AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: wushuliu on 9 Mar 2011, 05:03 am
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Just fired her up. My first DIY tube amp. Aside from some basic duh wiring errors and slicing off the tip of a finger, this was a pretty easy build :roll:. The kind that having done it once, I know I could do another pretty quickly. I am really fascinated by tubes, both aurally and historically. Will be a few days before I'll be able to try it out proper. Not very attractive for now, but whatever.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43922)
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Another SSE builder. :thumb: Not going to ask about the thumb :scratch: but suffice it to say I managed to shed some blood with my builds (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73713.0) but after completion it was well worth it.
I see from the board that you are using the solid state rectification. Might I suggest grabbing a octal tube socket and get yourself a Sovtek 5AR4 and just go with tubed rectification. The sound is so smooth and wonderful. You might get a bit more power from solid state rectification (I'm getting 8 watts @ 5% THD in SET, so I doubt it) but the more tubes the better.
Also give the UL option a try it's not quite as wonderful sounding IMO, but you will get 15 watts possibly a bit more. :thumb:
Also looks like you're using 6550s, give some KT88s a try.
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hey pez. the transformer doesn't come with 5v rectifier winding but that's okay i'll explore all that later, flipside is it fits in this enclosure easier than an edcor would. i wanted to start very basic and then go from there, add choke, cfb, ul switch, etc over time...
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That's the great thing about the SSE, it's very flexible and allows so much experimentation. I definitely was able to dial in my tastes based on the plethora of options.
As far as the Edcor PT they are big and expensive. Give this one a try: https://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=2270013
It's actually a Hammond PT that has been relabeled Allied and is beyond superb. I ended up using it instead on the Edcor because of both price and performance.
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That's the great thing about the SSE, it's very flexible and allows so much experimentation. I definitely was able to dial in my tastes based on the plethora of options.
As far as the Edcor PT they are big and expensive. Give this one a try: https://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=2270013
It's actually a Hammond PT that has been relabeled Allied and is beyond superb. I ended up using it instead on the Edcor because of both price and performance.
thanks! looks like it just might fit inside too... and no 6 week wait...
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Haha ya, Edcor isn't exactly prompt, yet another great thing about the Allied. You'll get it within days most likely.
Glad I could help. :)
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I'll be interested in your experiences with the SSE. Was going to build one once. Hope you can compare it to classd etc, and are you using a B1 with it? Always liked tubes in the system and have heard this is a good one.
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I'll be interested in your experiences with the SSE. Was going to build one once. Hope you can compare it to classd etc, and are you using a B1 with it? Always liked tubes in the system and have heard this is a good one.
Check out Pez's original SSE thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73713.0
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Got a SSE board and parts when George first provided them, ~ 3 years ago (?), I think. Couldn't get time to build. Have read most SSE threads on diyaudio, and Pez thread.
Wush, when you have time on it hope you can provide thoughts and comparison to other amps. And if SSE mates with B1 ok. Tubes have a spaciousness and life imo, worth at least trying tube amp or pre.
I ran el84 amps and ob speakers for a few years, might end up there again, but interested in octals next time.
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I have a Tubelab SE board just sitting in a file somewhere. :duh: I like the Simple SE so much I never bothered building it. I also couldn't get over the fact that it uses a rare tube choice with the input tube(5842). I have owned tube amps before that use rare tubes and I learned a lesson about finding new ones. This to me may be a fatal flaw in the design.
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Got a SSE board and parts when George first provided them, ~ 3 years ago (?), I think. Couldn't get time to build. Have read most SSE threads on diyaudio, and Pez thread.
Wush, when you have time on it hope you can provide thoughts and comparison to other amps. And if SSE mates with B1 ok. Tubes have a spaciousness and life imo, worth at least trying tube amp or pre.
I ran el84 amps and ob speakers for a few years, might end up there again, but interested in octals next time.
