LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 20398 times.

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #60 on: 25 Mar 2016, 10:07 pm »
The MS-3 and dspMusik have arrived at Forest Dweller's place for LS-9 crossover trials.  Modding his LS-9's to move the passive crossover externally for measurements, then trials with the dspMusik crossover running his Bryston 7BST's.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2016, 11:52 am by HAL »

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #61 on: 31 Mar 2016, 01:58 pm »
For this digital crossover, will be trying the high performance biquad filters in the Audio Weaver software for the dspMusik. 

The PC laptop running Windows XP to run CLIO 8 system is setup and calibrated to send for the passive crossover measurements for the LS-9's.  Will be packing that system up and shipping it next week.  Might have to include my Parasound Z-Amp v3 to make the measurements, as the customers amps have H-Bridge outputs and CLIO has a single ended input system. 

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #62 on: 9 Apr 2016, 11:34 pm »
After discussions, will be sending the new Pocket CLIO measurement system and Parasound Z-Amp v3 for the LS-9 crossover measurements.

The passive crossovers are now external to the LS-9's to attach the CLIO input leads for the measurements. 

Will be doing a short document to show how the measurements are made and shipping the system to the customer to test his speakers.

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #63 on: 15 May 2016, 12:11 pm »
The complete Audiomatica Pocket CLIO system and MS-1 computer is with the customer with the Angel City Audio and Skiing Ninja built LS-9's at this time.  He is unpacking and setting it up for passive crossover measurements.

His normal amps have balanced outputs, so sent a Dayton Audio APA-100 stereo amp to use that has grounded outputs needed to work with the Pocket CLIO for measurements. 

Once the measurements are complete, the data will be sent to use to create the digital crossover design.


HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #64 on: 30 May 2016, 03:21 am »
The first trials of the LS-9 with HAL MS-3 and dspMusik setup occurred today with a prototype digital crossover.

First listening was 4-5 hours and so far he is very happy.  Next up is the full set of measurements, full crossover and speaker correction. 

Each array has it's own level set for exact matching with measured SPL from the UMM-6 mic and REW. 




S Clark

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4967
  • Measurements don't make your toes tap
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #65 on: 30 May 2016, 03:32 am »
Would this mean that I could get rid of all the room treatments that have transformed our living room into something similar to your laboratory? The LS 9's are great speakers, but not the easiest to get right.   Something like that could make my wife VERY happy. 

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #66 on: 30 May 2016, 03:40 am »
Scott,
Forest Dweller has lots of GIK room treatments with his setup.  I would empathically say no to getting rid of them.  I am not getting rid of mine either.

What this should do is the next level of LS-9 integration with the room to your listening position. 




Captainhemo

Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #67 on: 30 May 2016, 03:43 am »
 
Would this mean that I could get rid of all the room treatments that have transformed our living room into something similar to your laboratory? The LS 9's are great speakers, but not the easiest to get right.   Something like that could make my wife VERY happy.

 :lol:

S Clark

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4967
  • Measurements don't make your toes tap
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #68 on: 30 May 2016, 03:50 am »

 :lol:
Well, I could always hope.  My wife is a saint... putting up with LS9's, massive room treatments, mystery UPS packages (often from HAL), eccentric husband...

Captainhemo

Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #69 on: 30 May 2016, 04:41 am »
Well, I could always hope.  My wife is a saint... putting up with LS9's, massive room treatments, mystery UPS packages (often from HAL), eccentric husband...

Scott,
I wasn't amused by you wanting to get rid of the treatment (we'd  all love to be able to do that right ? ), kind of found it  funny at the reference of turning your living room into  Rich's  lab  :thumb:

We often hear people complain about WAF,  seldom are the women that put up with our "sickness"  mentioned. Sounds like you're one of the fortunate ones  :beer:

jay

ja

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #70 on: 30 May 2016, 10:05 am »
Jay,
My wife and I came to an agreement.  I have the basement and she has the top floor. 

I put a door on the basement and close it to carry on the audio experiments in the Lab.  My listening room is basically sound proof with it's door closed. :D

More feedback is that he was up most of the night listening and could not stop.  I think we are making progress!

