[azryan]

Heard the RM-40's today!

First off thanks to ekovalsky.... for letting myself and my friend come over and check out his set-up (and incredible house! I got some drool on the floor. sorry!).
GREAT guy!!

[Duplicate post See:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=3380

-- borg]

[audiojerry]

Very thorough review job. Based on my experience with the RM2, I think you got it right. Your description of the lack of driver integration (coherence), and bass shyness coincided with my impressions, if the RM40's are similar to the RM2 in this smallish room. I do believe that VMPS requires a far-field listening position of at least 12'. It is more difficult to achieve low bass in a smaller room than a larger room. Low frequency bass waves need lots of space to fully develop.

Another aspect that you were not able to compare was off-axis listening. I can only speculate which would have a better radiating pattern.  

How did it compare in terms of all out dynamics and high-output.

[azryan]

"-Another aspect that you were not able to compare was off-axis listening. I can only speculate which would have a better radiating pattern."

"-How did it compare in terms of all out dynamics and high-output."

I think the room size and naked drywall made this all kind of hard to say anything that means anything.

Eric's going to to be doing several treaments that I think will nail the room effect probs. down very well.... we'll see if he let's me hear it again later! hehe

To make a guess though, and I think a fairly easy one, the speaker that's far more efficent and can handle more, and has really tight bass should have the edge.

I'm going to be trying a more spread out and farther seating distance tonight per Danny's advise. He's got almost the exact same size room so it should be very good advise, though I worry about the laser sharpness of the center image blurring out some... but we'll see what happens....

As for optimal distance for the 40's... I don't know myself. I think Tyson here has them very close. Maybe 7', but I could be totally wrong? I'll have to do a search and see if anyone made a thread asking that question.

[Tyson]

I think at least 10 feet, preferably a couple more, would be ideal.

Don't know if you saw my recent post where I got to hear another RM40 owner's setup recently.  In my own setup, I get very deep bass quite nicely, very powerful, but a weaker upper bass.  In his setup it's just the opposite - killer upper bass (seriously percussive!), but almost no low bass at all.  In that respect, the 40's seem to be pretty room dependent.  Room treatment and room size is going to make a big difference in percieved sound.

On the other hand, there is something about the way a line source that loads the room in such a way that they are less room dependent than anything else I've heard.  Having bass launch simultaneously from 7 different physical locations (or more) has a way of removing the room as a factor to some extent, which lets you really hear the bass in a way that other speakers have a difficult time with.

[azryan]

"-I think at least 10 feet, preferably a couple more, would be ideal."

Is that where you have your's? I thought you are closer? Someone else said 12' for the 40's. Guess it all depends though right.

I think Eric's got the room to go 10' and probably will try them farther again when he gets his room treatments up. I think he said he had more bass, but the quality was room damaged. His bass traps he's getting should cure it I'd imagine.

"-Don't know if you saw my recent post where I got to hear another RM40 owner's setup recently. In my own setup, I get very deep bass quite nicely, very powerful, but a weaker upper bass. In his setup it's just the opposite - killer upper bass (seriously percussive!), but almost no low bass at all. In that respect, the 40's seem to be pretty room dependent. Room treatment and room size is going to make a big difference in percieved sound."

I didn't see it, but I could totally believe that. I'd love to try to set them up optimally in my room where I have more placements options, and then hear both where they're the only variables in the chain.

Speaking of which... My Alphas are only a few months old now, and on day one I placed them where they sounded very good to me, but I mostly wanted to just hear it they worked (or if I screwed everything up! hehe).

I had intended to wait till they really broke in a lot more and then was going to play w/ placement again.

But 'where I stuck 'em' sounded great to me and the hassle of moving them just added to me not feeling the need to adjust anything... Ok... I was just lazy!

After I posted this thread Danny (who has almost the exact size room) gave me advise and a 'to the inch' placement/seating suggestion that's Much wider apart, and Much further seating dist. than I had, and toed in directly at center....
 so I got off my butt, unspiked the bases and put 'em where Danny said.

