[Paoli Dad]

Hi , looking to upgrade sound in our family room with 50 in plasma & 15 yr old yamaha / polk setup. Appx 20% music , 80% movies. Speakers blending into decor is important and Song Towers appear to fit the bill but we have furniture below tv so no way we could bring a center into the mix. Also likely will never put a sub in the room ( tho that could change in future) . Somewhat formal family room , this will never be a "home theater" , but I do want the best sound possible.  Looking at fronts only now , surrounds in a year. Anyone with input how Song Towers would work in "phantom center" set up?  I know we're sacrificying  without a center , but wanted to find out if Song Towers are a good option or if we should look elsewhere. NOTE: please dumb-down your responses to my novice level , much of the input I read is lost on me. 
Haven't picked the A/V receiver yet so any input on power required also appreciated.

[jsalk]

Paoli Dad -

Others can feel free to chime in, but this is an easy question to answer.  The most important consideration in your case is off-axis response.  The better this is, the better the speaker will perform as a phantom center. 

In this regard, it would be hard to top the SongTowers.  We published an off-axis FR plot when we introduced the model.  It wasn't the standard 15-degree plot.  It was a 60-degree plot!

All of this means that the sound quality holds up very well if you are not in a listening position directly in front of the speakers.  Given your limitations, you would be hard-pressed to find a speaker with better off-axis response.

Of all of the speakers we produce, the SongTowers, in my opinion, would be best for your particular application.

- Jim

[Paoli Dad]

Thanks Jim. I'm impressed, first response is from Mr Salk. shouldn't you be out building speakers? kidding, i've been reading up about you & your speakers for past few months , impressed.  I've gone from "who the heck would buy speakers over the Internet" to placing yours atop the short list.  Any input on power requirements for 2 Salk towers & 2 surrounds? i'd like to spend $1k or under on a/v receiver and want to make sure it has sufficient power . i don't require it to play extremely loud but want enough to bring out the best in the speakers. thanks

[jsalk]

Paoli Dad -

Thanks Jim. I'm impressed, first response is from Mr Salk. shouldn't you be out building speakers? kidding,

We'll, I'm at the shop and currently spraying topcoat.  I just have a few minutes between coats to answer emails, etc.

i've been reading up about you & your speakers for past few months , impressed.  I've gone from "who the heck would buy speakers over the Internet" to placing yours atop the short list.  Any input on power requirements for 2 Salk towers & 2 surrounds? i'd like to spend $1k or under on a/v receiver and want to make sure it has sufficient power . i don't require it to play extremely loud but want enough to bring out the best in the speakers. thanks

Just about any reciever made these days can output 100 watts and that is plenty of power for the SongTowers.  They are an easy load for just about any amp.

I usually don't like to make amp recommendations since everyone has their own personal favorites.  But I have found Panasonic digital recievers do quite a good job for the money.  I don't know what their current model is, but I think it is the XR57.  Don't be fooled by the low price.  These do a great job for the money.

- Jim

[jd3]

Paoli Dad,

I've been using a pair of ST's and running a 'phantom center' since last September.  As Jim said, the ST's work great without a center.  I'd planned on buying a SongCenter (and likely will when my budget allows) but I really can't complain about how the ST's reproduce dialogue in movies.  I'd certainly suggest you get a pair and get a SongCenter when you can afford it.

As far as a receiver..I've used the Panasonic XR-55 (same power as the newer XR-57) and Jim's right, it is pretty amazing for the price.  (Don't think the XR-55 can be had anymore (except used) but I think there are still some XR-57 available.)   Never used the Panasonic with the ST's though since I sold it before I got them.   I'm using Outlaw separates but my amp is only 75wpc, and it is more than adequate for my space.

john

[Boybees]

I'll just chime in that I'm a two-channel music guy - no center, no sub, no surrounds. But we do watch DVDs on the TV that resides in a cabinet between my two Song Towers.

Over the weekend, my son and I watched "War of the Worlds" (the recent Stephen Speilberg edition). The sound was phenomenal. This is a big crashing ominous soundtrack framing Speilberg's terrifying vision of the tripods. With the Song Towers, it was total immersion in the viewing and listening experience.

I felt no need for any other speakers than the two I was hearing . . .

[cdorval1]

I'm a two-channel guy, too.  And it's great to hear that the Songtowers perform so well with video.  Thanks for sharing that.  I've just ordered a pair for our small TV room.

Craig

[godawgs5]

The off axis performance was one reason I really was drawn to the SongTowers as well.  I don't have room for a center at this time and possibly in the future as well.  I also have a somewhat formal livingroom due to the WAF.  I think the SongTowers with their outstanding finish (I have not seen in person, but everyone raves about them) and off axis response are the only speakers I could ever get past the WAF.  Maybe besides nothing, or ORB or heaven forbid BOSE...

[noshortcuts]

I have SongTowers and SongCenter but today I was experimenting listening to the Talking Heads DVD "Stop Making Sense" in Stereo. I have noticed that how well the voice is centered depends some on the Receiver's settings.

