
"I suspect, however, that there will be desperation, hunger and camaraderie where we now have greed, selfishness and isolation."

Well this shows especially since the time frame we are talking about is in the last 3 to 4 years. Look at Audiogon... These guys went off the DEEP end protecting their fee's, and even now DELETE the pricing after auctions sell as to not allow anybody to know the going market prices so you gotta pay them another fee for the blue book values which mean nothing anyway accept to dealers that give you the lowest markup for trade in value.

Now they want $150 just to MAYBE find somebody willing to pay 10,000 for a pair of speakers. They increased the risk, hence increasing the price to consumer because not just dealers are upping some of the pricing to ridiculous levels to cover more costs in ADs, and shipping, but so is Joe schmo.

We are just seeing the beginnings of all this playing out. It was like when people decided it was okay to pay $2.25 for a premium 16 ounce cup of coffee, now they figure why not $4.25?

What I love is with Fed Ex I use to ship 300 lb pairs of speakers from one end of the map to the other at around $120 - $150 with standard $1000 in insurance.

Forget it now its tripled in under 10 years .. About $350.00 for the same service, oh and oil is about $60 bucks cheaper, but transportation costs have not come down 1 penny!

Greed will just kill the system period, and high end is no different because it's not a need for a $4.00 coffee, or a pair of $4000.00 speakers that cost nearly 500 to ship now.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: srb on 9 Jan 2017, 04:39 pm
That's worth talking to the owner about.

They had 5 reviews on Yelp over the past 3 years - 4 5-star and 1 4-star.  Maybe my previous purchases of $250, $600 and $1300 just weren't enough to stimulate interest (which were all "we're bored but we'll do you a favor" sales).

They sold McIntosh and Magneplanar among others and I never could escape the snooty holier-than-thou attitude.  They were the only surviving audio showroom in town beside Best Buy/Magnolia, but they closed their doors last year after 36 years in business.

It probably was because of the already discussed reasons of economy and new audio customer mentality, but their shit attitude must have at least helped fuel their demise.

Steve
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 04:39 pm

We are just seeing the beginnings of all this playing out. It was like when people decided it was okay to pay $2.25 for a premium 16 ounce cup of coffee, now they figure why not $4.25?

What I love is with Fed Ex I use to ship 300 lb pairs of speakers from one end of the map to the other at around $120 - $150 with standard $1000 in insurance.

Forget it now its tripled in under 10 years .. About $350.00 for the same service, oh and oil is about $60 bucks cheaper, but transportation costs have not come down 1 penny!

Greed will just kill the system period, and high end is no different because it's not a need for a $4.00 coffee, or a pair of $4000.00 speakers that cost nearly 500 to ship now. Audio, high end especially is not immune.

I'm not quite sure how you expect wages to go up. Do you want to work for the same salary year after year? Will you cut your wages to what you earned 10 years ago so I don't have to pay higher prices?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 04:52 pm
I'm not quite sure how you expect wages to go up. Do you want to work for the same salary year after year? Will you cut your wages to what you earned 10 years ago so I don't have to pay higher prices?

Exactly. Inflation is normal. Wage increases are essential for a thriving economy -- it's a good thing, as too many have to work many part-time jobs nowadays to make ends meet. So is a free market economy that's Darwinian -- I support it. Plenty of options out there; shop around.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 04:55 pm
I'm not quite sure how you expect wages to go up. Do you want to work for the same salary year after year? Will you cut your wages to what you earned 10 years ago so I don't have to pay higher prices?

Oh boy.. Typical...  But if what your saying is did my wages increase TRIPLE as all companies around us tripled prices on basic internet services... No than I have no answer for you, because this is obviously not the case.

And if your saying Fed Ex increased paying drivers as much as share prices... sorry to tell you that's not the case either. Maybe they make $5 bucks an hour more now!

But again this had nothing to do with that, however the so called "Audio" community was a fairly self managing force especially online with places like this.

However, once they figured out share prices have to go up in order to keep the peoples confidence with their weak 401ks from jumping out because of dead stock prices... That's why we are where we are, they need continuous growth to the moon, otherwise the system collapses. Again just saying audio is not immune when it happens.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 05:04 pm
Look - when wages go up - the cost of everything goes up. Materials cost more (the cost of the equipment to dig it out of the ground,etc.), the rent goes up and services to run a company cost more.

I'm not saying that just ordinary workers rising wages are the sole reason that costs are going up but it's more the mentality - especially from the top whose compensations have gone through the roof the last few decades.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: srb on 9 Jan 2017, 05:15 pm
In the golden age of audio (1950-1980) stereo (as we used to call it) was the dominant techie pastime.  No really entertaining alternatives existed.  Now a myriad of options exist to compete with audio on a technical basis for our free time.

That's true but it's more than just available time.  There is only so much disposable income to spread around.

Back in the golden age of audio, we had a television that received free programming via antenna.  The only communications bill was the landline telephone.

As time moved on, we had cable and satellite subscription TV.  We then added large wide screen TVs, home theater systems and rentals of HD set top boxes and DVRs.  We added computers (in 2012 it was reported that the average US household had three computers).

We added home networks with Internet modems, Wi-Fi routers and NAS storage.  We added multiple cellphones and tablets to the network.  Many families are paying $200 - $300 in monthly communication and entertainment fees.

We're spending money on smarthome devices like thermostats, video security and lighting.

There are just so many communications, entertainment and home lifestyle devices and services vying for that income that the high-end stereo for many has had to humble up and hunker down.

Steve
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 05:20 pm
charmerci,

Okay... I understand...

Audiogons rent went up so they had to charge 150.00 an AD now vs. 4 bucks 3 years ago... I get it...

They must be in San Francisco? I guess everything there went up like 5000%. So I agree. I guess all those Audiogon employees went from 10 bucks an hour to 100 bucks an our too at the same time to pay those rents... I need to see if they will hire me!

I stand corrected.

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 05:22 pm
charmerci,

Okay... I understand...

Audiogons rent went up so they had to charge 150.00 an AD now vs. 4 bucks 3 years ago... I get it...

They must be in San Francisco? I guess everything there went up like 5000%. So I agree. I guess all those Audiogon employees went from 10 bucks an hour to 100 bucks an our too at the same time to pay those rents... I need to see if they will hire me!

I stand corrected.

Get your sarcasm.

It's capitalism. Audiogon can do what they want for whatever reason they want. They don't need to make you happy.

Let's resume the subject.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 05:26 pm
Get your sarcasm - let's resume the subject.

Agreed... Again I stated something very related to this trend issue with audio currently, and comments made on GREED. I did not try to go into a debate on Keynesian social economics, but I just had to feed a little more rope to see who would hang themselves :duh:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 05:32 pm
Agreed... Again I stated something very related to this EXACT issue with Audio currently, and comments made on GREED. I did not try to go into a debate on Keynesian social economics, but I just had to feed a little more rope to see who would hang themselves :duh:

I'm against greed - but it's a slippery slope. How much is one willing NOT to earn, 100K, million, 100 million? You can't pass laws against it - ultimately. It's a cultural issue.

Did you know that if Bill Gates spent every second picking up individual $20 bills for years, he'd have much less money than he has now?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 05:42 pm
Well much like audio there is "Theory" and there is "Reality".... Certain things work certain things don't. I was simply illustrating how the greed seeps into everything universally, and for different reasons.

But I can tell you this... Guess what the inflation is not because of wage increases. It's far simpler, its not even by choice of "What somebody is willing to pay"...

It's because the amount of LOAN credit available. So when you can buy a 20,000 dollar pair of speakers with a credit card, guess what 20,000 dollar speakers start popping up!

If the Gov. allows an 18 year old with zero work history accept Mcdonalds for 7 bucks an hour to take a student loan for $50,000 per year... Guess what? That's right the school charges $50,000 per year!

Will they leave money on the table when the credit is available... ? But then again you could essentially file for bankruptcy if you decide to not pay for that 20,000 dollar pair of speakers, however you can't get that student loan evaporated under bankruptcy  :x

That is where the real economics come into play.

And yes you are correct Free market is at work, and choice is always the key element. So I will take your advise... I will not pay 5000.00 for audio equipment I know I can build for about 800, and just come on forums and complain about people that do decided to keep this "Greed" going  :P
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 06:10 pm
. I will not pay 5000.00 for audio equipment I know I can build for about 800, and just come on forums and complain about people that do decided to keep this "Greed" going  :P

Well, I for one would like to see your price of a piece of audio equipment (800 in materials) sold at your company after you've paid rent/storage/others' wages (not talking about a one person company here/packaging/distribution/design/advertising, taxes etc. I'm sure it'd be closer to 5000 than to 800.

Though you could follow the Dennis Murphy/Philharmonicaudio.com model. One man operation, making less than minimum wage probably - though he still sells a $3700 speaker.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 06:16 pm
Well, I for one would like to see your price of a piece of audio equipment (800 in materials) sold at your company after you've paid rent/storage/others' wages (not talking about a one person company here/packaging/distribution/design/advertising, taxes etc. I'm sure it'd be closer to 5000 than to 800.

That was exaggeration and simple sarcasm.... Point still stands, we are WAY over valuing many services, and costs involved is the whole of the matter. Why? Because people at the top are looking to cash out on greed yes... And for the Boomer generation its a double edge sword.

Again which will be a challenge moving forward for this industry and many others.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 06:20 pm
I think though that these big sound systems will be worthless in the future. Everything is eventually going virtual reality. Why even buy a Lamborghini when you won't be able to distinguish the sensations between a virtual reality game and the real thing?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 06:23 pm
EXACTLY! Which was the real point of the thread?

What happened to Hi-fi? Is that the name of this thread?

And anyway more to your point, lets put it this way Audio Research can charge 15,000 for a stereo tube preamp, but does that mean that the technology, and functions, and actually even more advanced costs to design a Sony $300.00 7 channel receiver, or HDTV should not be equal?

You get where I am going with this correct? Audio Research does NOT in fact spend more to build or package those products accept they are in a very niche market, and yes built in the U.S. vs. China... So there are some costs involved, but going based on materials, storage, work force etc... Guaranteed it can be done to a much more REASONABLE degree than 15000 dollar price increase.

I am not comparing the audiophile marketing, and or tube technology here, I am making a simple point. Value is very real, sure maybe 4000 for a preamp? Maybe, 5000? But you will have a hard time surviving into the future when the market starts going away and of course Apple, sony, etc... not made or designed like Audio Research will in fact still get the job done for the next generation.

So something will have to happen. Mostly why the used market thrives.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 06:27 pm
Yes but if the first customers said "I refuse to buy $2000/$1000 cell phones" and no one bought them, we wouldn't have $10 models either.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: MJK on 9 Jan 2017, 06:30 pm
Lets be brutally honest.

Most young people (actually most people but youth is the future) don't care about audio equipment. They listen to music but do not spend money on equipment. They do not buy records or CDs, they download music (free if possible) to their phones or computers and listen using headphones or a blue tooth speaker. That is all thay want.

The world is changing and certain things we value as old farts are dying

Newspapers
Magazines
Books and Libraries
Cable TV
Live music performances
Audio

just to name a few. It is not economy or disposable income, it is lack of interest.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 06:37 pm
Oh I agree...

But put this in perspective again I am very on point talking SPECIFICALLY about high end audio here. It has been around no question, and it is changing, no question.

You could not do MP3s on your phone until really about 10 years ago to any realistic degree, or any of the other functions now provided. By the way I will never pay 600 for an Iphone, never owned one, and could care less I get all the same done with a base smartphone, computer, tablet and all else around me.

Also, I don't know that a $2000 dollar smartphone ever existed, but unless it was that cutting edge and came out 10 years ago not sure who was buying it.

As for now this industry is trying to capitalize on very small adjustments, and trying to justify somehow that charging more for the base products and services will allow this to operate.

Last generation might be hung up on big silver face plates, and glowing tubes, with piano finishes. So would the next, but the prices will have to come down to reality.

They will not justify buying a single 2 channel amp for 10,000 over a new smart "Dishwasher", Fridge, and 80" 4K tv combined for the same price, and they use them every single day...

That is sorta the whole point..

Remember Wadia? The best in high end digital before my time where they were selling I think even 30,000 dollar DACS back in the 90's!

Would they survive today? They don't, they were bought by somebody and changed the whole product line to work with Apple Ipods and more mainstream gear...

And guess what they started building even better technology, but for prices ranging from 300 and up,,,, Not 3000 starting! They would not make it today.

So here we are right back where we started -

What happened to Hi-Fi?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 06:41 pm
I think though that these big sound systems will be worthless in the future. Everything is eventually going virtual reality. Why even buy a Lamborghini when you won't be able to distinguish the sensations between a virtual reality game and the real thing?

....because a car gets me from A to B, to run errands. Something VR can never do.  :lol:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: srb on 9 Jan 2017, 06:51 pm
So here we are right back where we started -
What happened to Hi-Fi?

Young people looked to the audio forums to see what all the fuss was about High Fidelity and discovered people were engineering social get-togethers to compare cables, power cords and cable elevators - and got bored to death.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 06:59 pm
One real cause of HiFi's demise: big credibility gap -- too much snake oils -- fancy cables, outrageous claims. The magazines (e.g. TAS) are also to blame.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 9 Jan 2017, 07:00 pm
Young people looked to the audio forums to see what all the fuss was about High Fidelity and discovered people were engineering social get-togethers to compare cables, power cords and cable elevators - and got bored to death.

This is possible... I will one up on this.

Fact is you do need to cut out "Time" for this activity. Today that is very difficult.

From personal experience I am in this whole millennial generation shift in which a lot of focus on going to work for many hours with less wages, along with bigger costs in everything, and continuously needing to come up with experience on a resume showing 14 years in nuclear science, with degrees in everything from Human resources, to Aerospace management just to work as a outside sales person that basically answers emails all day!

But once you figure out the time to do such things which is the easy part, most people now have to have roommates, and / or live in very small places.

Guess what? You can't put 5.5 ft tall speakers, blasting at 100 db volumes anytime of the day let alone when you actually get a chance too.

So I see the bigger challenge in the way we are packing population in tighter and tighter with less resources for reasonable pricing. In turn the proper environment to even do this is dwindling more and more today than 20 years ago.

