Sound treatment results for compromised AV room

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brother love

Sound treatment results for compromised AV room
« on: 15 Apr 2015, 02:33 pm »
I have a 21' x 14' x 8' room where 2 channel stereo & plasma is located.  High traffic area, large openings, window reflections, etc. dictate speakers be positioned on long wall & on one side of the room. I know it is a compromised situation, but it is what it is ...

I purchased (7) GIK Acoustics sound treatments to improve conditions consisting of:

(3) 2' x 4' x 4" early reflection panels
(3) tri-traps for corners (other corner has large opening)
(1) 2' x 4' x 8" monster bass trap located behind seating

Speakers are GR Research N3 transmission lines good to 40 Hz -3 dB & are positioned using equilateral triangle method (7' c-c & 7' to listener). Back of speakers are 18" off front wall. & right speaker is 24" from side wall. Listener's ear is 64" to back wall (38% rule).

Some photos showing AV room layout before measurements are posted:







« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2015, 06:39 pm by brother love »

brother love

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #1 on: 15 Apr 2015, 02:50 pm »
Sound measurements taken with tripod & Dayton EMM-6 incl. calibrated file at main listening sitting position, M-Audio Mobile Pre USB, REW V5 utilizing Windows laptop.  Measurements are for both channels.  I experimented with many sound treatment locations, stacking, etc. & ended up with best results coming from positions as shown in photos of 1st post.











brother love

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #2 on: 15 Apr 2015, 02:55 pm »
Room modes as per RealTraps graphical mode calculator are:

21' width: 27, 54, 81 ...

14' depth: 40, 80, 120 ...

8' height: 70, 140, 210 ...

brother love

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #3 on: 15 Apr 2015, 03:04 pm »
So doctors, based on the x-rays... how bad is it ?   :lol:

Comments/ recommendations ?

I know traditional room layout would improve matters, as would subwoofer swarm, etc.. But current set-up does sound really good. Would diffusers at front wall behind (or in front of) plasma and behind listener help? 

Currently I use Decibel thru Mac Mini for primary listening & Decibel has an equalizer that I am playing with to address some of the more prominent peaks & valleys. 

jimtranr

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #4 on: 15 Apr 2015, 05:40 pm »
If you're considering diffusers, I'd start with the rear wall, with this caveat: if the distance from that wall to your listening position is less that six feet, forget it. You probably won't hear any benefit from placing diffusers there. (My room layout differs from yours--29.5'x14'x8', with speakers placed on the short wall and the rear-wall diffusers 12.5' aft of my listening position--, so consider this descriptive, not prescriptive.)

The plasma flat screen and bare wall behind it constitute a direct-reflection nightmare. Placing some 244's on that wall should result in better delineation of detail and impart a greater sense of depth and recording venue ambience (where that information is embedded a given recording).

If you haven't already, you might consider e-mailing your photos and a room diagram showing where everything is currently placed to GIK. That's what I did in seeking consultation for a very problematic room, and a 45-minute phone conversation with Bryan Pape (who called within a few hours after I sent the e-mail) identified what needed to be dealt with and the appropriate treatment.
   


Big Red Machine

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #5 on: 15 Apr 2015, 08:26 pm »
Doesn't look bad to me.  We always want better, but at 1/6 I bet it looks pretty good.

Pretty good chance that panel way out at the small wall on the left side is not doing anything since the reflections are so distant and it is such a small target.  Double up another wall or backside with that unit, IMO.

brother love

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #6 on: 16 Apr 2015, 02:04 pm »
"... I'd start with the rear wall, with this caveat: if the distance from that wall to your listening position is less that six feet, forget it. You probably won't hear any benefit from placing diffusers there."

"The plasma flat screen and bare wall behind it constitute a direct-reflection nightmare. Placing some 244's on that wall should result in better delineation of detail and impart a greater sense of depth and recording venue ambience ..."

"Pretty good chance that panel way out at the small wall on the left side is not doing anything since the reflections are so distant and it is such a small target.  Double up another wall or backside with that unit, IMO."


