AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: neobop on 26 Mar 2013, 09:48 pm

Title: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 26 Mar 2013, 09:48 pm
Kudos for Harry!!

"A large group of audiophiles from the NYC area were invited to the VPI offices on Saturday for a fun day of music, learning, food and conversation. Very nice of them.

Harry Weisfeld was excited to introduce two new products still in prototype form: the first is high-end direct drive turntable that is going to be their top product - he was particularly proud of the motor, designed for this purpose and apparently sourced from a military equipment manufacturer. In its current prototype form the turntable resembles a Classic 3. Harry was very enthusiastic about the absolute speed control that was better than any belt drive table. His words.

The second is a new composite arm-wand manufactured on-site using a $350,000 object printer. It is made of hundreds/thousands of layers of laser cured material and resembles their current arm-wands except for the black material and the complex shape changes made to further reduce vibration transmission. I listened to the combination of the new table and arm-wand for about an hour and was thrilled by the relaxing musicality produced.

I understand that these new products will be at shows soon - still in prototype form.

Surprisingly, there was a large display of classic amplifiers, reel-to-reel tape machines, turntables, tonearms and more. One that caught my eye was a mint direct drive JVC TT-101 turntable (very much like mine). It was the target/inspiration for the new table - I would love to compare the two, but that wasn't possible. Maybe at my house some day.

It was great to see that VPI is so committed to moving the state of the art forward using both the latest technologies and thinking and the best of the past."

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1364252195&&&/VPI-is-Introducing-a-high-end-Direct-Dri
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: orthobiz on 26 Mar 2013, 09:54 pm
I was at an orthopaedic meeting this past week and saw the stuff the object printer can make regarding orthopaedic implants. It is amazing, complex honeycombed objects that would be virtually impossible to make any other way (at least to my eye...I'm not an engineer!).

I was just thinking that it would be great for making a tonearm!

Paul
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: TONEPUB on 26 Mar 2013, 09:57 pm
Can't wait to get one in for review...
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: wushuliu on 26 Mar 2013, 10:47 pm
Be interesting to see if that direct drive motor works its way down into cheaper models...
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: topround on 26 Mar 2013, 11:12 pm
I was at that meeting.

New 3d printed tonearm made out of some plastic was a HUGE improvement over his metal arms, every aspect of audio reproduction was improved by a very large degree.

New DD turntable was very nice. I am not a fan of DD, even though I have a Technics in my stable of TT's but this DD was very musical. Motor is used in military applications and is expensive.

Also new Ceramic platter coming as well.

Lots of new goodies from VPI coming down the pike as they say, all audio improvements not just rehashes of old technology, with shiny black plinths.
VPI has alot to look foward to, and all VPI owners that use VPI arms are going to want to buy that plastic arm :thumb:
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: orthobiz on 27 Mar 2013, 01:14 am
There's a picture of the arm at analog planet dot com.

Paul
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobM on 27 Mar 2013, 02:22 pm
I was there also and heard the arm demo, using the same cartridge (Grado Gold) on the same table - just swapped out the arm wands with no other changes. The improvements with the new arm were not subtle. Much better separation and soundstaging and clarity, with an immediately noticeable increase in dynamics. Hard to believe that changing the arm wand could make that much of an improvement. IMO, the JMW arm was always the weak spot in their products, but no longer. This is new arm a major upgrade.

Something else that was on that table but not necessarily mentioned is a new ceramic coated platter, basically the Classic platter with a ceramic coating.

As for the direct drive motor, Harry said it was uber expensive at his own cost because it is military spec. So even when it does become available on their new "premier" product it is going to push the cost into some rarefied air.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Wayner on 27 Mar 2013, 03:07 pm
First rim drive, now direct drive. I wonder what the true anti-direct drive folks will think of this outcome.

Harry, himself has made anti-direct drive comments in the past. Perhaps this one has some true flywheel effects that has impressed him.

