More Alpha kit progress... (NEW PICS)

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Brian Bunge

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« Reply #40 on: 30 May 2003, 04:27 am »
What about the tweeters' enclosure are you confused about?  I haven't looked at the plans in awhile, but the inner side comes up to somewhere around 3" below the outer side piece.  Then a piece of MDF sits on top of the inner side edge at 90 degrees forming the back of the tweeter enclosure.  Then the front to back brace forms the other side of the tweeter enclosure.

Does this help any?

azryan

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« Reply #41 on: 30 May 2003, 08:54 am »
jonwb,

"-The Alphas sure are tall, aren't they?"

hehe... Brian's right, it's the weight far more than height. They just don't look nearly as heavy as they are, but I guess 'cuz they're like 2 cabinets in one being double thick 3/4" MDF.

"1. Did you solder your connections to the speakers or use crimp-on terminals (and why)?"

Solder. When you solder you're getting a direct and large connection of speaker wire touching the driver terminals. You can kinda get that w/ crimp-on terms. but mostly it's the metal of the term. touching the driver terms. I just don't like it. Might be no big deal though, but if you're doing something like this, even I wouldn't cut a corner like that.

You might want to use them to wire everything up to be sure it works, and then cut them off and solder a perm. connection.
Maybe Danny can chime in with a real answer though?

"2. When you routered your recess for the tweeters, did you just make it the length called out on the plans or did you have to tweek it a little?"

Dang, I forget? I think I sort of went by the plans and then also measured the actual drivers to be sure I was exact.

I remeber there were some things on the plans that I emailed Danny about 'cuz they were wrong or measurments missing. Not a big deal though and Danny got me the answers. I'd hope he'd updated the things I pointed out, but no idea.

"3. Any stuffing in the tweeter cavity?"

Yeah, I glued in 1/2" open cell foam, and also polyfil above and below the neos which is just space in the Neo's sub-cabinet not really doing anything. Danny I'm sure can say what he prefers, but the only point is to kill the back wave. The drivers can play in open air so the fill isn't there to control them at all.

"4. What type of fasteners did you use to attach the drivers to the enclosures?"

Danny sent screws. For the woofers they have nice torx head screws and the woofer frame is countersunk around the screw holes so they don't stick out. Looks really nice.

For the Neos and rear ports I used the smaller phillips head screws he sent. Everything's black so they look good too. Normally I wouldn't like Phillips heads and rather have Torx or Hex heads on speakers but it works on the Neos IMO. I think I had enough Torx screws though that I coulda used them on the Neos too, but not sure. They don't get countersunk so I liked the smaller phillips head ones.

Don't worry about the heads sticking out though, 'cuz the neo sticks out in front of that, but you already have the kit right, so you can see what I mean looking at the Neo 8 driver?

"5. Did you paint the silver rivets on the Neo8's?"

Yes. I did it after they were all done though. I don't know why. I shoulda done it before I was done. The silver rivets in a big long line does look cool though so you might NOT want to paint them. I think that's why I didn't till I was done. I wanted to see how it looked. For my room painted black looks better to me.

Dr. Photo,

"-Since I'm considering this project (inspired by your results!)-"

Thanks! I was inspired by Danny's assertion that this was his best speaker beyond the Diluceos -among many other reasons.
You'll be in for a much bigger change than me I think. For the better also though I believe.

"-I'm really interested in seeing more detailed constuction pics."

Ooooh... that's a hard one. I posted what I took. 'cept for more 'finished' pics which my buddy promised to send already. I 'hope' I'll get 'em soon since I want to see them myself!

If it was my own digital cam I woulda taken a lot more pics, but since it was just my buddy's and him coming over every once in a while I just got 'stage by stage' quick progress shots. Really I went so fast he would've had to come over every day to get all the details of the work.

"-In particular, I'm a bit confused about the shape of divider that forms the tweeter compartment...based on the plan."

There's a sheet of MDF that runs from the inside back to inside face. Then you glue a 2nd layer of MDF behind the face for the woofers, but not behind the Neo section. There you run a long thin strip between the divider and the inner side wall, but about 3' back.

You don't really need to know how far back 'cuz in the plans you'll see that the side wall 2nd inner layer on the Neo side doesn't go all the way from the back to the face. It stops a few inches from the face, and that thin strip blocking off the neo's just rests on that inner sidewall edge.

Damn, that was confusing, and I did it already! Sorry if that didn't help?

"-BTW: did you 'round off' the front baffle edges?"

Yeah. I used a 1/2" roundover bit. Couldn't get a 3/4" roundover but Danny said it's just for looks (I made sure beforehand) and there's no diffraction effect from having less of a roundover.

I'm thinking it's probably the same for a razor sharp edge too, but I'd ask Danny to be sure, since that's even more extreme.

You might find that a lot harder to veneer and get that perfect edge than just being able to roll the veneer around the edge, but sounds like you're not going to veneer it?