Almost unless you come up with a dedicated space at home your going to be on Headphones, or listing on your phone at the gym so that is the extent of most peoples "Audiophile" experience today.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 07:05 pm
....because a car gets me from A to B, to run errands. Something VR can never do.  :lol:

Please let me know when you're going to take your Lambo out to run errands. I want to be off the streets while you're zooming down at 150 mph!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: MJK on 9 Jan 2017, 07:08 pm
My children (well educated and gainfully employed) will spend whatever it costs to get the latest phone. It is how they interact with the people and the world around them. It is where they get the news, where the music comes from, how they find potential partners, it is with them and on 24/7 as they go about life. I have almost never heard them take a call and talk on the phone. They do not own or want a TV. They don't carry cash, they swipe (and will not do business with somebody who wants only cash). It is beyond my comprehension.

I consider my kids very mainstream, typical of he young engineers in my office. Next time you are out among people look around to see how many are on their phones. I have seen couples in a restaurant on a date and they are both focused and interacting with their phones and not with each other. If the opposite sex cannot get you to look up from your phone what chance do you think an audio system has of becoming important.

Think the audio and music business is struggling now, project what you see around you ten years out into the future.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 07:09 pm
Please let me know when you're going to take your Lambo out to run errands. I want to be off the streets while you're zooming down at 150 mph!

...I don't own a Lambo.  :duh:  :lol:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 07:20 pm
I have seen couples in a restaurant on a date and they are both focused and interacting with their phones and not with each other. If the opposite sex cannot get you to look up from your phone what chance do you think an audio system has of becoming important.


Maybe they're married!  :lol:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: macrojack on 9 Jan 2017, 07:25 pm
My children (well educated and gainfully employed) will spend whatever it costs to get the latest phone. It is how they interact with the people and the world around them. It is where they get the news, where the music comes from, how they find potential partners, it is with them and on 24/7 as they go about life. I have almost never heard them take a call and talk on the phone. They do not own or want a TV. They don't carry cash, they swipe (and will not do business with somebody who wants only cash). It is beyond my comprehension.

I consider my kids very mainstream, typical of he young engineers in my office. Next time you are out among people look around to see how many are on their phones. I have seen couples in a restaurant on a date and they are both focused and interacting with their phones and not with each other. If the opposite sex cannot get you to look up from your phone what chance do you think an audio system has of becoming important.

Think the audio and music business is struggling now, project what you see around you ten years out into the future.

This comment wins the day.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: WGH on 9 Jan 2017, 08:16 pm
I have almost never heard them take a call and talk on the phone.

I have started telling people the upcoming iPhone 8 will no longer make or receive voice phone calls.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: macrojack on 9 Jan 2017, 08:30 pm
In reference to the kids using their phones for everything, I had a millennial inform me recently that not only do young people not have checking accounts, they don't even know the physical location of their bank.

I'm not ready for the brave new world. That said, I seldom write a check anymore. My purchases are paid with a credit card that, along with all my other bills, is paid online.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: srb on 9 Jan 2017, 08:43 pm
I have seen couples in a restaurant on a date and they are both focused and interacting with their phones and not with each other.

Apply that to quality family time.  Let's watch a movie!  Everyone put on their headsets and VR goggles!  Now not only do we not have to talk to each other, we don't even have to look at each other either!

And there's no better quality time than visiting Grandma .....

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156117)

Steve
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: MJK on 9 Jan 2017, 08:53 pm
My daughter went to a technical conference in New Orleans last spring. I took her to the airport and picked her up when she came back. After I dropped her off at the curb, being a good concerned Dad, I wondered how much money she took with her.

When she came back 4 days later I asked her how much money she took. Her reply $10. WHAT! You went to New Orleans for four days with only $10? Her response.

1. I had my phone and debit card.
2. As a group of 10-20 young professionals they went out to dinner and then some night life, if the place did not accept debit cards they walked out.
3. One person would pay and then they all used their phones to wire money to reimburse the payer.

She came home with $10.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 9 Jan 2017, 08:56 pm
Apply that to quality family time.  Let's watch a movie!  Everyone put on their headsets and VR goggles!  Now not only do we not have to talk to each other, we don't even have to look at each other either!


Steve

But they are working on MR - mixed reality. Objects placed in your field of vision where you are, like a VR vase on table at home  - also, people from somewhere else will be able to place flowers in your VR vase. You'll eventually interact with anyone in the world without looking down at a screen.

https://www.wired.com/2016/04/magic-leap-vr/ (https://www.wired.com/2016/04/magic-leap-vr/)
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 08:59 pm
My daughter went to a technical conference in New Orleans last spring. I took her to the airport and picked her up when she came back. After I dropped her off at the curb, being a good concerned Dad, I wondered how much money she took with her.

When she came back 4 days later I asked her how much money she took. Her reply $10. WHAT! You went to New Orleans for four days with only $10? Her response.

1. I had my phone and debit card.
2. As a group of 10-20 young professionals they went out to dinner and then some night life, if the place did not accept debit cards they walked out.
3. One person would pay and then they all used their phones to wire money to reimburse the payer.

She came home with $10.

I have no problem with this. If I lose ca$h it's gone for good, irreplaceable. Lose a card? One phone call, it's cancelled and quickly replaced. Even when travelling.  :thumb:

Electronics = more convenience. Better always? That's a personal choice.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: vegasdave on 9 Jan 2017, 09:48 pm
Completely agree.

HPs are immune to room acoustics. But then the spatial realism is gone with HPs.

thanks, and that's true...but once you have the room and speakers dialed in, you're good to go.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 9 Jan 2017, 09:59 pm
Great one Steve.  Kinda freaked me out the first time that happened at a family gathering (that we traveled 8 hours to be with them) and I realized everyone else except for me and the 2 year old were plugged in. 

Years ago my wife (mid 40's at the time) initiated a phone call while the family was driving to a restaurant.  When we got there she didn't leave the car until we were all out of the car.  Inside she was still on the call and we had to nudge her along to the table.  Once we got to the table we had to interrupt her call so the waitress could take her drink order.  And she got upset when we had to bug her again to order when the waitress returned. 

Once we learn how to embed cell phones under the flesh we will be Borg (Star Trek reference).

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 Jan 2017, 10:39 pm
You gotta remember 99.9% of the population has never heard a decent high end system these days. You'll never want what you don't know exists.

Another issue is there is no loyalty between employees and employers, I've had two sales canceled in the last few months due to work issues. One was a repeat customer the other was just checking out demos so I'm sure it wasn't just an excuse.

The boomer generation had economic opportunities later generations do not enjoy either... In general we don't have the disposable income for expensive hobbies.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 10:48 pm
thanks, and that's true...but once you have the room and speakers dialed in, you're good to go.

you're preaching to the converted, friend......must've missed the gist of my message.  :green:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 9 Jan 2017, 10:51 pm

Years ago my wife (mid 40's at the time) initiated a phone call while the family was driving to a restaurant.  When we got there she didn't leave the car until we were all out of the car.  Inside she was still on the call and we had to nudge her along to the table.  Once we got to the table we had to interrupt her call so the waitress could take her drink order.  And she got upset when we had to bug her again to order when the waitress returned. 

Once we learn how to embed cell phones under the flesh we will be Borg (Star Trek reference).

We need cell phones that don't work a when car is in motion. Too many distracted drivers (and passengers) on the roads.   :cry:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: MJK on 10 Jan 2017, 12:38 am
You gotta remember 99.9% of the population has never heard a decent high end system these days. You'll never want what you don't know exists.

I think you are too close to the hobby, if you are in the industry you obviously have something at stake.

I have demoed my system for many people over the years, they all enjoyed it and were very complimentary. They went away understanding my hobby. I used my own music selections and some of theirs, the recording quality of current popular music is so low that it was embarrassing.  I have lent out a pair of small OB speakers I built and let them circulate among a few people at work who showed an interest, the feedback was very positive. Bottom line is that they are not interested enough to become involved in audio equipment, they have other priorities.

When I got out of college everybody had a stereo system, bought records, and spent as much time listening to music as watching TV (no cable in those days). When I married my wife we had two stereo systems and a combined record collection. There were record stores and audio stores (hi end and mid fi) galore, not any more. If I wanted to get in the car right now and head to a mall or store and buy a jazz CD, maybe browse a selection of jazz CDs, I am not sure where I would go. How many of the people you know even have a stereo in their home and actually use it on a regular basis? For me, not many.

It is not employers and employees, it is not money or the economy, it is lack of interest.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 10 Jan 2017, 01:51 am

Hectic lifestyles
(multi-tasking + short attention spans) ---> Forced choices/prioritizing -------------
                                                               
----> Lack of interest (willful ignorance) in many things
         deemed "inconvenient".

It's mostly behavioural, not financial, factors that spell the demise of HiFi.

"Ignorance is Bliss"
-- George Orwell
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 10 Jan 2017, 03:40 am
We need cell phones that don't work a when car is in motion. Too many distracted drivers (and passengers) on the roads.   :cry:

But she was a passenger.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Folsom on 10 Jan 2017, 05:42 am
I don't understand what makes you guys think the dumpy KEF speakers from the 70's had any relation to high end audio today... Things have got a lot better. Just because more people had stereos, didn't mean they were all audiophiles. I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: sdolezalek on 10 Jan 2017, 07:03 am
I'm surprised that there is so little consideration of time in this thread.  By time, I mean the time necessary to actually sit down and carefully listen to an album, end-to-end.  In a world of tweets, snapchats, soundbites, etc. very few, except the old, actually take the time needed to read a book or truly listen to music for its own sake.  Why? I think it is because the rest of life now occupies just too much of our time and we, therefore, demand so much more of our downtime -- wanting it to be immersive video games, movies, live events, etc.

That doesn't mean music has disappeared, it only means that for most music is background rather than foreground.  It may be what you listen to on your earbuds, or your beats, but its role is largely as background and therefore quality just doesn't matter in the same way.  Your primary focus is on doing something else and too good a system suddenly becomes a distraction because it forces you to listen rather than just having a background beat.

I treasure having a system that gives me a sonic experience at least as good as that of attending the symphony, but I find it almost impossible to get someone to listen to more than a song or two on that system before I get the "sounds amazing but I've got to run" response.  Interestingly, because I use that same system for 7.1 surround sound with a large screen for movies, I find everyone wants to come over to watch movies on that same system -- why? Because they sound even more real than in the movie theater! 

Before they watch an entire movie on the system, most would say they couldn't care less about the sound; they only notice the picture quality.  But, an hour or two later, it was the sound that surprised them and made them realize it was a better experience.  If only they would sit still that long for music only...
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 10 Jan 2017, 11:17 am
But she was a passenger.

That wasn't clearly evident in the orig post.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 10 Jan 2017, 11:20 am
I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.

It's all relative to the best that was available at the time.

Heck, the recs of Reiner/Chicago Symphony on RCA are still references today, even before "remastering", if any was done. Superb sounding pieces then, and now. Many today have become too brainwashed into thinking that anything produced before 2000 sounds bad. Their loss, not mine. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 10 Jan 2017, 11:24 am
I'm surprised that there is so little consideration of time in this thread.  By time, I mean the time necessary to actually sit down and carefully listen to an album, end-to-end. 

Before they watch an entire movie on the system, most would say they couldn't care less about the sound; they only notice the picture quality.  But, an hour or two later, it was the sound that surprised them and made them realize it was a better experience.  If only they would sit still that long for music only...

For many, the stimulation of the visual cortex gives more satisfaction than stim of the auditory cortex. Vision has many more subtle gradations than sound, and the visual parts of our brains are more intimately connected to the emotional centers. That's probably why many "dig" movies more than listening to the soundtracks sans video.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 10 Jan 2017, 12:12 pm
That wasn't clearly evident in the orig post.


I've purposely not connected my phone to our new car with Bluetooth just so one of us (the passenger) can initiate a call while driving.  But I agree, any phone call while driving can be a distraction.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 10 Jan 2017, 12:25 pm


I've purposely not connected my phone to our new car with Bluetooth just so one of us (the passenger) can initiate a call while driving.  But I agree, any phone call while driving can be a distraction.

+1 on that.

The human brain has evolved to automatically focus in on the sounds of human speech -- whether it's in the passenger seat or not. So, a driver will not only hear, but will focus on, his/her passenger's phone talk, regardless of whether the driver intends to or not. Funny thing is, we don't do the same thing when music suddenly plays in a room -- we do notice it, momentarily, but it's a lot more difficult (for many) to stay focused on a 5-minute piece of music even when solitary in the home. Go figure.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 10 Jan 2017, 12:26 pm
I don't understand what makes you guys think the dumpy KEF speakers from the 70's had any relation to high end audio today... Things have got a lot better. Just because more people had stereos, didn't mean they were all audiophiles. I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.
 

Not much of a vintage guy, eh?  At the 2015 Axpona show the best sound I heard came from the Classic Audio room (approaching the open room I mistook it for a live performance).  Little has changed in audio over the past 50 years beyond digital source/amplification technology.  Materials for the most part are little changed.  No new speaker designs have taken over the industry.  Tube amps and vinyl playback are virtually unchanged.  The biggest change I've noticed is our collective taste, from full bodied bass/mid-bass (some would call it bloated) to a thinner (in many cases anemic) sound. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: OzarkTom on 10 Jan 2017, 01:06 pm
I don't understand what makes you guys think the dumpy KEF speakers from the 70's had any relation to high end audio today... Things have got a lot better. Just because more people had stereos, didn't mean they were all audiophiles. I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.

Quad 57's, Quad 63's, Beveridges, Hill Plasmas, Sound Labs, MBL's, and Acoustat Monitors were not good? Most dynamic speakers built today will still not touch any of these.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 10 Jan 2017, 02:03 pm
Well. I think plenty has changed since the 1970's, where my audio experience began. That's not to say there was no outstanding examples available at the time, but who bought them? Not many, and I'm including people who were actively into Audio, even High End Audio, in there.

I was there, we sold products like Quad ESLs, Magneplanars, Dayton Wright XG8's, Infinity References, Oracle 'tables, and yes ... Bryston (amongst others; I preferred the Threshold 400A and the Luxman tube gear but a 2B was a pretty sweet amp in those days).

But they were difficult to sell; although I don't mean to say they never sold, I mean you would not be able to survive as a business on those sales ... people listened and nodded their heads, but in the end they wanted the products they read about in the magazines of the day, and I don't mean the ad-free paperback sized Absolute Sound magazine.