Personally, I'm a fan boy of both, and it sounds right that VPI should venture into this venue. At least it makes some sense to me. Hopefully, the new machine technology will filter down to a more affordable model for the common masses. The few DD tables out there are (IMO) below average performers.

Wayner
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: WGH on 27 Mar 2013, 03:07 pm
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/vpi-debuts-new-3d-printer-one-piece-jmw-memorial-tonearm-and-new-direct-drive-turntable-moto (http://www.analogplanet.com/content/vpi-debuts-new-3d-printer-one-piece-jmw-memorial-tonearm-and-new-direct-drive-turntable-moto)

(http://www.analogplanet.com/images/imagecache/600_wide/VPI.jpg)
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: TheChairGuy on 27 Mar 2013, 06:04 pm
Cool news.....I'd buy a new (2nd) armwand if it's priced for non-billionaires, for certain :thumb:

Dunno' if I'd care for direct drive.....I'm profoundly happy enough with the way music sounds on the Classic1 now (using piano pieces).  Probably just going to the SDS would be a more cost effective route to get a step higher in playback. 

Much depends on your personal tolerance level and how good your system is.  Mine feels good enough to have a smile purse my lips every time (only when playing vinyl for whatever reason)

Anyhow, love the choices for the future VPI is giving us. 

Pre-VPI, Harry re-plinthed old JVC direct drive turntables so he's pretty aware of the typical positives and pitfalls of them so I'm sure this milspec motor is a doozy  8)

John
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 27 Mar 2013, 09:14 pm
This is destined to be the new TOTL, or so it's said.  Considering that an HR-X w/12.7 is something like $13K....gulp. This is gonna be a big chunk o' change. Lets see, should I get a new compact car, or that shiny new VPI?
neo
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: topround on 27 Mar 2013, 10:04 pm
I think the anti DD guys are right, DD really doesn't sound that great, but this is not the same DD as what most of us have based our opinions on, this one sounds good and is very different to what is in a Technics.
So it is a DD in name, but it has very little relation sonically to the other DD's.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 27 Mar 2013, 10:56 pm
I think the anti DD guys are right, DD really doesn't sound that great, but this is not the same DD as what most of us have based our opinions on, this one sounds good and is very different to what is in a Technics.
So it is a DD in name, but it has very little relation sonically to the other DD's.

Now you've done it, thems fightin words.  Better git in your bunker, I'm preparing to launch.
Here's some preliminary info for you.  You might want to withdraw those remarks before it's too late.
http://www.oocities.org/de/bc1a69/museum_eng.html
neo
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: WireNut on 27 Mar 2013, 11:08 pm
Holy S___t. Topround, Wayner, Neobop, TheChairguy here all at once. I got's to get my questions in order.  :bowdown:

Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: orthobiz on 28 Mar 2013, 01:37 am
Did anybody mention the platter mat? I'm running a Classic platter bare. Might as well take a quick informal poll about who is using a VPI with a mat and who isn't.

Paul
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: catastrofe on 28 Mar 2013, 02:05 am
I think the anti DD guys are right, DD really doesn't sound that great, but this is not the same DD as what most of us have based our opinions on, this one sounds good and is very different to what is in a Technics.
So it is a DD in name, but it has very little relation sonically to the other DD's.

What an ignorant comment. . .
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Sonny on 28 Mar 2013, 03:17 am
What an ignorant comment. . .

I don't know how this comment makes topround "ignorant", isn't he stating his opinion on DD?
Is he or is he not entitled to his opinion, even if it does not conform with others?
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: catastrofe on 28 Mar 2013, 03:57 am
I don't know how this comment makes topround "ignorant", isn't he stating his opinion on DD?
Is he or is he not entitled to his opinion, even if it does not conform with others?

If he was stating his opinion, he shoud have prefaced it with "....in my opinion", or "....I prefer", or something similar.  The way this is phrased, it's an unequivocal statement, which is patently false.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: jawaka on 28 Mar 2013, 07:32 am
He started with .....I think!....

read again!
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: topround on 28 Mar 2013, 10:29 am
Just stating my opinion.
I happen to own a DD turntable and these are my sonic views on the drive.

