Wedge upscaled

Tyson · « **on:** 15 Nov 2014, 11:50 pm »

I was wondering if it was possible to take the basic layout of the little Wedge OB MMTMM with side wing and use it for bigger drivers? Specifically, I have 4 of the B&G Neo10 drivers and a Neo3 that I'd like to try it with. Obviously it would be a lot taller than the wedge, but it seems like it would be do-able, and based on the sound quality able to be extracted from the wedge baffle approach, it might even be amazing sounding. Oh, I also have 2 of the 12 inch OB woofers with servo amp (per speaker, 4 total). I figure as long as I get the tweeter around ear height in the final design, it will be OK. My main question is how wide the front baffle should be, and how deep the side baffle should extend backward.

S Clark · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 02:13 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 15 Nov 2014, 11:50 pm

I was wondering if it was possible to take the basic layout of the little Wedge OB MMTMM with side wing and use it for bigger drivers? Specifically, I have 4 of the B&G Neo10 drivers and a Neo3 that I'd like to try it with. Obviously it would be a lot taller than the wedge, but it seems like it would be do-able, and based on the sound quality able to be extracted from the wedge baffle approach, it might even be amazing sounding. Oh, I also have 2 of the 12 inch OB woofers with servo amp (per speaker, 4 total). I figure as long as I get the tweeter around ear height in the final design, it will be OK. My main question is how wide the front baffle should be, and how deep the side baffle should extend backward.

I've always wanted to know if a Neo3 to a Neo 10 to a 8" servo would work.

Jonathon Janusz · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 03:02 am »

Quote from: S Clark on 16 Nov 2014, 02:13 am

I've always wanted to know if a Neo3 to a Neo 10 to a 8" servo would work.

Danny has said before that he has just that design cooked up somewhere as a smaller Serenity model.

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 03:12 am »

I think Danny will say that the Neo 10s would work better on their sides (a la the Serenity 7). Probably too much cancellation from them being too tall. If you used one Neo 10 on top and one on the bottom it would probably work better. You would have to pad the midranges to match the tweeter or use a bi-amping system where you can pad at line level (more transparent). However, a power Caddock resistor bypassed by a nude Vishay resistor is pretty transparent. You would not need a waveguide as the neo 3 and neo 10 want to be aligned on the same plane. Of course, making a waveguide in front of the baffle for the Neo 3 will raise its sensitivity but will still not quite match the multi Neo 10s....that is why Danny used a custom Neo 3 on the Serenity 7.

Tyson · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 03:30 am »

Oh, I run everything fully active using a miniDSP 2x10HD, so I have level matching built in. Also, each set of drivers get their own amp - the subs have the servo amps, the mids have a First Watt BA-3 and the tweeters have a First Watt F5. So level matching is not a problem at all.

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 04:48 am »

Great amps! Now what you need is a great x-over. Lots of op amps and stuff inside that box. Build your own First Watt B-4 clone or I will have a similar one done with total tweaking soon (zero feedback fet buffers only in the First Watt and mine.) Since you have a digital xover and a measuring system you can simply make a baffle with the drivers in whatever position you like and add cardboard wings of various sizes and measure. Add the woofs in and measure again. Simple.

Tyson · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 06:44 pm »

I would love to use a crossover like the B4, or the Marchand, which I've considered building in the past. The problem is that they only do crossover functions and level matching between drivers. Which is great, but every speaker (especially OB speakers) will need some EQ to get a flat frequency response. And I don't see any way to get that EQ without using an EQ box, which puts me back in the same place as using a miniDSP, or using passive parts, which are what I'm trying to get away from in the first place. Unless there's some other option that I'm missing?

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 07:45 pm »

The Neo drivers do not need any eq. Just 12 db per octave x-over and you have flat response (tweeter wired up inverted). You may want to equalize to suit your taste but you will then have to suffer with bad x-overs. Danny does not equalize his speakers (including his open baffle speakers). He only sometimes uses shunt circuits to make the x-over see a flat impedance curve. When you are doing x-overs at line level then it does not matter what the impedance of the speaker is as long as your amp can drive the load without roll off (low enough output impedance on the amp). I have a Neo 10 and a Neo 3 on an open baffle and have flat frequency response from the mids on out. Now when I say flat I mean plus and minus 2db or less. If you really need plus and minus one quarter db to satisfy your mind then you will then have to equalize and suffer the transparency loss. The Marchand op amp one is...well op amps and the tube one is not very tweaky at all (a modded B4 or mine will be much more transparent). Use your digital x-over/eq on the bass.....this is where you need eq...hardly any room flat in the bass. You could also consider digital eq in your computer (if you already have the digital info there).

Tyson · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 08:22 pm »

Well, if I can get it built using the miniDSP without having to use EQ, I'll consider a crossover like the B4.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 10:27 pm »

The wedge works...