For reference, I am using the Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre, a Sunfire amp, and playing the DVD on a Sony 555ES. I set the DVD to "stereo output" from the DVD's menu. I have the SongTowers 8' apart and listen from 12' away normally. The Towers are toed in but not all the way to the center listening position.

In listening to the DVD from the optical source and selecting "Direct" mode on the receiver, Byrne's voice seemed to come from the right speaker. Listening through 5.1 analog source (but only the front 2 channels outputting due to DVD selection) and selecting "Direct", Byrne's voice was perfectly centered. I had to put my ear to the center to check for sure that it wasn't playing. From the optical source I also chose a few selections such as "Dolby PL11 Music" which does over-ride the DVD's 2 channel selection and force the other speakers in to action. With the SongCenter engaged in this way, the sound was a bit different, but no less enjoyable that in stereo.

So I agree that the SongTowers can do quite well at reproducing complex music and movie sound while also centering the vocals as long as you experiment with speaker placement and receiver settings.

[Kokishin]

Hi Jim,

I'm interested in the HT3s.  Center channel speaker is an issue in my family room.  Please compare running the HT3s in phantom center mode versus the Song Towers in phantom center mode.

Thanks

Paoli Dad -

Others can feel free to chime in, but this is an easy question to answer.  The most important consideration in your case is off-axis response.  The better this is, the better the speaker will perform as a phantom center. 

In this regard, it would be hard to top the SongTowers.  We published an off-axis FR plot when we introduced the model.  It wasn't the standard 15-degree plot.  It was a 60-degree plot!

All of this means that the sound quality holds up very well if you are not in a listening position directly in front of the speakers.  Given your limitations, you would be hard-pressed to find a speaker with better off-axis response.

Of all of the speakers we produce, the SongTowers, in my opinion, would be best for your particular application.

- Jim

[jv8]

I have the SongTowers and SongCenter.  To be honest, the SongTowers blew me away - very big bang for the buck.  Best home theater upgrade I've done in a while.  I ran in phantom center mode for a while and was very happy.

Then my SongCenter arrived.  While the quality of the cabinet was excellent, the SC didn't give me a big increase in audio enjoyment.  After the SongTowers I think I was at a point of diminishing returns.

On the plus side, the SongCenter will anchor the center dialog position.  And it's aesthetically pleasing.  But the SongTowers do a pretty good job with both of those.

On the negative side, it's not the same transmission line design and the drivers are horizontally aligned.   Apparently it also requires more break-in.  To me it sounds good, but slightly different than the ST's.  And the extra cost over phantom is a negative.

Now I find myself saving for a pair of SongTowers for a 2-channel setup upstairs.  Without the SC I'd be halfway there!

So for the cost conscious, phantom center is a very good option.

[BoB/335]

Paoli Dad -

Thanks Jim. I'm impressed, first response is from Mr Salk. shouldn't you be out building speakers? kidding,

We'll, I'm at the shop and currently spraying topcoat.  I just have a few minutes between coats to answer emails, etc.

i've been reading up about you & your speakers for past few months , impressed.  I've gone from "who the heck would buy speakers over the Internet" to placing yours atop the short list.  Any input on power requirements for 2 Salk towers & 2 surrounds? i'd like to spend $1k or under on a/v receiver and want to make sure it has sufficient power . i don't require it to play extremely loud but want enough to bring out the best in the speakers. thanks

Just about any reciever made these days can output 100 watts and that is plenty of power for the SongTowers.  They are an easy load for just about any amp.

I usually don't like to make amp recommendations since everyone has their own personal favorites.  But I have found Panasonic digital recievers do quite a good job for the money.  I don't know what their current model is, but I think it is the XR57.  Don't be fooled by the low price.  These do a great job for the money.

- Jim

I was looking back through some old threads and ran across this one. It has some good info containing Song Towers for HT and power requirements.

(Actually, what got me looking through threads is that I've seen that a few people this year have ordered the Cherry veneer and I was looking for delivered pics and haven't found any from some here.So if you have pics let see them!)

[Nuance]

Paoli Dad,

Seeing how you're 80% home theater, if I were you I'd forgo the center channel issues (whether to get one or not) and get a subwoofer instead (for now).  The ST's will work great in a "phantom mode," as that's how I am currently running them.  Will I get the matching center?  Heck yes, but it's more for those sitting off-axis than anything.  But the subwoofer - now that's very important in my opinion.  You get the "full" experience and will be taking some strain off your amps if you cross the ST's over. 

I am sure War Of the Worlds is just great with the SongTower's alone, but when paired with a subwoofer you're transported to the action as if you're there, seeing and feeling all of it (just watch the pod emerge scene).  Since your mostly HT, I'd recommend talking the wife into letting you add a subwoofer, even if it's a "small" one. 

Just my $0.02.