I found that sooo far apart the center image was still very sharp, but I felt the 'laser sharp' I felt I had wasn't quite there. I also felt the bass wasn't a strong as I had been used to.
The soundstage seemed to have a very 'grand' display. It felt too big to me though, just a bit like when you go to a flick late and you have to sit too close to the screen. That element was probably just preference though IMO.

I played w/ 'em quite a bit more and ended up almost just splitting the diff. between what Danny suggested and what I had done.

I now have them toed in to center, 9.5' apart, and sit 12' from each speaker. The 'laser center' is totally there still, and the diff. sounds across the stage feel like they have just enough breathing room. It was probably a bit too compacted/congested the way I had it before.

"-On the other hand, there is something about the way a line source that loads the room in such a way that they are less room dependent than anything else I've heard. "

I have floor to ceiling 20" dia. DIY bass traps in two corners, and part of one in the back corner, and I've removed them and don't think I can tell much of a diff.
They're painted to match the room, and the room's big they don't get in anything's way, that I'm just going to leave them there just for 'in case they're helping', but the Alphas just don't seem to need it.

In all the moving I've done w/ the Alphas the overall bass strength changed a bit, but never did a peak or dip show up or a hint of mud or boom.

I know you said the ex-array did this too, but since they dont actually play as low as the 40's or the Alphas, I think something's missing there. There's no doubt those drivers could effortlessly play that low too if designed ported.

I suggest Danny tell people you don't HAVE to have the Alpha's base plate as big as he designed it.

I'd say 2" all the way around is plenty, and it'd make them much easier to move around, and you'll still have to forecfully push them over to tip 'em.

Moving the RM-40's at Erics was probably 4-5 times easier, but a little guy like me is able to move both on my own.
One was easy. One was freakin' hard! hehe

"-Having bass launch simultaneously from 7 different physical locations (or more)-"

18 cones playing those deep tones. Those cheap little cones sound a hair better, but just a hair depth-shy from my dual 16Hz tuned corner loaded Adire Tempest sonotubes.
I DO cross the Alphas w/ the subs when watching movies though where the bass is just CRAZY compared to any CD I listen to.

[Tyson]

I actually meant distance from the speakers to the listening position.  At least 10 feet is needed for full driver integration, IMO, with better results.  I find that the 40's sound best w/an equilateral triangle setup, but then again, I'm in a small space myself, so have limited placement possiblities.

I'm actually jealous of Jerry's upper bass slam, I think I'd rather have that than the extension I'm getting now.  

I'm glad large speakers and line array's are being made available at reasonable prices again.  There are simply things that a large speaker capable of moving a lot of air can do that are not capable of being done with bookshelf or petite 2 way floorstanding speakers.

[John Casler]

Tyson:

I actually meant distance from the speakers to the listening position. At least 10 feet is needed for full driver integration,

Audio Jerry:

Your description of the lack of driver integration (coherence), and bass shyness coincided with my impressions, if the RM40's are similar to the RM2 in this smallish room. I do believe that VMPS requires a far-field listening position of at least 12'.

While I'm familiar with speakers "out in the room" not having bass due to lack of room re-inforcement, I'm not getting any "driver integration" problems that I can hear and I am at 7-8 feet from the speakers.

What symptoms (effects) have you heard.  What does this lack of integration sound like?

I'm just wondering if it too, is room related, (specifically side wall and ceiling) since I don't have any side walls to reflect on and I have tweaked away the upper bass reflections, much might be attributable to that.

And one other small question.

AZ what do you refer to when you said that Private Investigations has a "high noise floor"?????  Mine seems to be dead silent between signals???  Do you seem to have master tape hiss?  Even when cupping I can't pick up much noise.

What electronics are you using with your Alphas?

[azryan]

"driver integration" problems-

"-What symptoms (effects) have you heard. What does this lack of integration sound like?"

For me, I could pretty easily pick out when around the woofer x-over range the woofers were hitting tones and when it was high enough that it was the neo panels. The levels sounded balanced to myself and my friend.

