Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?

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dgarratt

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Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« on: 1 Sep 2014, 11:41 pm »
Hi Guys,

How important are spikes on a carpeted surface which is laid over a concrete slab? I have a 2nd hand set of B&W 802's which are really heavy and are wondering if it's worth the effort of installing the supplied spikes given the weight of each speaker?

Thanks in advance.

walterslw

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #1 on: 2 Sep 2014, 01:06 am »
I have a similar set up, VSA VR5 anniversary MK II, these are new, but every speaker system I've owned in the past (always set up in a poured concrete basement), sound better with spikes.   I too have padding directly on the concrete with carpet on top.   IME, once you have your speakers in the appropriate position, spiking them will tighten up the base, and open up the top end.   This may be partially due to the slight change in height, or the fact that the speakers themselves are not sitting directly on the floor, but anchored to the floor...  Give it a try, but make sure to use a level so that your side to side is level.  You may also want a couple of degrees of rake front to back (depending on tastes and speakers).    For me I prefer about a 2 degree tilt front to back, meaning the front is slightly higher than the back of the speaker, I find this helps with the stage, and top end.  Of course every room is different so you may need to experiment with and without rake.   

dgarratt

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #2 on: 2 Sep 2014, 04:29 am »
Some good advice..thanks walterslw.

Grit

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #3 on: 2 Sep 2014, 08:26 am »
I'd love to read about your findings. I have kids and large dogs, so i don't feel comfortable putting speakers on spikes.

werd

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #4 on: 2 Sep 2014, 06:03 pm »
Yes Spikes and good footings (equally important)

redbook

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #5 on: 2 Sep 2014, 06:57 pm »
  Years of tiring experimenting has proved to me (IMO) that spiking will tighten base as well as securing the units to the surface. I have also placed   1lb flat lead sinkers under  the spikes for further acoustic isolation. :thumb:

amblin

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #6 on: 2 Sep 2014, 08:02 pm »
Use the spikes whenever possible. My PMC mb2i's weights around 110 pounds each excluding stand. It was quite an effort to install the spikes and my custom sinkers (1.5 dia , 1 inch thick solid tungsten cut from a 99.95% purity bar). I thought about making several spikes out of tungsten but it was the hell of a metal to work with any degree of precision and it's too brittle to go under a huge 'bookshelf' on stand.
 
Regarding safety , the 802 IIRC is heavier and the center of gravity is very low, so it should be fine even if a Great Dane knocked on it head on. :green:

DaveC113

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #7 on: 2 Sep 2014, 09:38 pm »

David Cutler

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #8 on: 3 Sep 2014, 02:11 am »
I always used to go for spiked feet into carpet for floor standing speakers and spikes top and bottom of the stands for stand mount speakers.  I mean, that’s the first thing you do to improve your Hi-Fi.  The speaker manufacturers supply spikes and the aftermarket suppliers supply them.  It must be right?  Stop the speaker cabinet moving, allow the drivers to do their job, improve imaging.

Indeed, imaging improves and bass extension gets better, however, at realistic levels (90+dB), a wide bandwidth speaker with spiked feet starts driving the floor.  Walk around barefoot whilst playing music with bass and percussion, you will feel it through your feet.

I realised it was happening when certain bass notes in my listening room (with a suspended timber floor) were significantly louder than others and that low frequency decay was excessive – Percussion was not as tight as through headphones.  The room itself had fairly extensive bass trapping and diffusion – the problem was that the floor was being driven by the loudspeakers.

The perceived wisdom is to mass-damp the system by putting the spiked footed, floor standing speakers on top of heavy, inert blocks e.g. paving slabs, granite blocks etc.  This improved the situation but still there were problem frequencies and the decay time was still too high.

I realised that the suspended floor was acting like a soundboard with the speakers driving it.  The cavity under the floor didn’t help.

Adding mass under the speaker had reduced the problems but ultimately, hadn’t worked (I had an 80kg granite block under each speaker).  I needed to stop the floor resonating.  The answer – replace the floor with a solid concrete floor!