"On the veneer isssue....I might go with an auto type paint finish. I think these would look really sharp in Porche metallic silver/clearcoat."

Wow. That'd be wild! Not my thing, but hey, they're yours. They should be a one of a kind right?

I'd think that painted look would be better w/ a rounded edge though.

Hope you'll always have a lot of silver in your HT room. If there was nothing else silver you might later come to find them not matching your room? Something to think about long term maybe?

I'm sure they'd be killer in piano gloss black too since the drivers are all black, but matte black so they'd still stand out and be very striking, but I personally love real wood more than any other finish.
Someone needs to do these in Piano black! And maybe leave the rivets silver, but all black would look more refined I think.

Dark cherry's the best wood color IMO (like Danny's), but just doesn't match my room so I didn't really have a choice of color. I like the light wood too. It makes a bolder statement w/ the black drivers moreso than dark cherry I think.

wshuff

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« Reply #42 on: 1 Jun 2003, 03:56 pm »
So, uh...how 'bout them pics?  (cue Jeopardy theme)

azryan

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« Reply #43 on: 1 Jun 2003, 10:12 pm »
I finally got more pics emailed to me, and put 'em up right away.

http://home.earthlink.net/~azstrehlow/htroom3.html

I'm still totally loving these speakers. I'm not sure if I've been hearing any real significant break-in, but 'possibly' a hair clearer in the highs, but they were already clearer than anything I've ever heard.

I've watched a few DVD's recently that have been a hair bright and w/ obvious noise (the 'Three Colors' trilogy, and some Japanese anime) and while never harsh, the brightness still shows through, again showing me there's nothing missing on the high end.

I'll have to see what happens when I listen to Red Hot Chili Pepper's 'Californication' 'cuz that thing's one of the brightest worst recorded CD's I've ever heard.

BTW, never been a Ret Hot fan, but their latest CD 'By the Way' is fantastic. Every song is great IMO, and it's recorded pretty well too. Just goes to show you never know what you're gonna get from a new CD.

Brian Bunge

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« Reply #44 on: 2 Jun 2003, 03:00 am »
Ryan,

Those look great!  I swear that red birch looks like maple though! :)

azryan

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« Reply #45 on: 3 Jun 2003, 05:32 pm »
Thanks.
Yeah, maple looks almost the same. Almost exact same grain, but on the yellow side, and this is more on the orangish side.

My first two sonotube subs I did (baby 4.5' tall ones -hehe) were in maple. I doesn't match my room at all, but w/ the black ends has a classy Japanese sort of look I think.

Hank

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« Reply #46 on: 4 Jun 2003, 01:00 pm »
Azryan, those look great!  BTW, I built Danny's Alphas and the veneer is Padauk, which Danny requested.  Padauk has a decidedly orange-ish tint and is unique.  Enjoy your Alpha's! :wink:

Maggie Guy

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« Reply #47 on: 5 Jun 2003, 01:31 pm »
Ryan,
 First and foremost let me congratulate you on doing an excellent job on the Alpha's.  Secondly I would like to thank you for your almost step by step photo album documenting the construction of the speakers.  I have never built speakers, but after viewing this thread and the associated links, I feel like the Alpha's would be a possibility for me.
  As you may have guessed from my user name I am a big fan of Magnepan speakers.  I have owned almost every model from the MMG's up to the MG20's which I currently am running along with a custom subwoofer setup.  I am extremely pleased with my current setup and have yet to hear anything else that even approaches it.
  I have been drawn to the Alpha's because of their similarities to the larger Maggie's although there are considerable differences as well.
They appear to be a possible contender to the larger Maggies.
  Have you or anyone else on this thread had an opportunity to compare the Alpha's to some of the larger Magnepan's?  I have heard that the Newform's and Maggies have some similarities as well?
How long did it take you to build the cabinets?

azryan

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« Reply #48 on: 5 Jun 2003, 05:25 pm »
Thanks MaggieGuy.

The cabinets took about a month I think? There's was about a month gap in between when I did nothing because I couldn't afford the kit.

Spent a few hours on it every day. Have no idea really how many hours total which I'm sure would help you out a lot more to know. sorry.

When I just owned the Newform 630's I really liked them and was going to get the 645's, but because of all the raves of Maggie owners I said I 'MUST' hear them as well.

I was in San Diego and visited a very high end hi-fi shop and they had the 12's, and the 1.6's. Both the quasi-ribbons. i've never heard the 'true' ribbon models.

They had Enya on the demo (a CD I owned and knew well) and it sounded really good, but FAR more airy than I knew it was really recorded as.
So I pulled it out and put in Nirvana's Nevermind which is known for being very well recorded for a heavy rock CD of that kind.

Not to be insulting, but honestly it was so not even close to good that my wife and I decided 'no way' to maggies, but we listened for about an hour there just on the 1.6's.

The sound was terribly flat in dynamics -the drums sounded like a toy set, Cobain's voice sounded like an unfocused cloud (I'm sure that could have been improved in an optimal set-up, but the room wasn't bad at all).

