[S Clark]

Nickd, I've looked at some of the foam inserts for the 19's.  I assume they have the same 811 horn?  Also, I may have to modify the foam to keep it from covering the space next to one side of the horn as it acts as a port in the Valencia. I'll have both speakers playing tomorrow, so I'll start the evaluation process.  It'll take a week or so to get the foam inserts. Thanks for the tip.
Interesting that you like the SuperV bass better than the 9's.  I agree it's a tiny bit faster, but I'm not sure it does piano, bassoons, and bass as well... just not as "meaty" or resonant to my ears.  But for sure, the Super V's are easier to place in a room. The 9's are damned tricky to get right.

[S Clark]

Nickd,
Where did you find those foam inserts?  Can't find a pair south of Ontario.  I may try to make some if I can't find a pair that I can trust to be here before I head to Danny's.

[bregez]

That's a great tip! Thanks, Bregez.  Which brand do you use? Some on Amazon have some pretty poor reviews.

I use the Chemtronics CircuitWorks epoxy.  I think the poor reviews come from people who mix it wrong and use it as a solder replacement which it is not.  I just fixed a SEAS tweeter on a Dynaco A25 last week that the thin voice coil wire had fatigued and failed going into the coil.  A solder fix would be impossible as the heat would burn off the varnish on the coil wires causing a short.   You just scrape some of the varnish off the failed wires and glue them together with the epoxy. 

[nickd]

My foam came from that guy in Canada . Shipping was a reasonable i think. Worth the cost and effort. Most people have never heard the 19’s with the foam. They all rotted over 40 years. You might be able to trim the port side if needed. The 811b horn is in the same in both models.

The 19 has a more advanced crossover. I hope Danny comes up with something special for the Valencia. Lots of owners would be interested. Perhaps a Stereophile review? I think a couple of reviewers use them as reference speakers.

[Folsom]

There is a chance the loose box helps keep Q higher. Dampening too much lowers the Q.

Easy solution is to just add some in series resistance to the speaker to compensate and see if the box tuned up more without dropping the Q real low is the trick. That's certainly why I suggested no permanent application of bracing etc.

[S Clark]

Outside of playing around with some foam, I'm going to leave it as is until I get it to Danny.  I've been listening off an on between chores this morning and afternoon.  I've got to say, there's a lot to be said for putting a set of speakers at the opening of your garage and listening on the driveway!  Talk about on open room.  Don't know if it is the speakers or the placement, but talk about a wide soundstage!! 
I understand the love/hate relationship with horns a bit better.  What these old Valencias do well is really impressive (vocals), what they are missing is replaceable (deep clear bass), and what they don't do well may be a deal breaker (harsh upper piano).  But those vocals-Emmylou Harris accompaniment on "North Dakota" on Lovette's "Joshua Judges Ruth" is as good as my LS9's... maybe better.  But it's also true I don't lug the 9's out to the back yard to listen reflection free. 

[Folsom]

Outside listening is flat out awesome... Very conducive to OB's.

A quick experiment you could try, stuff the box with polyfill, somewhat lightly. Does it sound too constrained, but maybe cleaner bass? Now put a 2.6ohm (approx) resistor in series with each speaker, see how you like it. That will tell you a lot about the box vs. Q factor. A 1/4w resistor or two 5.2ohm ones in parallel per speaker will be fine for testing with any amp that's low power.

[S Clark]

I've got all I need to try your suggestions.  Will report back.  In the meantime I've got to get a better look at cabinet internal.  Not exactly sure this Heathkit cabinet completely matches the stock Valencias.  If Danny does a crossover I need to make sure it will work for other Va!encia speakers.