I also own belt drives.

I have learned to be honest about what you own. I happen to not really like my DD drive TT and I own it.
And this is not about "what you like" or "personal preferences" DD has its detractors for real reasons, so don't be offended.
Harry at VPI may have come across a motor that will advance DD to a great length, an advance that was needed.

Mike
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: decal on 28 Mar 2013, 11:46 am
He started with .....I think!....

read again!

Exactly. An apology to topround is in order here catastrofe.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: catastrofe on 28 Mar 2013, 12:09 pm
Exactly. An apology to topround is in order here catastrofe.

No apology forthcoming. . .

The "I think" is in support of the first part of the sentence. . ."I think the anti DD guys are right".  Mike then states that DD really doesn't sound that great.  He thinks the anti-dd guys are right, dd doesn't great.

If dd not sounding great is Mike's opinion, his statement should have been:  "I think the anti DD guys are right, I don't think/believe/feel (etc.) DD sounds that great. . ."

The way this is worded, it's an outright statement.  You may think this is nit-picky, but wars have been fought over lesser issues.

Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: rollo on 28 Mar 2013, 02:22 pm
I was there as well as our club the Audiosyndrome was the host club. The difference in arms was staggering. The arm is made from epoxy not plastic with a Grado gold cart was put against the JM memorial arm.  The epoxy is applied at 1/1000 of an inch at a time. It takes 27 hours to build the arm. 
     Dynamics, tighter bass and a deeper, wider sound stage as well.  Focus presence and transparency was there in spades. I can only imagine what a Lyra Atlas would do with that arm, oh my !   The motor used is a special brushless affair used in submarines. Actual cost of motor alone is $4000 according to Harry W.
     Harry W. explained that he was not a fan of DD until he came across this motor used by the Navy. Dead quite, extremely accurate in speed with mass.
     A wonderful day had by all, thanks Harry and Matt.


charles
     
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Vapor Audio on 28 Mar 2013, 02:57 pm
The arm is made from epoxy not plastic with a Grado gold cart was put against the JM memorial arm.  The epoxy is applied at 1/1000 of an inch at a time. It takes 27 hours to build the arm. 

Epoxy = acrylic = plastic.  So epoxy is just a thermoset plastic.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: vortrex on 28 Mar 2013, 02:59 pm
$4k for a turntable motor?  sounds like some military pricing there.

"in the mid-1980s uncovering Pentagon waste and fraud by publishing reports, provided by whistleblowers, exposing $640 toilet seats, $7,600 coffee makers, $436 hammers and other overpriced spare parts used by the military."

Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: rollo on 28 Mar 2013, 03:08 pm
Epoxy = acrylic = plastic.  So epoxy is just a thermoset plastic.

   Thank you for the correction. Never to old to learn  :thumb:

charles
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 28 Mar 2013, 03:19 pm
Maybe we should all lighten up a little with the DD vs belt comments.  I was trying to be comical with the threat of a launch, really. I'll save my W80 thermonuclear warheads for a much rainier day.  If you look at the big picture we're all on the same side (sort of), so this is friendly fire?  On the other hand, if provoked...  I for one, really don't care what Harry said about DD.  Didn't he say his rim drive was better than his belt?  He's just another guy making tables and I'm not a fanboy.

I read the article by Fremer, linked to on page 1.  There was an interesting comment after the article. Seems that kids are buying records like crazy and are a big part of increased record sales.  Sales have been increasing at a rate of 30%/yr, for the past 5 yrs.  That's amazing.  Funny thing is, according to the comment, most of these kids could care less about optimizing their record players, they just like records.