Hey nodiak, I did connect to my speakers tonight for a half hour or so. Speakers are only partially set up and consist of 4" Mark Audio EL70 full range sealed. Minidsp and woofers are offline for the moment. That said: G-DAMN! SOUNDS FKNG AWESOME! F@%K YEAH! If it sound this good NOW, sheeeeeeeeee@t. Oh man, I mean aside from the Onix and the Miniwatt and some brief listening to a fellow audiophile's Almarro 205, I don't have much tube exposure so what I'm hearing I'm hearing is nothing new to a lot of people, but I get it now I really, really get it. Whole new level for me. The realism and dimensionality and, it's man, just so different from what I've heard til now. I recall the Almarro being somewhat like that but I only spent a few minutes with it really. The others for sure didn't. Compared to this it's like they're facsimiles. Oh man, the realism of the instruments and effortless flow...
Comparing to the classdaudio is really apples and oranges, 250w vs. ~6w!!! Like comparing lightweight and heavyweight boxers. Ali vs. Sugar Ray? Not really fair, but no the CDA/SDS has not done for me what the SSE did tonight (the DCB1/CDA-254 comes close, but it's an altogether different presentation and my speakers were conventional 2-way with 10lb of crossovers. Each.).
I forgot to mention I'm running the SSE w/:
Cheap Shuguang EL34s, 445v B+
Antec Power transformer
$18 Edcor OPTs (w/ slightly beefier ones on the way)
JJ electrolytics
Obbligato Oil cap in PS (that thing is ridiculously big. sheesh.)
Organic Polymer Caps (similar to Os-con)
Mundorf Silver/Oil for bypass
Takman Metal resistors (I prefer to their carbon)
Neotecch UPOCC wire and Gold/Silver/Copper Alloy wire
Cardas Copper Binding Posts
DH Labs Copper Chassis RCA jacks
Already had the enclosure, posts, jacks, wire, so I think I spent around $350.
I was running straight from DAC, no pot, using my PC software for volume control. One thing that has me worried is it seems like there is way too much gain, but we'll see when I get a pre installed.
Lastly, the SSE made the EL70s seem far larger, far more alive than with the previous amps. Definitely a match. Like new speakers. Can't wait to build the dual version. Also, despite the tiny Edcors I get some real darn good bass out of those sealed ELs, cleaner and more prominent than with the Onix. Go figure.
And what 2nd order distortion. According to Tubelab sims, should be roughly 9%. Sounds as clean as the other amps. Oh so slightly warmer. Slightly. Maybe the SS rectification adds some leanness, in which case I like it.
Frickin' sweet
:smoke:
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I have a Tubelab SE board just sitting in a file somewhere. :duh: I like the Simple SE so much I never bothered building it. I also couldn't get over the fact that it uses a rare tube choice with the input tube(5842). I have owned tube amps before that use rare tubes and I learned a lesson about finding new ones. This to me may be a fatal flaw in the design.
Shoot, I am going to do my bestest to ignore the SE. Luckily I would be restricted to the 8w 300B most likely, can't get away with 2w so that makes it less appealing on top of the input tube issue. Still it would be cool to have half a dozen multimeters running at the same time while dialing it in.
Well, actually that's kind of disturbing.
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G-DAMN! SOUNDS FKNG AWESOME! F@%K YEAH!
So.... You like it? :lol:
I'm glad you are happy with the way it sounds. :thumb: I truly think the sse is one of the best amps I have ever heard period. Keep us posted on what you think about the other configurations.
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" G-DAMN! SOUNDS FKNG AWESOME! F@%K YEAH! If it sound this good NOW, sheeeeeeeeee@t. Oh man,... but I get it now I really, really get it. Whole new level for me. The realism and dimensionality and, it's man, just so different from what I've heard til now. "
:lol: :thumb:
That's good news wush! A good tube amp just kills as far as emotion goes. Keep the thread up with any news as you go.
EL70's have ok treble? That's been the losing end of the widerangers I've tried.
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" G-DAMN! SOUNDS FKNG AWESOME! F@%K YEAH! If it sound this good NOW, sheeeeeeeeee@t. Oh man,... but I get it now I really, really get it. Whole new level for me. The realism and dimensionality and, it's man, just so different from what I've heard til now. "
:lol: :thumb:
That's good news wush! A good tube amp just kills as far as emotion goes. Keep the thread up with any news as you go.
EL70's have ok treble? That's been the losing end of the widerangers I've tried.