[S Clark]

I've got speaker cloth ordered.  Can't directly show, but here it is on a cabinet nearly identical to mine (click on second picture).  It's sort of an in between of the stock Altec and the stock Heathkit.  Fitting, as my cabinet is clearly a variant of the Heathkit version, but the drivers are clearly Altec, not Heathkit made by Altec. Hey, it's just the cost of a nice Japanese knive that I've been coveting... only money, right.  Quality is lasting, cash is fleeting...  right???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Radio-Speaker-Grille-Cloth-18x24-Blk-Diamond-rev-HOLIDAY-SALE-/172927008287?hash=item284340be1f:g:HlIAAOSwm3ZZui1p

Here's the cloth:

[Bob in St. Louis]

"Following" 

[lokie]

That speaker cloth looks familiar. It was one of my finalists but my wife chose the swiggly design. The guy I bought it from (same as yours probably) made a very nice little wooden frame to mount the cloth.

BTW... I went around the block on various internal stuffing, wool and padding. I eventually settled on nothing. As does Shindo. And bracing proved to be a huge improvement.

[roscoe65]

I have a pair of late 614 cabinets, and they are sparsely line with yellow fiberglass, including a rigid bat resting diagonally from bottom left corner to top right corner.

The general consensus has been to not overstuff or overdamp the cabinets.  There are a number of Altec enthusiasts who have followed this path.

[S Clark]

That speaker cloth looks familiar. It was one of my finalists but my wife chose the swiggly design. The guy I bought it from (same as yours probably) made a very nice little wooden frame to mount the cloth.

BTW... I went around the block on various internal stuffing, wool and padding. I eventually settled on nothing. As does Shindo. And bracing proved to be a huge improvement.

Those look very nice!  A big improvement over the appearance of the speakers shown in your systems page. 

[roscoe65]

Those do look very nice.  6 cubic feet is not a very big box for a high efficiency system.

This looks like your own version of a WE753C.  Did you ever finish the crossover?

The P15ll is interesting to me.  For its size, it is not the bass powerhouse you would expect it to be.  Assuming it is similar to the Altec 515, it would appear to have more in common with the 414 than the 416.  Coincidently, a pair of 414's comes close to equaling a single 515.

[lokie]

I don't want to hijack this thread, so, I'm going to stick with the subject at hand... The Valencias.

I too contacted Danny about crossovers, but was unable to get my speakers to him, so I didn't get very far.

I'm hoping it's a good thing because it's forcing me to do it myself.

I'm not sure about your DIY enthusiasm but I would advise that you stay flexible and experiment. Some of that flexibility includes:

low end bass management- I found it best not to ask too much of your woofers. They are covering a lot of bandwidth and to try to get them down to or  below 40 or 50 hz is a bit aggressive. But maybe Danny can do it. I ended up using sub-woofers and a Berhinger processor to equalize and cover 80hz and less. I am using Infinite Baffle that are actually time aligned w the main drivers. it load the room like a dream and can't live w/out them now. The ultimate would be to use Danny's open baffle subs... maybe some day.

The attenuation between the woofer and the CD and the woofer: My crossover allows for the swapping of resisters in the shunt and series position. You will need to flexibility here to match the room it's in. I have added a picture of cool way to do the resisters (Credit- Volti Audio).  You may also want to ask Danny to build an attenuating network to eak out the last bit on the highest end. The CD is waay more efficient than the woofer, so, you have some room to play w here. This will go a long way to customizing this speaker to your room and ultimately the music you listen to. The CD and horn is a powerful wild animal that needs to be tamed to your domestic environment. I'm not familiar with the 811, so, I can't help you there except I know it has some problems that needs to be addressed.

Stuffing- When people tell you to do this or that, don't believe them. You will have to experiment yourself. Don't be in a hurry here. Live w something for a month or two then make a change. If you want to hurry the process, find a  good mono reference recording and do one speaker and listen to the difference. Same with ports and bracing. Changing bracing and ports sounds daunting but I can describe how to do it easily.


Crossover Components It is my opinion (and probably not Danny's) that old school PIO caps are the way to go in certain positions in the crossover. This subject really deserves it's own thread so I'll be brief here... Just make sure that you tell Danny to allow room for some BIG caps. I would recommend trying some cheapo Russian caps from Ebay. From there it gets a little exotic (trying to find them but not necessarily  in price compared to Duelands etc..).

