[joegator81]

I've requested advice on where to upgrade my system before but have decided the biggest improvement would be in improving either my speakers or turntable or both.

Current system is:

LSA 1 Statement monitors (for now, thinking about some Philharmonic BMR's due to large room)

Rhythmik E15HP subs x 2

Clearaudio Concept w/ Concept MC cart

NuPrime DAC10 as preamp and DAC

Eastern Electric Minimax phono pre w/ NOS tubes

Emerald Physics 100.2SE power amp

Clearday Double Shotgun speaker cables

Audio Art IC3SE interconnects




The plan is to keep the Concept MC cart but sell the turntable. I really don't want to go above $3000 and would prefer to buy from a dealer whether it be online or brick and mortar. I'd prefer a deck w/ an arm as I've really only done plug and play solutions up to this point. Some current options would be:

Nottingham Space Deck 294 w/ Nottingham arm (recent production trade-in to dealer) - heard good things about the table but many comments about how the arm isn't as good. All the recommendations are for arms in the $2000 plus range. I can demo this at a dealer, so that's a big plus. However, not any recent reviews. The dealer also carries Michelle and Well-Tempered, would love to her the Gyrodec SE and the Amadeus GTA though both of these would be out of my price range new.

Pro-Ject RPM 10.1 or 10 Carbon (demo or pre-owned) - seem to come up frequently at online retailers. Seem to go in the $2000 range and reviews are very positive.

VPI Prime (demo or pre-owned) - the price hike bothered me but the demo prices are significantly lower and demo models seem commonly available. The reviews of this table are insanely positive across the board, not sure whether to take them with a grain of salt.

Gem Dandy Super12 Polytable - $3000 new by George Merrill. If I had the money I'd probably get a REAL and I've never seen the Super12 come up used. No official reviews of the Super12 version yet. The reviews of the standard polytable mention beautiful soundstaging and midrange but say that the low end is a little lacking which is a concern for me. I would hope that the Super12 would fix that.

Clearaudio Performance DC w/ Clarify or Satisfy arm - (used) This would be the most obvious choice as an upgrade from the Concept, better deck and better arm. Also, the used price is easier on the wallet. However, I read a reviewer that reviewed each one after the other and preferred the VPI Prime. Also wonder how much of an improvement I'd really get moving up one deck in the line. Floor vibrations are not a problem in my room, concrete floors so not concerned w/ that aspect of the tonearm. The cart should be a perfect fit as well.

Avid Diva II SP - Reviews seem to suggest that to get the most out of this deck you need a higher end arm. Also you don't get many offered used by dealers.


Ok, so that's my list. Please keep reco's to those tables on the list whether good or bad. Any opinions?

[Photon46]

You've opened up a can of worms with that request! The problems with asking opinions about turntables and all things analog is that they, more than other source components, are interdependent systems which depend on several things working supportively in harmony. Get one thing out of ideal balance and one's opinion of everything else in the chain gets skewed. I've bought so many pieces of equipment that others loved or were highly reviewed, only to find them underwhelming mediocrities in my system. With that caveat, I'd suggest you first look for a good demo or trade-in because merely doubling one's retail budget doesn't guarantee a meaningful upgrade. (Spoken from experience. ) Everyone has different opinions about what's ideal but I happen to be a big fan of one brand you don't mention: Acoustic Signature. Nice dealer demos show up regularly on Audiogon. Beautifully made, great sound to my ears, not cheap but a good value. Especially at used or demo prices. Plenty of great reviews of their products if that matters to you. Many of them come with either a Rega 303 arm or Rega armboard and that prides an easy upgrade path in the future for either Audiomods or Origin Live tonearms.

[bacobits1]

Why change the table? What don't you like about the sound? The system looks fine.
The Concept Table is fine too. I have a CA Emotion SE CMBearing, Satisfy carbon, AT33PTG II and it's truly excellent!!
If set up correctly, I mean really correctly it should sing and compete well with the others you mention. Get an Accutrac Protractor for that table /arm makes a huge difference.
You want a decent change go for a different MC Cart or Phono Pre. Yes, I have had the EE Minimax a few years ago. It's shy on any gain for MC cartridges and no settings. I don't care for Rega arms they need to be rewired first off.
 
You will get as many different recommendations as each individual poster.
I know we all get the bug!
 

