Dedicated 2 Channel Room

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maxboy00

Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:00 pm »
I will be finishing my basement and will have about a 16'X20' dedicated room. I confused on the best approach to frame this room. I have read here and well as other sites that double dry wall with staggered studs and green glue is the way to go.  One of the contractor's advised against this design and recommend a "HAT clip system" using 5/8" drywall. Is this a good method to achieve good sound, of course there will be GIK treatments used as well. Per this contractor the main concern is the type of door.

Most important is to limit sound transfer from the basement to the up stairs, but the fact is anything will be better than the cramped spare bedroom I'm using now.

So what is the accepted build standard that allows for good sound, without going overboard.


Thanks for any input.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #1 on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:03 pm »
Hey Max,
You posted in the Home Theater section. I'm going to move this over to the acoustics Circle.
Good luck on the build!

Bob

maxboy00

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #2 on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:06 pm »
Sorry my bad.

TomS

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #3 on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:09 pm »
I've found some great tutorials that may answer several of your questions on this site:

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/

Most builders don't really know much about this sort thing and just want the job to be easier and/or more profitable.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #4 on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:15 pm »
Sorry my bad.
No worries man, it's all good.  :thumb:

Big Red Machine

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #5 on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:30 pm »
One of the contractor's advised against this design and recommend a "HAT clip system" using 5/8" drywall. Is this a good method to achieve good sound, of course there will be GIK treatments used as well. Per this contractor the main concern is the type of door.

Most important is to limit sound transfer from the basement to the up stairs,

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/isomax.html

If you are serious, then hat channel and iso clips with double drywall is the way to go.  All walls and ceiling.  You caulk the interfaces between walls and ceiling and wall corners so each can flex on their own but you get a seal.  Overlap the drywall joints.  If you go to AVS forum under the HT construction threads you will get HT after HT of in-process builds to see what they are doing.

And this really works.  I was 85 db inside my room and less than 50 outside it using double exterior metal doors (the insulated ones).

bpape

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Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #6 on: 30 Jun 2014, 01:05 pm »
The other option is to use DC-04 clips to decouple the walls from the ceiling, then use double drywall and green glue (assuming transmission to the next room isn't as important - if it is, then do the staggered stud wall isolated using the DC-04 clips.  That decouples all of the walls from physically vibrating the floor above.  Then use RSIC-1 or RSIC-V clips and hat channel on the ceiling.

Bryan

FullRangeMan

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Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #7 on: 30 Jun 2014, 02:14 pm »
Quote from: maxboy00
So what is the accepted build standard that allows for good sound, without going overboard.


Thanks for any input.
Look at this old thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107352.msg1183456#msg1183456

maxboy00

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #8 on: 30 Jun 2014, 02:47 pm »
Much thanks for the info,

The consensus seems to be a" HAT system" with walls/ceilings having double dry wall.

If I were to use a single layer of dry wall on the walls and double on the ceiling, since I am more concern about sound transfer to the upstairs. Would that  be a viable option?  The "HAT system" would also be used as well in this option.

Thanks

 

JLM

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Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #9 on: 30 Jun 2014, 04:35 pm »
First, get the shape of the room right to reduce echo in the room.  Read Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction".  I followed Cardas for my 2-channel room (8 ft x 13 ft x 21 ft) to good effect.

Second worry about sound transmission (in and out) of the room.  Insulated (loose/batts of fiberglass) staggered stud interior walls are probable the lowest cost option.  I added an insulated exterior fiberglass door (with threshold/weather stripping), lined fiberglass insulated flexible duct (can't hear the furnace), and dedicated circuits for the audio equipment.

My failing was the ceiling as the builder didn't want to do the gage metal channels (and I used recessed can light fixtures).  Even with 12 inches of insulation above (we have 16 inch deep floor trusses) the kitchen/mud room sounds come through.  So for lighting my advice is to do wall sonces or ceiling mounted track lights.

maxboy00

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #10 on: 4 Jul 2014, 10:52 am »
Has anyone used MLV? I have been reading about this product and think it might be the solution. Doing double dry wall is going to be cost prohibitive . The room will have two walls against the foundation, I though about using the MLV to the non foundation walls and ceiling. From what I have read MLV does not need to have the wall studs  staggered and hangs like a drape over the studs, insulation will need to be added between the studs. As for there ceiling I still think all need to use a HAT system to decouple the ceiling from the room above, but maybe the MLV is all I need, from there I can treat the room.

JLM

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Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #11 on: 4 Jul 2014, 01:13 pm »
MLV = Mass Loaded Vinyl

Found a nice website, at least they mention industry standard STC (Sound Transmission Coefficient).  But:

 - Like most products is least effective where energy levels are greatest (below 125 Hz)
 - To be effective the entire room envelope must be sealed (not clear how effective taped seams would be)
 - The STC rating of 26 - 32 dB for this product is about a 1/3rd less than a standard insulated stud wall
 - Staggered studs would be cheaper (roughly $1000 for your room in the product I glanced at) and more effective


HAT = resilient channel

To avoid "short circuiting" make sure drywall screws don't extend past the depth of the channel (into the joists/studs), use 25 gauge (no heavier), not all brands are created equal (most are simple hat shape cross section gauge metal, but more effective products like "QuietClips" are more effective but require more depth).


Don't forget ventilation, door, and window noise transmission.  And if MLV or resilient channel is used special consideration should be given to electrical boxes (avoid recessed can light fixtures).

mcgsxr

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #12 on: 4 Jul 2014, 02:23 pm »
When I built up my basement last winter, I paid some attention to sound transmission, but did not try to build a sound proof room by any means.

The compromises I had to make were numerous, but in the end I can measure significant reduction in sound transmission from the basement to the main floor and bedroom levels.