Like today, the majority didn't trust their own ears and had to justify the expense to their friends with brands that advertised heavily. Just the way people are.

Still, I prefer and can hear fairly significant improvements in the modern examples of turntable, cartridge, pre and power amplifier, loudspeaker. Vast improvements in phono preamps, which were just emerging as a product in the late 70's, and loudspeakers.

Now, a 1975 Rolls Royce or Jag XKE or my buddy's '68 SS/RS 396/4-speed Camaro are remarkable automobiles, even today. But like the audio, they cannot claim to be the equals of *the best* of what you can buy now. What they do share with classic audio is the emotional "rightness" that makes them landmark products.

A modest "Classic" system can out-perform *some* gear sold today ... people today buy mass-market junk, or if I'm being harsh, rather ordinary but competent gear, that is buffeted by an advertising budget and positive reviews in Computer magazines (because that's what people read today) in preference to the truly remarkable gear.

But it's always been that way; if you want great gear that out-performs the classic stuff, you can find it. But you have to look, you have to trust your ears (few people do, in reality) and you have to actually fall off your wallet and get it into your living room.

With regard to "what happened to HiFi" ... I've said it before, but it's worth repeating ... teens today spend more on wireless contracts and cellphones than anyone I ever knew spent on HiFi, and if I had spent that % of my income every year from my teens until today I would have the five-figure components you see and can't afford in "Recommended Components" in my living room right now. And I don't.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: James Tanner on 10 Jan 2017, 02:51 pm
Hi Folks,

In regards to the speaker comments I would say that over my 50 years of involvement what has changed is the ability to make fast and accurate assessments of measurements. Computers have allowed us manufacturers to delve into the smallest differences between product A or B (amps/speakers/digital gear etc.).

For example when I was developing the Bryston speakers we measured a lot of the current speakers on the market as well as some older classic types to see how they would fair when it came to the ‘Sound Power’ they were capable of. Obviously prior to the advent of computers and anechoic facilities (and to some degree gating measurement systems) measuring sound power was essentially impossible due to the number and complexity of the curves needed to be measured. With the Bryston speaker we take 600 measurements all around the speaker in the anechoic chamber to fully understand the total sound power radiated into the room.

I should explain here what the sound power term means:

In a loudspeaker the ‘listening window’ is an average of a front set of curves (usually plus or minus 30 degrees) whereas the ‘sound power response’ is an average of all the curves right around the whole speaker (360 degrees).  What we actually hear seems heavily weighted to be a balance between these two conditions.  The listening windows frequency response should be very linear (flat) across the entire audio band but the sound power should fall off by 8 – 10dB by the time you get to 10kHz while still remaining linear in its march down from the bass frequencies.

So the difference between speaker systems of old and today is the older designs I think relied more on the designer’s talent at finding the balance between known science of the day and their artistic prowess. Today more science is involved based on 1. the listening preference research done over the past 20 years and 2. the ability to assess and quickly measure what is actually going on in any speaker.

Now that does not mean as a designer you discount the listening experience because depending on the weight you give to the sound power response in all directions (both vertically and horizontally) will determine to a great extent how a given speaker will sound in a typical room.

Sorry I got carried away here! – this thread is not about speaker design but I do think the speakers of today come much closer to providing people with better audio in their homes but as stated above that does not seem to matter much in today’s climate.

james

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 10 Jan 2017, 03:08 pm
Well, James, I would have to agree that the loudspeaker has benefitted the greatest when it comes to applying technology and at a much lower cost (to develop) versus "50 years ago" ... I would say even 20 years ago (January 1997). That isn't to discount the improvements in products like amplifiers and pre-amplifiers, but what you can buy today in a loudspeaker at almost any budget ... it's actually difficult to buy a bad speaker today. Not so in the past.

That is not to imply that a great speaker is "run of the mill" because you do have to make an effort to end up with an outstanding example in your home, but the bar has definitely been raised at the low end and the high.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: James Tanner on 10 Jan 2017, 03:29 pm
Well, James, I would have to agree that the loudspeaker has benefitted the greatest when it comes to applying technology and at a much lower cost (to develop) versus "50 years ago" ... I would say even 20 years ago (January 1997). That isn't to discount the improvements in products like amplifiers and pre-amplifiers, but what you can buy today in a loudspeaker at almost any budget ... it's actually difficult to buy a bad speaker today. Not so in the past.

That is not to imply that a great speaker is "run of the mill" because you do have to make an effort to end up with an outstanding example in your home, but the bar has definitely been raised at the low end and the high.

Hi John

Well I would say the methodology is there today to build a good speaker but without a true anechoic camber and measurement understanding it is a lot tougher than some may think.

james
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: srb on 10 Jan 2017, 03:36 pm
Well I would say the mythology is there today to build a good speaker but without a true anechoic camber and measurement understanding it is a lot tougher than some may think

Mythology or methodology?   ;)
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 10 Jan 2017, 03:39 pm
Note: all values in $Canadian and using the Bank of Canada Cost of Living Index.

When I sold HiFi in the late 70's, we had nothing in the store for less than about $ 650 for a complete system ... turntable, cartridge, amplifier, speakers.

That's $ 2500 in 2016 dollars.

We had speakers up to about $3500 a pair ... $13,000 in 2016 dollars.

A record album was $13 ... list price was $17. That's $48.18 and $63.00 in 2016 dollars.

The mid-priced HiFi turntable was about $350 and people put a $200 cartridge on it. That's $1,279 and $741 in today's money. Our "expensive" tables were a bit over $1000. That's "a bit over $3705" if you went out this morning to buy one.

Someone complained about a five figure Audio Research amplifier. At $15,000 in today's dollars, that would be $4,047 in 1977. Well, that's a bit high, but not by much, and just the chassis on today's example is vastly more elaborate than the plain steel box that ARC gave you then.

I'm not trying to defend outlandish prices in HiFi, but just to put a bit of perspective. It was a weekly occurrence to sell a 5-piece system ... table, cartridge, pre/power amplification and speakers ... that cost between $3000 and $4000 in our store. That's $11,118 to $14,824 today. And this was in a city with a trading area (60 mile circle) of 120,000 people.

The prices are not really out of line. What has changed is how many people are willing to spend it.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 10 Jan 2017, 03:46 pm
Hi John

Well I would say the mythology is there today to build a good speaker but without a true anechoic camber and measurement understanding it is a lot tougher than some may think.

james

Sure, but the NRC chamber has been around for what ... 40 years? It's not an accident that so many loudspeaker companies hail from Central Canada. I understand Axiom has their own, but you gotta start somewhere. It hit home for me in the late 70's when a few British speaker companies started moving to Ontario, and people like Paul Barton started to make waves in the export market.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: James Tanner on 10 Jan 2017, 03:56 pm
Mythology or methodology?   ;)

OOPs - spelling is not my strong suit - thanks.

james
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 10 Jan 2017, 03:57 pm
Johnny2Bad

Just to clarify nobody complained about an Audio Research preamp at 15,000. It was used as an example to a question about how could you build a component with features, and quality at a lower price point.

Hence the example was used that a 2 channel / Tube audio research amp has less actually technology in it than a smart phone, HDTV, and $300 dollar sony receiver combined.

Point was that it is a hard sell today... And it was also stated that "Maybe" this would be a product line more feasible at 4000 to 5000. But justifying it at 15,000 will be very hard to sell into the "Next Generation".

Also, fact is packaging, and shipping etc... on any of these items would be the same in reality for most companies.

But again those that love big silver faceplates, the glow of tubes, and somewhat better sound quality will pay up for this, however what is "Reasonable" was the question. Is 15,000 for 4 tubes, and an isolated power supply worth 14,000 more? Guess there are those that will argue it one way or the other!

Just as side note I was not around in the 70's, but I can tell you this my mother never paid more than about 3.99 to 5.99 an album, even most still had price stickers on them! So not sure where they were being sold for 13 or 17 bucks unless they were MOFI or something?

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 10 Jan 2017, 05:09 pm

Just as side note I was not around in the 70's, but I can tell you this my mother never paid more than about 3.99 to 5.99 an album, even most still had price stickers on them! So not sure where they were being sold for 13 or 17 bucks unless they were MOFI or something?

He said Canadian - which IIRC, was something like .75 on the dollar at the time - 1/3 more. Also, keeping on the memory theme, in the mid-late 70's, I think albums were 5.99/6.99 -almost $24 > $28!!!  :o
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 10 Jan 2017, 06:45 pm
I think you are too close to the hobby, if you are in the industry you obviously have something at stake.

I have demoed my system for many people over the years, they all enjoyed it and were very complimentary. They went away understanding my hobby. I used my own music selections and some of theirs, the recording quality of current popular music is so low that it was embarrassing.  I have lent out a pair of small OB speakers I built and let them circulate among a few people at work who showed an interest, the feedback was very positive. Bottom line is that they are not interested enough to become involved in audio equipment, they have other priorities.

When I got out of college everybody had a stereo system, bought records, and spent as much time listening to music as watching TV (no cable in those days). When I married my wife we had two stereo systems and a combined record collection. There were record stores and audio stores (hi end and mid fi) galore, not any more. If I wanted to get in the car right now and head to a mall or store and buy a jazz CD, maybe browse a selection of jazz CDs, I am not sure where I would go. How many of the people you know even have a stereo in their home and actually use it on a regular basis? For me, not many.

It is not employers and employees, it is not money or the economy, it is lack of interest.

IME, it's a combination of factors including financial.

I've been working on a speaker that'll retail around $50k. My observations after having a few dozen folks hear it is as I stated in my last post. Almost everyone has been shocked after hearing it, comments like "I didn't know music could sound this good", etc... I've had an industry expert tell me he enjoyed my system more than a $1M+ system we heard. No offense, but a small OB system isn't showing people what HiFi is all about. Plenty of interest but very few are willing to spend even 1/10th of what my system would cost. Understandably so, as wages have been stagnant and cost of living keeps going up. Job stability is a thing of the past as well, when you're worried about lay-offs you're going to be more conservative financially just in case your job is eliminated.

This is what's causing the rift between mid and high end systems and why the middle end is disappearing, this is 100% financial imo. The audio market is a reflection of the financial condition of our society in many ways. Finances are by far the largest factor in determining so many things in our society, including current political phenomenon, energy policy and much more. I think we're screwed unless our middle class can be resuscitated. I tend to agree with Henry Ford's statement about paying his workers enough to afford his cars, something like "It's better to have 200 people that can buy a car than one person who can afford 200 cars.". Right now we're seeing a massive gap in wealth to the point less than 100 people control over 50% of the world's wealth. Seen from this perspective the trends in high end audio make a lot more sense.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: MJK on 10 Jan 2017, 08:22 pm
You are not in the real world.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Folsom on 10 Jan 2017, 08:39 pm
Quad 57's, Quad 63's, Beveridges, Hill Plasmas, Sound Labs, MBL's, and Acoustat Monitors were not good? Most dynamic speakers built today will still not touch any of these.

How many people owned those? or heard them? Umm... based on the shit-ton of Sansui, KEF, Technics, etc, speakers you see from yesteryear, today, I'd stand to say not that many.

I believe people have road blocks in their minds. Like $100 is something significant, maybe because we have a $100 bill? What if it was a $300 bill? Our bills have poor proportions to value these days, as the $1 is becoming negligible as a marker for anything unless you, say, shrink the size of a candy bar. Frankly I don't think people understand inflation in the least. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 10 Jan 2017, 08:39 pm
You are not in the real world.

Alrighty then, good talking to you...   :lol:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 10 Jan 2017, 08:56 pm

I believe people have road blocks in their minds. Like $100 is something significant, maybe because we have a $100 bill? What if it was a $300 bill? Our bills have poor proportions to value these days, as the $1 is becoming negligible as a marker for anything unless you, say, shrink the size of a candy bar. Frankly I don't think people understand inflation in the least.

I'm not so sure. As per my comment above - would I pay $24-28 for a new, non-audiophile album? Even if music could not be copied for free so easily today, $5.99 at yesterday's wages seems easier to do/justify than $23.95 does today.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 10 Jan 2017, 09:03 pm
I'm not so sure. As per my comment above - would I pay $24-28 for a new, non-audiophile album? Even if music could not be copied for free so easily today, $5.99 at yesterday's wages seems easier to do/justify than $23.95 does today.

That's a tough example because music has been devalued,  no longer requiring a physical medium.

But also an example that in the time period you're talking about wages have stagnated vs cost of living.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 10 Jan 2017, 09:21 pm
I think the bigger problem is people living in "La, La, Land" and I am not just talking about L.A. although that does have a lot to do with the ideological problems today, and likely why people were shocked Trump just got elected.

People talk about how everything is "Relative" when it comes to cost... Sure when both sides of the equation are in fact calculated! Problem is we have analysts that go around using the half they like, or serves their purpose such as on this board.

Why? Because most of them are in the 55 to 70 year old range which took over companies in the 80's where they could get paid 30,000 a year in a management job or way overpaid union job which now would be equal to more like 120,000 per year which is very rare to make.

For example a guy making 12,000 a year in 1970 was not exactly making a lot of money correct? But a coke was 50 cents, a cheeseburger maybe 75 cents, a house was about 15 to 20,000 for an average 1200 square foot or larger, in many parts of the country including the bigger suburbs, and cities... Cars I believe a luxury car would cost you 2500 to 5000!

You know what that means the average guy making 5.76 per hour or 12,000 could buy with his take home pay 2 entire brand new cars in a year cash, or more if they wanted too! And still have walking around money. And yes 6 bucks an hour was not that far from average.

Or in 2 years pay off an entire house!

Now this same guy today making 25 bucks an hour... Forget it... That house will be paid off in 20 years if lucky and that is pushing a very difficult accelerated mortgage.

And go buy a 5000 dollar Cadillac good luck they don't exist new.. Now they are 50,000.

So now this guy making 25 per hour or 52,000 a year barely makes GROSS income enough to cover that Cadillac let alone 2!

Nor does he make enough even NET to cover it.

What use to be purchased in a year, takes people 5 to 15 years now including audio.

