[Danny Richie]

Are there any pros and cons for either choice, or does it not make a difference to the sound?

I haven't noticed any difference in the way it sounds using either of them.

[stevenkelby]

Thanks Danny, probably easier to run the speaker wires from the amp to the coax, then a link from coax to sub amp then (or straight to sub amp, then link to coax). Is that what you do?

Would be the same as running speaker wire from the amp to the coax, and another full run from the amp to the sub amp, right?

[sl_1800]

I picked up the Venuette's from Danny yesterday, here are a few pics of them in my room with my Orion's.

The Venuette's are 1 inch narrower than the Orion, 3 inches shorter and about 4 inches shallower,  the Venuette is 43.5" x 13" x 12".  I never thought of the Orion as imposing size wise but it is definitely larger than the Venuette.

I know you want to know "how do they sound?".  Well my first thought is the Venuette is an amazing speaker, but I will do more listening this weekend and get back to the subject of differences and qualities in a few days.

What I find interesting about these two speakers is commonality of open baffle and the goal of accurate sound reproduction, beyond that they share nothing in common.  The Orion uses "high-end audiophile drivers" and a active crossover, the Venuette uses pro audio drivers and passive crossovers between the mid and tweeter and active self amplification for the woofers.  And that brings out a very important difference.  The Orion requires a minimum of 6 channels of amplification, preferable 8, I use 6 on mine.  You either need a multi-channel amp or 3 stereo amps or .......  The Venuette comes with two mono amps for the woofer sections of the speakers so you only need to provide a stereo amp or two mono's.  The Venuette's mid and tweet drivers have a very high sensitivity so small tube amps can be used where the Orion requires much more power to sing.

On my Orion's I run a multi channel solid state amp with 6 channels at 150 watts per channel and my amp still has trouble with the parallel woofers.  On the Venuette's I will be running them with their provided bass amps and a Virtue One 30W/ch on the mid and tweet.  My multi-channel amp is a $4000.00 product, the Virtue One is only $270.00!!!!  Now if that does not get your attention I'm not sure what will.

As I said, I will post my impression of this speaker after a little more time, but with my friends, the Venuette is winning over the Orion 3 for 3.

[poseidonsvoice]

As I said, I will post my impression of this speaker after a little more time, but with my friends, the Venuette is winning over the Orion 3 for 3.

Not surprised in the least. The biggest, largest, most monumental pitfall of the Orion is the absurdly low sensitivity given the very high cost of admission.

Anand.

[jtwrace]

I picked up the Venuette's from Danny yesterday

I know you want to know "how do they sound?". 

Very much looking forward to reading more about this comparison.

[Davey]

The sensitivity for the Orion system is right in line with many commercial speakers.  Typically about 90db with a standard 1M/1watt measurement.  Now, if you're comparing to a Klipschorn that's another matter.  But to call them "absurdly low sensitivity" is......absurd. 

Paralleled Orion woofers present a fairly low impedance load (below 4 ohms in the 50-500hz range.)  Thus, the recommendation for a separate amplifier channel for each woofer.  (Very few folks run their Orion systems with woofers paralleled.)

I'm not sure of the capabilities of Steve Lyde's Pioneer receiver, but it seems it's not up to the task of driving the parallel woofers.

Cheers,

Dave.

[poseidonsvoice]

The sensitivity for the Orion system is right in line with many commercial speakers.  Typically about 90db with a standard 1M/1watt measurement.  Now, if you're comparing to a Klipschorn that's another matter.  But to call them "absurdly low sensitivity" is......absurd. 

Davey,

Yup, I'm an absurd audiophile. I also want more from many loudspeaker designers for the money being forked over. I don't care about other commercial establishments as several companies, like GR Research are already way above that bar.

See here for more info on what I agree with.

Its attainable and not for an absurd amount of money.

Anand.

[S Clark]

The sensitivity for the Orion system is right in line with many commercial speakers.  Typically about 90db with a standard 1M/1watt measurement.  Now, if you're comparing to a Klipschorn that's another matter.  But to call them "absurdly low sensitivity" is......absurd. 