Scott,
Mystery UPS packages are fun!   :D

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #71 on: 30 May 2016, 11:44 am »
As a point of reference, the LS-9's are one of my favorite speaker designs of all time.  Ranks up there with the Infinity IRS Reference V's. 

Danny's passive crossovers are some of the best I have ever heard.  If you do not start with a reference design like the LS-9's, you really never know if you are making sonic progress.  There are a lot of crappy crossover designs out there, so anything is sonic progress in those cases.   

The test crossover being demo'd is a 6 pole Butterworth design for high pass and low pass at the original crossover frequency of the LS-9's.  No bass EQ at this point, just flat.  Nothing fancy, just very accurate for both channels. 

THROWBACK

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 226
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #72 on: 30 May 2016, 01:07 pm »
Just curious, HAL. I have always heard that, if possible, a first-order x-over was the way to go. Did you play with a first-order (6dB/octave) x-over before you settled on a sixth-order? I called BG several years ago and was told that the NEO-8's, especially in multiple arrays, could take a shallower high-pass slope without a problem. Looking at the curves of the cone midranges, I conclude that the cones could be operated higher, such that a first-order x-over could be used as a low-pass filter as well. I'm already running my cones without attenuation at the low end.

So, it seems that a first-order x-over at a higher x-over point is at least feasible, and - - theoretically, at least - - desirable. I'm chicken to try it, but I don't mind your blowing up your own speakers or lab in the interests of science.

Not that I am at all dissatisfied with what I have. My Danny Ritchie 9's are the best speakers I have ever had (many, many really good ones, including KLH-9s and Maggie 20.1s) or heard (a veteran of many shows), but I can't help wanting to mess around with them. "They're coming to take me away, away . . ."


HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #73 on: 30 May 2016, 01:28 pm »
THROWBACK,
This was the first idea to make an acoustic 8 pole filter roll off to keep the same polarity drive to both drivers.

Since single pole filter roll off adds to the existing driver roll off, it would be about a 3 pole filter at the crossover point.  That would put the drivers phases off and not work well.  Possibly a 2 pole filter for a 4 pole acoustic crossover that would be in phase might work.

The dspMusik's processing is very clean.  I doubt that going to lower number of poles will increase sonic performance, and the higher number of poles will increase power handling in the speakers.  Not that the LS-9's really need that.

It really is all about the measurements to be done.

Danny Richie

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 11673
    • http://www.gr-research.com
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #74 on: 30 May 2016, 03:16 pm »
Just curious, HAL. I have always heard that, if possible, a first-order x-over was the way to go. Did you play with a first-order (6dB/octave) x-over before you settled on a sixth-order? I called BG several years ago and was told that the NEO-8's, especially in multiple arrays, could take a shallower high-pass slope without a problem. Looking at the curves of the cone midranges, I conclude that the cones could be operated higher, such that a first-order x-over could be used as a low-pass filter as well. I'm already running my cones without attenuation at the low end.

So, it seems that a first-order x-over at a higher x-over point is at least feasible, and - - theoretically, at least - - desirable. I'm chicken to try it, but I don't mind your blowing up your own speakers or lab in the interests of science.

Not that I am at all dissatisfied with what I have. My Danny Ritchie 9's are the best speakers I have ever had (many, many really good ones, including KLH-9s and Maggie 20.1s) or heard (a veteran of many shows), but I can't help wanting to mess around with them. "They're coming to take me away, away . . ."


First order filters are not really possible with line sources. As frequency decreases you get coupling, but as frequency increases you do not. So the passive parts first and foremost have to adjust for that. They it takes a couple of additional parts to create the crossing over slope and adjust for phase.

And when BG says the tweeters will handle it, what they really means is that they will handle it power wise. It doesn't mean that the response curve will look like anything.

Plus, these really shine with lower crossover points. The lower crossover point minimizes cancellation in the horizontal off axis that you would have with typical line sources that have higher crossover points.  At longer wavelengths the off axis phase rotation is just a few degrees. While at higher crossover points phase rotation in the off axis will be extreme and cause cancellation.

And the differences in the low crossover points are easily heard. The LS-6's cross at 1kHz and the LS-9's cross at 850Hz. This isn't a chosen crossover  point either. It is where the line natural begins to roll off. The longer  line of tweeters have more low frequency coupling. And the LS-9 has a little better resolution and detail than the LS-6 as the tweeters pick up the response a little sooner.