What does that say about fanatics like us?  I guess not much, but I'm glad they're buying records.
neo



Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: catastrofe on 28 Mar 2013, 03:21 pm
It's all good. . .it's the music that matters anyway!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: quietglow on 28 Mar 2013, 03:36 pm


I read the article by Fremer, linked to on page 1.  There was an interesting comment after the article. Seems that kids are buying records like crazy and are a big part of increased record sales.  Sales have been increasing at a rate of 30%/yr, for the past 5 yrs.  That's amazing.  Funny thing is, according to the comment, most of these kids could care less about optimizing their record players, they just like records.


I know this may not be a popular opinion, but I think this trend is vastly more important than the focus (as seen at Axpona) on nurturing the audiophile next generation. The non-audiophile record buyer set is always going to be much larger than the audiophile set, and if we want records to listen to on our turntables, seeing any record buying contingent swell in numbers is fantastic news. Before the "demise" of film, the only people left shooting it were professionals and people afraid of digital. That market wasn't big enough to sustain production. We do not want that in record land, and the people buying records from Urban Outfitters and listening to them on whatever turntable they find at a yard sale are our best hope for continued new releases.

Sorry for thread cr*pping, but Neo's post inspired a hearty hear! hear! from me: we are all, indeed, on the same side and it's not even the one driving the vinyl industry.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Letitroll98 on 28 Mar 2013, 03:40 pm
I think it goes to the old argument that direct drive can be every bit as musical as belt drive, it just costs a lot more to get it there.  We've had very nice sounding DD tables around for a long time, they're just very expensive, some models by Grand Prix Audio and Brinkman come to mind, I'm sure there's more.  If you're designing for the masses, belt drive is the accepted way to go.  The real breakthrough would be a reasonably priced DD motor that is completely cog-less.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobRex on 28 Mar 2013, 05:19 pm
I think it goes to the old argument that direct drive can be every bit as musical as belt drive, it just costs a lot more to get it there.  We've had very nice sounding DD tables around for a long time, they're just very expensive, some models by Grand Prix Audio and Brinkman come to mind, I'm sure there's more.  If you're designing for the masses, belt drive is the accepted way to go.  The real breakthrough would be a reasonably priced DD motor that is completely cog-less.
If you take a look at the DD site that neo posted yesterday, all of the tables honored are the top line, ultra expensive (for the times) tables.  No mention of the cheaper Denons, nor the Kenwoods, JVCs, Sonys, hell, even Technics doesn't get a mention below the SP20. 

So apparently even a site dedicated to the technology doesn't recognize the cheap stuff.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: orthobiz on 28 Mar 2013, 05:20 pm
Anybody notice a MAT on the PLATTER?

Paul
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobRex on 28 Mar 2013, 05:27 pm
Anybody notice a MAT on the PLATTER?

Paul

And did you notice the platter appears to be the ceramic coated platter?  (wrong color for Al)
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: J-Pak on 28 Mar 2013, 05:43 pm
Were there any comparisons with a VPI belt drive and the new DD?

The Wave Kinetics turntable (DD) is really good.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: TheChairGuy on 28 Mar 2013, 06:43 pm
Mike / topround,

If your opinion on DD centers around the Technics Sl-1200; I could never get that deck to sound good, either.

But my experience with 4 very inexpensive DD's from JVC (once filling the empty guts with modeling clay) was excellent.

In fact I wasn't sure a belt drive at anything below maybe USD$3000 could best a circa-1980 DD from JVC that cost $200 back then...until the VPI Classic1. Tho my memory of the Townshend Rock back in 1988 or so was good too...tho I tend to discount this memory as it was before the time of DAD/CD and the perfect speed it exhibits.

The advent of digital technologies really made the comparison with the analog turntable important insofar as speed control went.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 28 Mar 2013, 06:55 pm
Were there any comparisons with a VPI belt drive and the new DD?

The Wave Kinetics turntable (DD) is really good.

Apparently not.  From the Agon thread - link on first post:

"Surprisingly, there was a large display of classic amplifiers, reel-to-reel tape machines, turntables, tonearms and more. One that caught my eye was a mint direct drive JVC TT-101 turntable (very much like mine). It was the target/inspiration for the new table - I would love to compare the two, but that wasn't possible. Maybe at my house some day."