Paralleled Orion woofers present a fairly low impedance load (below 4 ohms in the 50-500hz range.)  Thus, the recommendation for a separate amplifier channel for each woofer.  (Very few folks run their Orion systems with woofers paralleled.)

I'm not sure of the capabilities of Steve Lyde's Pioneer receiver, but it seems it's not up to the task of driving the parallel woofers.

Cheers,

Dave.

Are saying that the Orion takes 3 amps PER speaker???  Damn, that's alot of $ allocated to amplifiers. 

[Danny Richie]

Hey Davey,

Once you compensate for the baffle step loss of the W22EX001 then you are at 85db sensitivity.

See info on it here: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=785

Are saying that the Orion takes 3 amps PER speaker???  Damn, that's alot of $ allocated to amplifiers. 

Nope, if you power each of the lower woofers with its own amp then you need 4 stereo amps.

[poseidonsvoice]

Hey Davey,

Once you compensate for the baffle step loss of the W22EX001 then you are at 85db sensitivity.

See info on it here: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=785

Are saying that the Orion takes 3 amps PER speaker???  Damn, that's alot of $ allocated to amplifiers. 

Nope, if you power each of the lower woofers with its own amp then you need 4 stereo amps.

Agree the 8 inch is about 86dB. Regardless, the major difference is driver compression. The Orion is in compression when playing at 105dB. I've heard it at Siegfrieds house and he had it setup as optimally as he should given he is the designer. That voice coil just cooks at those levels. Still eight mono amplifiers + the Orion Kit is an absurdly high cost of admission!
Its what you pay for with a regular H-frame dipole.

Completely absurded 

Anand.

[Davey]

Hey Danny,

There isn't any (conventional) baffle-step correction required in the Orion system because it doesn't exhibit a conventional 4pi/2pi loss.

It does take a few amplifier channels to power an Orion system.....there's no doubt about that.    (Not necessarily expensive ones though.)

My original comment was only regarding the comment of "absurd" sensitivity, Which is nominal compared to many many speaker systems nowadays.  86db is not "absurd" in my book, but maybe my standard is somewhat different than yours?  Efficiencies like the old Apogee models were "absurd."

Anyways, absurd value judgments, absurd equalization requirements, absurd this or absurd that are a different subject.

I'm not sure who in his right mind would outfit a system like the Orion with eight mono amplifiers.  I guess an absurdly absurd absurdophile.

Take care fellas.

Cheers,

Dave.

[poseidonsvoice]

There isn't any (conventional) baffle-step correction required in the Orion system because it doesn't exhibit a conventional 4pi/2pi loss.

Really? I'll have to read up on that. Perhaps ask Linkwitz himself.

My standards are different than yours. I also don't degrade this thread to making personal insults. I also didn't mean, eight separate mono amplifiers in their own enclosure, but more correctly, eight channels of amplification which could be a quality multichannel amplifier, which isn't inexpensive, again. Even Sigfried's recommendation is ~ $1700.

Keep it coming Davey. If you didn't like the word absurd, just let me know what other word you'd like me to use that is a synonym!

Take care Davey

Anand.

[JohnR]

If you didn't like the word absurd, just let me know what other word you'd like me to use that is a synonym!

You could just leave it out entirely. It serves no useful purpose.

[Davey]

Anand,

Siegfried's recommendation is a twelve channel amplifier that costs $1800.  That's $150 per 60 watt amplifier channel.  I'm a frugal audiophile and even I think that seems pretty reasonable....compared to other commercial offerings.

Anyways, I've always considered a "mono amplifier" to be a mono amplifier.  That is, an electrically separate amplifier with its own transformer, filter-bank, etc.  These could certainly be co-located within the same amplifier chassis....or not.

