[jtwrace]

I find it hard to believe that Salk didn't put enough in there.  You are aware that you actually can put too much inside; right? 
 

[DMurphy]

Wow--the missing piece of information.  None of the open-back speakers (SS8, SS10. SS12, my Phil 3's and Slims Towers) was meant to be played without at least some fill.  Without, there will be too much rear wave midrange information that will obscure detail, and there will also be a bit of a cavity resonance even with the walls treated with foam panels.  Whether you prefer a little fill, a lot, or a completely blocked rear will depend a lot on the music you play.  Studio recordings without natural ambiance may well sound better with lots of fill or a closed back.  High quality recordings of, say, orchestras or jazz in a natural venue will benefit from some rear wave contribution to bring out the sense of space and depth you get at a live, unamplified event.    As usual, if there's something you really don't like about the speaker, it's something more basic than electronics, crossover component quality, or even room treatments. 

[ctviggen]

Now, if I do decide to perform a cap rebuild - at some later point - the purpose of the cap rebuild would be to not change the sound - but to expand on detail, clarity, imaging, and wider sound-stage that the speakers could produce.  This would require some higher ended caps than the Solens, but I still am curios to see if anyone performed a cap rebuild, what they replaced it with, and what their personal experience was with the before-and-after effects of cap rebuild.

That would be very difficult to do -- compare before and after cap replacement. It would be strictly from memory, and memory is a bad scientific tool to use.   My five-year old wants to add the following:   

[ctviggen]

When I sold my VMPS speakers with TRT caps to a guy, he emailed me later and said mine were better than his, but he had another pair (with regular caps) to compare.  Without having two pairs, it's going be tough to remember, and your mind is going to let the $1,000 caps win.  My five year old again:


 

 

[DaveC113]

I would agree that better crossover components make for better sounding speakers. Solens are not so great IME, I think Clarity ESA would be a step up, and Clarity MR or Jupiter copper foil caps would be even better but lots of cash. I also like Mills resistors and foil inductors.

[ddark65]

Hi,

Totally don't want to be disrespectful but your components aren't in the same league as your speakers. What were your previous speakers?  I have a pair of Salk Sound HT3's and the rest of my system is top notch and the speakers always rise to the occasion.

This is another thread on the Selah Audio circle which discusses the pros and cons of making changes in the cover.  Check out Rick Craig's responses as he is a speaker designer.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134561.0

You have a great pair of speakers which you can build the rest of your system around.

Cheers Rod

  When I listened to Soundscape 8's I wasn't to impressed    maybe some room treatments are needed first

[DMurphy]

I would agree that better crossover components make for better sounding speakers. Solens are not so great IME, I think Clarity ESA would be a step up, and Clarity MR or Jupiter copper foil caps would be even better but lots of cash. I also like Mills resistors and foil inductors.

I've used all of that except the Jupiter.  The Clarity's look better than the Solens.  That's the only difference I could discern.  Copper foil inductors have lower insertion loss, but steel laminates are a lot cheaper and do the same thing.  And they don't break off when you ship the speakers. 

[DaveC113]

I thought the Solens were grainy and had less detail vs the ESAs...

[ricardojoa]

Flatter response speakers usually sound less involving to some. In addition speakers that tend to sound warm and forgiving are more involving. I have compared the tepempesta selah and salks songs, and i will tell you the songs are more involving and engaging, but the tempesta selah sound more neutral and natural. What i would wish is the the tempesta exibit that neutralness and a bit more involving sound(warth).

[DMurphy]

I thought the Solens were grainy and had less detail vs the ESAs...

I doubt that anyone wants another thread devoted to a yes the are--no they aren't cap debate, so I'll shut up after this post.  I just like to express a little skepticism whenever the opportunity arises, but mainly because I spent my professional career helping to enforce FTC advertising regulations.  Manufacturers of normal goods like cars and analgesics and energy-saving devices are required to back up their claims with competent and reliable scientific evidence.  Designer caps aren't normal products, and normal people don't buy them, so the FTC has never bothered to challenge their claims.  But in principle, the burden of proof is on the sellers of these things to provide controlled tests and plausible scientific reasoning to document their claims.   Testimonials by buyers aren't considered adequate substantiation for very good reasons, and I always hope that someday one designer cap manufacturer will step up to the plate and lay out the evidence for their superiority.  Probably not going to happen. 

[jtwrace]

I doubt that anyone wants another thread devoted to a yes the are--no they aren't cap debate, so I'll shut up after this post.  I just like to express a little skepticism whenever the opportunity arises, but mainly because I spent my professional career helping to enforce FTC advertising regulations.  Manufacturers of normal goods like cars and analgesics and energy-saving devices are required to back up their claims with competent and reliable scientific evidence.  Designer caps aren't normal products, and normal people don't buy them, so the FTC has never bothered to challenge their claims.  But in principle, the burden of proof is on the sellers of these things to provide controlled tests and plausible scientific reasoning to document their claims.   Testimonials by buyers aren't considered adequate substantiation for very good reasons, and I always hope that someday one designer cap manufacturer will step up to the plate and lay out the evidence for their superiority.  Probably not going to happen.

Thank you for the sanity.      It's too bad that many audiophiles are fooled into thinking that listening is scientific data.   

[Vapor Audio]

... I always hope that someday one designer cap manufacturer will step up to the plate and lay out the evidence for their superiority.  Probably not going to happen.