Audio is a pure luxury no question, but the way it was done with the kid working all summer to buy that first Mcintosh receiver for $350 back in the day, is very different from pulling the trigger today on that same Mcintosh gear that costs $3500.00 regardless if you say the average guy making 12,000 than is equivalent to the guy making 50,000 now.

So we have some seriously jaded people in audio, and on this board if you think these theory's mean much vs. reality in practice.

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 10 Jan 2017, 09:35 pm
I think the bigger problem is people living in "La, La, Land" and I am not just talking about L.A. although that does have a lot to do with the ideological problems today, and likely why people were shocked Trump just got elected.

People talk about how everything is "Relative" when it comes to cost... Sure when both sides of the equation are in fact calculated! Problem is we have analysts that go around using the half they like, or serves their purpose such as on this board.

Why? Because most of them are in the 55 to 70 year old range which took over companies in the 80's where they could get paid 30,000 a year in a management job or way overpaid union job which now would be equal to more like 120,000 per year which is very rare to make.

For example a guy making 12,000 a year in 1970 was not exactly making a lot of money correct? But a coke was 50 cents, a cheeseburger maybe 75 cents, a house was about 15 to 20,000 for an average 1200 square foot or larger, in many parts of the country including the bigger suburbs, and cities... Cars I believe a luxury car would cost you 2500 to 5000!

You know what that means the average guy making 5.76 per hour or 12,000 could buy with his take home pay 2 entire brand new cars in a year cash, or more if they wanted too! And still have walking around money. And yes 6 bucks an hour was not that far from average.

Or in 2 years pay off an entire house!

Now this same guy today making 25 bucks an hour... Forget it... That house will be paid off in 20 years if lucky and that is pushing a very difficult accelerated mortgage.

And go buy a 5000 dollar Cadillac good luck they don't exist new.. Now they are 50,000.

So now this guy making 25 per hour or 52,000 a year barely makes GROSS income enough to cover that Cadillac let alone 2!

Nor does he make enough even NET to cover it.

What use to be purchased in a year, takes people 5 to 15 years now including audio.

Audio is a pure luxury no question, but the way it was done with the kid working all summer to buy that first Mcintosh receiver for $350 back in the day, is very different from pulling the trigger today on that same Mcintosh gear that costs $3500.00 regardless if you say the average guy making 12,000 than is equivalent to the guy making 50,000 now.

So we have some seriously jaded people in audio, and on this board if you think these theory's mean much vs. reality in practice.


Thank you, this is the main issue with our entire society right now and is not sustainable, it's THE reason for decline in luxury markets across the board, not just audio. Much of our current issues would go away if we could fix the economic issues. Most other issues fade into obscurity after you've been dealing with financial stress for too long, and people are much more likely to blame their issues on others, perpetuating nationalism, racism and hate in general. I hope this can be turned around somehow.

In many luxury markets people are rushing as fast as possible upmarket because the middle is dead. Goods from all over the place, from luxury/designer clothing to prestigious luxury auto brands, are cheapening their products because of it, or greatly increasing pricing. One or the other. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Armaegis on 10 Jan 2017, 10:02 pm
My folks were immigrants who came to Canada with nothing in their teens, worked blue collar jobs, and managed to put two kids through school and settle into a 2000 sq ft home at 20% mortage rate in a nice upper middle class part of town. We weren't "rich", but lived comfortably.

Me, I miraculously managed to not go into debt paying for school myself, I've got more degrees than my parents put together, worked in a supposedly well paying white collar world, have a house not even half the size... yet still need roommates to help pay my mortgage which is at a middling 3% and the financial vultures of starting a family are mortifying. I buy used because retail prices on boutique gear now is a pipe dream.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 10 Jan 2017, 10:12 pm
Dave, Armaegis,

And you know what the funny thing today these guys keep saying? Go get another job if your not payed what your worth just go out and get it right?

Funny thing is these are the same people telling you this while they are the same people hiring that would never cut into their profits to actually pay you what your worth anyway :-)

Double talk, lowered responsibility, and all about the stocks performing no matter what it takes, because if confidence slips they start to get very worried they can't keep B.S.ing people.

And when those houses worth 100 bucks a square foot everybody got duped into paying 200 per square for drop back to 100 per square where they belong, blame a president! Even though it has absolutely zero to do with it.

There is no great solution accept for people to start to accept it needs to correct on its own, or just like they took away guaranteed pensions, and now force you to risk your entire life based on a 401k, and hope the risk pays off! Time is just running out simple as that.

Always prepare for the worst, but hope for the best... It's never worked any other way accept they keep trying to promise people it will.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: WGH on 11 Jan 2017, 01:19 am
What Happened to Hi-Fi?

In two words - Drake and Streaming
There is no reason to own a stereo to listen to pop music these days.

All Things Considered has an interesting segment on album sales:
http://www.npr.org/2017/01/10/509173847/from-mozart-to-adele-to-chance-the-rapper-measuring-album-sales-means-being-spec (http://www.npr.org/2017/01/10/509173847/from-mozart-to-adele-to-chance-the-rapper-measuring-album-sales-means-being-spec)

"...When you do look at the total consumption for the year in terms of albums, you had Drake's Views record being the top record of the year.

In terms of sales, it was bested by Adele's 25 record, which actually came out at the end of 2015 but continued to sell very well throughout the year. But when we talk about total consumption — the album, all of the songs that were purchased individually, all of the streams that happened — Drake was the biggest of the year."

"...we had over 250 billion audio streams last year"


And for a historical footnote - nothing has happened to Hi-Fi - it's death has been predicted every year since the first issue of Stereophile and is perennially a favorite topic that generates a lot of letters to the editor.

Wayne
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Folsom on 11 Jan 2017, 02:36 am
$12k in 1970 is $74.6k today.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Armaegis on 11 Jan 2017, 03:10 am
Dave, Armaegis,

And you know what the funny thing today these guys keep saying? Go get another job if your not payed what your worth just go out and get it right?

Funny thing is these are the same people telling you this while they are the same people hiring that would never cut into their profits to actually pay you what your worth anyway :-)

Yup... job market is dry, wages are frozen, people that should be retiring aren't and employers are only willing to hire temps/term positions because then it keeps their outlays low and they don't have to pay out for benefits.

So somewhere in there, I play with a little bit of audio by very very carefully perusing through used classifieds, and frankly the only way I've even been able to play in this arena is because I've been buying locally and then selling it to the Americans because the exchange rate works in my favour.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: macrojack on 11 Jan 2017, 11:11 am
Something else I have noticed about this discussion is the repeated references to the glory days of hi-fi. Those days were a blip. Owning a hi-fi was a de rigueur status measure for a time and that was followed by the Reagan era penny stock go-go economy, another moment of status-seeking. These were fad moments, high points, not the norm against which today need be measured. Owning a hi-fi system such as what we grew into will be very rare in the not too distant future. Those of us who still see a pair of floor standing speakers in the living room as normal look like the furry dice on the mirror crowd to "normal" Americans. We are the anomaly, not the iPhone listener, but us. And we are dropping in number now, prior to the next big taking. Once that has settled in, and the repercussions are widely felt, the number of potential buyers will be near zero. The poor and determined amongst us will scavenge their way to satisfaction and the wealthy will purchase what they want as usual. They are not so likely to buy in, however, because there will be no status or adulation obtainable. What kind of system do you think Trump owns?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 11 Jan 2017, 11:36 am
Something else I have noticed about this discussion is the repeated references to the glory days of hi-fi. Those days were a blip. Owning a hi-fi was a de rigueur status measure for a time and that was followed by the Reagan era penny stock go-go economy, another moment of status-seeking. These were fad moments, high points, not the norm against which today need be measured. Owning a hi-fi system such as what we grew into will be very rare in the not too distant future. Those of us who still see a pair of floor standing speakers in the living room as normal look like the furry dice on the mirror crowd to "normal" Americans. We are the anomaly, not the iPhone listener, but us. And we are dropping in number now, prior to the next big taking. Once that has settled in, and the repercussions are widely felt, the number of potential buyers will be near zero. The poor and determined amongst us will scavenge their way to satisfaction and the wealthy will purchase what they want as usual. They are not so likely to buy in, however, because there will be no status or adulation obtainable. What kind of system do you think Trump owns?

Who knows? Ask him. He has no time for hi-fi. His entertainment comes from ego-boosting and tweeting.

I prefer to belong to a select (and shrinking in size) group. That owns great audio gear, and certainly not for "status symbols". Face it, how many people besides the owners get to see/hear audio gear? Unlike cars and jewelry....I estimate the total # of friends/guests who have seen/heard my home system is fewer than ten. Honestly.  :nono:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 11 Jan 2017, 12:34 pm
macrojack,

Trump listens only to himself.


CanadianMaestro,

Yeah, few outsiders appreciate/understand audio.  AV guys have a wider audience because more folks like loud special effects and big screens.  And frankly audiophiles spend ridiculous amounts of money on gear (as much or more for 2 channels without a picture compared to AV that more people enjoy).  For some reason audiophiles grasp for the nth degree of fidelity yet can't agree on the best approach (tubes/solid state, digital/vinyl, and various speaker design concepts).  Little wonder few outsiders appreciate/understand audio.

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: gnostalgick on 11 Jan 2017, 01:07 pm
  I see a few people have mentioned how the younger generation generally uses music only as background. I'd just like to add that its not their fault. Music is used as background at almost any & every store or restaurant you go anymore (if not, there's either a tv on, or no one's shopping/eating).  Its like its not allowed for there to be silence in public places anymore. For all the disparaging of texting there's been, at least its quiet.

  It's been said that hi-fi is supposed to strive to be comparable to the live performance. Unfortunately the sound at most 'pop' music concerts is pretty dismal. A dynamic range compressed mp3 isn't that far off from either a seedy bar/club hosting an up and coming act, or too close/too distant seating at a sold-out stadium event. Hence a phone & cheap earbuds, or bluetooth speakers are, sadly, good enough hi-fi for most people, almost regardless of age.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: James Tanner on 11 Jan 2017, 02:03 pm
  I see a few people have mentioned how the younger generation generally uses music only as background. I'd just like to add that its not their fault. Music is used as background at almost any & every store or restaurant you go anymore (if not, there's either a tv on, or no one's shopping/eating).  Its like its not allowed for there to be silence in public places anymore. For all the disparaging of texting there's been, at least its quiet.

  It's been said that hi-fi is supposed to strive to be comparable to the live performance. Unfortunately the sound at most 'pop' music concerts is pretty dismal. A dynamic range compressed mp3 isn't that far off from either a seedy bar/club hosting an up and coming act, or too close/too distant seating at a sold-out stadium event. Hence a phone & cheap earbuds, or bluetooth speakers are, sadly, good enough hi-fi for most people, almost regardless of age.

Hi GN

Some good points there.  One of the benefits I have had in my time in this industry has been the ability to be present at a lot of recording sessions including all types of venues - Jazz, Classical and Pop/Rock/Folk.

Bryston is one of the few companies that has been able to survive in both the professional and Consumer market places and as such has given me a little different perspective on the way music is recorded. So I have been fortunate enough to sit directly in front of (both on the recording floor and in the control room) the Jazz group or Orchestra or Rock ensemble  and been able to listen to how things sound in the real live environment (sound stage) as well as the control room and how those recordings sound when you take the CD or Digital File home.

I agree with you that most live performances (especially rock) suffer from what can actually be captured in a quality recording session. That's why in my case my audio system reflects my experience with that sound at the recording level and that tends to be my goal when assessing audio gear.

james
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 11 Jan 2017, 02:42 pm
James,

Which is consistently better-sounding for you -- the soundstage (concert-style venue) or the controlled studio setting?

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 11 Jan 2017, 03:18 pm
Hi GN

Some good points there.  One of the benefits I have had in my time in this industry has been the ability to be present at a lot of recording sessions including all types of venues - Jazz, Classical and Pop/Rock/Folk.

james

Digital has gotten much better over the last 10 years. Vinyl was best between around 1975 to 1990 for the best of the best recordings.

Some new vinyl from pop, rock band albums are very good sounding, but most still don't match up to the best vinyl from the early 80's when it comes down to quality sounding pressings, I am not talking about musical content.

The shift in digital media storage, and devices geared toward playback are still needed, and gave a boost 10 years ago.

The Vinyl "Revival" over the last 5 years probably seriously is the only thing that truly bumped up more time for high end to figure it out, and it came at a time they needed it desperately! This is what has kept audio or even high end on the map period. Not big speakers or amps.

I have this image in my head of all the big name guys scurrying around finding their schematics stashed in a file drawer somewhere from 1979 to rebuild, and reissue those phono stages now!

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 11 Jan 2017, 03:30 pm
Speaking of convenience and the decline of HiFi, check out this story...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/music-streaming-knowledge-obama-1.3929344
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 11 Jan 2017, 04:43 pm
As for sound quality, it recently has taken a hit because of mp3 and the loudness wars but because of cheaper, faster computers and their chips, I think close to perfect recordings will eventually happen with the loudness processed in for low budget players.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: NIGHTFALL1970 on 11 Jan 2017, 05:19 pm
Error.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: NIGHTFALL1970 on 11 Jan 2017, 05:22 pm
macrojack,

Trump listens only to himself.



Another example of why he won, and Dems are STILL clueless.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 11 Jan 2017, 05:53 pm
Uh oh. Politics. Trash bin time?  :shake:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: NIGHTFALL1970 on 11 Jan 2017, 05:55 pm
He started it. :lol:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 11 Jan 2017, 06:17 pm
He started it. :lol:

MMMMOM!!!!!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: timind on 11 Jan 2017, 07:41 pm
Stick a fork in it.

This thread and hi end audio are done.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: vegasdave on 12 Jan 2017, 06:23 am
you're preaching to the converted, friend......must've missed the gist of my message.  :green:

ok haha, yeah that went over my head so to speak....:D so what is the gist?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: assafl on 12 Jan 2017, 09:29 am
IMHO - the trend that killed the audio market was subjectivism. The start was late 70's. Pure, 100% snake oil.

