Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build

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Captainhemo

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #140 on: 6 Mar 2017, 05:15 pm »
They are looking good Ed !
 As Peter said,  block danding between  every  couple coats really  helps flatten things out. You'll continue to take the highs down   and fill the lows each time you repeat.  Never used the water based lacquers but  with the sovent based it's best to  apply  multiple  thin coats that dry quickly and prevent puddling

jay

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #141 on: 6 Mar 2017, 05:29 pm »
Thanks Jay.  Yes, multiple thin coats with the water based as well.

Best,
Ed

Peter J

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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #142 on: 7 Mar 2017, 05:28 am »
Ed, I'd sure encourage some sanding and recoating, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the result. I'd consider 800 as a beginning of polishing steps, but would probably start at 400 or even 320 were I trying to flatten a finish. Jay nailed it as to why sand between coats. The more you spray without flattening between coats, the hills and valleys get farther apart depth wise and the finish gets bumpy. The finish target you showed earlier was almost certainly done that way. You should be able to get a nice, flat, reflective surface.

One thing that will make it easier to sand without sanding through edges is a hard flat sanding block. You don't want the block to follow the contours of the finish, rather you're trying to "plane" the tops of the hills. I have a couple of these;

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=565

My air sanders have hard pads too, but you can do the same thing with hand sanding and elbow grease.


Unless Target has some mil thickness limit, you can keep going sand, spray, sand, spray etc. You could conceivably  fill the grain this way but it would take a while and you would want some fairly long wait times between or there's risk of having the finish shrink back over time, at least with finishes I'm accustomed to.

By the way, too thin of coats usually just make orange peel and  build more slowly. Ideally you want wet coats that are on the verge of sagging for best finish flow out, but that's a "feel" kind of thing you gain as you spray more, so stay in your comfort zone, I guess.

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #143 on: 7 Mar 2017, 05:30 pm »
Ed, I'd sure encourage some sanding and recoating, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the result. I'd consider 800 as a beginning of polishing steps, but would probably start at 400 or even 320 were I trying to flatten a finish.

Unless Target has some mil thickness limit, you can keep going sand, spray, sand, spray etc. You could conceivably  fill the grain this way but it would take a while and you would want some fairly long wait times between or there's risk of having the finish shrink back over time, at least with finishes I'm accustomed to.

Hi Peter, I will be sanding and recoating.  It is tempting to let them ride, they really do look a lot better than the pics show (BTW, those pics are under 1000 watts of halogen lighting, the color appears more orange in the pics than they appear real world), but I would like to buff it out some.  I picked up a new palm sander and high grit paper just for that purpose.  I will check to ensure the sanding pad is rigid enough to hit the high spots and not follow the surface imperfections.

The tops of the bass cabinets would need to be sanded regardless, they did not come out as smooth as the sides and front, likely due to overspray.

Best,
Ed

Peter J

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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #144 on: 7 Mar 2017, 08:18 pm »
Don't get me wrong, Ed. I'm not trying to dog what you're doing and I suppose it comes off that way. I just know you've put lots of effort into these thus far and I'm attempting, perhaps poorly, to be a cheerleader.

I think they'll be magnificent and certainly a statement.

And it sounds like you've figured out, sides first then tops to minimize overspray.

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #145 on: 7 Mar 2017, 09:32 pm »
Don't get me wrong, Ed. I'm not trying to dog what you're doing and I suppose it comes off that way. I just know you've put lots of effort into these thus far and I'm attempting, perhaps poorly, to be a cheerleader.

I think they'll be magnificent and certainly a statement.

And it sounds like you've figured out, sides first then tops to minimize overspray.

Not taken that way at all Peter, no worries.  I truly appreciate all of the information that you and others have offered in this thread.  I hope the information will help others attempting to go for more challenging finishes as well.

Best,
Ed

Captainhemo

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #146 on: 8 Mar 2017, 12:42 am »
One more thing I'll point out Ed and it' s likely obvious,  just be extra careful not to burn through as you've used a tint.  Should yo u go through, it may   make for a challanging fix.
the nice  thing about natural is if  there is any burn through,   it just   bleands right back in as soon as it is recovered.

I agree with Peter,  I think a few  rounds of  layers and sanding   will   have you  impressed  with  the results
You're almost there man   :beer:

jay

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #147 on: 8 Mar 2017, 12:56 am »
Thanks Jay.  I dyed the veneer spraying Transtint, so far my topcoat has been clear, so that shouldn't introduce any problems while sanding if I understand what you are cautioning me about.  However I decided I would put the pieces together tonight, what I found is that I will be tinting some topcoats once I have it leveled, I am going to have to even out the color between some of the individual pieces.

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #148 on: 21 Mar 2017, 02:22 am »
Ed,

What do you think of the EM6000? I'm considering ordering some for the MTM Oticas I'm building.

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #149 on: 22 Mar 2017, 01:48 am »
Ed,

What do you think of the EM6000? I'm considering ordering some for the MTM Oticas I'm building.

Mike
Mike,
I found the EM6000 easy to use in general, easy to apply.  You previously asked about the pot time, I would say that 5 hours is pretty close.  When I started spraying the entire project (as opposed to samples) I went through a lot more material, this meant it didn't sit in the gun as long and required me to tear the gun down and clean it more often than I noted earlier, about every other coat. 

I haven't had any time to work on them for the last couple weeks, so I haven't completed the process or seen the final product.  I hope to sand them this weekend and be ready to spray next weekend.  More as time allows.

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #150 on: 22 Mar 2017, 02:01 am »
Ed,

Thanks. I'm going to give it a try. On my current project I am using Old Masters Water Based Spar Urethane. With this I have to sand between each coat and pot time is 2 hours so I have to clean the gun between each coat as well.

