[mresseguie]

Good morning, Shawn.

I'm very happy with the T8 you sold me btw. I sometimes wish it had a remote control, but that ain't gonna kill me.

I didn't know about the Ultimate 70 until just now. Frank did discuss his Ultravalve amp. I am pretty sure I'm not ready to tackle a "finicky" tube amp that needs a monthly check up and new bulbs every so often. [sorry tube-o-philes, those were my word choices--didn't sleep well last night...had too much pizza]

Shawn, I appreciate your posting your impressions wrt the Fet valve vs. tube. Did you look into other brands or manufacturers? Who is building the 1625? (googled it....it's a DIY, yes?) I'll probably still give the 400R a try just so I'll know how it sounds. I can waffle back and forth all I want, but I really need to listen to decide.

Michael

[Vulcan00]

This is a statement of my experience and is no way meant to be critical of McIntosh or any other tube amps. :

There have been a few times I have gone for equipment that had a certain "sound" that was produced by adding to or altering the original sound. At the time this effect seem wonderful to me. After listening to this "Sound "over time , I begun to tired of it.

My point is all things considered for me I feel it is best to aim for a system that presents the most accurate reproduction of the recording as possible. This will not always sound the best for all recordings but in the end it works best over the long run. This can happen with solid state or tube equipment.

For me it best to have a system that is the most accurate that does not impart any sound characteristics of its own to the music.

[mresseguie]

Well said, Vulcan.

That's pretty much what Frank told me yesterday wrt your last sentence.

What amplifiers have you found most pleasing to you ears?

Michael

[avahifi]

By the way you could consider the current generation Fet Valve amplifiers to be a great little single ended vacuum tube class A power amp with a huge high current, high power mosfet unity gain current amplifier added to drive loads. 

Frank

[sfox7076]

I have not heard the new FetValve amps.  And you know I love Frank's products.  I would not hesitate to buy a 400R or 600R, especially becuase of the refinement in sound Frank refers to.  Jim Salk uses his amps exclusively. How can someone find fault with them really?  That said, I was looking for a new full on tube amp design to go with my new Exotica speakers.  And, frankly, I wanted something that would have a little more power than the Ultimate 70 if I chose to move on from the 92db efficent Exotica's.  I also don't want to spend the cost of my amp buying the tubes when they need to be replaced.  I won't get into an argument about hearing the difference in NOS tubes vs. new tubes.  I have tried my share of EL34s and like the Mullard EL34s.  At $200-300 each (x4), the retubing of the amp costs more than the amp itself.  Now, how often do you need to retube?  Likely years, but I have been listening to the Ultimate 70 a lot, and expect it is coming.  So, I went the 1625 route and bought more NOS 1625 tubes than I could ever use for $5-10 each.  These amps are being built by a tech in New England.  I have some technical ability, but not enough to play around with 550v on a cathode plate.  I will gladly pay someone else to do that.

I want to second what Frank said.  The Ultimate 70 (and I assume the Ultravalve) punch way above their weight.  I have never wanted more power from the amp, even though it was rated more than 100 watts less per channel than other amps I have used (Ncore and AVA included). 

Frank, you ordered Exoticas, what amp will you use with them?

I guess I used to believe in not having a "sound" in my system, but I don't think that is realistic.  I look for what best fits the room and speakers I own, with the goal of neutrality.  The components may not all work the same in the same situations...  And, like Frank, I don't think a power cable or a speaker wire plays into that equation. 

Shawn

[Freo-1]

This is a statement of my experience and is no way meant to be critical of McIntosh or any other tube amps. :

There have been a few times I have gone for equipment that had a certain "sound" that was produced by adding to or altering the original sound. At the time this effect seem wonderful to me. After listening to this "Sound "over time , I begun to tired of it.

My point is all things considered for me I feel it is best to aim for a system that presents the most accurate reproduction of the recording as possible. This will not always sound the best for all recordings but in the end it works best over the long run. This can happen with solid state or tube equipment.

For me it best to have a system that is the most accurate that does not impart any sound characteristics of its own to the music.

Laudable goals, but very difficult to achieve in the real sense.  My take on accurate recordings is that only unampfilied music can even begin to replicate any possible means of measure.  I also think the current set of measurements for amps is lacking.  A "flat response" into a resistor tells one very little about how the amp will sound interacting with a speaker which the load varies all over place with frequency response. 

I have a tube DIY setup that gets closer to the illusion of live music with the recordings than just about any commercially made set of amps/preamps, be it tube or SS.   The closest SS I've heard to get there is Electrocompaniet, but even those do not quite provide that extra factor of realism afforded by a well designed tube setup.  Tubes are just more linear, and if the gear is designed correctly, that comes across in spades.  Human vocals is where I find tubes really get closer than SS. 

Speakers (to me) make a bigger difference on sound than the amps.  The trick is to get amps that match up with the speakers well.  In my case, ATC speakers with the super linear drivers (and a high powered subwoofer) gets closer than any system I have owned or heard to date. 

At the end of the day, one must learn to trust your ears regarding what you hear.  Also, one needs enough time with the gear to sort out how the system is performing overall. 

[FullRangeMan]

Hi, FullRangeMan.

You are correct about the Olympica I's sensitivity and impedance, but the MC275 had no trouble driving the speakers in that listening room. If I recall correctly, the acoustically treated room is approximately 15' x 23'. My SimAudio i3.3 100w amp drove the Olympica's reasonably well, but I could tell a more powerful amp was called for. I wish I had taken my AVA Synergy amp and my T8 preamp for the comparison as the AVA amp is more powerful than the SimAudio, and the T8 is a tube preamp. Ever since my T8 arrived, I have listened to music with the two AVA units far more than with the i3.3. They definitely sound better.

I have read about the output circuitry you mentioned, but this was the first time I had come face to face (ear to ear?) with it. I am now trying to determine if this is the sound I want to hear all the time, or if I want to become a tube guy without the McIntosh sound.

I chatted with Frank van Alstine yesterday about tube sounds vs. his Fet valve sounds. He was very patient and generous with his time. I say patient because I must have asked every newbie question in the book, and it's likely he's had to answer them a thousand times after so many years. Nonetheless, I'm still undecided on which route I want to take. Of course, the only way to figure out which amp I truly want is to order a couple and listen to the differences--oh so simple, but not without its costs. I'm very tempted to order a 400R to see if this is the sound I want.

Are so many people drawn to the McIntosh sound because they've never heard other tube amps before? Or is it they are smitten by that sound only to discover years later that it's not the sound they prefer? I don't know the answers, I'm afraid.

I also would be apprehensive, ProAcs are not frieldly to tubes.
I think you cant go wrong with a EL34 amp wired in Triode, but it one EL34 delivery only 6W and two 15W what not suffice to your ProAc.
I would avoid Pentode and Ultalinear topologies.

But if you change the speaker to a 8 ohms, 100dB(or near) tube friendly model you will be able choose many low power tubes amps to greater effect.
Just a idea.

P.S.: What is the nominal impedance and sensitivity from your ProcAC??