* Directional cables????
* People poo-pooed parametric equalizers and then bought "network" interconnects????
* Cryogenically dipped "whatever"????
* Zelkova tree stands (what the heck is a zelkova tree)????
* 100W class A amplifiers (really????) and single ended Triode with 300B (and to think Western Electric were so proud when they got rid of that awful garbage)???
* Weight rings for your CDs????
* Bybee quantum filters????
* How much does a boulder amp weigh??? And one could get probably 15 amps from Crown at the same price...
* "Objective" style fake ranking - e.g. putting a Arnie Nudell designed 2 meter high multi-unit line array with a small D'Appolito "monitor" in the same list (and giving the former 100pts while the latter only 78pts - Huh - how do you even build a room where you could compare the two)?????
* "Audio grade" capacitors, resistors, inductors and 110v outlets...

And some things just sound like snake oil (but might not be). Like diamond or beryllium loudspeaker cones (albeit the latter - TAD and Focal drivers are very nice).

It was the industry's fault to play along. Instead of insisting on focusing on quality and circuit topology and measurements (and playing along with magazines like Audio and the good writers) - the marketing departments were happy. Let's hide the designers (any time a designer talks sales plummet - remember Dave Wilson saying he doesn't have to listen to a speaker? the same was with Martin Logan's designer... I am not sure it ever fully recovered), cryogenically dip the IEC cable (bought in China but added zelkova tree weaving around it) and say that violins sounds like the weep of a weeping willow on a starlit night.... And ask for more money.

Subjectivism is a double edged sword - it promises a lot - but overused - it brings a pile of skepticism into the mix. A health mix of objective discussion (e.g. measurements, discuss the topology e.g. Bryston's quad complementary output stage...) and subjective assessment ("I like this amp even though it had a higher THD+N") - really kept the skepticism at bay. 

The younger generation is a better customer - and they got fed up with the meaningless mumbo jumbo and the appearance of snake oil. So they (still do) spend a lot of money on Bose and Sonus and small loudspeakers etc. But steer away from - what they see - as the snake oil peddlers.

If the Blameless amplifier (to borrow Douglas Self's term for a good amp - one that just amplifies) is the epitome of the Hi-fi market - unfortunately very few makers outside the pro-audio industry are actually there - and these true Hi-Fi manufacturers are hard to find in the pile of high-end garbage. Bryston is right there - IMHO guarded against the snakes by maintaining a firm leg in the pro-audio side.

Of real Hifi - all that is left is the DIYAudio site and random posts on a few engineering sites (like EEVblog). And some sites like Jan Didden, Siegfried Linkwitz, Lynn Olson, and few other old timers. Head-fi used to be good 10 years ago but is now inhabited mostly by subjectivists (who kowtow to any fad) to a fault.

BTW - Subjectivism is now doing the same to the high end wine market and the watch industry is undergoing similar trends. As are the upper scale cars (mainly the mass market ones like Mercedes and BMW - making tiny "cheap" cars now...)...
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 12 Jan 2017, 12:12 pm
ok haha, yeah that went over my head so to speak....:D so what is the gist?

floor speakers beat headphones for imaging, no contest.   8)
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Armaegis on 12 Jan 2017, 05:21 pm
* Zelkova tree stands (what the heck is a zelkova tree)????

I'm not depending any of the other stuff, but just wanted to point out that Zelkova is actually a type of tree:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelkova_serrata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelkova
I don't believe that it has any special properties in regards to audio, but it's a pretty tree nonetheless.

floor speakers beat headphones for imaging, no contest.   8)

For imaging I'd argue that it would come down to the quality of each, though good speakers will likely do staging better.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 13 Jan 2017, 01:39 pm
Johnny2Bad

Just to clarify nobody complained about an Audio Research preamp at 15,000. It was used as an example to a question about how could you build a component with features, and quality at a lower price point.

Hence the example was used that a 2 channel / Tube audio research amp has less actually technology in it than a smart phone, HDTV, and $300 dollar sony receiver combined.

Point was that it is a hard sell today... And it was also stated that "Maybe" this would be a product line more feasible at 4000 to 5000. But justifying it at 15,000 will be very hard to sell into the "Next Generation".

Also, fact is packaging, and shipping etc... on any of these items would be the same in reality for most companies.

But again those that love big silver faceplates, the glow of tubes, and somewhat better sound quality will pay up for this, however what is "Reasonable" was the question. Is 15,000 for 4 tubes, and an isolated power supply worth 14,000 more? Guess there are those that will argue it one way or the other!

Just as side note I was not around in the 70's, but I can tell you this my mother never paid more than about 3.99 to 5.99 an album, even most still had price stickers on them! So not sure where they were being sold for 13 or 17 bucks unless they were MOFI or something?

They were 1.99 in 1960 and under $5 through the 1960's. When I was in High School (1969~73) and travelling to the record store every Saturday they were about $8 to $13, depending if you shopped at a Record Store which offered a discount, or a Department Store, which didn't.

[As an aside, I earned my Record Money by working at a service station, pumping gas. Yes, I cleaned your windows ... all of them ... and checked your oil every time you visited. By Grade 10 (or if you are an American, "the Tenth Grade") I was working full time 4pm to midnight Tuesday to Saturday, while attending school full time and maintaining a B to A- average. School was relatively easy, as I was allowed to "work ahead" of the class, so I was done the year's work by February or so and didn't really have to attend most classes, although I did have to be there for attendance at 10:30AM and 1:15PM every day, while French and PhysEd were mandatory every day. All my English, Maths, and Sciences would be done though.

I was paid $1.15~1.25 an hour and the full service price for 90 octane regular was about 48c a gallon, or 10.21 cents a litre].

By the end of the decade, 1978~80, they were about $15 with a typical discount from the Label's MSRP of about $17. A Direct to Disk or Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab album sold for $25~40.

The inflation rate in the 1970'S was high; distributors released a new price list every six months and inflation was in the double digits; by the early 80's a mortgage in Canada would cost you 20~24% in interest. That means prices double every 3 years and a few months.

A common news story of the day referred to the number of people who were locking up their homes, leaving the keys on the kitchen table, and walking away, simply defaulting on the mortgage.

The above is all in $Canadian and reflects the Canadian economic reality. Prices, and inflation, were lower in the US, although from their perspective, still high for both.

The remarkable thing is album prices and CDs did not rise in price as much as everything else during the last 30 years, from the mid 1980's on. Cassettes, CDs then LP records were the most to least expensive to manufacture (about $2.50, $2.25 and $1.50).

The Audio gear itself, did rise in step with inflation, and were it not for economies of scale, the emergence of an electronics manufacturing ecosystem in the Far East and improvements in efficiency brought on by the Digital Revolution, would be even higher in cost today than they are.

Today vinyl is considerably more expensive than CD/DVD, cost of which hovers around $1 a copy.

* At 20% a given value doubles every 3 years 7 months 6 days.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: BobRex on 13 Jan 2017, 01:47 pm
They were 1.99 in 1960 and under $5 through the 1960's. When I was in High School (1969~73) and travelling to the record store every Saturday they were about $8 to $13, depending if you shopped at a Record Store which offered a discount, or a Department Store, which didn't.

By the end of the decade, 1978~80, they were about $15 with a typical discount from the Label's MSRP of about $17. A Direct to Disk or Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab album sold for $25~40.

I don't know where you were buying your records, but you were taken.  I have many, many imports with price stickers under or around 10 bucks purchased between 1976 and 1980.  Domestics were still in the 5 - 7 buck range.  I started selling audio, and as an extension audiophile records, in 1978.  At that time Mo-Fi, Sheffield, Telarc, and the smaller labels all sold for $15.95.  The closest I saw to 40 bucks were the original UHQRs, box sets not included.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: dB Cooper on 13 Jan 2017, 02:02 pm
Those prices were Canadian $, so maybe not as out-of-kilter as you might think.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 13 Jan 2017, 02:35 pm
I don't know where you were buying your records, but you were taken.  I have many, many imports with price stickers under or around 10 bucks purchased between 1976 and 1980.  Domestics were still in the 5 - 7 buck range.  I started selling audio, and as an extension audiophile records, in 1978.  At that time Mo-Fi, Sheffield, Telarc, and the smaller labels all sold for $15.95.  The closest I saw to 40 bucks were the original UHQRs, box sets not included.

I take it you don't live in Canada. You do realize that just based on exchange rates alone there should be a 15% premium in Canada at that time. There was a 13% Federal Sales Tax (reduced to 11% around 1980) on everything sold in Canada at the time, applied at the wholesale level so that every step along the way to the retail customer, it was compounded (it was killed when Canada introduced the GST in the late 1980's, something few consumers realize).

Although the GST, introduced I believe in 1989 and currently at 5%, is unpopular amongst consumers, it replaced a tax that generated less revenue and raised retail prices considerably more; the hidden, wholesale FST alone resulted in retail prices roughly 25% higher, versus 5% higher with the GST.

Finally the cost of advertising and marketing were factored into wholesale prices; in a bizarre situation, it was common industry practice for Canadian distributors to pay an equal (per capita) share of US advertising, and then they had to pay the cost of domestic advertising and marketing alone.

Fewer warehousing facilities and longer distances (Canada is 1,000 km wider than New York to LA) mean higher transportation costs cross country, and typically the retailer pays for shipping.

Also at the time there were duties and tariffs on all audio (and all LP records) imported into Canada. Duties and Tariffs were reduced or eliminated during the 1980's and 1990's, so that today there is none on electronics or software imported into Canada from almost every nation on Earth, unless your CEO is Kim Jong-Un.

With all the above factors taken together, plus a few more not mentioned, compared to the US, prices for everything audio were roughly 60% higher (if it was imported from the UK, you might find prices were only 35% higher) at the time if you do not account for currency differences, while the vinyl industry was entirely domestic manufacture and set it's own prices. However it may be relevant that there was (and is now) no domestic PVC production in Canada, so there would be higher transport, import costs, that FST, and so on.

I made it clear in my post that I was talking $Canadian and referring to the Canadian market.

I suppose I could have flown down to Los Angeles every Saturday to buy my records. And like you I owned an Audio Store during that period, and got discounts from virtually every reseller in town not available to the general public, because I was buying about 5~10 albums a week (we didn't sell records). Even then, I was paying about $13 a copy. As for the Direct-To-Disk records, which we sold at the store, well, your retail prices are higher than my wholesale prices.

Regards.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 13 Jan 2017, 04:31 pm
Maybe Forbes has the answer?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffreymorrison/2014/03/16/is-high-end-audio-worth-it/#736815b03935 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffreymorrison/2014/03/16/is-high-end-audio-worth-it/#736815b03935)

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Folsom on 13 Jan 2017, 08:06 pm
IMHO - the trend that killed the audio market was subjectivism. The start was late 70's. Pure, 100% snake oil.

* Directional cables????
* People poo-pooed parametric equalizers and then bought "network" interconnects????
* Cryogenically dipped "whatever"????
* Zelkova tree stands (what the heck is a zelkova tree)????
* 100W class A amplifiers (really????) and single ended Triode with 300B (and to think Western Electric were so proud when they got rid of that awful garbage)???
* Weight rings for your CDs????
* Bybee quantum filters????
* How much does a boulder amp weigh??? And one could get probably 15 amps from Crown at the same price...
* "Objective" style fake ranking - e.g. putting a Arnie Nudell designed 2 meter high multi-unit line array with a small D'Appolito "monitor" in the same list (and giving the former 100pts while the latter only 78pts - Huh - how do you even build a room where you could compare the two)?????
* "Audio grade" capacitors, resistors, inductors and 110v outlets...


What a strange little world you live in... All of those things are reasons why there's still high end audio.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: assafl on 14 Jan 2017, 10:20 pm
What a strange little world you live in... All of those things are reasons why there's still high end audio.

LOL - Not that strange - Like most, I allow a bit of magical thinking in (for example - a clean, neat, symmetrical PCB layout - albeit inaudible - I apply magical thinking rationalization by saying it is easier to fix and looks nicer).

But the list is downright insulting and takes money from loudspeakers (which can always be better!).
 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: sdolezalek on 15 Jan 2017, 04:50 am
Reality is that for most folks their only "reference" point for music is their ear buds, even though a great audio system might sound "different," they don't have a reference point that matters.  If your world was entirely black and white and someone showed you a color television, you might think it was interesting, but your black and white reference point would give you no basis to judge whether all those colors were real.  I literally think that is what people who have no good reference point hear when they hear a great audio system.

I wonder whether the percentage of people who appreciate high end audio approximates the percentage that regularly attend either a small jazz club or a classical quartet in a live performance?  I assume those are pretty small audiences.  Maybe a symphony hall is a bit bigger audience, but depending on where you sit acoustics could be a lot worse than in your living room.

Large rock bands and the like don't apply because I don't consider that high fidelity sound (although it may be a reference point for your subwoofer).   

As a result, they simply don't care.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 15 Jan 2017, 11:17 am
Reality is that for most folks their only "reference" point for music is their ear buds, even though a great audio system might sound "different," they don't have a reference point that matters.  If your world was entirely black and white and someone showed you a color television, you might think it was interesting, but your black and white reference point would give you no basis to judge whether all those colors were real.  I literally think that is what people who have no good reference point hear when they hear a great audio system.

I wonder whether the percentage of people who appreciate high end audio approximates the percentage that regularly attend either a small jazz club or a classical quartet in a live performance?  I assume those are pretty small audiences.  Maybe a symphony hall is a bit bigger audience, but depending on where you sit acoustics could be a lot worse than in your living room.

Large rock bands and the like don't apply because I don't consider that high fidelity sound (although it may be a reference point for your subwoofer).   

As a result, they simply don't care.

+1

And I would add that convenience is a huge factor in modern life. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 15 Jan 2017, 01:23 pm

As a result, they simply don't care.