So, 6 months and 10 tonnes of concrete later with new decorations and fitted carpet, the room treatment and Hi-Fi was setup back in the room.  The spike footed speakers this time directly onto the carpet.  After listening for some time, with a wide range of music, there was a marked improvement compared to the old room setup, however…  at certain frequencies the floor was still being driven by the speakers and there was still decay time issues – nowhere as bad as with the wooden suspended floor, but still noticeable and annoying.

After fairly extensive research, I realised that as long as the speakers had spiked feet the speakers would continue to push energy into the floor and cause the floor to resonate at certain frequencies.  The solution was remove the spiked feet and replace them with some form of controlled isolation.  This had to achieve both the isolation of the vibrations from the speaker to the floor AND maintain the position of the speaker so that imaging and dynamics are retained.

I eventually went for Track Audio speaker stands (www.trackaudio.co.uk).  Not cheap, nor silly money, and beautifully engineered.  The local Hi-Fi store got me a pair to audition.  Amazing.  All the floor issues were gone.  Imaging, outstanding.  Percussion now has no overhang.  The speakers and room now disappear and there is now just music.  From small simple productions to huge works, I am now listening to the music, not the room or the equipment – bliss.

Needless to say, the local Hi-Fi store only got the audition stands back when they delivered my own pair  :D

Equipment:
     TAD D1000 Cd/SACD/DAC
     Bryston BDP-2
     Bryston BP26
     Bryston 4BSST²
     PMC PB1 signature
     Analysis-Plus cables
     Track Audio speaker stands
     GiK Acoustics room treatment


DaveC113

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #9 on: 3 Sep 2014, 02:27 am »
David, I agree and good post!   The conventional wisdom regarding spikes is bass ackward imo, and isolation/de-coupling is the way to go. The isol8r stands I linked to above are exceptionally effective and very cheap, and Herbie's Audio Lab makes products that don't take up much vertical space and could be used with existing stands or in place of spikes. The stands you have look like a little like stillpoints, with those guys you could spend as much as a nice used car just on isolation! I have been surprised how much of an improvement can be made isolating components too.


werd

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #10 on: 3 Sep 2014, 02:55 am »
Its reliant on what the floor is and your speakers. Spikes are desirable for concrete, basements and any flloor that is rigid and basically won't shift under weight. If i had a suspended floor i would not use spikes but speakers platforms as you had done. If i couldn't get them to work i would buy new speakers. Knowing that those speakers are not suited for suspended floors.

The whole idea about spiking is to reduce the energy into the floor. Not to fix room acoustics but to relieve the speaker cabinet sound signature from the soundstage. Iows you hear less cabinet.

What you've done (and i applaud your fortitude) is you found the best way to seat your speakers. Even if it meant pouring concrete.

DaveC113

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #11 on: 3 Sep 2014, 03:17 am »
werd, spiking is meant to transmit vibrational energy into the floor as efficiently and quickly as possible, relying on the theory that your floor is immoveable and that vibration will just somehow "drain" into the earth. Hence, concrete is perfect to spike to, and flexible floors are not. There is some truth to this theory but it is too simple and doesn't account for other factors. So, spiking is not meant to reduce energy transmitted into the floor, quite the opposite... the stands David and I are referring to are isolation platforms that reduce energy transmission into the floor... instead, much of this energy is absorbed by the material the stand is made of. The absorption, or attenuation of the vibrational energy is dependent on frequency, and is less effective at lower frequencies, but is still very significant. There's a chart on Herbie's Audio Labs site where attenuation ranges from ~14-45 dB from 20Hz on up. That's very significant dissipation of vibrational energy that is now not reaching the floor. Also, floors can vibrate too, and isolation will reduce vibration from the floor into a component or speaker. As David pointed out, even concrete can vibrate and cause issues, which is why I say the spiking theory is incomplete, and ends up coming to a mistaken conclusion as a result.

werd

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #12 on: 3 Sep 2014, 04:03 am »
.

werd

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #13 on: 3 Sep 2014, 04:28 am »
How ever you want to look at it. Whether you mass load on spikes or using any type of isolation or shelving to anchor your speakers. What is altered is how the speaker cabinet resonates. This is audible.  Spikes reduce friction. Friction adds speaker cabinet noise. Stands reduce cabinet friction. So does hanging monitors.

Its all about speaker cabinet noise.

