Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build

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mpauly

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #120 on: 30 Jan 2017, 02:49 am »
Beautiful work.  I've been watching this one closely as I'm going to take my first big foray into veneering with, but with some raw bubinga or high figure pommele sapele veneers that I picked up years ago but never had the nerve to use.  I've got lots of experience with working with solid woods, but this will be my first veneering project outside of some small trays and boxes I've made.

Regarding the finish, I'm kind of partial to the natural finish you have and think that red of a tint might be over powering on the full sized speaker, but that's just a matter of taste.  Do you think that the natural yellowing of an oil finish will work well with the red tint?  Have you done any tests with a few coats of boiled linseed oil  (BLO) followed by an oil finish (I also love Arm-R-Seal)?

Looking forward to the next installment. 

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #121 on: 31 Jan 2017, 03:40 am »
Thanks MPauly, I have been partial to clear finishes on veneered projects in the past as well, I am wanting to try something different with this build.  The spraying and the tint are both firsts for me.

I would like feedback on the following finishing schedule:

Tinting>Clear dewaxed shellac> lacquer

I would appreciate insights on spraying lacquer as the topcoat.

Best,
Ed





Peter J

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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #122 on: 31 Jan 2017, 08:03 am »
Ed, if you're going to spray lacquer, there's really no need for the shellac as a sealer. You can color lacquer with Transtint and many are self sealing, meaning they are their own basecoat/sanding sealer. Shellac has it's unique place in the finishing world, but lacquer sanding sealer would be as good or better in this case.

Years ago nitrocellulose lacquer was everywhere, then came catalyzed variants, precatalyzed (pre-cat) probably being the most common. Generally, catalyzed finishes add some durability, but film buildup needs to be monitored unlike nitro, which you can lay down coat after coat without worry for the most part. Before urethanes, polyesters and the like, lacquers were the workhorses of industry and can still be worked to an incredible finish via cutting and buffing. Get a run or sag? Sand it flat and recoat. Unlike polyurethanes and varnishes, lacquer slightly melts into previous coats which makes it very forgiving. The reason it's not as popular has mostly to do with the solvents and availability.

If you've ever sprayed Deft from a spray can, that's nitro lacquer. What brands do you have access too?

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #123 on: 1 Feb 2017, 12:24 am »
Thanks for that Peter.  I am looking at the Deft Lacquer available from Amazon in quarts, it states that it is Nitrocellulose.  I thought I would start with gloss and finish with a satin to keep it clear as possible up to the final coat unless of course I decide to stay with gloss.

Regarding tinting the lacquer, when I tinted the shellac and compared to the tinting followed by shellac, I felt the character of the veneer came through more clearly when the wood was tinted followed by the shellac.  I can't imagine the result would be different using lacquer, please let me know if this is not accurate.

I have a concern regarding odor, I have read that it can remain for 3 weeks or better, this is a concern for me, I am working in an attached garage, is this odor strong enough to smell up the house or is it closer to shellac and/or denatured alcohol?  The other issue is temperature, I have been told that shellac can be sprayed down into the 30's, is lacquer the same?  The garage doesn't get that cold, it is heated, but I would like to open the doors when spraying.

Best,
Ed
« Last Edit: 1 Feb 2017, 02:18 am by ebag4 »

Peter J

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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #124 on: 1 Feb 2017, 03:03 am »
The clouding of the grain is kinda dependent on the amount of tint, I suppose. There's a lot of lore surrounding it to, but that's another subject. It can even out color and in some cases that's a plus. But suffice to say you can do nearly the same thing with spraying tint. I sometimes spray a seal coat of clear and then tint on top of that. If I were using it with lacquer, I'd make the tint with lacquer thinner. Turn material flow down on your gun and it's really controllable. You can darken specific areas if you want. FWIW, almost any commercially made furniture has toner in the finish somewhere.

Odor?..well it stinks and there'll be overspray too. Some people find it unbearable, me not so much but my nose is probably shot. For sure use a respirator. Three weeks sounds like a stretch, but if you exhaust the fumes somehow and drape things with cheapo painters plastic and then throw that away, I don't think it'd be a problem. If your furnace is gas and in the garage where it would be exposed to the vapor, you'll want to shut if off while spraying. Lacquer dust is very flammable, part of the reason it's not used much in the DIY world.

I have heard of people renting Uhauls and using them as spray booths, but never done it. I've sprayed in pretty cool conditions, but generally above 50° F will get you better flow out of finish. You can add some thinner too. 

Might want do a practice run somehow so you know the ropes before committing on your masterpiece.

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #125 on: 26 Feb 2017, 12:22 am »
Since my last post to this thread little progress has been made until today.  The time I have had to work on this build has been spent trying different finishes and tints.  Looking further into clear coats I decided on a water borne lacquer, the Target Finishes EM6000.  I had never worked with the solvent based lacquers so I decided to go straight to something that will be readily available into the future, that and the low odor were the primary considerations.

I wasn't really getting the result I wanted with the red tint so after reviewing the color of the veneer in the first post, I realized that it was closer to orange than it was red.  I picked up some orange tint, that with a few drops of red turned out to be where I ended up.  I will follow with two coats of the sealcoat and denatured alcohol.  I will follow that with multiple coats of the EM6000 waiting a week before applying.

For those still playing along, a couple of pics:







Tomorrow, shellac.

Best,
Ed
« Last Edit: 26 Feb 2017, 04:08 pm by ebag4 »

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #126 on: 26 Feb 2017, 12:41 am »
Ed,

Looking good  :thumb:

Is the week wait between coats what the product calls for or your time constraints? Or did I read it wrong and the week wait is between the sealcoat and the lacquer?