But I also agree with what has already been written. I, too have brought people to hear really good systems and frankly, some people just don't care to begin with. I have one friend who loves his own type of music - does DJ'ing sometimes on small community radio stations - buys cassettes to listen on his Toyota 4Runner system and couldn't care less about how accurate a system sounds. I've run into several other people who just don't care about great stereo systems.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: macrojack on 15 Jan 2017, 01:43 pm
Guys, isn't it high time we acknowledge that we are fetishists? We are snobs. We feel that there is an absolute minimum standard that must be applied to sound reproduction. Anything that performs below that arbitrary assignment is dismissed as mid-fi and most of us seem to feel pity for those who know no better than to live with such garbage. Pretty arrogant of us I'd say.
I find it strange that a site which vigilantly and assertively forbids discussion of religion, is itself a gathering place for a religious cult. Isn't that what we are? To a man (and occasional woman) we insist that we have found the one true approach, the unassailable best way to enjoy music. Sure there are pretenders out there like Bose or Beats who ride a big splashy marketing campaign to financial success but they are the equivalent of TV evangelists. We know that their offerings are misleading and that they have no concern for the well being of their marks. These companies are just in it for the money. They do not proceed with the reverence (reference?) that our holy vendors embrace and espouse. Poor misguided sheep. Will they ever see the light? If only they heard our gospel and understood what we have discovered, they too could be saved!
Perhaps we should set up missions in our community where those of adequate means can become acquainted with heaven as we know it. From what I understand there are system owners out there who can't even name the brand of speakers they use, much less the model number, iteration or mod status. The poor well-intentioned fools think that a tweak is a mis-spelling of Miley Cyrus's signature move. They should thank the Lord above that we are standing in the wings to piously and patiently rescue their poor souls. How do we get the word out?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 15 Jan 2017, 02:57 pm
1. I don't believe it's snobbery. I'm satisfied with listening to my Tivoli radio when I'm working in my den. Tuned to a classical station. I see HiFi as an acquired taste, certainly not "born with it", to coin a phrase.

2. True, lots of people don't give Hi Fi sound a shrug. That's their choice and I have no issue with it. Maybe the dealers do, but that's because their livelihoods depend on selling hi-end. I don't care for fine wines or vintage cars. Or designer suits. It's the consumer's choice. So what?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: macrojack on 15 Jan 2017, 03:20 pm
1. I don't believe it's snobbery. I'm satisfied with listening to my Tivoli radio when I'm working in my den. Tuned to a classical station. I see HiFi as an acquired taste, certainly not "born with it", to coin a phrase.

2. True, lots of people don't give Hi Fi sound a shrug. That's their choice and I have no issue with it. Maybe the dealers do, but that's because their livelihoods depend on selling hi-end. I don't care for fine wines or vintage cars. Or designer suits. It's the consumer's choice. So what?
My comment wasn't directed toward personal choices but rather the frequently espoused and collectively agreed upon belief that there is something superior to be found in hi-end audio. Of course there is for a tiny percentage of cognoscenti but why not just go on living with our personal choice rather than congratulating ourselves for having risen above the majority who can't be bothered with our brand of eccentricity?
I know people who have extraordinary good taste, produce wonderful silent art or grow all their own food. They could show us the way in any number of more practical pursuits than a sound system, and yet we join in feeling sorry for their state of un-enlightenment because they have never signed on to our fetishistic cult.
I'm just pointing out a philosophical misstep that I feel many of us have wrongly adopted. Harry Pearson, that arrogant sophist with a Hugh Hefner level derangement, is primarily responsible for cultivating the snobbery. Now he's gone. Let's clean up his mess together. Inclusion always works better than exclusion. BTW, what is our goal?
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 15 Jan 2017, 04:32 pm
To a man (and occasional woman) we insist that we have found the one true approach, the unassailable best way to enjoy music. Sure there are pretenders out there like Bose or Beats who ride a big splashy marketing campaign to financial success but they are the equivalent of TV evangelists. We know that their offerings are misleading and that they have no concern for the well being of their marks. These companies are just in it for the money. They do not proceed with the reverence (reference?) that our holy vendors embrace and espouse. Poor misguided sheep. Will they ever see the light? If only they heard our gospel and understood what we have discovered, they too could be saved!


One time at an old job at few years ago, some young guys were talking about how great Bose headphones were. I said, well, they're not that great. There are a lot of much better headphones out there...." I was interrupted with a forceful "Bose are great!"

It can be a tough sell in our heavily marketed world.

In the maintenance room, someone brought in an older tower Bosewave radio. They were blasting it loud. How they could listen to it for more than 15 seconds (my limit) was beyond me. Truly painful.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Jan 2017, 05:10 pm
Lots of good posts here, and when you add them all together, that is what happened to hifi. I am very thankful to have been a dealer back in the 80's.

Home Theater played a big part in the demise of B&M stores. HT was the new kid on the block. No way Audio stores could compete with the big box stores and many closed. Over the years, some stores had to close because they lost their lease. Why? Who knows?

No middle class today as Dave says? Even Disney says that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2015/06/12/how-theme-parks-like-disney-world-left-the-middle-class-behind/?utm_term=.8ab775068453

Many here are 50 and older, we are not getting any younger, and the young are mainly stuck on their cell phones trying to win prizes on their favorite radio stations.

If I was in a big metro area today and wanted to sell audio, I would sell vintage gear with a DIY shop. Many here are doing more DIY, it feels good to build a system that sounds so great. The Internet is the reason for that.

The biggest difference today and the 80's, there is much more C&C gear today that sounds great. :thumb:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: sdolezalek on 15 Jan 2017, 06:12 pm
Let me add one other factor that matters in today's Internet-centric world:

High-end audiophilia is a solitary and individual sport.  You can't be texting/talking/watching video AND be seriously listening.  Who really wants to have a bunch of friends over and sit there silently just listening, not talking, for hours. Who has the time to listen carefully for hours, without doing something else, like typing, reading, etc. that distracts from pure listening. 

Although the Internet is accused of driving people into isolation in front of their screen/headphone combinations, we have substituted multitasking for social interaction.  Quiet, attentive listening is neither social, nor multitasking. 

Only hi-def video plus great audio is capable of sufficiently holding our attention that you can get a group of people sitting silently for an hour or more.   I'm not sure there is any level of audio system that can pull that off...
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Armaegis on 15 Jan 2017, 06:15 pm
Let me add one other factor that matters in today's Internet-centric world:

High-end audiophilia is a solitary and individual sport

This is one aspect that I like about the headphone part of the hobby. It is much easier to organize meetups and have people bring in their headphone gear than it is for speaker folks.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 15 Jan 2017, 07:51 pm
A great thread and a worthwhile discussion, this. It's very useful to step back and reassess perspective.

My broad view is that enthusiasm went from the novelty of good sound (decent bass in particular, thanks to Acoustic Research) in the home, such that people would sit around and listen in the early 70's, to the novelty of almost limitless choice and convenience, starting with the Sony Walkman, getting a big boost by the iPod and iTunes and leading to streaming of various kinds today.

The convenience factor was so strong it trumped ultimate sound quality, but it led to headphone listening with a resultant acceleration in development in that field. Now, for most, the most affordable access to good fidelity is the headphone. For most, also, realistic imaging and soundstaging don't count for much, so their lack in headphone listening is not an issue at all. Listening while working is another realm and for that something like the Tivoli is surprisingly adequate and desirable—lacking, as it does, LCD display and exotic processing and thus ensuring a longer ultimate lifespan.

For the immersive experience, then, it seems that for the majority there is headphone listening, home theater and let's not forget car audio.

For my part, when I approach recording and mixing my product, I still aim at the audio enthusiast, especially a musician, with a well set up two channel playback system since it seems that a recording that passes muster in that environment also sounds better on any other playback situation, from earbud to boombox, car audio, home theater and mono Tivoli. Good mono playback compatibility, by the way, is a challenge.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Pundamilia on 15 Jan 2017, 08:26 pm
@macrojack: It is an interesting parallel that you draw between Hi-Fi advocates (audiophiliacs?) and religion. However, I only think you can carry the analogy so far, There is no single doctrine, although many acceptable, though not globally shared, perhaps heretical tenets in Hi-Fi (e.g. impact of cabling, tubes vs. solid-state, etc.). One significant distinction with Hi-Fi is the abundance of choice and the consequent heterogeneity of our systems. There is no single doctrine. I would wager that no two people on this forum have identical systems - Bryston-mania not withstanding.

This is indeed an interesting thread and a catalyst for bringing back memories of the various trends, companies and equipment that I have come across in this not inexpensive hobby, aspiring to achieve the ultimate in sound reproduction.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: mcgsxr on 15 Jan 2017, 09:10 pm
Perhaps the 8 fold path is an appropriate parallel to the many ways that many find audio enlightenment.

I have enjoyed playing musical instruments, and replay via car audio, 2 channel, HT and headphones over the years.

I cannot say where hi end audio will go, but the surge in vinyl (I don't) could be a great thing for audio in general.  It certainly presupposes an actual audio setup if one is to own and use a turntable.  That alone should drive some % of new audiophiles.

Headphones too, Head Fi is alive and well these days with a lot of talk about outboard DAC's etc.

I keep finding ways to enjoy audio, so I think some of us will soldier on.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Jan 2017, 03:36 am
Report on 2017 CES show from TAS.

Quote
I have some good news and some bad news about CES 2017. The good news—and it is good news—is that the sound at this year’s rendition of Viva Las Vegas was considerably better than it’s been in years past. The bad news—and it is very bad—is that there were said to be some 40 fewer exhibitors at the 2017 show. Folks, that amounts to an entire floor of the Venetian hotel that in previous decades would’ve been crowded with visitors and filled with the sound of music. Even the halls with high-end-audio exhibits (29, 30, 34, and 35) were a bit gap-toothed. Let’s face it: When you find a room exhibiting Sealy Mattresses wedged among Wilsons, Rockports, Magicos, and Kharmas, you can’t help thinking that the jig is just about up. Perhaps the surest evidence of decline and fall was the AARP suite at the end of one of the high-end halls. CES might as well have hung a sign in the lobby saying, “We’re getting old and so are you.”

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ces-2017-loudspeakers-20k-and-up/

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 16 Jan 2017, 01:10 pm
Report on 2017 CES show from TAS.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ces-2017-loudspeakers-20k-and-up/

At those prices I can see why folks may need to lay down (or collapse).   :green:

And the AARP connection is so true.   :oops:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: macrojack on 16 Jan 2017, 01:29 pm
I have some kind of ill-defined lines I follow when it comes to my lust for better stuff. A pair of speakers for $10K are something I can think or dream about. I could even buy them if somehow I could rationalize sufficiently to justify such an outlay. I won't, however, give any thought to speakers in the regions above that pricing. Those speakers, no matter how incredible, remain outside my dreaming zone and I take no interest in so much as knowing about them, much less fantasizing ownership.
When I entered the asylum back in the mid 1970s, the unimaginable speakers might have cost $2500. That was quite a lot of money back then but people like me could, and sometimes did, buy them. They were within the dream range. Nowadays our dream speaker, the one that garners all the raves and outperforms anything else imaginable, costs more than my house. The carrot has gotten too far out ahead of the horse and the beast has lost interest because it is not within his sight, much less his reach.
As we have seen in this thread, there are many contributing factors conspiring toward erosion of interest in Hi-Fi. At the heart of it all is the march toward a medieval social structure of barons and serfs. That, I am afraid, has to run a long and painful course before its eventual reversal. By then, there will be no more audiophiles.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 16 Jan 2017, 01:45 pm
I have a younger friend (in his 30's) who has picked up the audiophile baton.  His method was interesting.  Not wanting to spend significant money he came across a pickup load of old speakers/receivers and taught himself how to restore the worthwhile ones and gained an appreciation for vintage sound.  When I first meet him he was using his cell phone with Chromecast and Tidal as a source.  With the money gained he has moved up the food chain, but has stayed with Tidal and vintage speakers to develop a very respectable system, remaining budget sensitive (owns a Crown 1500 amp, a high value Chinese tube integrated, and a used Bluesound Node 1 to be MQA ready for $125).

I see him as the frugal, quite intelligent, and resourceful audiophile in the apocalyptic future of mainstream audio. 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: charmerci on 16 Jan 2017, 02:09 pm
And the AARP connection is so true.   :oops:

I think there should be - and surprised there hasn't been - an audiophile push towards a stereo speakers with a sub as a (relatively) inexpensive alternative to HT. A decent sub (+$500) and a pair of speakers good for music and most people would be very impressed and happy without all the fuss of 5 or 7 speakers throughout the room. Great sound with a lot less fuss.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Freo-1 on 16 Jan 2017, 02:15 pm
This is an interesting subject, and members have provided some good insight as to the evolution of audio.   
Technology has changed the landscape mightily in the audio world.  Advancements in computers have allowed speaker designers to significantly improve speaker performance and response curves.  There are moderately priced speakers today that are far better than higher end speakers from the 70's and 80's. 


Advances in technology have provided much better hardware components (caps, resistors, etc.)   Tube amps have never sounded better with better power supplies, caps, resistors, etc.   Some class D amps now can sound as good as well designed Class AB amps.   Today's hi-res DAC's and recordings can get very close to a live performance.   Surround systems continue to improve, with new formats that do provide increasingly better sonic performance. 


Yet, with all these advancements, it seems that the high end companies are going off the deep end, making and pricing gear that is simply unobtainable to most audio enthusiasts.  IMHO, the only way to get to performance of mega dollar systems is via high end headphone setups.  The Stax SR-007's are among the very best available, and can provide sound that would require 100K speakers to replicate.  The down side of headphones is that it is an individual act, along with sound staging. Now, if someone can only come up a algorithm that take recordings and translate them to a bin-aural playback for headphones. 


In summary, I think there will continue to be a high end market, and that advances in those products will trickle down to the audiophile who is cash limited (which is most of us here)  :)


 


Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Jan 2017, 02:37 pm
n/m
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Jan 2017, 02:48 pm
This is an interesting subject, and members have provided some good insight as to the evolution of audio.   
Technology has changed the landscape mightily in the audio world.  Advancements in computers have allowed speaker designers to significantly improve speaker performance and response curves.  There are moderately priced speakers today that are far better than higher end speakers from the 70's and 80's. 


Advances in technology have provided much better hardware components (caps, resistors, etc.)   Tube amps have never sounded better with better power supplies, caps, resistors, etc.   Some class D amps now can sound as good as well designed Class AB amps.   Today's hi-res DAC's and recordings can get very close to a live performance.   Surround systems continue to improve, with new formats that do provide increasingly better sonic performance. 


Yet, with all these advancements, it seems that the high end companies are going off the deep end, making and pricing gear that is simply unobtainable to most audio enthusiasts.  IMHO, the only way to get to performance of mega dollar systems is via high end headphone setups.  The Stax SR-007's are among the very best available, and can provide sound that would require 100K speakers to replicate.  The down side of headphones is that it is an individual act, along with sound staging. Now, if someone can only come up a algorithm that take recordings and translate them to a bin-aural playback for headphones. 