[pearsall001]

How come nobody listens to 2 channel music with only one speaker? To me that's the equivelent to listening to HT with only a single pair of mains. I fully understand the OP's situation, & it sounds like the Song Towers would perform superbly for his needs. They get great reviews that are off the charts & they were just written about in a speaker shootout that Audioholics had. They pretty much walked away with all the medals!!! 

I don't know, maybe it's just me but when I hear guys say how well their HT sounds with only running the mains, I have to scratch my head in amazement. There is just so much more audio information which to me translates into enjoyment when you incorporate a center, sub, & surrounds. We go to the ends of the earth to get our 2 channel rigs to perform audio nirvana, yet take a hugh step backwords when it comes to HT.

To each his own, but I place the same importance on both audio venues. I think I might just try 2 channel with one speaker to see how I like it.       

[n2siast]

 

[mjosef]

Well said. HT=Multichannel Audio + Video.
Its like going to the cinema and hearing only the center channel, like they do with the commercials before the movie...then when the previews start and all the surround channels kick in, its like night and day.
 

How come nobody listens to 2 channel music with only one speaker? To me that's the equivelent to listening to HT with only a single pair of mains. I fully understand the OP's situation, & it sounds like the Song Towers would perform superbly for his needs. They get great reviews that are off the charts & they were just written about in a speaker shootout that Audioholics had. They pretty much walked away with all the medals!!! 

I don't know, maybe it's just me but when I hear guys say how well their HT sounds with only running the mains, I have to scratch my head in amazement. There is just so much more audio information which to me translates into enjoyment when you incorporate a center, sub, & surrounds. We go to the ends of the earth to get our 2 channel rigs to perform audio nirvana, yet take a hugh step backwords when it comes to HT.

To each his own, but I place the same importance on both audio venues. I think I might just try 2 channel with one speaker to see how I like it.       

[BoB/335]

Easy guys! This thread was from a year ago. I thought the phantom center was a good topic and I wanted folks to see that Jim Salk mentioned that most any of today's receivers with 100 watts per channel would easily power the Song Towers because so many seem to think that they NEED all this power.

I did not intend for everyone to jump on the no sub comment. When I had the Axiom system here I often turned the sub on and off during movies to see the difference. I really loved the sub on movies but if I had a pair of good full range towers I could definitely wait patiently for the time when I could add a sub. I recommend to people all the time to spend the money on good towers now rather then to get a full system for the same money.

[Nuance]

Easy guys! This thread was from a year ago. I thought the phantom center was a good topic and I wanted folks to see that Jim Salk mentioned that most any of today's receivers with 100 watts per channel would easily power the Song Towers because so many seem to think that they NEED all this power.

I did not intend for everyone to jump on the no sub comment. When I had the Axiom system here I often turned the sub on and off during movies to see the difference. I really loved the sub on movies but if I had a pair of good full range towers I could definitely wait patiently for the time when I could add a sub. I recommend to people all the time to spend the money on good towers now rather then to get a full system for the same money.

It all depends on what you want and how loud you listen.  You room size also plays a role.  100 watts is a safe bet, sure, but it may not be for everyone.  It will always depend on the details of one's setup.  After all, transients can easily make an amp of 100 wpc clip if the circumstances are right.

Your comment about getting a good set of fronts is a good one.  A solid 2.1 setup will beat a mediocre 5.1 setup every time.  Also, a subwoofer is a must for HT and smart for music, IMO.  It's a fact that the ideal location of your speakers for great imaging and a wide sound stage probably won't be the best spot for in-room bass response.  That's why adding a subwoofer (or two or three) is the way to go.  It will allow you to get the best of both worlds and have a very linear in-room frequency response. 

[EDS_]

I've been fooling around with multichannel audio for a a good number of years.

What I settled on is:

For music-
Two channel
CDP or MacBook, DAC, integrated tube amp, speakers set with slight ~4/6 degrees of toe in, plus sub from the integrated's sub out

Multi-channel music-
Same CDP or MacBook, into DAC, into McCormack MAP-1 that either inputs 5.1 analogue or 2 channel analog and via an analog circuit converts 2 channel into 4.1 or 5.1 or 6 channel, left and right front signals into tube integrated, left and right rear signal into 50wpc Llano mono-blocks, into speakers with same ~4/6 degrees of toe in, plus sub a above

Multi-channel movies-
Just like multichannel music except I often will run 5.1 analog inputs keeping the McCormack set to "none" regarding the center channel.  This allows me to use the .1 LFE channel just like the movie mixing guy intended. And for whatever reason a lot more toe in(maybe ~25/27 degrees) seems to help with move soundtracks.  I think the issue is I listen to music by myself 95% of the time and a smaller sweet spot is fine.  When spinning movies sometimes my entire family is in the room - so the greater toe in likely yielding a much larger semi-sweet spot.


I've experimented with center channel speakers.  My conclusion is that using a CC, in my rig in my room to my ears, is slightly better for movies and way worse, literally distracting, for music.  So I do not use one.

[BoB/335]

I'm looking into the DIY Rhythmic subs and this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65525.0