The treble didn't sound as clear and sharp as the Newform ribbon at all. Newforms sound much closer to Logans than Maggies IMO, though still clear differences.

I've heard several Newform owners say that the true ribbon Maggie treble is much closer to the Newform's quasi ribbon, but I've never heard them.

The height of the 20's I'm sure will be matched w/ the Alphas, and there's really nothing about the Alphas that's worse than the Newform 645's IMO.

The only thing is a slight airyness that the Newforms added that the Alphas don't, but I really think it's a distortion element, and don't miss it as the clarity and detail are better w/ the Alphas.

From every freq. resp. measurment of the Maggies I've even seen they seem to not measure even close to flat, but I've heard many Maggie owners say it's so hard to measure them that those measurments don't mean anything. I dunno.

There's without a doubt going to be a LARGE diff. between your 20's and the Alphas.

You might not want that change, but I think you'll find them more accurate, detailed by not adding a rear wave airy blur to everything (I'm not a fan of dipoles at all), much easier to power, and by far the biggest diff... dynamics should be no contest.

Hope that helps and wasn't meant to insult in any way.

Maggie Guy

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« Reply #49 on: 5 Jun 2003, 05:43 pm »
Ryan,
Thanks for the quick response.
 There is really no comparison between the 1.6QR and the MG20's except that they are both dipoles.  I would have to agree that the frequency response of Maggies is hard to measure and would have alot and I mean alot to do with proper setup and room acousitcs. Unless you have heard the 20's or maybe the 3.6's with a properly integrated subwoofer setup then there is really no comparison at all.  I am looking forward to hearing the Alpha's at a friends house in a couple of weeks when he has them ready.  I think he has a total of six line arrays for his HT room and a separate music room containing two more.  If I am impressed enough I will probably build a pair and then I can do a direct comparison to the MG20's.  Danny has sent me the cabinet drawings and I will be looking them over over the next several weeks.
  How about placement on the Alpha's? I have my Maggies a little over three feet from the back wall and maybe 10 inches from the side walls.
I wish my room was a little larger 14 X 22, but I sort of got carried away with upgrades and such.  I'm sure you can understand!

azryan

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« Reply #50 on: 5 Jun 2003, 07:31 pm »
Let me know what you think compared to the 20's.

The height should be similar but the way they project sound I think is VERY diff. Tonally they should be very diff. too. Like it or not I have little doubt you'll hear a big diff. in sound.

As for placement, I've got mine ~5' from the wall behind them, and ~4' from the side walls, and slightly toed in. I'm probably going to take the spikes off the base plates soon and double check I've got the best placement. I was giving them break in time to make sure they're ready to be perfectly placed. Probably won't move very much.

Obviously w/ the Maggies you can have them close to the side walls, but for the sharpest imaging I find that almost all speakers should be about 8 or 9 feet apart max, which sounds like farther than you've got yours based on the room size you said.

The off axis response of the Alphas is great. The sound really doesn't seem to change much at all.

It seemed like w/ the 1.6 Magnepans I heard you really needed to heavily toe them in and too sit dead center to get any kind of imaging. I really wanted to throw a couple bales of fiberglass batting behind them.

That shop also had the 20's but they weren't hooked up. Man, I shoulda asked 'em to do that, but I only saw them after listening for so long to the 1.6's and didn't want to ask.
They had the Martin Logan Prodigies in another room w/ LOTS of space from the walls, and that sounded great! Huge Krell monoblocks, and Wadia CD.

One of the best sounds I'd ever heard, and at the time clearly better than my home system.

Even after getting the 645's it wasn't until I got the eARTwo digital amp that I thought my home system sounded at that level.

The Alphas are more like icing than anything. Just that much better.

I'll have to look up more on the Maggies. I thought the panels for the quasi and true ribbons were the same (from MMG to 20), and just the size diff. of the panels and quasi or true ribbon were the only diff.?

Maggie Guy

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« Reply #51 on: 5 Jun 2003, 08:14 pm »
Ryan,
  You are correct about the Maggies needing signigicant toe-in for proper imaging.  When they are properly set up you can achieve a huge soundstage with imaging width and depth that other speakers rarely achieve. I have listened to some of the larger Martin Logans and although they look pretty cool, I much prefer the sound and imaging of the MG20's.
  You are also correct about the off-axis response which is especially noticable with the lower models of Magnepans. It's still there with the 20's,
but because they are so large it is not as much of an issue. At my house I am the only one who acutally cares about being in the sweet spot anyway.
  Also there is no question that the Maggies are terribly inefficient, especially the 20's.  I am running 700WPC into them and they just suck it up and ask for more. Don't get me wrong because they will play extremely loud or louder than my ears can stand, but I would guess that the sound could be improved  with amps such as Innersound ESL Monoblocks (1400WPC).
  I think the efficiency of the Alpha's is awesome and I would relish the opportunity to hear them on tube amplification such as the Dodd amplifiers.