Some songs just didn't have stuff that pointed that out of course, but some Nine Inch Nails has a lot of stuff all around that area.
I pointed it our to Eric when I heard it and I 'think' he did too, but I won't speak for him 'cuz I don't remember if he said anything at the time.
A specific track was track 5 on the first disc of 'The Fragile'.

"-I'm just wondering if it too, is room related, (specifically side wall and ceiling) since I don't have any side walls to reflect on and I have tweaked away the upper bass reflections, much might be attributable to that."

Maybe? I might have been hearing a hint of a boominess when hitting the woofers that the neo can't create? So the blend might've been smoother than it was and it was a bass mode? I seriously don't like the idea of adding more stuff to the speakers to fix this. IMO, that'd just ruin that great looking speaker.

Presonally I'm suprised brian uses light gray foam over the spiral tweeters. If I were him, I'd try REALLY hard to get this exact same foam in black so it disappears.
That's totally just a looks thing though, but I love the looks of both speakers (except that gray foam).

"-AZ what do you refer to when you said that Private Investigations has a "high noise floor"????? Mine seems to be dead silent between signals??? Do you seem to have master tape hiss? Even when cupping I can't pick up much noise.

Wow, that's a lot of question marks! hehe
Yeah I mean tape hiss that's VERY easy for me to hear IMO, and most recordings I have don't have this hiss at all, or even the other tracks on Love Over Gold, or the Best Of... CD this track is on.

This is 100% the specific recording, and no flaw in either speaker IMO. When the actual music comes in that noise is totally masked though (that part of how DD and DTS works right? throwing out masked sound first), and why I still love it as a reference track.
Actually I like the hiss in it. It's not like it sounds bad like it's harsh in any way. Just like a low fuzz.

I can crank the volume w/ no signal playing on my system with everything on in the chain and even w/ my ear to the drivers can hear basically nothing -as in no front end system noise.

"-What electronics are you using with your Alphas?"

I have the Acoustic Reality digital eARTwo amp. I think it's stunning.

For DAC and pre/amp I use the Outlaw Audio 950, and transport is cheapo Pannie RP-56 DVD player (great picture. POS build quality).

I never thought that Outlaw was audiophile high end (or at best 'entry level into high end'), and hell... I've been embarrased to even mention that's what I use, but every time I changed something other than 'it', the system kept getting better and better, and I've heard top flight speakers connected to mega buck dedicated 2-chan. front ends and I just don't feel my system gets kicked by any of them.

Before I got the eARTwo I felt my system was very good, but there were probably 5 very high end systems that I'd heard that I felt were clearly a 'next step up'.
When I put in the eARTWo the diff. was great enough that I really felt in some ways I bettered some of these systems, but in other still was short.

When I switched the great sounding by kinda of quirky Newforms for the Alphas, I feel it betters every one of the best other systems I've heard.
I really hate when people brag or stretch the truth to make things sound better than they are. I'm still 100% open to the idea of other systems that sound better than mine. I don't have any need to feel I own the very best of blah, blah, blah...
I hope I make that clear. I can only go by what I've heard so far in my life?
 
I really hope Eric comes over and can confirm what I hear... then again, he might think I'm totally insane? I really want to know what he hears one way or the other.

I think he heard the things I pointed out about his system, and my friend did too, and too be honest felt my sound had the edge (trying to put that as nice as I can. This was meant to me cool and fun, not a contest), so I don't think I'm too crazy? hehe

I have a VERY strong feeling after Eric really treats the room it'll get FAR better, and I'd love to hear it again when he does. I've heard the exact same speakers and front end in different rooms sound 'nothing special at all', and 'one of the best systems I've ever heard' just in a diff. room (specifically Martin-Logan Prodigys/Mark Levinson monoblocks and CD/pre;  Revel Salons/Krell monoblocks/Wadia CD).

Anyway....
I thought I might have to send the eARTWo back because the Outlaw was too cheap to let the amp make any diff. (I had the Newform Research 645's at the time), but when I got it I was floored from minute one. I know that sounds pretty wild, but 'I swear'.