I noticed you have a "dual-mono" amplifier in your gallery.  (Nice looking amp by the way.)
I'm fairly confident you spent close to $150.00 for each channel of that amplifier.  Still a good value though, no?  By the way, they'd easily be up to the sensitivity challenge of an Orion system.  You'd just need a few more channels.    However, I do completely understand your point about the number of channels elevating the total price.

Cheers,

Dave.

[poseidonsvoice]

If you didn't like the word absurd, just let me know what other word you'd like me to use that is a synonym!

You could just leave it out entirely. It serves no useful purpose.

Once again, my usage of this electronic medium fails to illustrate a joke.

Anand.

[Danny Richie]

Okay you guys have to play nice.

Davey, As frequency decreases and the wavelengths become longer than the width of the baffle it still wants to wrap around the baffle and loose output just like any other speaker. The difference is that it meets the inverse wave from the other side trying to do the same thing and it cancels out at 90 degrees off axis. So there is still loss. So you are still left with 85db as a true sensitivity of that driver.

This is not a big deal with a speaker that has an amp for each channel, but the problem is that it rules out the use of low powered amps.

There are a lot of really good low powered amps out there and the new battery powered tube amp (15 watts) from Dodd Audio is settling new standards in that area. You can get really good amps like that for not a lot of money. The new Dodd for example is $995.

To get that kind of quality in a large power amp (built right) is not cheap.

Even stepping back from that performance level to a reasonable performance level and have good power is still not cheap. A few that come to mind that I can live with would be the Moscode hybrid: http://www.moscode.com/ Some NL series Edge amps: http://www.edgeamps.com/ Or the new Dodd Audio hybrid: http://doddaudio.com/Hybrid_amp.aspx Prices range from $4,000 to $12,000 for two channels.

Budget to mid-fi level amps like the Bryston, Parasound, Adcomb, etc are still not in the performance class of the Orion and could really only be used for the subs. Still, you are looking at a good $8,000 to $12,000 for all 8 channels (four amps).

Budget amps like the ACI really hold it back and are not a good match at all. I heard the Orion's last year at RMAF on the ACI amps and really felt like there was a lot of harshness and coloration from the amps and/or the rest of the front end components. It did not make for a good showing for those speakers. The speakers are much better than that.

I just can't see using those amps outside of a modest home theater system. They simply are not acceptable for a high end application.

Another issue that I have with the Orion's is the coloration caused by the op-amps in the crossover.

All that to say that the Orion is a great speaker but for it to really reach its potential it is really going to cost you.

[Davey]

Danny,

I think you're confusing dipole cancellation effects with overall sensitivity changes.  Remember, rear radiation will add with the front at a defined frequency where front/back are separated by 0.5 wavelength.  At that frequency they'll add on axis for a 6db INCREASE relative to a monopole.

However, much depends upon the baffle size/shape for the final measurements.  You'll find that for "typical" dipole baffle constructions the measured sensitivity will be on par (or slightly greater) than the same driver mounted in a typical monopole configuration.

A traditional closed-box 4pi/2pi baffle-step correction would theoretically be a maximum of 6db and aligned with the full-space/half-space transition area, but that's not the case with a dipole system where the 6db/octave dipole cancellation equalization may have to be much greater than that.
This is where the greater excursion requirements can become a limitation.

In any case, you don't "lose output like any other speaker."  The dipole setup is a different can of worms, but it doesn't "derate" the sensitivity of the system (by definition.)


Regarding low powered amps:  I've always been of the opinion that you select amplifiers to properly drive your chosen speaker system (be it Apogee Scintillas or Klipschorns) not the other way around.  That approach is bass ackwards IMHO.  I'm sometimes amused by audiophiles looking for speaker systems that will match their fave 10 watt SET amp. 

The Orion recommended amplifier is from ATI not ACI.  You're not alone in your feeling that it's not acceptable in a "high end application."  As with any amplifier, there are plenty of subjective opinions to go around. 