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #151 on: 8 Apr 2017, 09:34 pm »
After a brief hiatus I was able to work on the speakers a bit today, they are now sanded and ready for another topcoat.  Jay, it took me about 3 seconds to see what you warned me about, I burned right through on a high spot. 

I am going to tint the next topcoat and even the pieces out a bit, then several more clear topcoats.

I am starting to understand why the high gloss speaker posted earlier in the thread took 40 coats, I will not be able to go that far, this Burl has a lot of "character", it would take many many coats to get to that level of finish.

Best,
Ed

Captainhemo

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #152 on: 9 Apr 2017, 07:53 pm »
Yeah, it happens  very quickly  on high spots and edges.   I like to block sand the entire cabinet before I start applying anything  (after veneering) to try and have a nice level surface to finish on.

It's always tricky  when  dealing witha   "colord' surface (tinted/dyed etc) as  burn thourgh can  make it tough to  get a nice even tone again. With natural, it's no big deal

I've been listening to a pair of these combined with a pair of  dual h-frames for about a week now  ,  i think you  are going to be  pretty happy when you're done 

jay

ACHiPo

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #153 on: 10 Apr 2017, 07:04 pm »
After a brief hiatus I was able to work on the speakers a bit today, they are now sanded and ready for another topcoat.  Jay, it took me about 3 seconds to see what you warned me about, I burned right through on a high spot. 

I am going to tint the next topcoat and even the pieces out a bit, then several more clear topcoats.

I am starting to understand why the high gloss speaker posted earlier in the thread took 40 coats, I will not be able to go that far, this Burl has a lot of "character", it would take many many coats to get to that level of finish.

Best,
Ed
Ed,
After about 50 coats of shellac and flattening, I finally got around to trying pore filler (I used Crystalac)--makes things go MUCH faster.  Unfortunately I ran out of patience and stopped before I got a truly defect-free finish (had I started with Crystalac it probably would have only taken 5-6 coats), but my turntable still looks pretty good.  I also had a recommendation to use Behlens Wool Lube, but I didn't receive it until after I gave up on the finish and put my 'table to work.

AC

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #154 on: 29 Apr 2017, 07:30 pm »
Thanks Jay, I am anxious to get these finished so I can hear them.

AC, I had a quart of the Crystalac here but decided not to use it, I might try it next time. :duh:

I mixed Transtint into my topcoat to even out the individual pieces, this worked out pretty well.  I have another gallon on order for the remaining clear coats.






Best,
Ed

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #155 on: 20 May 2017, 07:41 pm »
Haven't posted here lately, there hasn't been much to see.  I have just completed my 3rd course of flattening using 400 grit.  To date I have gone through 1.5 gallons of EM6000, I have nothing to really compare to personally, but that seems like a lot of material, there have been about 17-18 coats, I lost count.   It is about as close as I am going to get it, so my hope is that the last .5 gallons will carry through to completion. 

I tried the Crystalac on one interior panel, it did a reasonable job of filling in the cracks in the grain, cracks possibly a little larger than what it was made for, compared to oak for instance.  It took several coats and sanded clear, in the end I decided to let the imperfections in the veneer live on.

For those still playing along, here they are after the last sanding, will apply a couple of coats today and hope to finish with the last coats tomorrow.  Hopefully buffing out next weekend.







Best,
Ed

DeeJayBump

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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #156 on: 20 May 2017, 07:53 pm »
Fantastic journey. Thanks for sharing it with us, Ed.

Looking forward to seeing finished product.

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #157 on: 20 May 2017, 08:11 pm »
Ed

Looking good

I'm going to try the EM7000 high build lacquer next for that very reason. Fewer coats needed

Mike

Peter J

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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #158 on: 21 May 2017, 02:54 am »
I've long held that the finishing is at least half the build time when one is doing something special like these. Almost makes the woodwork look easy, eh?

They look good from here, are you pleased with the outcome, Ed?

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #159 on: 21 May 2017, 04:41 pm »
Fantastic journey. Thanks for sharing it with us, Ed.

Looking forward to seeing finished product.

Thanks DJB, happy to do it.  I can't wait to get tunes playing through them.

Ed

Looking good

I'm going to try the EM7000 high build lacquer next for that very reason. Fewer coats needed

Mike

Thanks Mike.  I considered th EM 7000 for the second gallon of this project, but I decided to stay with the 6000.  I am anxious to read your thoughts on the 7000, it would have been nice to use fewer coats and possibly have it fill in veneer imperfections more quickly.

I've long held that the finishing is at least half the build time when one is doing something special like these. Almost makes the woodwork look easy, eh?

They look good from here, are you pleased with the outcome, Ed?

Hi Peter, yes, that has been the case with these. I have learned a lot through the process, I believe I can save myself some time on future builds, but yes very time consuming.

They have flattened out quite a bit although not perfect. They will level out more with these last few coats and light sanding.  Something occurred to me after doing the last sanding, using an 11" piece of 1"x2" as a sanding block has probably slowed my progress versus using a smaller block that would not require as wide an area to be flat.  They are looking good, another coat or two and I am going to call it done, then on to my next new adventure, buffing out the finish! :lol:

I have been having an issue with my gun the last two coats, maybe someone here can offer a solution.  The gun was taken apart and cleaned prior to each time the problem occurred.  After spraying each of the last coats, when I tear the gun down I find dried material that looks like spiraled cellophane.  This has impacted the spray negatively.  There is not much to the sprayer, Wagner Control Spray Max, only about 6 pieces if you count the handle, plus the air supply.  It worked well the first gallon, no issue.  I can't imagine there being a difference in the material that could cause something like this, more likely I am doing something wrong, but I can't imagine what it would be.

This is where we are with the last two coats:





Best,
Ed