[mick wolfe]

I agree. Reevaluate your turntable after you've replaced current speakers with a pair that better fit your room size. Been there, done that in both regards. (too small a speaker for a large room and vice versa)

[woodsyi]

If you are keeping the Concept MC and it really has a compliance of 9/9 µ/mN, you would need a heavy arm.  If you go with VPI prime that has a 3D arm, you would need to use heavy screws like the ones Soundsmith offers.   If you do some reading and connect with local guys who would help, you don't need to deal with a dealer.  That will open up a used market where you can really get good stuff for 3 to 4 K, e.g. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-turntable-w-sme-5-arm-2017-10-12-analog  But then, you would need to upgrade the cart and phono stage to do justice to the table/arm.   

In this hobby, you are only going to hear the best your worst equipment in the chain will allow.  So you have to kind of move in lockstep or you won't hear an upgrade.  I don't know enough about your system to know if you are going to hear any upgrade from the Concept system. 

[Bob Stark]

Joe G,
 
I've had both a VPI Classic original with JMW arm and an Avid Diva II w/ Origin Live Silver II arm.  I used a Shelter 501 MkII cartridge.  I liked both of them.  The VPI had a more incisive crisp sound--call it more lively.  The Diva II was slightly airier and more pleasant to listen to with less than excellent recordings.  Price of either with arm was similar--about $2100.  I bought the Classic new on sale at about $1800 and the Diva with OL arm was bought used for the $2100.  I liked the OL arm better as it doesn't wobble around due to its inherent design.  I got one of the Pete Riggle VTA bases to use with the OL arm.  It improved the sound slightly and made it real easy to remove the arm from the TT if needed.

I used these with VMPS RM40 which are very resolving and dynamic speakers.  The system is very resolving but with a tube preamp that softens the mids a little.

[joegator81]

Why I want to change TT's:

Well isn't always that you think there is something better out there? I really do like the Concept and have had it for probably 6-7 years now. It is musical with a wide soundstage. It does reveal enough to let you know whether you are listening to a good recording or a poor one. I can tell that the reissue of pink Floyd's The Wall is a little fatter and looser in the low end than the original press. Still, I think that an upgrade would give me even more detail and control (especially in the low end), refinement, and dynamics. I think the low end extension and absolute detail is the areas where the concept is known to fall behind pricier tables and arms.

I do feel like my system can handle a TT upgrade as is. The subs are very nice, the speakers have plenty of detail when kept at reasonable volumes considering the size of the room. I noticed a obvious improvement when I moved from the Halide HD DAC to the NuPrime DAC10 using these same speakers and amp. If I were in a smaller room I'd keep the speakers, they are quite good. What I notice is that whether with digital or vinyl, if a certain volume level is exceeded things get a little hard and so I believe it is with all speakers so I'm interested in a pair that has a higher ceiling so to speak.

I do think its a good Idea to go demo the Notty since I am serious. I'll ask about bringing my table, cart, and speakers to get a good idea of the improvements to be had.

[joegator81]

Joe G,
 
I've had both a VPI Classic original with JMW arm and an Avid Diva II w/ Origin Live Silver II arm.  I used a Shelter 501 MkII cartridge.  I liked both of them.  The VPI had a more incisive crisp sound--call it more lively.  The Diva II was slightly airier and more pleasant to listen to with less than excellent recordings.  Price of either with arm was similar--about $2100.  I bought the Classic new on sale at about $1800 and the Diva with OL arm was bought used for the $2100.  I liked the OL arm better as it doesn't wobble around due to its inherent design.  I got one of the Pete Riggle VTA bases to use with the OL arm.  It improved the sound slightly and made it real easy to remove the arm from the TT if needed.

I used these with VMPS RM40 which are very resolving and dynamic speakers.  The system is very resolving but with a tube preamp that softens the mids a little.

Thanks for the info on these two, sounds like you got a killer deal on each of these. I see that you didn't have the II SP, knowing what you know about the standard II do you think the SP deserves a "better" arm than the Rega 303?