The JVC 100 or 101 is one of those super-tables in the DD Museum.  It will be interesting to see what happens with this DD VPI and its $4K motor.  It seems like that's VPI cost, not retail?  I wouldn't put it past Harry to come up with another winner like the Classic.  If I had any money I'd put it on this being a contender for around $20K w/o arm.  I'll have to check and see if VPI Industries is a public corp.

As of now I have $10 on Harrys Dreamsicle to win in the 5th at Belmont. Place your bets now before the odds change.
neo

Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: ltr317 on 29 Mar 2013, 02:30 am
Apparently not.  From the Agon thread - link on first post:

"Surprisingly, there was a large display of classic amplifiers, reel-to-reel tape machines, turntables, tonearms and more. One that caught my eye was a mint direct drive JVC TT-101 turntable (very much like mine). It was the target/inspiration for the new table - I would love to compare the two, but that wasn't possible. Maybe at my house some day."

The JVC 100 or 101 is one of those super-tables in the DD Museum.  It will be interesting to see what happens with this DD VPI and its $4K motor.  It seems like that's VPI cost, not retail?  I wouldn't put it past Harry to come up with another winner like the Classic.  If I had any money I'd put it on this being a contender for around $20K w/o arm.  I'll have to check and see if VPI Industries is a public corp.

As of now I have $10 on Harrys Dreamsicle to win in the 5th at Belmont. Place your bets now before the odds change.
neo

Yes, the 4k is wholesale cost. 
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: ltr317 on 29 Mar 2013, 02:32 am
Were there any comparisons with a VPI belt drive and the new DD?

The Wave Kinetics turntable (DD) is really good.

Yes, the DD had the belt drive down for the count.  I just submitted the report of the meeting to The Stereo Times, and it should be online in a few days.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 29 Mar 2013, 12:15 pm
I think it goes to the old argument that direct drive can be every bit as musical as belt drive, it just costs a lot more to get it there.  We've had very nice sounding DD tables around for a long time, they're just very expensive, some models by Grand Prix Audio and Brinkman come to mind, I'm sure there's more.  If you're designing for the masses, belt drive is the accepted way to go.  The real breakthrough would be a reasonably priced DD motor that is completely cog-less.

This perception (above) and Toprounds opinion are understandable, but completely wrong IMO.  If you look at tables from the heyday of vinyl, DD technology was always superior to belt.  Why would companies like JVC, Denon, Kenwood, Sony, Micro Seiki, Nakamichi,  Yamaha, Technics, Sansui, Pioneer (Exclusive), Onkyo, Marantz, Luxman have DD tables as their TOTL statement pieces, because they were inferior?  It wasn't just the top models that were superior, all these companies also made belt drives at one time or another and when you go down the line at compare performance vs price, DD wins.
There might be misc exceptions to this rule,  but they are exceptions and rule stands.

The Japanese made brushless and slotless motors a long time ago.  There's one in my Kenwood.  I'm not saying  it's as good as this $4K submarine motor, I'm just sayin. 
The Goldmund Reference was belt drive because it had a 35 lb platter.  They didn't have this US submarine motor and it was impractical to DD a platter that heavy.  Goldmund went to great lengths to correct the speed on the Reference, with computerized servo technology.  It even has a digital tachometer mounted on the plinth.  Goldmund's "budget" tables, the Studio, Studietto, and ST-4, were DD.  There was no belt drive at that time that could successfully compete with them.  Back then, most of the high end tables were less expensive, like Michell, Oracle, Linn etc.  Sota had a couple of vacuum tables that were pricey, but compaired to a Goldmund they were wow and flutter machines.  I need a $1K speed correction box to even listen to these ponderous sounding machines. 