Thanks for these pointers!  I spotted the left short wall sound panel based on the early reflection formula. 8" of the 24" width extends beyond small vertical wall section, so I covered that portion with plywood.  I tried numerous locations for this panel with no improvements over existing (incl. SBIR behind speakers), BUT did not try on front wall just above plasma.  I'll give it a go. Would a QRD-type diffuser on front wall above plasma possibly be better than a 4" thk absorption panel?

brother love

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #7 on: 16 Apr 2015, 06:38 pm »
So today I did before & after measurements from moving left early reflection wall panel to front wall above plasma. Subtle difference SPL-wise, but waterfall appears to look a bit better.



edit: SPL & waterfalls removed due to mic being slightly off-center.
« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2015, 07:20 pm by brother love »

Big Red Machine

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #8 on: 16 Apr 2015, 06:49 pm »
Remove the tv or place a panel in front of it and try a run.  This will impact the upper registers only, if at all.

Basically what you see is that the room is the room between the two traces lying on top of one another and it will take quite a bit more to move those traces imo.

YOu have a room suckout at 55ish which is approx 20.5 feet.  That is essentially the 21 feet of your room.  I'm not sure how to eliminate the 21 foot room mode.  Can you angle the seating area 15 degrees?

ACHiPo

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #9 on: 17 Apr 2015, 12:34 pm »
What are the differences in measurement technique and room set up between the first frequency response and waterfall you posted and the last?  As BRM says, there's a big suck out at 57 Hz in the last set of measurements that's not there in the first measurements.  Your waterfall plot is looking very good--what filter settings are you using?  Also, you might increase resolution on the y-axis to 5 dB/div and center the plot as you're only seeing about 20 dB between peaks and the bottom of the graph.

Keep posting!  I'm trying to figure this stuff out too and every little bit helps.

Thanks,
AC

brother love

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #10 on: 17 Apr 2015, 02:32 pm »
Yeah, mic locations slightly off sweet spot result in the major dip at mid 50 Hz (my 25 yr. old Slik tripod finally gave up the ghost & newer Bogen tripod is taller & much harder to align).  I took new measurements today with Mic located at primo listening position at center of head/ ears . Numbers look better with left wall early reflection panel back in place. Measurements also taken with left wall panel relocated behind plasma on front wall and panel in front of plasma did not look as good as below ...

Mic location:







« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2015, 07:21 pm by brother love »

brother love

Re: Sound treatments results for compromised AV room
« Reply #11 on: 20 Apr 2015, 05:34 pm »
Well curiosity finally got the better of me ... I moved speakers/ AV components/ treatments/ furniture to short wall vs. existing long wall room set-up.  I employed the Cardas Golden rule set-up to where the speakers were 6'-3" from front wall & 3'-10" from side walls with 6'-3" equilateral triangle spacing (7' straight leg) and listening position was 7'-3" from back wall.

Comparison for 14' x 20,5' x 8' room of short wall/ Cardas set-up (green line) vs. long wall equilateral triangle set-up (violet line) was surprising to me. The long wall set-up measured a bit better!



Short wall/ Cardas waterfall:



Long wall/ equilateral triangle waterfall:

« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2015, 07:40 pm by brother love »

Alex Reynolds

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Re: Sound treatment results for compromised AV room
« Reply #12 on: 20 Apr 2015, 08:26 pm »
Great investigative work! Even though the set up you described is a very ideal starting spot, it isn't always so in all rooms - as you have seen. We can achieve pretty good results in our test room the long way as well. Additionally, low frequencies and high frequencies can behave very differently in each room. Facing the long way for instance in a decent size room makes first reflections, even without any treatment, very low in volume and so not as much as a problem. Around 100-200 Hz it doesn't look like either way has a clear winner. But above and below that, facing the long way does seem to be better.
I will offer one caveat though - suggestions are just suggestions for starting points. It is possible that optimizing position in each direction may actually come out with a much clearer winner. But I like the low frequency response of the long wall better, so personally, that's what I'd try to optimize. Since you're already versed in measurement by now, I'd say give it a go one weekend. Try changing each of the variables independently and running tests to see how they affect your response - back a foot, forward a foot, wider by a foot...moving seat position back and fourth, etc. It's a great experience since you'll be able to visually see exactly where some of the peaks and valleys are from, and how to change what frequencies are boosted and cancelled in some respects.
The actual waterfalls of the room look great though in the long wall measurement given your somewhat modest corner treatment; about 40dB of decay within 300ms across the board is really quite good. You could get less noise in your measurements by using multiple sweeps per measurement, or longer sweeps, or both. I usually do 4 sweeps @ 256k, which is good enough for most purposes.