In summary, I think there will continue to be a high end market, and that advances in those products will trickle down to the audiophile who is cash limited (which is most of us here)  :)

I think we're programmed to think that the most expensive stuff is the best, sometimes it is, but you have to remember the high end is becoming a true luxury market and things are priced accordingly, meaning they have no relation to the inputs used to create the products. Things are often priced high to create an image.

The flip-side of this is now we have access to many different direct-sale companies we never had in the past. We can currently buy products with much less markup than ever before from many of the companies right here on AC.  :wink: 

I'm not sure why we constantly harp on the highest end stuff and lament the prices all the while we have the best values we've ever had available simultaneously, this isn't mentioned nearly as much as the complaints that the high end stuff is too expensive. The industry is simply providing products people want to buy, and the super high end is a result of newly rich folks itching to spend it.

Like the $10k speakers... sure, that doesn't get you too far with many super-high-end companies but ~$10k with Vapor, Salk, Vaughn, Spatial and many others etc. gets you an amazing speaker.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Jan 2017, 02:52 pm
Report on 2017 CES show from TAS.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ces-2017-loudspeakers-20k-and-up/

Much of this is the emergence of many different audio shows. The high end is moving away from CES and towards Munich as the premier show and shows are very expensive so now companies pick and choose what shows they will attend and CES isn't as good as others are these days I guess... Heck, I just learned that THE/Newport show has split and now there are two in the same geographic area. So, long list of shows these days where it never used to be the case...
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Phil A on 16 Jan 2017, 03:42 pm
CES includes much more than high end audio (e.g. other non-audio electronics) whereas other shows may specialize more in audio
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Freo-1 on 16 Jan 2017, 03:43 pm
Post deleted.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Sense63 on 16 Jan 2017, 05:00 pm
Post deleted.....
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Jan 2017, 05:23 pm

Dave, this post has no relevance to audio.  This is getting into politics, which is not allowed on this site.  Suggest you delete this post.

Ok, now please delete your post as well.  :wink:  PM me in the future please...
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Freo-1 on 16 Jan 2017, 05:35 pm
Ok, now please delete your post as well.  ;)  PM me in the future please...


Done.  Now, back to audio..... :thumb:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Bob2 on 16 Jan 2017, 05:44 pm
An interesting news bit I saw this morning... "The NFL is looking at ways to shorten games because "Millennials" have a shorter attention span.."
Could that be a contributor to the fall of Hi-Fi in some way?

During family gatherings most of the young crowd ask about all the light bulbs when looking at the gear I have but never stick around for the answer...
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Jan 2017, 01:13 am
Stereophile reports

"What are your thoughts on this year's CES?"

http://www.stereophile.com/content/ces-2017-video-snapshot#1ZgtUdD3qllXuTJJ.97
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 18 Jan 2017, 05:34 am
Want to throw in my final 2 cents worth here. It's a long one : but I think it's worth it.  At least I would have wanted to know this years back.

CES 2017 : attended it, but it will probably be my last.  I'd been going to it honestly because it had been dwindling to the point where I could actually get high quality time at the high end exhibitors left - meaning there were so few people I could actually demo - sometimes solo - the gear and get a good idea of what stuff sounds like. Heck sometimes the exhibitors would actually offer me some water - and if I was really lucky - a drink!  This allowed me not only to know about new products coming in lines we carried - and ideas for system symmetry - but also a good idea of competitors products and their advantages / disadvantages to be informed both for my sake and that of customers.

With the high end audio exhibitor list now dropped beyond critical mass & likely to fall further in 2018 - i.e. this time approx. 100, down from close to 150, and down to two floors and change - the expense and hassle doesn't make it worth it enough.  Any full CES visit as attendee is going to cost $2K MINIMUM - and I mean really watching expenses.  And the time away from work / sales. You can imagine what it costs to attend AND exhibit.  Multiply that by a factor of 100!  What's the point if people are not going to come?

Cost / Prices in Hi-Fi : "High End" audio has and probably always will be something for the "enthusiast", and the highest / most expensive gear in particular, for those with the financial means and disposition to spend. Probably no different in the last past decades where it was doctors, lawyers, tenured professors and other educated and usually well off professionals who were buying pricey Mcintosh gear and exotic Quad speakers, while the rest of hoped to buy their hand me downs used or make do with japanese gear or DIY made stuff. 

I find it interesting how some here have related the cost of hifi before and put it into context of wages and the cost of others things - and what that would be in inflation adjusted terms today.  And the conclusion seems to be : hifi - even high end - costs as much as now as it used to in inflation adjusted terms!  These have always been low production boutiquey expensive things!  Yes - we now have some "outliers" in the high 5 and even 6 figures made for new emerging economy millionaires and billionaires, which get way to much undue attention.  Those "bejeweled" electronics have probably always existed.  But the "bread & butter" both at the higher and middle end remain about the same cost in inflation adjusted terms.

These things are made not only in low #'s and therefore not benefiting from economies of scale, the talent, labor, and ultimately cost of these things are commensurate - and dare I saw - WORTH it if you can appreciate and have the means to pay for it.  I'm surprised how people will not think twice about paying ten times the raw material for a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but then try to guestimate the parts cost of a piece of audio gear and add some marginal mark up and feel that's all it should be worth!  Usually quite a bit less than ten times, I might add, even though the quality of labor / expertise / materials and economies of scale are so much more expensive.  Just a few examples :

- Many of these famous boutique high end audio companies are lucky to have perhaps a dozen people TOTAL working there. They are not massive places and their production in general is a fraction of what people think. I was recently privy to US sales #'s of a well know tube gear manufacturer.  It was a tenth of what even I expected. 

- The key designers are very hands on with everything that comes out the door.  Charlie Hansen of Ayre in an interview said he had spent several months, 6 hours a day, just listening to filters!  Jim White of Aesthetix personally listens to every tube set sold before it goes out in a piece of gear or even replacement tube set.

- They'll go through dozens if not hundreds of component pieces - whether tubes, resistors or more to select the very cream of the crop and best matched.  So that $15 tube actually ends up costing 5 times that much.

- They're are untold #'s of hours to design, test and produce gear.  Kevin Hayes of VAC was recently interviewed saying they make components up to $80,000 : but those take 400 HOURS just of LABOR - not to speak of the parts and other costs.  So if the ONLY cost was for labor alone, that's just $200 an hour for highly qualified artisan labor. Of course with all the other costs involved, it's actually WAY less. You pay your doctor, lawyer, etc way more - and they are much more common than what may be literally a one in tens of millions audio artisan.

And at the end of the day the people involved in this industry make WAY less than you would ever expect for all this work because they LOVE what they do and LOVE their customers!

Dealers - and why you might not get the service you think you deserve

I for one having spent most of my life on the other end of the counter had many of the same prejudices and misconceptions of high end audio dealerships many here seem to express.  Here's a few I'd like to share with you :

- They make all this money and do little to nothing to deserve it

The economics of such a small specialty boutique are not nearly as favorable as what you think.  Many if not most products have at best a 40% margin.  Seems like so much right?  Well, rarely these days do you sell something for full margin.  Usually there's some discount involved - probably always has been - whether directly or overvaluing a trade-in (the latter increasingly a popular tactic of many stores to get around minimum price agreements). 

So let's say after that your real margin is 30%.  20% of that will go to overhead just to keep the lease paid, the lights on, and salaries paid.  Yup - even for a modest or dumpy place.  And salaries are not that high : better perhaps than a Best Buy / Target / etc, but much lower than you'd expect, in particular for what's supposed to be more experienced and knowledgeable sales labor.  The last 10%?  That's the profit the store owner(s) and commissions the sales staff gets.  Yup : perhaps 5% profit for each - above what low wages they might be able to draw.  Laughing all the way to the bank, right?

So think about that when you ask and expect a discount over 10%.  Keep insisting and that store will literally not stay in business any more.  That's ok with you?  Well, if you were not happy with your experience at that local store that has skin in the game and has to respond to you locally, try getting better from a big box or massive online retailer.

- Yeah, but I had a bad experience and / or that sales person doesn't know anything, so good riddance! Not my problem - internet / direct here I come!

This probably happened because you've been identified as a "no-buyer" or "low-buyer" or worse.  But I'm going to spend $1000!  Sales guy is going to get maybe $50 of that.  So if your rude, annoying or deemed unlikely to buy, you get the cold shoulder or ignored.  Talk about how awesome you are, or your system, or how much you think you know, are how much better your DIY gear is? Probably a "no-buyer". Asking for heavy discounts or how you buy everything online or used?  Low to no buyer.

Do I personally think or act like that?  No, but I can see how and why others do.  And I'm still relatively "young" to this and not completely jaded or bitter.  Remember, you're not making that much anyway - so why waste time, effort, and aggravation with that class of person. 

Who get good attention and service?  Well, surprise surprise, like most places, people who are pleasant and respectful - even if they're not going to spend much or perhaps anything OR people who are going to spend a LOT.  You'd be amazed how that sales person you thought was a dolt all of a sudden knows and is willing / able to speak at length - or if they don't : how they actively seek the answers and follow-up.

Consider this a public service announcement if you want the best experience at one of those declining high end audio shops.  Heck - probably a good piece of advice for ANY store!

What Happened to Hi-Fi / Future of High End Audio :

I think our little audiophile cosmos is getting itself too worked up. People will always love and want to listen to music.  The only difference over these last 100 years or so is how, where, and when they listen.  100 years ago unless you were wealthy you may have heard your favorite song ONCE - and if it wasn't live, reproduced poorly on a wind up turntable.  Now your spoiled beyond belief with always anything available literally at the press of a button and in higher quality than ever.

People may be steering away from the world of separate and multiple component stereo systems - even the well off - but they are still listening to music as much as ever, and will still want to.  It's the EXPERIENCE they want - not the inconvenience, complication and expense.  All of the latter which our "hobby" has often become associated with. 

I was reminded of this most poignantly lately by my late millennial cousin.  She's loves music and the experience of it, but has little to no interest in owning the hardware, much less rare and expensive things, which she can admire on their own merits, but has no interest in OWNING.  And that trend to the "experiential" is increasing - and at ALL levels, high and low.  Spending patterns among even the wealthy are steering towards "experiences" - i.e. recreating such as dinning, events, travel - and away from consumption of material goods.

Of course we feel that the music listening experience is maximized the better the gear - and that people's expectation of such should rise to a minimum level.  But for people of late - perhaps arguably ALWAYS - that "minimum" is substantially below our expectation.

If there's a challenge these days - as ever, but perhaps a touch more - it's to make high quality audio reproduction, and by extension the gear that produces it - something RELEVANT and DESIRABLE to a greater segment.  And that's going to take more effectively bringing the experience to more people, and cultivating a greater taste for it in those who express interest and cultivate enthusiasm.

How can that be achieved? 

To some extent focusing more on the product classes people want - whether it's "personal listening" (more convenient / intimate / lower cost) - or more "tangible" such as record players / lps / etc for those who want to feel "more in touch" with their music. Products as a whole in most cases also need to become more convent and easier to use without giving up sound quality.  This means more "all-in-ones" such as integrated amps - or even - GASP - all-in-ones that include the SPEAKER (blasphemy!).  Yeah - don't personally like the latter much myself - but building a better one is a better stepping stone to something even better than ignoring the segment.

Where can that be achieved & demoed?

Believe it or not (perhaps not) : a "traditional" brick & mortar store!  Trying to "build the interest / excitement" from a purely "internet direct" method I don't think is effective - despite so much shopping moving online.  These are "luxury hobbies" - they need a more tangible, tactile and qualified "experience" than what can be delivered "virtually". 

The other alternative : bringing the experience to the person via events, whether audio / music or other.  And here is where the existing "high end" audio channels need to get our of their lairs and go to the world.  The smarter shops are doing this, and I don't mean the usual vendor in-store exhibits or participating in hi-fi shows.  I mean either by performing interesting events on site - e.g. "bring your own vinyl" listening parties, or even co-sharing events with artists, or even doing things offsite. 

Hope this has been helpful - or at the least interesting.

Get out there - visit the last of your local shops, be pleasant, heck : even dare to spend a little money there.  Volunteer to give them a hand for example by bringing non-audiohpiles, referring customers, giving them nice reviews, or offering to assist with events.  And if you can't stand that thought : Get off your keyboard and get engaged! DO something in the REAL world to promote and support this hobby. Peace out!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Folsom on 18 Jan 2017, 09:25 am
Fantastic post! (I almost never say that, maybe never have for all I know)
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: CanadianMaestro on 18 Jan 2017, 11:54 am
I stopped reading PhD theses a long time ago.   8) :green:
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 18 Jan 2017, 01:14 pm
Great post archer!

I visited a friend this week who I had led to buying a nice entry level system 20+ years ago.  Unfortunately his house almost qualifies for an episode of "Hoarders" thanks mostly to his brother that lives with him (both are bachelors), so he's never had the speakers properly set up. 

Fast forward 10 years - I asked if he was still enjoying his system.  No, he doesn't listen to it at all.  I asked him to turn it on (a major inconvenience with all the junk in the way).  It sounded horrible and a quick check revealed that the foam surrounds had totally rotted away.  I offered to take him shopping for new speakers and of course gave him suggestions for replacement speakers, but he never replied.

Fast forward another couple of years - the nice system had been replaced by a cheap all-in-one-box set of 5 little plastic speakers from Best Buy to use with his TV.   :nono: :duh:

So on this visit he showed me his new $1200 curved panel TV that he's set up in his bedroom - ridiculously big for the room, barely fits between his walk-in closet and bathroom doors and his new 5.1 system (again all in one box, from Yamaha).  I was so disgusted I wouldn't let him turn it on.  Damn speaker wires are 22 gauge.  What upset me is that he at least could have called me and we could have rescued his NAD receiver from the first system and added some almost decent (non-plastic) speakers.  Heck I have speakers I would have given him if he didn't want to spend more money.

So here's a case of having tasted the audio waters, he's turned away twice now to buy two sets of one-box systems with plastic speakers.  The old adage of leading the horse to water comes painfully to mind.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Bob2 on 18 Jan 2017, 04:26 pm
Great post archer!

I visited a friend this week who I had led to buying a nice entry level system 20+ years ago.  Unfortunately his house almost qualifies for an episode of "Hoarders" thanks mostly to his brother that lives with him (both are bachelors), so he's never had the speakers properly set up. 