I told my wife I'd still send it back if she didn't hear anything or even 'not much of anything' 'cuz I wasn't going to spend that much $ on tiny improvements. I feel that'd be a waste.

She said she could easily tell the diff. and it wasn't tiny at all, and told me not to send it back (bad ass wife 'eh?).

I've been waiting/looking for a better line level solution than the Outlaw since before I even got it (since in my head I've always thought... "This just can't possibly be the best 2-chan CD signal I can send to my amp right???"), but I'd really like a perfect universal DVD player modded out, and a simple multi chan. pre/amp, but I'm just not finding it yet...

Or I like the looks of that Dodd Audio small tubed preamp Danny posted pics of here, and maybe that Scott Nixon (untubed model) DAC, or maybe that Mensa DAC?

I'm not sure what to do, but for now... I'm just not getting a signal I have any problems with IMO.
Maybe a little edgy when very very loud, but I heard the same on Eric's system, and neither was to the point of harshness at all. Just a little bit of where you can feel it jolt your eardrums here and there. But that happens in real life w/ real instruments just as often.

The only speakers I haven't heard that happen w/ are ones that sounded dull at almost any level.

[John Casler]

Wow, that's a lot of question marks! hehe

Well it seems you are a rather critical listener and it is good to share notes.

But... I didn't realize I was posting in the GR forum and see that this thread is in both the VMPS and GR.

Any other questions (and I do have some) will be in the other thread. (sorry)

[Danny Richie]

But... I didn't realize I was posting in the GR forum and see that this thread is in both the VMPS and GR.

That is okay John. You are welcome here too.

I did not know this discussion was in the VMPS forum as well. I hope all is civil over there.

Ryan, I hope you enjoyed or appreciated moving those heavy speakers around, and hope the improvement found from your efforts are much enjoyed.

Very informative post too, BTW.

[azryan]

Maybe I should have just posted this as one thread in the General forum, but Eric suggested I put it here and VMPS's, and I thought that sounded like the better idea.
Seemed fair, and I hoped neither thread would 'degrade'. So far... neither has, so that's great.

I'm glad Danny has no problem w/ you here John. I know I don't.

I think if people only segregate themselves to one little area they could develop a bit of tunnel vision (or whatever the audio equivelent would be? 'monophonitis'?? hehe) possibly leading to a bad case of 'cheerleaderism'. hehe

There's several companies on AC that I feel should be getting so much more press (or any).

[Tyson]

I agree, companies like GR research and Selah audio should get a lot more exposure.  AVA is another, although they are starting to get some of the props they deserve (good God their T7 and FetValve are great value).  

But GR research and Selah audio offer large speaker systems (line arrays) that are relatively inexpensive and obviously are exceedingly good performers.  That is the main thing - at the prices they sell for, why bother buying ANY monitor sized speaker or petite 2 way floorstander for this $$ when you can get these Line Arrays (or the RM40's) for very little more.  This is real value and I wish more people were aware of them.  Sure they are all monstrously tall, but none of them have a large footprint.  One you hear what the 40's or a line array are capable of, it's very, very difficult to justify spending much $$ on bookshelf and mini-tower speakers.

[eric the red]

Speaking of tall speakers, this http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?spkrfull&1062354155 seems to be a pretty good deal .

[Tyson]

Thats a friggin steal.

[eric the red]

and only a 3 hour drive for me and I've got a truck...Have you heard these speakers Tyson (I think I remember that you have) and the Dunlavy 5's? What do Dunlavys sound like??

[doug s.]

i heard the dunlavy's at a s'phile show several years ago - wery clean, detailed, dynamic sound.  wery nice.  but, i recall a s'phile (wes phillip's?) review of these, where he said they had to be the "worlds largest headfones", as the sweet spot was so small...  even so, he liked 'em a *lot*...

doug s.

[Danny Richie]

Dougs right.

I have listened to there best speakers, at their facility, setting next to John Dunlavy.

They sounded great, no question about it, but only if your head was dead center between the two. If you moved over one seat the show was over.