Op-amps are another subject where you're not alone in your feeling.  However, consider that the music mastered on your shiny discs (or other medium) has already passed through quite a few of them before arriving at your doorstep.  They're tools for a goal.  Personally, I would much rather have my electrons passing through a couple of well-designed op-amps stages than a bunch of speaker-level passive crossover components.
If your objective is to remove op-amps from your listening path then I'm afraid your system will fall mostly silent. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[Tmantn]

Danny is right...the Orion setup at last year's RMAF left a lot to be desired.  I'm suprised Linkwitz actually suggests the ATI amp.

That SEAS Mag midrange needs high end amplification to get the benefits of the driver.

Can't wait to hear the Venuette and the V1 at RMAF this year.

[sl_1800]

I think we are getting off track here just a little.  I'm lucky enough to own a pair of Orion's and lucky enough to live close to Danny so I can compare the Orion and the Venuette side by side.  If you are in the market for this type of speaker then you need to listen to both to be sure you are making the right choice.

Now for op amps, passive crossover components, tube amps, solid state or whatever, I really don't care.  My care is the music gets presented in my listening room as well as possible.  What the music was passed through in the process of being manufactured into a download or cd is out of my control and out of my realm of concern to be honest.  What is in my system processing the sound is in my control and concern if it imparts some form of distortion, and they all do impart some form of distortion.  We as listeners just have to decide which distortion we can live with and which we can't.

If you will remember the Orion was and is offered to the end user as a kit speaker which allowed them the ability to have a world class speaker at a bargain basement price.  It does have certain requirements as far as amplification goes.  Now the Venuette and the V1 are offered to the user as a kit speaker with the goal of producing fabulous sound at very affordable prices and they do not have the problem with the needed extra channels of amplification.

The Venuette and the V1 is a option for any music loving person with a stereo amp, all they need is the ability to build the speakers or have them built.  The Orion really is a speaker and amp purchase because very few will have the needed amps on hand.  I was lucky that my Pioneer Elite receiver has multi channel inputs so it would drive the Orion's with only a little problem with the parallel woofers load.  I have used the Orion's with the Pioneer for 5 years now and been happy with the results.  I just like to check out new products that I think have merit as being a worthy competitor and the Venuette and the V1 are just that, a worthy competitor for state of the art sound at a even cheaper price.

It's unfortunate that I had to hang wallpaper all weekend so I did not get much of a chance to sit and listen to the speakers.  I did have the Venuette's providing working music all weekend for that little remodel job.  A true comparison of the speakers will come this week.

[Danny Richie]

I think you're confusing dipole cancellation effects with overall sensitivity changes.  Remember, rear radiation will add with the front at a defined frequency where front/back are separated by 0.5 wavelength.  At that frequency they'll add on axis for a 6db INCREASE relative to a monopole.

Nope, not confused at all. I have been there and done that with open baffle speakers. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. My fault.

You'll get some increase or a peaked area (some gain) but you'll also have a drop off below that range that will be the same as the baffle step loss of a speaker with the same sized baffle. It all depends on the baffle width.

However, much depends upon the baffle size/shape for the final measurements.  You'll find that for "typical" dipole baffle constructions the measured sensitivity will be on par (or slightly greater) than the same driver mounted in a typical monopole configuration.

Yes, in some areas (at some wavelengths) it will.

Here is the same woofer being measured in a 8" wide small rear ported enclosure, and measured again in an 8" wide open baffle.



Note the gain and loss. The loss is very much just like any other speaker in a normal box and must be compensated for.

You can increase the baffle width to shift the peak to a lower range to help fill in or compensate for the loss but below that you still have the same loss just like a normal speaker with the same baffle width.

The problem with adding more surface area around a smaller driver is the increased surface reflection problem and how it adversely effects imaging.

As an example, the use of the Diffractionbegone product minimizes surface reflections around the tweeter and greatly improves imaging. It is well noted by all of those that have tried that product.

Oh and you are right. The recommended amp is an ATI and not ACI as I had originally called it.

If your objective is to remove op-amps from your listening path then I'm afraid your system will fall mostly silent.

 

FYI, there are no op-amps in my system.