This has been out for a couple years now.  And if you care to challenge your own cynicism, contact Clarity and they'll give you plenty more data used in their research.

www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/claritycapmr_whitepaper.pdf

[DaveC113]

This has been out for a couple years now.  And if you care to challenge your own cynicism, contact Clarity and they'll give you plenty more data used in their research.

www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/claritycapmr_whitepaper.pdf

Thanks, and quite right...

It's even easier to hear differences in caps when used as coupling caps in tube gear. If your gear uses them try Solen MKP vs Jupiter copper and there will be a difference so large you will be satisfied with simply listening.

[audiotom]

Dbx

Glad you found the solution

I like the Soundscapes with the closed baffle
Pinpoint imaging

I would spend the "cap" money on upstream electronics

Enjoy your adventure

[DMurphy]

This has been out for a couple years now.  And if you care to challenge your own cynicism, contact Clarity and they'll give you plenty more data used in their research.

www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/claritycapmr_whitepaper.pdf

I've seen that article many times.   Note that there are no details on how the listening tests were performed, or on whether the results had any statistical significance.  All I can say is that I have built several of my Philharmonic 3's with standard grade Clalrity caps and with various Clarity upgrades, and I have also participated in properly conducted ABX tests of caps.  There might be a difference--it's very difficult to detect it in blind tests because there is so much random variation.  But so far I'm sticking with the null hypothesis. 

[avahifi]

Hey you guys, you could always just do the super duper cap upgrade to one speaker of a pair and then listen to them in mono using the balance control to switch back and forth.  Any real differences should be obvious.  Of course have someone swap the position of the speakers while you are out of the room now and then to keep the test honest.

Methinks the "tire testing without a pressure gauge" syndrome is at work here.  If you don't measure the cap removed with a capacitor meter and replace it with another of identical measured value you are just fooling yourselves.  A capacitor is not the value marked on it, it is the value that it actually is.  For example a 10% tolerance 10 uF cap can be anywhere between 9uF and 11uF and be in spec.  So you can be off by 20% from one part to another.  In some circuits changing the value of a capacitor by 10 or 20 percent will create a circuit change you can easily hear.  This is especially true if the stereo unit or matched speaker pairs had been built originally with selected matched pair capacitors and or resistors and coils.  A 20 percent value change from one speaker of a pair to the other can easily cause imaging and phase shift issues that are audible and this has nothing to do with the "wonder" quality or excessively high price of the so called premium grade capacitor.

Anticipation bias says that when you make changes to your system, especially if they are expensive changes, you are going to like the new better in the absence of true ABX testing.

So how many of you actually use a capacitor meter when cap rolling??? 

Frank Van Alstine

[Early B.]

Methinks the "tire testing without a pressure gauge" syndrome is at work here.  If you don't measure the cap removed with a capacitor meter and replace it with another of identical measured value you are just fooling yourselves.  A capacitor is not the value marked on it, it is the value that it actually is.  For example a 10% tolerance 10 uF cap can be anywhere between 9uF and 11uF and be in spec.  So you can be off by 20% from one part to another.  In some circuits changing the value of a capacitor by 10 or 20 percent will create a circuit change you can easily hear.  This is especially true if the stereo unit or matched speaker pairs had been built originally with selected matched pair capacitors and or resistors and coils.  A 20 percent value change from one speaker of a pair to the other can easily cause imaging and phase shift issues that are audible and this has nothing to do with the "wonder" quality or excessively high price of the so called premium grade capacitor.

Good point. Higher quality caps typically have lower tolerances. This variance, alone, could account for much of the improvements audiophiles hear from premium grade caps. Kinda like matched pairs of tubes -- for most listeners, it doesn't matter, but for more discerning audiophiles, they're willing a pay a premium for them.   

[DMurphy]

So how many of you actually use a capacitor meter when cap rolling??? 

Frank Van Alstine

I admit that I don't measure every cap I use, although I always take frequency response and impedance measurements at the end to see if the overall system is in spec.   I've actually found greater variation in inductors than in the types of poly caps I'm using.   Electrolytics don't do so well.

[avahifi]

Early B you missed the point.

Without that capacitor meter you can take the standard caps from some unit and then when replacing them with so called higher quality capacitors, you still can be changing the capacitor values a whole bunch, depending upon what the actual measured value of the capacitors you replaced were.

Its like taking the old tires off your car which unknown to you only had 10 pounds pressure in them, and replaced them with new tires at the recommended 35 pound pressure.  So now the car handles better.  Was it the new tires or simply the car works better with the right tire pressure?

Without a tire pressure gauge you will never be sure.

Without a capacitor meter you will never be sure.  If you don't match values when capacitor rolling anticipation bias rears its ugly head again.

Frank Van Alstine

[jtwrace]

I admit that I don't measure every cap I use, although I always take frequency response and impedance measurements at the end to see if the overall system is in spec.   I've actually found greater variation in inductors than in the types of poly caps I'm using.   Electrolytics don't do so well.

Without a capacitor meter you will never be sure.  If you don't match values when capacitor rolling anticipation bias rears its ugly head again.

Frank Van Alstine

What Dennis does above is the right way to do it.  It's all about the assembly rather than the individual component values.  An L/C/R Meter sure is essential when doing crossover work as are other tools. 


As usual, people just replace value for value and the "change" that they hear is indeed the change in value not the capacitor quality they believe.  Unscientific Audiophiles...