It's really the only way to minimize the front baffle (which is really bad with the Neo's) and still get enough front to back separation for them to play down low enough to reach the servo subs.

Standing the Neo 10's up in a line has the disadvantage of pushing the acoustic centers out too far. It is basically like having a 5" wide 20" tall single driver above and below the tweeter. It would still work pretty well only if the tweeters would cross in the 900 to 1kHz range. But they won't play down that low.

And that's why I used them on their sides to make a 10" square in the Super-7.

One Neo 10 will match the Neo 3 really well and give you 93db sensitivity. I have a couple of models in the works like that. One is open baffle and one is not.

Get with Rich Hollis. He is using a Neo 10 and a Neo 3 together in a small open baffle design and will be using it to test the new digital crossover he's been working on for a while. It is going to be equivalent to the top level DAC's out there.

I might have one other option for you though...

HAL · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Nov 2014, 11:52 pm »

Who me?

Getting close!

Early B. · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Nov 2014, 12:06 am »

Quote from: Danny Richie on 16 Nov 2014, 10:27 pm

One Neo 10 will match the Neo 3 really well and give you 93db sensitivity. I have a couple of models in the works like that. One is open baffle and one is not.

Danny --

Can you tell us a little bit more? Are they designed as monitors? Will either version be offered as a DIY? Will we see one or both of them debut sometime in 2015?

I've been waiting for the Neo 10/Neo 3 OB design for a while, as I'm sure many others have been, as well.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Nov 2014, 02:36 am »

Quote from: Early B. on 17 Nov 2014, 12:06 am

Danny --

Can you tell us a little bit more? Are they designed as monitors? Will either version be offered as a DIY? Will we see one or both of them debut sometime in 2015?

I've been waiting for the Neo 10/Neo 3 OB design for a while, as I'm sure many others have been, as well.

The model down from the Super-7 has a single Neo 3 and Neo 10 with three 8" servo subs all on an open baffle.

The model down from that is a Neo 3 and a Neo 10 is a very small sealed mini-monitor. And the stand has powered 8" servo subs.

Both are Serenity Acoustic models and won't be released as kits.

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Nov 2014, 07:01 am »

Danny,
You designed a x-over for the Hawthorne Audio 700hz AMT........How about 9 or 12 or ? LGKs and that AMT? I would think that crossing at 700hz and using an 18db per octave x-over would allow good sound from a line of them and the AMT on top. You would probably need to mount the AMTs wave guide out from the baffle a little to align it with the LGKs. I bet it would be killer.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Nov 2014, 03:32 pm »

Quote from: Ric Schultz on 24 Nov 2014, 07:01 am

Danny,
You designed a x-over for the Hawthorne Audio 700hz AMT........How about 9 or 12 or ? LGKs and that AMT? I would think that crossing at 700hz and using an 18db per octave x-over would allow good sound from a line of them and the AMT on top. You would probably need to mount the AMTs wave guide out from the baffle a little to align it with the LGKs. I bet it would be killer.

For a whole list of reasons, that wouldn't work out too well.

HAL · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Dec 2014, 02:30 am »

Here is a picture of the NEO3 and NEO10 open baffles getting ready for driver installation.

This is something that Danny, Ben and I have been working on as a desktop home recording studio speaker.

The bottom end will be two 3 - 8" servo woofers in separate open baffles using the HX300 amps.

The crossover is the DSP system customized for the drivers. Will be trying driver level impulse response correction as part of the processing.

These will not be DIY speakers.

bladesmith · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Dec 2014, 09:52 am »

Quote from: HAL on 18 Dec 2014, 02:30 am

Here is a picture of the NEO3 and NEO10 open baffles getting ready for driver installation.

This is something that Danny, Ben and I have been working on as a desktop home recording studio speaker.

The bottom end will be two 3 - 8" servo woofers in separate open baffles using the HX300 amps.

The crossover is the DSP system customized for the drivers. Will be trying driver level impulse response correction as part of the processing.

These will not be DIY speakers.

HAL,

I would appreciate any information you could give us on your final FR. And your personal opinion of the two paired up in a wedge design.

Thanks

HAL · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Dec 2014, 12:47 pm »

Will post frequency response plots when they are built up and crossover is done.

I have no Wedges to compare these against and have not heard them. I can give observations from the desktop install with the servo woofers when they are done.

shadowlight · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Dec 2014, 02:30 pm »

Rich,

Are you planning to use 8" servo subs as stands?

HAL · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Dec 2014, 02:35 pm »

The idea for these is to have them sit on a desk with the computer monitor between them.

Two OB 3-8" servo columns would be on either side of the desk.

The overall use plan is for HiRez monitors for recording and mixing.

No plan for a free standing speaker. That would be the Serenity speakers that Danny is working on.