[jimbones]

Hi,

I am getting the Itch and I have to scratch  I need advise on money best spent on an upgrade to my system (excluding the speakers for obvious reasons). If this were your system what would be the first component you would change out?

Thanks

Audio Research SP8 Pre, Aragon 4004 MkII Pwr Amp, Linn LP12/Ittok IV/BenzMicro Glider, DIY Hybrid OB Speakers, Velodyne HGS12, Emotiva ERC-3, Burson Conductor DAC, JK Ciunas USB Converter.
DH Labs, G Huffman, MIT 750, PS Audio cables.

[srb]

"The Karma Circle is a place where you can offer up extra audio-related items to your fellow AC Members.
Whoever starts the Karma can set the rules for that particular Karma - must have X number of posts, must offer up the next Karma or whatever.
Have fun!"

[ThuanDB]

First off, ask yourself what do you feel missing when playing music on the system?

[jimbones]

yes, hard to explain but i don't believe the system is as "clean" or dynamic sounding as it could be. I have made recent upgrades to the DAC, transport, phono cartridge and spdif converter and it has improved quite a bit but still not there yet. I am thinking the pre or pwr amp which were purchased in the 90's.

[jimbones]

"The Karma Circle is a place where you can offer up extra audio-related items to your fellow AC Members.
Whoever starts the Karma can set the rules for that particular Karma - must have X number of posts, must offer up the next Karma or whatever.
Have fun!"

Oops, wrong forum i guess  Wasn't sure where to post this question.

[Early B.]

I'd suggest that you should eventually upgrade nearly every component, including the cables. Keep the speakers. 

My suggestion is based on the fact that all of your components appear to be on the same level, IMO. Once you upgrade one component, you'll want (and need) to bring up all other components to the higher standard. That's the problem with this hobby -- endless upgrades!   

[jimbones]

Earl, I sort of agree with you on that. The Burson and JKenny Ciunas are fairly new additions to my system. I am thinking that I could get more resolution form a new preamp and a power amp upgrade would help. But since I have to pick one I would probably go for the power amp first. Cables are a pain as auditioning is a neccesity.

[Early B.]

Earl, I sort of agree with you on that. The Burson and JKenny Ciunas are fairly new additions to my system. I am thinking that I could get more resolution form a new preamp and a power amp upgrade would help. But since I have to pick one I would probably go for the power amp first. Cables are a pain as auditioning is a neccesity.

Which amps do you have in mind?

[Tyson]

Can you give a bit more detail on the OB speakers?

[Early B.]

Can you give a bit more detail on the OB speakers?

Pics would be nice, too...

[jimbones]

They are my Lambda speakers (if you do a search here and at DIY there is quite a bit of info on them) but i will summarize that it is a hybrid OB 10 inch sealed dayton RS 270 woofer and peerless HDS 6 inch mid (OB) and Sb acoustics 29 tweeter. The sensitivity is estimated to be 88db.


I have been suggested Pass Labs and i was considering Plinius but heard thet run extremely hot and a friend of mine had reliability problems and since they have limited distribution servicing is difficult. I was considering McCormack but that is an older design (but can be upgraded at significant cost) I'd like to get a class AB amp or a Class A amp that wont burn the house down. I'll have to see what other names i was considering that i wrote down at one time.

[RDavidson]

In my experience with First Watt and Pass Labs amps, they really don't get that hot.....but this likely depends on which model you're looking at. Yes, some of them run quite warm, but as far as dangerously hot, I haven't experienced this. There's been a photo of an egg frying on top of an Aleph 3 floating around for years, but in my mind this must be a silly hoax. I find it VERY hard to believe that an Aleph 3 could get as hot as a stove top burner......which would be both dangerous and ridiculous. Ventilation is definitely important and you wouldn't want to put any Class A amp in a rack for the sake of amp longevity and safety to some extent. I have my amps sitting outside my rack on dedicated platforms which is the best way to go. Pass amps are also very rugged and reliable as I'm sure you've read. To this day, I believe Pass still claims to not have had a premature failure in the field (premature - ie anything other than dried out caps or other normal/expected maintenance related things). I've never needed service on my Pass gear, but any time I've emailed or called Pass Labs with questions they have always been responsive and comprehensive.
I've been somewhat interested in Plinius as well, but like you, concerns of lack of support here in the States has turned me away.........besides, why would I really need a Plinius when we have Pass Labs, other than to just have something different but not necessarily "better." Anyway, just sharing my thoughts / experience. Yes, I like Pass gear very much and for good reason.
Note, I also have experience with (have owned) the McCormack DNA .5 deluxe.

[Early B.]

I wanted a Plinius for a long time, then I saw the innards and the parts quality didn't appear to be consistent with the price.  Consider amps such as Odyssey Stratos, Modwright, or Job.

[RDavidson]

I wanted a Plinius for a long time, then I saw the innards and the parts quality didn't appear to be consistent with the price.  Consider amps such as Odyssey Stratos, Modwright, or Job.