In this case I would say it's more than emotion. The Onix and Miniwatt also had that quality, musicality, pull you in etc. Same with the CDA/SDS depending on the pre. It's the clarity and accuracy of timbre and tone that I hear with the SimpleSE that is wowing me. Like I'm that much closer to the Master Tapes of whatever's playing. Or maybe really good vinyl. Can't wait to get my vinyl back into play, because I think I'm going to have my mind blown.
EL70s exhibit terrific top end, I do not miss a tweeter. Clean, not ragged. Never even think about it. Remind me of the 27TDFC tweeters I used in several 2-ways - so it's not just that the ELs negate any need for a tweeter, they negate the need for a *good* tweeter. But YMMV and all that. Some people like a lot of sizzle, in which case the Alpairs may be a better choice as they hit 30khz. Can't say enough good things about the Mark Audio drivers.
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Wush,
Welcome to tubes :-)
Anand.
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"It's the clarity and accuracy of timbre and tone that I hear with the SimpleSE that is wowing me. Like I'm that much closer to the Master Tapes of whatever's playing. Or maybe really good vinyl. Can't wait to get my vinyl back into play, because I think I'm going to have my mind blown."
Good description, I know what you're talking about. My audio path got interrupted last year. Then I decided to build a simple system that could be powered off grid, so strayed from tube amps. The ss lateral mosfet amp I'm working on is said to have some tone and harmonics similar to tubes, and then maybe a Dodd battery tube buffer might bring those attributes you mentioned together. Will see later.
Sounds like you're really closing in on something sweet! Going for mltl cabs or adding bass driver with separate amp?
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The Simple SE is awesome. Makes me wish the designer had done work on a DAC or a preamp, they'd probably blow away a lot of other gear.
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"It's the clarity and accuracy of timbre and tone that I hear with the SimpleSE that is wowing me. Like I'm that much closer to the Master Tapes of whatever's playing. Or maybe really good vinyl. Can't wait to get my vinyl back into play, because I think I'm going to have my mind blown."
Good description, I know what you're talking about. My audio path got interrupted last year. Then I decided to build a simple system that could be powered off grid, so strayed from tube amps. The ss lateral mosfet amp I'm working on is said to have some tone and harmonics similar to tubes, and then maybe a Dodd battery tube buffer might bring those attributes you mentioned together. Will see later.
Sounds like you're really closing in on something sweet! Going for mltl cabs or adding bass driver with separate amp?
Off-grid. Impressive. No room for mltl though that would be ideal. Building tall monitors w/ 2 drivers per side. Going to see how they hold up by themselves bass-wise, then add in the separate woofers I have with MiniDsp.
I have decided recently to kind of throw everything at the wall and then methodically sculpt away leaving only the components that impart the body of sound I am looking for.
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The Simple SE is awesome. Makes me wish the designer had done work on a DAC or a preamp, they'd probably blow away a lot of other gear.
Freakin' A.
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Well the magic couldn't last forever. I built the dual driver monitors and had to contend with transport issues so readjustments had to be dealt with to get those up to snuff. The amp sounded great throughout but that initial wow factor tempered until I could spend more time on it once the everything else was realigned. In the meantime I increased the current to the power tubes and tried out 6l6s and El34. The russian 6p3se's sound terrific!... Finally had some time this week so I increased driver current to accommodate 12bh7 tubes since I have a bunch. That cleaned up the sound a good amount. Then replaced radio shack fuse with acme audio. This always guarantees a step up from cheap fuses and it didn't fail here. Those changes brought the magic and then some with the new speaker setup. Topped off with vhaudio airlok DIY cables. Amps promise is fulfilled. Delivery is smooth as silk and clarity and depth are beyond my expectations.
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Cleaned up some of the writing above - I was texting at the time. Also forgot to mention that a Felix was added to the amp last night, but I can't say just yet what effect it's had. Certainly not a bad one.
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Got rid of the inrush current limiter. I felt the sound suffered a little when I installed it and now after tossing it I am sure of it (my effusive first impressions were before the limiter was installed).
This is by far my most rewarding project to date. Just about got tears in my eyes :smoke:
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Lets see some new pictures!