For the basement, I did the easy stuff.  5/8 drywall ceiling (single layer, directly attached to joists), Roxul safe n sound in all the joist bays in the ceiling, and all interior walls too, Roxul safe n sound door at the top of the stairs, door sweep and weatherstripping around the door, and I stuffed my bulkhead (where the HVAC main trunk line runs) with pink insulation.

With roughly 85-90db peaks in the basement, it is 25-40db quieter upstairs using an app on an iPad for SPL.  Not scientific at all.

I can listen at any sane level anytime of the day for music.  Movies with significant bass (keep in mind I have a 500w amp and a DIY 2x12 sub) will transmit vibration to the whole house if played over 85db in the basement.

The only real sound transmission from main floor down to basement is footfalls.  Using hat channel on the ceiling would have helped a lot, but confusion between my contractor and my electrician during the install of the 23 pot lights made using hat channel not likely.

If I were to go back and change anything, it would only be to use hat channel for the ceiling.

I did all the sound proofing work myself, so it added only the material cost.  Less than 1K added cost for the door, Roxul  etc for the 500 square foot basement project.

Have fun!

Search the Home Improvement circle for the couple of threads I documented during the build, there were excellent suggestions along the way including installing conduit in the walls and ceiling for ease of future wiring changes or projector etc.  I built in a media closet to house all the main gear, and it makes for such a clean install visually.

warnerwh

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #13 on: 21 Jul 2014, 10:40 pm »
I will be finishing my basement and will have about a 16'X20' dedicated room. I confused on the best approach to frame this room. I have read here and well as other sites that double dry wall with staggered studs and green glue is the way to go.  One of the contractor's advised against this design and recommend a "HAT clip system" using 5/8" drywall. Is this a good method to achieve good sound, of course there will be GIK treatments used as well. Per this contractor the main concern is the type of door.

Most important is to limit sound transfer from the basement to the up stairs, but the fact is anything will be better than the cramped spare bedroom I'm using now.

So what is the accepted build standard that allows for good sound, without going overboard.



My room I started with the same issues as you face. I spaced the studs on 16" centers so as to be to code. With the living room directly above I had to minimize sound transfer. Being as I listen to music at a fairly loud level I really was concerned.
 
The most important thing was to keep sound out of the living room. I put three layers on the ceiling. First was drywall then I ran resilient channel with drywall attached to it. Finally I put acoustic tile on that second layer of drywall. My room is live end dead end with bass traps. It's very quiet in here. Acoustics are excellent. I have had a good share of "Wows".

The sound making it to the living room can still be a bit much if you're trying to watch tv. The bass goes through to the living room close to full force. I can turn up my stereo but not as much as I'd like sometimes unless nobody is up there.

This is an older house with real wood 2x4's that are full size and much heavier than today's woods used for building houses. My point is it's the mass that is key here. I'd be wary of listening to a builder as what they are used to isn't as severe of a problem as we likely deal with. If you can afford using lead that will help immensely.

Just thought I'd let you know what my experience is. My system has very large full range speakers as well as a sub for the very bottom. If you don't listen very loudly say peaks to 80db max you will be fine. If I had it to do again I'd add another layer sheet rock. Btw acoustic treatment is mandatory for the best sound. I will argue that it can make speakers sound better than going to significantly more expensive speakers.  Good luck

maxboy00

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #14 on: 22 Jul 2014, 11:54 am »
Much thanks for the ideas and suggestion!

At this point the plan is shaping up to be staggered studs on the non foundations walls, sound control insulation R-30 in all walls and ceiling with a clip system on the ceiling using 5/8" drywall. . . single layer. There will also be a solid core door. Compromises . . .  of course, in the end it should turn out nice, time will tell. 

Rob Babcock

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Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #15 on: 23 Jul 2014, 06:36 am »
I think your basic plan is sound.  I'll be following your build-out with interest. :thumb:

maxboy00

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #16 on: 25 Oct 2014, 09:56 am »
Bringing back the thread after being dormant for awhile!

The build is almost complete, drywall and ceiling is now finished, the room is a nice size 20 ft X 14 ft. The non foundation walls have R-13 insulation with staggered stud.  The ceiling is R-19 insulation,  it  was suppose to be R-30 but the depth of the joist was not deep enough for insulation that thick. Even at this stage the room is quite, don't hear anything from the floor above. Hope to move in by mid November.

Tim




Guy 13

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #17 on: 25 Oct 2014, 01:41 pm »
Bringing back the thread after being dormant for awhile!

The build is almost complete, drywall and ceiling is now finished, the room is a nice size 20 ft X 14 ft. The non foundation walls have R-13 insulation with staggered stud.  The ceiling is R-19 insulation,  it  was suppose to be R-30 but the depth of the joist was not deep enough for insulation that thick. Even at this stage the room is quite, don't hear anything from the floor above. Hope to move in by mid November.

Tim

Hi Tim.
I hope you will post some pictures of the before, during and/or after build.

Guy 13

jimdgoulding

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #18 on: 18 Dec 2014, 01:38 pm »

I'm bettin music sounds pretty darned good here.  Anybody got a particular speculative favorite set-up you'd post?  Yours (which wouldn't be speculative in that case) or anybody's that you think might be favorably abetting those old sound waveforms of ours?  I got this from the AC photo gallery.  It belongs to a chap in Brooklyn if memory serves.  Ok, Maxboy, if I include this post and encourage others in this thread of yours?  Good listening to you, sir.

PS-  And check out this bad boy in a basement:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=75352

JoshK

Re: Dedicated 2 Channel Room
« Reply #19 on: 18 Dec 2014, 02:18 pm »
That is Occam's (Paul) system.  I've been there, but not since he got those speakers.