The floor construction helps guide your speaker choices. Also how you will control the cabinet to not resonate, Which in turn controls amplifiied cabinet distortion into the room. 

One thing ive learned , there is not 1 solution that solves all problems for different scenarios in audio. Including speaker coupling or decoupling on the floor.

So you may have a speaker that sounds best on concrete sitting on spikes. Or even on a speaker platform on concrete.  Or on Herbies Super love bug feet... Its all good.

werd

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #14 on: 3 Sep 2014, 05:02 am »
According to Dave's link he is using spikes on concrete.

DaveC113

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #15 on: 3 Sep 2014, 07:10 am »
The Track Audio stands end in spikes but have a damper built into the feet:


Isolation Feet

Track Audio isolation feet feature a unique design based around an ingenious viscous damping system. Undesirable vibrations that would normally diminish the performance of you hi-fi are absorbed and converted into heat, leaving you free to hear from your loudspeakers only what the speaker designer intended.

The result: an instant upgrade to your loudspeakers. Fat and muddy bass becomes clean and tuneful. Harsh midrange is now clear and sweet. Stereo soundstaging snaps into holographic focus, and adjacent rooms are less affected by sound leaking through the building.


So those stands are isolating the speaker from the floor where spikes would be coupling. The difference is whether you have a flexible material that attenuates vibration between the speaker and the floor. From what I've seen, it's always better to have an isolation-type connection to the floor rather than direct-coupling, although the direct coupling is certainly better than having the speaker just sit on the floor. The spikes actually greatly increase friction as they concentrate the weight of the speaker over a much smaller area which firmly positions the speaker. I think every loudspeaker would perform better on the Track audio isolation feet or another type of isolation device like the isol8r I linked to or one of Herbies feet. The whole intention is to keep the speaker from resonating the floor, and that requires some sort of deformable, elastic material that acts as a shock absorber and converts the vibration into heat.

werd

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #16 on: 3 Sep 2014, 08:07 am »
The Track Audio stands end in spikes but have a damper built into the feet:


Isolation Feet

Track Audio isolation feet feature a unique design based around an ingenious viscous damping system. Undesirable vibrations that would normally diminish the performance of you hi-fi are absorbed and converted into heat, leaving you free to hear from your loudspeakers only what the speaker designer intended.

The result: an instant upgrade to your loudspeakers. Fat and muddy bass becomes clean and tuneful. Harsh midrange is now clear and sweet. Stereo soundstaging snaps into holographic focus, and adjacent rooms are less affected by sound leaking through the building.


So those stands are isolating the speaker from the floor where spikes would be coupling. The difference is whether you have a flexible material that attenuates vibration between the speaker and the floor. From what I've seen, it's always better to have an isolation-type connection to the floor rather than direct-coupling, although the direct coupling is certainly better than having the speaker just sit on the floor. The spikes actually greatly increase friction as they concentrate the weight of the speaker over a much smaller area which firmly positions the speaker. I think every loudspeaker would perform better on the Track audio isolation feet or another type of isolation device like the isol8r I linked to or one of Herbies feet. The whole intention is to keep the speaker from resonating the floor, and that requires some sort of deformable, elastic material that acts as a shock absorber and converts the vibration into heat.

Lol Its a spike system. Thats all it is.

DaveC113

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Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #17 on: 3 Sep 2014, 03:12 pm »
But.... what about their "ingenious viscous damping system"?  :green:   I think that is the key to their ability to keep the speakers from driving the floor...

I'll let David respond about his stands further if he wants to. I do think you need spikes or some other way to stabilize the speaker, but that a damping device to absorb vibration is also essential for best results.

milford3


werd

Re: Should I use spikes on my loudspeakers?
« Reply #19 on: 3 Sep 2014, 04:08 pm »
But.... what about their "ingenious viscous damping system"?  :green:   I think that is the key to their ability to keep the speakers from driving the floor...

I'll let David respond about his stands further if he wants to. I do think you need spikes or some other way to stabilize the speaker, but that a damping device to absorb vibration is also essential for best results.

You can spend thousands of dollars on speakers and have the whole thing screwed up over wrong footing sitting on hard surfaces. Much of the vibration control on spike systems are in their footing materials.

I'm sure those stands and footings sound great