Many idler/rim drive fanciers consider that different from DD.  I don't think I need to elaborate about their feelings on this.  The reality is, that start up companies are often under financed, but still have to sell their product to survive.  The perception that belt drive is superior, was a PR move to accomplish that.  Now, the technology applied to belt drive has improved to the point where it's pretty darn good and competitive, depending on specifics.  In the mid price brackets, belt drive wins by default.  If there's nothing to compare it to, they win. 

I guess I'll have to get ready for a fight, only I can't seem to find those thermonuclear warheads.  That's a hell of a thing to misplace isn't it?   Oh well, just have to use conventional arms.  One Graham Phantom for the MCs, no make that an ET-2, wait a minute a Triplaner should do the trick, or a Terminator might be excellante, how about a good old SME V or a Zeta to really get retro?   Maybe we should wait for this new plastic VPI arm.  I hear it's so good you should wear a diaper to audition it.
neo
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Syrah on 29 Mar 2013, 02:19 pm
Slightly off topic, but Teres went through an evolution of rubber belt, then non-flexible nylon belt, then rim drive, then DD.  But as with VPI, it seems that well implemented DD brought it into mildly stratospheric price territory:

http://www.teresaudio.com/certus.html

You do have to wonder whether, if you took the price difference between a Classic (for example) and a new $10 - $20k table and spent it on cartridge, phono stage, etc., you might or might not be better off.

This reminds me of when I was 14 years old, saved my gardening and babysitting money and bought my very first stereo.  Competing theories of where to put your money, table, amp, speakers?  I tended to agree with the table and speaker advocates.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: S Clark on 29 Mar 2013, 03:50 pm
Well, if this is VPI's TOTL table, is isn't likely to impact many folks here.  For those fortunate enough to have a hundred grand to put into their system, maybe a $15-20K TT makes sense.  Too rarified air for me, so I'll stick with my ancient SP-10 MKII- even though it is only a DD.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: tnewell on 29 Mar 2013, 05:10 pm
I am very happy with my Super Scoutmaster Rim Drive, but that new Armwand has me excited.

Did they give any hint of the price on that Armwand or whether they would be offering for JMW 9?

Tom
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Syrah on 29 Mar 2013, 10:17 pm
Me too.  A platter and arm upgrade option could be fun for my Classic, if the price/performance is worth it.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: topround on 29 Mar 2013, 10:53 pm
Don't know how much of an improvement the ceramic platter is over the standard platter, but the new arm is a  no brainer
HUGE improvement, you could spend 10K on a Atlas cartridge and not get this improvement. Like putting a Ferrari engine in a Chevy Malibu, it still wont win the race.
If you put a Triplanar or Graham arm on a VPI you would get a big improvement over the standard arm, but this new palstic arm closes the gap alot. Is this new arm better than a Graham or triplanar or (insert your favorite arm here_______) that is a good question? I am sure it will be borne out with reviews and users.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 2 Apr 2013, 07:11 pm
Looks like Harry is doing a little promo work over at Asylum.  The new table Vanquish will be around $25K.  I'm not sure but I think that includes a 3D arm.

IMO, he does more harm than good with his sophomoric posts.  VPI would be better off if he kept off the forums.  He seems to have a knack for overstatement and it's not exactly dignified advertising.  Anyway, apparently the arms will be available as replacements for VPI arms, and probably available separately.

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1045745

neo
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobM on 2 Apr 2013, 08:24 pm
Don't know how much of an improvement the ceramic platter is over the standard platter,

Well I will let you know my subjective impressions of the new ceramic platter over the old black MKIII platter in a little while. Being delivered today. Obviously I won;t be able to do a direct A-B, but I know you will all trust my ears and sonic memory.  :lol:
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: orthobiz on 2 Apr 2013, 08:59 pm
Does the 3D arm have a metal bearing cup inserted?

Paul
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: neobop on 3 Apr 2013, 12:48 am
Does the 3D arm have a metal bearing cup inserted?

Paul

"It will drop on any Tonearm we have ever made with a possible change of bearing point needed on older models. It will be available in 9, 10 and 12 inch lengths."