[joegator81]

If you are keeping the Concept MC and it really has a compliance of 9/9 µ/mN, you would need a heavy arm.  If you go with VPI prime that has a 3D arm, you would need to use heavy screws like the ones Soundsmith offers.   If you do some reading and connect with local guys who would help, you don't need to deal with a dealer.  That will open up a used market where you can really get good stuff for 3 to 4 K, e.g. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-turntable-w-sme-5-arm-2017-10-12-analog  But then, you would need to upgrade the cart and phono stage to do justice to the table/arm.   

In this hobby, you are only going to hear the best your worst equipment in the chain will allow.  So you have to kind of move in lockstep or you won't hear an upgrade.  I don't know enough about your system to know if you are going to hear any upgrade from the Concept system.

Good to know, I want to get the best table, if I have to change carts eventually I would. Keeping it would be easier though as it is very nice.

[dolsey01]

VPI Prime owner and don't think you could go wrong with a Prime but for some reason I'm infatuated with the Gem Dandy Super12 Polytable. 

FYI, there is a fully loaded 9" Polytable on Agon and SoundStageDirect has a CPO Performance DC with the Clarify arm in you price range.

[joegator81]

VPI Prime owner and don't think you could go wrong with a Prime but for some reason I'm infatuated with the Gem Dandy Super12 Polytable. 

FYI, there is a fully loaded 9" Polytable on Agon and SoundStageDirect has a CPO Performance DC with the Clarify arm in you price range.

Yeh I saw that performance, I'm definitely considering it.

I saw the poly too. That looks like a hell of a deal but there are some upgrades on the super12 that aren't possible as upgrades to the regular poly?

[joegator81]

I'm gonna add the Kuzma stabi s to the list. Any thoughts?

[jtsnead]

Where are you, just put my Prime up for sale here and US Audimart

[Bob Stark]

Joe,
   
Yes, the Avid Diva deserves a better arm the the Rega 303.  Origin Live makes a Silver III arm for $895 new which is very good and would fit the Rega hole most likely.  If you go up the line, an OL Encounter III will be about $1795 and sound even better.  I am now using a Trans-Fi Terminator air bearing straight line tracking tonearm.  Not hard to set up, and you get great support from the designer of the arm.  If you don't mind the arm looking like a cutting lathe for vinyl, the arm sounds even better than the lesser OL arms.  I can't say about the more expensive ones however.  I'm pretty confident that the TRans-Fi arm sounds way better than its price point of $1275 with all the upgrades.  I am using this arm with a Lenco heavily modified TT.  The combo definitely beats the VPI Classic, and the Diva/OL Silver combo I had.  The dynamic are off the wall and it has a very driving PRAT overall.  I'm in the process of upgrading to a very substantial chassis compared to the stock Lenco.  I will also upgrade to the copper mat that will sit on the Lenco platter.  These 2 upgrades will take my Lenco/ Trans-Fi to new heights.  It will more than double the cost of my Lenco rebuild, too.  My TT already had the upgraded bearing/spindle, JTN string/mod, Audio Silente idler wheel, 10-layer birch plywood/MDF in various thicknesses weighing in at 100 lbs. plinth, and of course, the taking apart, cleaning and lubing all motor parts, and then setting the speed correctly. With the new HD chassis, the speed setting is much easier and more likely to stay perfect along with much less vibration in the moving parts.  If you ever had any DIY in you, the Lenco rebuild has a lot of helpful info on Lenco Heaven and Lenco users.  I had NO IDEA what I was doing and was finally able to pull it together into a very fine sounding machine--soon to be MUCH BETTER than that.

[sunnydaze]

I'm gonna add the Kuzma stabi s to the list. Any thoughts?

I owned it with the Stogi s arm.  Great setup.   

A good used price for the combo would be about $1500.

[joegator81]

Where are you, just put my Prime up for sale here and US Audimart

I'm in Florida, about 45 minutes north of palm beach

[joegator81]

Thanks again for all of the suggestions. I think part of the problem is the plethora of great turntables coupled with the inability to actually demo all of them in your home. I don't want to be second guessing myself.

[joegator81]

Got a preowned Nottingham 294 traded in to the dealer. Fantastic table and an obvious improvement over the already very good concept. Icing on the cake is the arm works very well with the concept MC cart so I don't need to upgrade right away.

The only problem is that when I demoed at the dealer they were running some rogue audio mono blocks that looked as beautiful as they sounded. It never ends

[twitch54]

Technics SL-1200G ..............