How do you plan to apply the topcoat?

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #127 on: 26 Feb 2017, 12:46 am »
Thanks Mike.  The week is between the sealcoat and the topcoat.  The topcoat can be re-applied after 30 minutes.  It burns in according to the documentation.

I am spraying everything.

Best,
Ed

rockdrummer

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #128 on: 26 Feb 2017, 12:49 am »
Nice color Ed. I really envy the patience and expertise it takes to veneer.

Using a shellac for my bottlehead stereomour base but I'm foam brushing that.

Awesome work.
Ben

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #129 on: 26 Feb 2017, 01:03 am »
Thanks Ben.  This is the first time I have sprayed other than the duplicolor I used on the Wedgies and Kaiju.  I picked up a Wagner sprayer for this project, so far it seems to do a good job.

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #130 on: 26 Feb 2017, 01:23 am »
Thanks Ben.  This is the first time I have sprayed other than the duplicolor I used on the Wedgies and Kaiju.  I picked up a Wagner sprayer for this project, so far it seems to do a good job.

Best,
Ed

Ed,

HVLP?

What kind of pot time do you have with this particular lacquer and what is clean up like both between coats and when done for the day?

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #131 on: 26 Feb 2017, 01:57 am »
Ed,

HVLP?

What kind of pot time do you have with this particular lacquer and what is clean up like both between coats and when done for the day?

Mike
Yes, HVLP, it is this unit:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003PGQI48/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have sprayed test pieces over the course of a day, 6 hrs or so, without issue, but that is the limit of my experience, I am still figuring this out.

Clean up has been fairly simple with this gun, it is easy to take apart and only 3 pieces.

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #132 on: 26 Feb 2017, 02:10 am »
Ed,

Do you have to empty and clean it between each coat or only at the end of the 6 hours?

Mike

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #133 on: 26 Feb 2017, 02:17 am »
I have only cleaned it at the end of the day, no more than 5 hrs or so.  I haven't noticed any issues, but again, these have been small samples. In that 5 hrs I would have sprayed about 7 coats.

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #134 on: 26 Feb 2017, 02:30 am »
Ed,

That's good to hear because my gun is more complicated and a royal pain if I have to empty it and clean it out between each coat. That's been one of the drawbacks I've had with spraying: spray for 30 seconds to a minute; spend 15 minutes breaking down and cleaning gun; 15 minutes later, reassemble gun, spray for 30 seconds or so; repeat.

I'll be staying tuned to see how the topcoat works out.

Mike

Captainhemo

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #135 on: 26 Feb 2017, 05:18 pm »
Love the color Ed  8)
Not a lacquer expert by any mens but  I know  with the sovent based  lacquer, it's important to keep the coats   very light to fast , even  dry times.  Some guys have told me it can take   a month or more for  lacquer  to fully cure one a top coat is built up.... keep   the cabinets away from the cold... trust me  :(

jay

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #136 on: 26 Feb 2017, 07:11 pm »
Thanks Jay, I am happy with the way it is turning out.  According to the documentation, this topcoat is fully cured at 120hrs, the samples I sprayed were easily handled in far less time.  I am hoping we continue to have mild weather here, but I am able to keep the area warm.

After spraying shellac today I can see that I am going to have to spread out my painting area, I am getting some overspray in the back. 

Here they are with shellac, next weekend topcoat.







Best,
Ed

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #137 on: 6 Mar 2017, 03:47 am »
After 10 topcoats:
















They are turning out pretty well.  I have learned a lot and wish I had done a couple of things differently.  I was very cautious with the amount of shellac I applied as a sealer on top of the tint.  The instructions per Target Coatings was to cut the Zinsser seal coat with an equal amount of denatured alcohol and apply 2 coats.  I applied 3, however where I narrowed the spray for the front and rear of the bass cabs (resulting in additional product being applied), the finish came out with a greater glow compared to the rest of the build.  Next time I will probably make shellac from flakes so I can cover completely and not worry about crazing, which is the problem with the Zinnser under the em6000 when the Zinnser is applied too thickly.

Overall I am happy with the finish.   Am considering buffing it out, but because I did not fill the pores prior to finishing there will be imperfections, I am not certain how that will look with a highly buffed finish.

Best,
Ed
« Last Edit: 6 Mar 2017, 06:26 am by ebag4 »

Peter J

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Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #138 on: 6 Mar 2017, 02:28 pm »
You're getting there, Ed.

Did you sand flat between some of those ten coats?

You can cut and buff even without grain filling, I've done it many times with solvent based finishes.  What does Target say about it with their product? Many water borne finishes cure by coalescing on top of prior coat so you get halos where you sand into all but the top coat. It's not always a good idea, I've fought similar with polyurethane.

ebag4

Re: Veneer Question/ NX Ottica MTM-H Frame Servo Bass Build
« Reply #139 on: 6 Mar 2017, 05:05 pm »
Thanks Peter.  They actually look better than my poor photography shows.

The EM6000 is supposed to have full burn in like Nitro, so no witness lines, although I have read where some have had an issue with with witness lines using this product.

One gentleman has a youtube video of him buffing out the EM6000 on a guitar.  He starts "leveling" with 800 grit dry, then moves onto 1500 grit wet, followed by 2000 grit wet, then buffs it out on a buffing wheel, my plan was to do something similar now.  However, as you mentioned I should have doe a sanding at an intermediate level, probably 5 coats, then finished with the 5 additional coats, the gentleman with the guitar did at 6 coats.  I think I will sand on these a bit, testing on one section before doing it on the entire build.

Best,
Ed