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Ya wush! That's what I'm talking about! The SSE is astoundingly great, now do what jwt says and post some completed pics. :o
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Ya wush! That's what I'm talking about! The SSE is astoundingly great, now do what jwt says and post some completed pics. :o
:lol: Ok, I'll put some up later but it's not much to look at!
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Used a Par-metal enclosure that's been around the block w/ other amp projects:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=44962)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=44963)
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Looks like a freaking tank! Don't tell anyone it's only pushing 5 watts. :lol:
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Swapped out the Mundorf Silver/Oil for ClarityCap MR (Mundorfs are terrific but MR just disappear). All speaker and IC wire replaced with VHAudio Airlok (which frickin' is amazing BTW). Walker SST on all connections including inside the amp. This amp just gets better and better. It's at warp speed level now. You'd have to pry this setup out of my cold dead hands.
Surprisingly I am not sold on the Herbie's tube dampers for the power tubes and 50-50 on driver tube. Oh well, good to have reality check on tweaks.
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This amp is so quiet that the dampers seem to have less of an effect IMO. I still use them, but it's not the extreme difference you'd hear using herbies on another product.
All in all Im very happy with my Jensen copper oil caps. I've heard great things about the mundorfs, but I have little to no desire to start cap rolling.
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Pez/Wush,
Are the caps you mentioned input coupling caps? If so is there any reason (other than fitting the board properly) that I couldn't use a larger value? I have a pair of 2.2uF Obbligatos here and what may be one of the last pairs of the Amp Ohm FE-XAL-AL 630VDC Polyester in Oil aluminium foil (see humble homade Hifi review below) being shipped from the Netherlands, I am hoping these live up to the hype and would love to give them a shot in the Simple SE.
I have a thread concerning an amp to build for my V1s and between the reactions of you both I believe you have convinced me this is the amp I should builld!
Amp Ohm FE-XAL-AL 630VDC Polyester in Oil aluminium foil - 10% tolerance
Technical Specifications (according to manufacturer): "Ampohm Audio Capacitors are specially designed for high performance audio systems. These polyester film capacitors are hand wound using high purity aluminium foil and have their leads hand soldered before being assembled and hermetically sealed in an aluminium housing with phenolic resin and rubber end discs.The 1.0mm diameter tinned copper lead out wires are solder sealed to the eyelets in the end discs This construction results in these components being ideally suited for use as coupling capacitors or as replacements for components in existing designs. Line on label denotes outer foil."
Sound: The Amp Ohm polyester-in-oil alumnium foil is overall very coherent and neutral. This type has a pleasent midrange-highlight when in direct comparison to the Ampohm paper-in-wax alumnium foil type. The polyester-in-oil is very rich and extremely good in retrieving ambient information such as room or hall acoustics. Music is presented in a natural and full-bodied manner. Compared to the Duelund VSF-Cu copper-foil the image is more "see through". Compared to the Mundorf Silver-Gold-Oil the presentation is richer, especially noticable on massed strings or large vocal works. On small jazz-trio's etc the Silver-Gold-Oil high-lights micro detail a little more but doesn't quite reach the same level of overall coherence the polyester-in-oil does so well.
Verdict: 12+
Best,
Ed
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The caps are coupling caps between the driver tube and output tube. While you can put anything over 400 vdc in the amp YOU CANNOT screw around with the value of the capacitance. The SSE coupling cap is .22 uF. If you put anything else in you'll see fireworks or get really bad sound. maybe you can trade your 2.2 for a .22?
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There's a little leeway with the coupling values (you can go lower than .1 or .22 but you'll start attenuate low end) but as Pez said 2.2uf is not a good idea.Not to mention those Ampohms are HUGE (4in.x2in. long!!!) and METAL =
:bomb:
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Pez/Wush,
Thanks for the responses. I actually bought the caps for my self moded T-amp so no worries. The .22 should be substatially less!
Thanks again,
Ed
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These ampohms seem to be all the rage. Maybe I'll give them a shot since I can't get the scratch for some duelands. Wushuliu, are you planning on doing some more cap rolling or are you happy with the claritycaps?
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These ampohms seem to be all the rage. Maybe I'll give them a shot since I can't get the scratch for some duelands. Wushuliu, are you planning on doing some more cap rolling or are you happy with the claritycaps?