This package is a lot of money, but it's all relative.  Look at the price of some other high end tables and arms, this looks like a bargain.  We were just mentioning arms $6K and up.  The arm will be available separately on existing bearing assemblies or retrofit on a Classic arm or 12.7 etc.  At least that's the impression I get.
I suspect Harry and VPI have another winner in both arm and table.

I don't know anything about VPI expansion plans or the limits in high end record player sales.  These days, you never know about the economy and international finance.  The great recession of '08 was felt worldwide.  Here's hoping we're not in for round 2, and VPI becomes the preeminent mfg, not just another high end record player company.  Look at the recent track record, first the Classic, then Traveller and now Vanquish and the 3D arm.  Way to go Harry. 
neo
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: TheChairGuy on 3 Apr 2013, 03:01 am
Well I will let you know my subjective impressions of the new ceramic platter over the old black MKIII platter in a little while. Being delivered today. Obviously I won;t be able to do a direct A-B, but I know you will all trust my ears and sonic memory.  :lol:

We expect a full report, Bob  :rules:

If I may ask....what's the list price for those of us that may want to upgrade? (tho, of the two,  the 3D arm more to my liking as a next upgrade to my Classic)
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobM on 3 Apr 2013, 01:05 pm
The list on the platter will be $900, I was told.

So I installed it last night and ran into a bit of a problem. The threading on the bearing ended too short for me to thread it onto my plinth, so off to Ace Hardware to buy a box of big (need a 1" hole in the middle) metal washers to fill the gap. Slid those on the bottom of the bearing and threaded the nut to hold it tight. This is a good thing - added mass to the bottom of the bearing, even though it is an inverted bearing now. Put the platter on, adjusted the VTA up an inch (yes, I measured and marked the tonearm angle on the old platter and reset it on the new one to be sure I got things at least close), and let it spin.

Nope, my silk thread is too short to fit the bigger platter, so off to tie another string to fit, then some obvious speed variation, so out comes the digital speed meter and a little adjustment to my Mark Kelly speed controller. OK 33.4 is good. Nope, a little VTA adjustment still needed. Ahhh, much better.

So, just a side of Basie to test this out. No in your face obvious changes, but after a side I definitely hear more speed stability, as you would expect from a heavier platter. Yes, there's also more detail, or perhaps less background noise so things seem clearer. Out comes a female vocal album. Yeah, quieter and more speed stability overall, leading to more spaciousness. An improvement of exactly the kind you would expect.

But I have no idea how this would improve on the original aluminum platter, since it's effectively the same but with a ceramic coating to help dampen things. One thing I can say is that I tried it with the one piece delrin clamp and had some dishing up of the record edge, so on went the washer and clamp but it still dished, so off came both and the record sits flat and played fine indeed. Have other Classic owners found the clamp helpful or not? With or without the washer? Harry was playing records without either at VPI, just on the platter without a mat.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: rollo on 3 Apr 2013, 01:53 pm
The future looks good for VPI. Coming off their best year yet. Matt will be more involved this year. Great products and best of all great people and company.
     Bob you are correct no clamp used during demo. Wonder why. The SDS sped controller is a must audition as well. It would be interesting to compare to yours. Conditions the power and regulates speed.


charles
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobM on 3 Apr 2013, 03:59 pm
Mine does the same, but also uses 12v DC as initial power, then produces a 1/4 sine wave in the digital domain and replicates it 3 more times and inverts appropriately to make a complete sine wave, then converts back to AC where you can also adjust for phase and amplifies it to the correct AC voltage. The SDS does not adjust for AC phase, instead using the phase inversion cap in the motor to approximate phase.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: SteveRB on 3 Apr 2013, 05:00 pm
Classic owners found the clamp helpful or not? With or without the washer? Harry was playing records without either at VPI, just on the platter without a mat.