Fast forward 10 years - I asked if he was still enjoying his system.  No, he doesn't listen to it at all.  I asked him to turn it on (a major inconvenience with all the junk in the way).  It sounded horrible and a quick check revealed that the foam surrounds had totally rotted away.  I offered to take him shopping for new speakers and of course gave him suggestions for replacement speakers, but he never replied.

Fast forward another couple of years - the nice system had been replaced by a cheap all-in-one-box set of 5 little plastic speakers from Best Buy to use with his TV.   :nono: :duh:

So on this visit he showed me his new $1200 curved panel TV that he's set up in his bedroom - ridiculously big for the room, barely fits between his walk-in closet and bathroom doors and his new 5.1 system (again all in one box, from Yamaha).  I was so disgusted I wouldn't let him turn it on.  Damn speaker wires are 22 gauge.  What upset me is that he at least could have called me and we could have rescued his NAD receiver from the first system and added some almost decent (non-plastic) speakers.  Heck I have speakers I would have given him if he didn't want to spend more money.

So here's a case of having tasted the audio waters, he's turned away twice now to buy two sets of one-box systems with plastic speakers.  The old adage of leading the horse to water comes painfully to mind.

I feel comments such as these could be construed as snobbery. Dismissing someone's choice of gear while thinking they know what is better for them speaks to that end.
Is there a primal need to enforce our opinions to the point that failure to follow said advice renders us disgusted with another's opinion?

A number of comments in this thread reveal they too have encountered this kind experience while looking for equipment. I know I have at the "local" Hi-Fi" shop.
How does that attitude make the hobby look to others. Is it inviting?

I do respect Jeff's opinion on all things audio. He has been at this for far longer than I. His experience is manifold. Then again I have my own experience/opinions like everyone else.

There are those here that would look down on what gear I have but then I'm ok with that. I can easily look beyond that. I learned a long time ago that the only person I need to impress is Me.
Advising someone on gear that would be great is a benefit of this hobby that many willingly use. I have.
When we ask "What happened to Hi-Fi" perhaps it's time to consider all of the thoughts stated here in this thread to point us to the answer..
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Pundamilia on 18 Jan 2017, 04:43 pm
 :thumb:
I'm with Folsom and JLM in lauding jarcher's post. A long piece, but worth the time it takes to read (and write?) it. In particular, I appreciated his clarifications on the dealer-customer relationship. As to the future, who knows? The direction seems to be towards convenience over quality, but hopefully there will always be a hard-core of Hi-Fi fanatics to keep driving quality and progress.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: DaveC113 on 18 Jan 2017, 06:41 pm
Great post archer!

I visited a friend this week who I had led to buying a nice entry level system 20+ years ago.  Unfortunately his house almost qualifies for an episode of "Hoarders" thanks mostly to his brother that lives with him (both are bachelors), so he's never had the speakers properly set up. 

Fast forward 10 years - I asked if he was still enjoying his system.  No, he doesn't listen to it at all.  I asked him to turn it on (a major inconvenience with all the junk in the way).  It sounded horrible and a quick check revealed that the foam surrounds had totally rotted away.  I offered to take him shopping for new speakers and of course gave him suggestions for replacement speakers, but he never replied.

Fast forward another couple of years - the nice system had been replaced by a cheap all-in-one-box set of 5 little plastic speakers from Best Buy to use with his TV.   :nono: :duh:

So on this visit he showed me his new $1200 curved panel TV that he's set up in his bedroom - ridiculously big for the room, barely fits between his walk-in closet and bathroom doors and his new 5.1 system (again all in one box, from Yamaha).  I was so disgusted I wouldn't let him turn it on.  Damn speaker wires are 22 gauge.  What upset me is that he at least could have called me and we could have rescued his NAD receiver from the first system and added some almost decent (non-plastic) speakers.  Heck I have speakers I would have given him if he didn't want to spend more money.

So here's a case of having tasted the audio waters, he's turned away twice now to buy two sets of one-box systems with plastic speakers.  The old adage of leading the horse to water comes painfully to mind.


Just like MJK's post... entry level systems aren't high end audio and no system is gonna be good without decent set-up. You can't just give a person some low-end (relatively) speakers and say they had a taste of high end audio.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 18 Jan 2017, 07:29 pm

Just like MJK's post... entry level systems aren't high end audio and no system is gonna be good without decent set-up. You can't just give a person some low-end (relatively) speakers and say they had a taste of high end audio.

Bob, I did regret my behavior but the point was that I was a phone call away and he dissed my advice.

Dave, I purposely didn't specify the speakers because I felt enough like an elitist with my post without trying to define what qualifies as high-end.  The speakers are from a brand I had much respect for and in fact I owned the next generation of the same speaker.  It was a speaker that I enjoyed more than nearly all the speakers I've ever heard.  I honestly doubt if he'd owned $20,000 speakers it would have made any difference.  But I do agree regarding setup, but we've all seen even worse setups than his. 

Again, exposure to the "good stuff" isn't enough to guarantee everyone will be a life-time devotee.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: mcgsxr on 18 Jan 2017, 08:10 pm
Perhaps it is because I am better educated about what is out there these days, but I feel that the high end is nothing I will ever own.

I won't sell a car or house to afford it.  I guess I am the bad "low or no buyer" after all!

I get much musical satisfaction these days, with less than 5K invested (in gear, my music collection represents way more $ spent).  I actually self identify my gear as mid fi, since I know what hi fi really is.  Yet every "normal" person I know who comes over thinks I am the hi fi wing nut!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Letitroll98 on 18 Jan 2017, 08:57 pm
Audiophilia is a nitch market anyway, so reflecting on the shrinking middle class it doesn't take much of a move to dry up the market for mid priced high end gear leading to the closing of many shops.  Those that survive make it on installs and upper high end.  The paradigm shift to online retailers for low and mid priced is quite natural, you need to sell more units to make a profit.  As a happy consequence this leads to a much wider selection of gear in the low to mid priced segment, you just can't go to a store and listen to it.

No matter how lowly your system, we are all listening to hifi.  Cheap & Cheerful is full of inexpensive systems that are way above what you can get at a big box store.  To quote the late Carl Sagan, "...how tiny and, insignificant and how... rare and precious we all are".  The simple, or not so simple, act of putting together a musically satisfying system is your entry into the high end.  We are all audiophiles listening to hifi.  Hifi isn't dead or dying, it's just changing.
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: JLM on 18 Jan 2017, 09:01 pm
Perhaps it is because I am better educated about what is out there these days, but I feel that the high end is nothing I will ever own.

I won't sell a car or house to afford it.  I guess I am the bad "low or no buyer" after all!

I get much musical satisfaction these days, with less than 5K invested (in gear, my music collection represents way more $ spent).  I actually self identify my gear as mid fi, since I know what hi fi really is.  Yet every "normal" person I know who comes over thinks I am the hi fi wing nut!

Agreed with your sense of financial responsibilities. 

I attended Axpona the last couple of years, and it may be sour grapes but I much prefer my $7000 MSRP system to almost all the systems there.  As a big believer of good design (that doesn't have to cost much) versus huge monies spent on aesthetics I don't associate dollar amounts with sonic quality of audio gear. 

It's never been a better time to get "good-fi" at a good price.  Good gear is available at very reasonable prices.  Innovative products, like DAC/preamps/headphone amps, work really well in digital only systems or small/personal space environments.  And active speakers are showing up to save space/money.  Now with services like Tidal you don't have to buy a music library.  So you can have a "real" small scale high-end system for $3000 including music. 

And yes, we are not normal.  :green: 
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: undertow on 18 Jan 2017, 09:24 pm
Axpona, and shows like that rarely pan out for really small companies, and / or the better built equipment as they may get exposure, but sales are nearly impossible. In a way all these additional audio shows may be hurting more than helping this industry as a whole with the downside being exposed to systems and performance problems.

I have come to this conclusion after figuring out that these shows do 2 things ...

1- Allow a lot of tire kickers to come and see something they otherwise would not go out of their way for, just like the Yacht and RV show. 99% of them will never own anyway.

2- Make a ridiculous amount of money for the Hotel, and trade show organizers for the actual service they provide.

These companies in High end have to shell out about $3000 to $4000 for a hotel room over 3 days which is 4 or 5 times the normal rate these rooms retail at.

And these rooms are barely fit to play an underground poker game let alone play these systems to truly sound GOOD. Most of the time they are way too small and people are simply baffled, and confused just walking over each other from room to room.

More and more shows pop up every year though, much like the online Review sites have figured out to pass the word, and get paid for advertising.

People paying out $10,000 for anything they expect the full power of a company behind it, with 5 year warranties, and customer service. Unfortunately these guys trying to sell over inflated gear with no promise they will exist in 6 years, let alone 6 months worries people.

Too many kitchen table companies have diluted high end which is probably another good point in why there is just more difficulty.

In the end its like walking into BMW and saying $32,000 is a great deal, but they can always drive that car back to the dealer for service, and a lot of included forward moving satisfaction. This is not the case selling somebody a $32,000 system that only has 2 speakers, and a digital music player!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Bob2 on 19 Jan 2017, 01:03 am
..

Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 19 Jan 2017, 01:05 am
Bob, I did regret my behavior but the point was that I was a phone call away and he dissed my advice.

Dave, I purposely didn't specify the speakers because I felt enough like an elitist with my post without trying to define what qualifies as high-end.  The speakers are from a brand I had much respect for and in fact I owned the next generation of the same speaker.  It was a speaker that I enjoyed more than nearly all the speakers I've ever heard.  I honestly doubt if he'd owned $20,000 speakers it would have made any difference.  But I do agree regarding setup, but we've all seen even worse setups than his. 

Again, exposure to the "good stuff" isn't enough to guarantee everyone will be a life-time devotee.

I find it amusing how many times I've gone into somebody's home who has bought a home theater in a box and find all the speakers nestled together, usually on top of the TV cabinet or hutch. As if all those speakers bunched together could somehow magically throw sound to all directions in the room! Maybe Bose omnidirectional speaker marketing is to blame. You'd think people would have more common sense. But these days I am literally getting people asking me how to connect a turntable to a pair of speakers. Or why everything can't be wireless (hello - you still need a power cord, unless it's all battery powered). The level of technical literacy when it comes audio  seems to be at an all time low. And the little people think they know comes from the little marketing they see which suggests that miracles can ensue from a sound bar with lots of speakers or wireless everything!

JLM - I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about this. From what your saying it seems like this is a guy who just likes to buy new stuff as much or more than optimizing and enjoying what they already have. In a way I have to thank him because if everyone always bought exactly what they wanted and were never disastisfied enough to want to buy something better - or just different - and were buying only to replace things that break beyond repair  - a lot of us would be out of a job - and I don't just mean on the sales side!

 I think that's also part of the reason why a classic high end audio sales tactic is to dismiss whatever the person owns. The idea is to generate disatisfaction, shame or fear to make the sale.  It can be a very effective sales tactic with the right person, but not a tactic I resort to or want to resort to.  I think you can tempt people to consider buying things that are genuinely better or even just different without making them feel bad about whatever they have now or owned before.

In the case of your guy I would suggest helping him to unload his no longer desired good stuff to someone deserving and more interested. This will also give him more cash to buy something new, which should make him happy. And in the process of buying something new you can guide him to buying something worthwhile. That way everybody wins!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 19 Jan 2017, 01:12 am
Perhaps it is because I am better educated about what is out there these days, but I feel that the high end is nothing I will ever own.

I won't sell a car or house to afford it.  I guess I am the bad "low or no buyer" after all!

I get much musical satisfaction these days, with less than 5K invested (in gear, my music collection represents way more $ spent).  I actually self identify my gear as mid fi, since I know what hi fi really is.  Yet every "normal" person I know who comes over thinks I am the hi fi wing nut!

The only "bad" low or no-buyers are douchebags who don't respect other people and their time and advice. And of course there are "douchey" hifi stores / sales guys as well.

But in general audio sales guys are like anybody else - they like talking to people and about stuff they like - ie audio. It's not all about the dollar bills. As usual the "golden rule" applies : treat people the way you would want to be treated!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: jarcher on 19 Jan 2017, 01:27 am
Axpona, and shows like that rarely pan out for really small companies, and / or the better built equipment as they may get exposure, but sales are nearly impossible. In a way all these additional audio shows may be hurting more than helping this industry as a whole with the downside being exposed to systems and performance problems.

I have come to this conclusion after figuring out that these shows do 2 things ...

1- Allow a lot of tire kickers to come and see something they otherwise would not go out of their way for, just like the Yacht and RV show. 99% of them will never own anyway.

2- Make a ridiculous amount of money for the Hotel, and trade show organizers for the actual service they provide.

These companies in High end have to shell out about $3000 to $4000 for a hotel room over 3 days which is 4 or 5 times the normal rate these rooms retail at.

And these rooms are barely fit to play an underground poker game let alone play these systems to truly sound GOOD. Most of the time they are way too small and people are simply baffled, and confused just walking over each other from room to room.

More and more shows pop up every year though, much like the online Review sites have figured out to pass the word, and get paid for advertising.

People paying out $10,000 for anything they expect the full power of a company behind it, with 5 year warranties, and customer service. Unfortunately these guys trying to sell over inflated gear with no promise they will exist in 6 years, let alone 6 months worries people.

Too many kitchen table companies have diluted high end which is probably another good point in why there is just more difficulty.

In the end its like walking into BMW and saying $32,000 is a great deal, but they can always drive that car back to the dealer for service, and a lot of included forward moving satisfaction. This is not the case selling somebody a $32,000 system that only has 2 speakers, and a digital music player!

Its true that shows often are not going to pan out for small manufacturers or dealers alike. It amazing nonetheless how many new people and companies - both on the manufacturing and sales side - still decide to jump in despite the odds!

Remember though that Hewelt Packard, Apple and countless other companies literally started on kitchen tables - or at best, garage workbenches!

And on another front : while the reliability and longevity of many of these companies might be tenuous, when it comes to a boutique industry such as this, part of the joy is getting more of a one to one relationship with the person(s) that built what you own - and usually these people are much more interested in seeing that you are happy - even if there's higher probability of issues initially -  than some megalith company cranking things out by the thousands!
Title: Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
Post by: Bob2 on 19 Jan 2017, 01:45 am
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