Extremely happy w/ the MRs, JonL's review describes them well. No coloration, windexed window pane clarity which I favor. The Ampohm Copper PIO is tempting to me just to hear what that midrange 'glow' is like. I've used Ampohm Aluminum PIOs in other projects. They are great and very affordable. Probably a good thing to buy a couple actually just to have on hand since they are no longer in business and stock is running out. But better than your Jensens? Tough call..
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These ampohms seem to be all the rage. Maybe I'll give them a shot since I can't get the scratch for some duelands. Wushuliu, are you planning on doing some more cap rolling or are you happy with the claritycaps?
You have heard them... at least their affect. I have the copper ones in my 211 SET's. :)
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I know, but my super senses don't remember what you coupling caps sound like. I remember very clearly what your power supply caps and resistors sound like, but not the Ampohms. :P
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These ampohms seem to be all the rage. Maybe I'll give them a shot since I can't get the scratch for some duelands. Wushuliu, are you planning on doing some more cap rolling or are you happy with the claritycaps?
I recieved the Ampohms and now have them serving input coupling cap duty to my T-amp. These things are enormous (think red bull can). With little to no burn in I would say that these cap have the most clarity of any cap I have used (granted, not a huge variety). I had the Jensen PIOs in this amp at one time and although audio memory is a fading thing the difference between the Ampohms and the Jensens is substantial (relatively speaking), the Jensens presented a much warmer presentation, the Ampohms, at least so far, are much less warm and more detailed.
The Jensens worked really well with the T-amp, the jury is still out regarding the Ampohms.
Best,
Ed
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Update, the AmpOhms have settled in and now have more meat on the bones still with that great clarity. Not as liquid or romantic as the Jensens in the same amp.
Wush, I was looking in the classifieds for SET amp part and I saw your thread with the output transformers. What transformers did you end up with for the Simple SE? Did you try the units you sold?
Thanks,
Ed
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Update, the AmpOhms have settled in and now have more meat on the bones still with that great clarity. Not as liquid or romantic as the Jensens in the same amp.
Wush, I was looking in the classifieds for SET amp part and I saw your thread with the output transformers. What transformers did you end up with for the Simple SE? Did you try the units you sold?
Thanks,
Ed
Hi Ed, I went with the Edcor GSX-5k-6 ohm. I did not try the Hammonds, only the smaller Edcors which sounded terrific (my first impressions in this thread were with those). I'm not experienced enough with output trans to know how they compare with costlier ones though.
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So finally swapped out the Antek transformer for the higher voltage Allied, allowing me to install a tube rectifier and therefore no longer needing the SS diodes. What can I say, the tube rectifier is the way to go after all. I was worried it was going to get all mushy and 'tubey' as some people like to say - no such thing. No contest, though some may like the zippier sound of the SS.
On the other hand I am certain at this point that the CL-90 current limiter degrades sound quality and I refuse to use it unless something goes really wrong. It's not mandatory and my caps are pretty tough.
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Nice, I couldnt agree more about rectification. I really love the SSE with all the audiophiles clichés. 0 feedback, triode, tubed rectification, paper and oil caps, and BIG iron. Glad the Allied worked out for you, it is an excellent transformer for the cost.
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So, what were the total costs of youz guyz's amps, not including chassis or tubes (one can go WILD with those options!)?
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Total cost for me was sort of high because of the options I chose. It's hard to say without tubes and chassis, but I would estimate in the $1000 range per amp. I am going to do a little secret project soon that will kick that amount up another couple hundred, but it'll be worth it!!! :thumb:
Also tubes on mine are the Treasures and the chassis' were custom designed by myself and a friend of mine who is a helluva craftsman.
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So, what were the total costs of youz guyz's amps, not including chassis or tubes (one can go WILD with those options!)?
$50 board
$80 Allied Power Transformer
$75 Output transformers
$100 Pricey coupling caps
$20 Oil Cap for PS
$50 for the rest including caps, resistors, sockets, connectors etc.
So $375 including shipping. But in reality i did some swapping over time like going from Antek to allied power transformer, etc. so the cost was higher. I already had an enclosure. If you pass on pricey caps then ~$275.