HAL

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3705
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #75 on: 31 May 2016, 05:10 pm »
Updated LS-9 crossover running and good feedback on sound so far.  This test has flat response low pass filter for the woofers, no EQ.

Will be interesting to read the write-up in work with pictures.

Last step is trying MathAudio Room EQ with them as well.  The Dayton Audio UMM-6 measurement mic is with the kit of demo gear to try.

THROWBACK

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 226
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #76 on: 1 Jun 2016, 12:44 pm »
HAL, Dannie. Thanks for the response. I'll give up on the first-order x-over idea. I'd write more, but I just received a marvelous rendition of the Bruckner 8th (Karajan/EMI original) and I have listened only to the adagio movement. Sublime.

bdp24

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 881
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #77 on: 1 Jun 2016, 01:08 pm »

First order filters are not really possible with line sources. As frequency decreases you get coupling, but as frequency increases you do not. So the passive parts first and foremost have to adjust for that. They it takes a couple of additional parts to create the crossing over slope and adjust for phase.

And when BG says the tweeters will handle it, what they really means is that they will handle it power wise. It doesn't mean that the response curve will look like anything.

Plus, these really shine with lower crossover points. The lower crossover point minimizes cancellation in the horizontal off axis that you would have with typical line sources that have higher crossover points.  At longer wavelengths the off axis phase rotation is just a few degrees. While at higher crossover points phase rotation in the off axis will be extreme and cause cancellation.

And the differences in the low crossover points are easily heard. The LS-6's cross at 1kHz and the LS-9's cross at 850Hz. This isn't a chosen crossover  point either. It is where the line natural begins to roll off. The longer  line of tweeters have more low frequency coupling. And the LS-9 has a little better resolution and detail than the LS-6 as the tweeters pick up the response a little sooner.

Danny, there are some guys over at the Planar Speaker Asylum who have substituted six NEO 8's aligned vertically as a line source in place of the stock midrange driver in the old Magneplanar Tympani T-IV speaker, wiring them so as to achieve a 5-6 ohm load. They are using symmetrical 1st order filters, low pass for the T-IV woofer panels and high pass for the NEO's at around 250Hz, and the same arrangement at around 6-8kHz, low pass for the NEO's and high pass for the T-IV ribbon tweeter. Do you feel the simple symmetrical 1st order filters alone are inadequate for what the six NEO 8 drivers require in this specific line source application?

Danny Richie

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 11673
    • http://www.gr-research.com
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #78 on: 1 Jun 2016, 03:12 pm »
Danny, there are some guys over at the Planar Speaker Asylum who have substituted six NEO 8's aligned vertically as a line source in place of the stock midrange driver in the old Magneplanar Tympani T-IV speaker, wiring them so as to achieve a 5-6 ohm load. They are using symmetrical 1st order filters, low pass for the T-IV woofer panels and high pass for the NEO's at around 250Hz, and the same arrangement at around 6-8kHz, low pass for the NEO's and high pass for the T-IV ribbon tweeter. Do you feel the simple symmetrical 1st order filters alone are inadequate for what the six NEO 8 drivers require in this specific line source application?

Yeah, that won't work for a number of reasons.

And low order crossovers can work great for low crossover points, but the Neo 8's really won't play that low. And the crossover becomes more of a correction filter for the coupling down low verses what they do up high. So it requires a lot more than one part. A whole line of the much larger Neo 10's will barely play to just below 200Hz. No way on the Neo 8's.

And the Neo 8's actually play to nearly 40kHz. So why cross them to something else? And crossing them at 6-8kHz using a first order crossover will cause out of phase cancellations just above that point. Plus very slight movements to either side will cause out of phase cancellation in multiple places and they will be 15db suck outs. No if ands or buts about it. That will cause cancellations in the horizontal plane all over the place.

bdp24

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 881
Re: LS-9 and LS-6 digital crossover interest
« Reply #79 on: 1 Jun 2016, 09:36 pm »
Glad I asked! I saw a frequency response graph for the NEO 8, and it looked like it nose-dives above about 10k. Are you sure it's not the NEO 3 that goes out to 40k?