I have stopped using the washer all together. It requires way to much torque to get the record flat on the platter. I have even cracked one record with it. Some one recently recommended finding a large rubber washer to use instead... I may try that. I use the screw on clamp all the time, just a little snug. But results have varied. I does very little to flatten records. but if it's too tight, it certainly will dish up the outside edge.

All hat being said, I was thinking of trying out the cork mat for a while.

One day I will spring for a steel clamp and ring clamp.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Sonny on 3 Apr 2013, 06:00 pm
The list on the platter will be $900, I was told.

So I installed it last night and ran into a bit of a problem. The threading on the bearing ended too short for me to thread it onto my plinth, so off to Ace Hardware to buy a box of big (need a 1" hole in the

post a pic please Bob of the new platter bearing and platter.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobM on 3 Apr 2013, 06:33 pm
Just picture the regular Classic platter and bearing, but with a slightly duller silver finish on the platter instead of polished aluminum.

Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Sonny on 3 Apr 2013, 06:35 pm
Just picture the regular Classic platter and bearing, but with a slightly duller silver finish on the platter instead of polished aluminum.

So, you're telling me that we can upgrade from the current bearing to the ceramic bearing?  And this is how much?
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobM on 3 Apr 2013, 07:40 pm
Sorry, I think you misunderstood. It's a new ceramic platter. Same bearing as the classic - no change.

Although looking at the ball in the inverted bearing I think it looks easy enough to remove (maybe with a strong magnet) and replace with a precision ground ceramic ball. I bet that would be a definite improvement. Anyone know the exact dimension of that metal ball bearing?
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: Sonny on 3 Apr 2013, 08:49 pm
Sorry, I think you misunderstood. It's a new ceramic platter. Same bearing as the classic - no change.

Although looking at the ball in the inverted bearing I think it looks easy enough to remove (maybe with a strong magnet) and replace with a precision ground ceramic ball. I bet that would be a definite improvement. Anyone know the exact dimension of that metal ball bearing?

Ah, so, the platter is ceramic, that's it...how much does it weigh and it is all ceramic or it's just a ceramic coat?
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: S Clark on 3 Apr 2013, 08:55 pm
So, you're telling me that we can upgrade from the current bearing to the ceramic bearing?  And this is how much?
Ceramic bearings are cheap.  I picked up a couple direct from China for an old radio station broadcast TT for less than $20 shipping included. All metric sizes are availble and most English.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: ptmconsulting on 3 Apr 2013, 10:32 pm
Ah, so, the platter is ceramic, that's it...how much does it weigh and it is all ceramic or it's just a ceramic coat?

Ceramic coating on the Classic aluminum platter. Basically as a vibration and resonance reducer, per Harry. He said something about using a similar process as the arm to coat it, but didn't elaborate (and personally I don't think that makes sense since it's ceramic coated and not "plastic" coated).
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Apr 2013, 12:32 am
Mine does the same, but also uses 12v DC as initial power, then produces a 1/4 sine wave in the digital domain and replicates it 3 more times and inverts appropriately to make a complete sine wave, then converts back to AC where you can also adjust for phase and amplifies it to the correct AC voltage. The SDS does not adjust for AC phase, instead using the phase inversion cap in the motor to approximate phase.

Bob, what are you using? Upgraded motor (prob DC) or motor controller is next on my to-do list.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: BobM on 4 Apr 2013, 01:48 pm
It's a controller designed by Mark Kelly. There were only a few of us who built them. They were a pretty complex and aggressive DIY project. Mark didn't want to support the myriad of questions that came out of the build - his build notes and board layout and adjustment descriptions were not precise enough on their own and the extra time he needed to spend supporting it was excessive.

However the end result, once working properly and adjusted correctly is awesome. A motor spinning in your hand outside of the casing is effectively vibrationless; truly smooth and almost feels like it isn't even turned on.
Title: Re: Coming: New Top of the Line VPI - - Direct Drive Table
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Apr 2013, 03:00 pm
You lucky duck. I'd love to get ahold of one of them.