Those are great suggestions.....but topology/design trumps parts quality. I think this goes without saying. One can throw a bunch of high end parts in a junky circuit and charge a bunch for it. This doesn't make it a superior piece of gear just because it has superior parts. In most cases, the really great gear designers out there will use more expensive parts (than truly necessary) ONLY if they enhance performance (ie enhance both sound quality AND/OR reliability).

[Early B.]

Those are great suggestions.....but topology/design trumps parts quality. I think this goes without saying. One can throw a bunch of high end parts in a junky circuit and charge a bunch for it. This doesn't make it a superior piece of gear just because it has superior parts. In most cases, the really great gear designers out there will use more expensive parts (than truly necessary) ONLY if they enhance performance (ie enhance both sound quality AND/OR reliability).

I hear ya, but if I'm gonna spend $5,000 on an amp, I'd expect higher quality parts than ones found on a $500 amp, regardless of the circuit design. 

[RDavidson]

I hear ya, but if I'm gonna spend $5,000 on an amp, I'd expect higher quality parts than ones found on a $500 amp, regardless of the circuit design.

+1 The parts in the signal path should certainly be better and/or should be implemented in some sort of clever / proprietary way. And to some extent, other functional parts, not necessarily in the direct signal path, should be a grade or two better as well, at a 10x price disparity. BUT, if a piece of gear sounds great and reliability isn't an issue with whatever parts it uses, then the designer's ingenuity and R&D time should be taken into account as well (in the price). What I'm getting at is that one shouldn't totally judge a piece of gear by just the sum of its parts. I think we can all agree on that.

[Early B.]

+1 The parts in the signal path should certainly be better and/or should be implemented in some sort of clever / proprietary way. And to some extent, other functional parts, not necessarily in the direct signal path, should be a grade or two better as well, at a 10x price disparity. BUT, if a piece of gear sounds great and reliability isn't an issue with whatever parts it uses, then the designer's ingenuity and R&D time should be taken into account as well (in the price). What I'm getting at is that one shouldn't totally judge a piece of gear by just the sum of its parts. I think we can all agree on that.

Buying an amp is like purchasing a car -- the vast majority of automobile purchasers have no idea what's under the hood. Similarly, I don't have a clue about amplifier circuit design, so I have to judge an amp based on other factors, i.e., price, aesthetics, parts quality, customer reviews, customer service, features, warranty, etc. Almost none of these things have anything to do with what the amp sounds like, with the exception of parts quality.

I recommended to the OP that he check out Odyssey and Modwright primarily because they actively participate on AudioCircle and that's a super huge benefit. Perhaps you can school us (or provide links) on how to compare amps based on the circuit design. I'd love to learn the basics, as long as it's not too technical. 

[maxboy00]

+1 on Modwright gear, besides being well built the customer service is first rate, don't be surprised if Dan answers the phone if you call.

[RDavidson]

Buying an amp is like purchasing a car -- the vast majority of automobile purchasers have no idea what's under the hood. Similarly, I don't have a clue about amplifier circuit design, so I have to judge an amp based on other factors, i.e., price, aesthetics, parts quality, customer reviews, customer service, features, warranty, etc. Almost none of these things have anything to do with what the amp sounds like, with the exception of parts quality.

I recommended to the OP that he check out Odyssey and Modwright primarily because they actively participate on AudioCircle and that's a super huge benefit. Perhaps you can school us (or provide links) on how to compare amps based on the circuit design. I'd love to learn the basics, as long as it's not too technical. 

Good points, and you're definitely not alone. Odyssey and Modwright are both great recommendations.

Honestly, I am not an amp designer or builder. To explain the ins and outs of amp design (comparatively) would have to be done on a case by case basis, because amps vary so widely. There's obviously more than one way to skin a cat. One would have to understand the designer's goals, in order to figure out if they accomplished their goals in the best way possible given whatever constraints they had.

This brings me back to the excellent point you made regarding manufacturers who are "open" about their work and are actively available. This kind of transparency can break a company as easily as it can help build it. Note that Pass is very open........open to the point that he had to scale back because people in the DIY community were copying his schematics and building amps for profit. All the community sponsors on AC are great! Music Reference is especially fantastic and is very generous in regard to sharing knowledge. Modwright, Bryston, Odyssey......to name a few are also great. They truly care about their work and aren't about slapping stuff together just to make a buck.

[RDavidson]

To get more directly back to the topic, I tend to agree with direction here that you should upgrade your amp as your next step. Amps and speakers should be matched more closely than many believe or care to understand. Commonly, people just buy whatever speakers they like (which is usually fine), but then they buy the biggest amp they can afford, figuring bigger is better. But anyway.......to maybe make a real recommendation, versus throwing brands out there for you to choose from or confuse matters, I have a few questions:

1. How big is your listening room?
2. How loud do you typically listen? Do you crank it sometimes?
3. What are your musical tastes?