And my last piece of advice... Altecs are from California, so be very zen like w da Altec's. Don't try to make these speakers something they are not. Swim downstream and try accentuate their strengths. You want  to go for natural and smooth and you will be awarded with dynamics that will blow your mind and melt your face (as the Dead Heads like to say) ... and regular off the shelf speakers will sound like crappy boom boxes. And oh yea, last but not least- Tube Amps only please!

[S Clark]

Advice taken, Lokie.  I've always thought the bass would be supplemented with an OB servo, so we can cut the bass off at about 100 Hz.  My main goal is to tame what we can of the horn harshness that I hear as volume increases. 

And I agree, these aren't 30-18000 Hz +-2 dB flat kind of speakers. I already have those.  What they are is incredibly smooth and involving midrange with a huge soundstage. 

In the end, I'll build the crossover- probably externally.  I like the way your resistors are removable. 

Yeah, Danny is a detail guy and loves his Sonicaps (for good reason).  But his also is a big fan of Jupiter Cu/wax.  I like Mundorf Ag/oil  but I'll start looking at some paper in oil options.  Once I know the values, I'll try to pick up some options to play with.

As for DIY, everything in the house has been put together by me.  I've built or overseen the build of probably 150 or so pairs of speakers... so a little bit of bracing or adding a port is a piece of cake.  In the photo below, you can see an 8"x8" panel with a sticker on it.  That actually covers about a 6" circular cut out on the back panel... perfect place for a port without really altering the cabinet.   


My hopes are to tame this horn.  If we can do that, these speakers are keepers.  If not,  they'll get spruced up with a bit of refinish, new grills, new voice coils, and they'll move on.  But IF they can be tamed, wow, they do some things soooo gloriously. 

[fredgarvin]

I thought you might enjoy a look at this thread about a Valencia restore-

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/altec-valencia-846u-restore.792159/

[LesterSleepsIn]

I thought you might enjoy a look at this thread about a Valencia restore-

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/altec-valencia-846u-restore.792159/

I continue to have a love-hate relationship with horns. I love the way they look but they always break my heart and prove to be too harsh for me. My in-house experience with horns came from Opera Connsonance Bargue M12s and my beloved Louis Erath LWE IIs. Both proved to be too harsh even with attenuators. I sold the Opera, gave the Erath's to a friend down on his luck. The harshness was always in the upper frequencies and not the middle frequencies as per the last post in Fred's linked thread. Strange, wouldn't think the harshness was in the mids but perhaps that's where I went wrong.

 Anyway, good luck with the Valencias. I'm sure Danny can set them right.

Btw, When I was having trouble with the Operas, I talked with a Klipsch fanatic who told me he tamed his Fortes by adding a "deflex panel" to the inside back wall of the cabinet. Never tried it, just made a note of it.

[S Clark]

Well, we'll find out in a week when they go to Iowa Park.  There have been lots of folks try this and that.  The late Zilch of AudioK and the Altec boards seemed to be the most prolific and scientific. 
But none of these guys are professionals, and Danny is.  I remember being with him as he was putting together the XO for the V1 speaker, and commenting that the upper piano was a bit hot- he agreed and changed a resistor by .5 ohm- seriously, 1/2 ohm- and it made just the right correction.  The man knows his way around a crossover.  All things are on the table, ports, horn mods, foam, mounting, bracing...

[Folsom]

I keep reading the "anti-stuffing" clause, but if you don't understand how you can change the Q by using series resistors, the you are in the dark about whether stuffing is a full blown no-no or not. Scott, if you do the experiment now then Danny can work with the results if you end up favoring it. It's unlikely it'll be perfect as the relationship with the tweeter may get a bit off, but you'll know if you like the midrange and bass as a starting point.

I'm sure Danny can get the top end to be more friendly. If they are not on-axis to you, then you could also try putting some poly foam that is closed or open celled in the horn area so the polar pattern is more even. Might take some experimenting. Frankly I think horns on axis can be a bit much at times, so bleeding the main hot points from the horn might work to give you a more even response that isn't so intense off axis. Then it can be adjusted to volume with the crossover.

Also, that retro wave clothe is pretty coool.