I have ordered a Pioneer PLX-1000 direct drive turntable.....

Wayner · « **Reply #20 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 06:56 pm »

As I said before, the fit and finish of the deck certainly looks nice. The 105 gram counterweight has a brass bass and seemed to be secure to the tonearm shaft, tho I thought the weight display dial maybe could have been a tad tighter. it nonetheless, didn't seem to be "loose" so I let that pass as an OK.

Mounting the AT440MLa presented no problems, however, any shorter slot length and I would not have been able to put it into Baerwald (Lofgren A) alignment, which would have been a deal breaker. Hint to Pioneer, make slots longer towards the end of the headshell.

I then did the bubble test for azimuth smear (which basically means that the tonearm vertical pivots are parallel to the alignment. While the table wasn't level at this point, the test did prove that the engineering was correct.

Cue up:

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #21 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 06:58 pm »

Next, I could not achieve a parallel arm with the AT440MLa and the supplied mat, so I added mine, which is 3/32" thick (.094), 50 durometer open cell sponge EPDM.

I set the VTF using the old fashioned method of zero balancing, then zeroing out the dial, then setting it to 1.6 grams. I then used my calibrated digital scale and weighed the results, off by .06 for a 1.66 gram VTF. Close.

Next it was time to set anti-skate. As some of you may (or may not know), I use a blank disc to do this. If you do not like this method, that's fine with me, but it does show if the AS is working or not. At the recommended 1.6 setting, the arm ran to the spindle. I had to actually bring it up to 5.1 to get the arm to sit on the disc without movement. My Technics SL1200MKII is only slightly higher then the recommended setting (at 2.1) with this test. The good news is that I still had enough travel on the dial to get to where I wanted.

Photo of table running, stylus on acrylic disc, arm stands still:
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Wayner · « **Reply #22 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 06:58 pm »

Some lingering notes on the physical parts of the table would be that I think the que drops a bit faster then I like, but its OK. The stylus doesn't bang on the record surface. I would have designed it so it dropped slower.

Torque: While Pioneer claims that the torque is even better then the Technics SL1200MKII, I say bullwack. I use a Discwasher brush, lightly damped with water and alcohol to remove lint before play and I can easily slow the platter down, more so then the Technics.

The Dust cover does not hinge, but rather just sits on it. It has a lip like the old AR-XA cover. Probably just fine. I don't use them, nor do I keep them on the tables that I have, so I don't really care.

Wayner · « **Reply #23 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 06:59 pm »

I have no tools to measure platter flatness, but I would guess it to have a warble of about .003", probably not much difference between the Pioneer and the Technics on that one. The platter fits the spindle seat (it's tapered), very well.

I have also done a "rap" test, tapping on the plinth top while the record is playing and not playing. Almost all tables produce some sound with this test. I didn't think it was anything out the norm that I have heard before.

The speed indicator dots fluctuate in size, due to machining tolerances, but they do not seem to drift forward or backward. Looks pretty much like the Technics in this regard as well.

I have finished 1 LP while I have been typing this, Thomas Dolby's "The Aliens Ate My Buick" and I felt the sound stage and musical content was as the Technics, but I will do some heavy duty listening later.

Wayner · « **Reply #24 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 06:59 pm »

The AT440MLa height is a tad bit short and it shows in the manual as well. The zero setting for VTA has the cartridge height at 19, but my AT is only 17, or maybe a hair less. Adding a thin soft mat on top of the stock mat is one of my DD tweaks anyway. It really takes any surface noise out, without killing the bass or muddying up the mix.

I should note that I've had to re-level the feet. They must be "settling in".

The Grado hum really bums me out......

The AT has zero hum, BTW.

'ner

Wayner · « **Reply #25 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 07:00 pm »

I did a little tweak that I think everyone should do. That is putting a drop or two of 1000cst liquid silicone on the tonearm pivots. It changes things for the good. Just is a better idea to not have dry bearings. I also always put a tiny dot of plasticlay on the front end of the AT.

Wayner · « **Reply #26 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 07:01 pm »

One of my conclusions is that Pioneer (or Hanpin) were so good at copying the Technics that they even copied Technics mistakes.....I say that because modern day cartridges have a lower profile and if you are going to tool up a table like this, why wouldn't you consider the audiophile rather then just the DJ. Hence the need for mat height adjustment to gain a parallel arm for the AT440MLa.

The performance (or lack there of) of the anti-skate control is becoming a large issue with me. Along with the Grado hum, is 2 stikes against the table.

Wayner · « **Reply #27 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 07:02 pm »

So, If I can narrow down a few things.

Here we have a table that only costs $700. It looks very nice and professional. It has lots of mass, which most of us think is good.

On the other hand, it hums with Grado cartridges (and maybe others), the anti-skate control (as with other Hanpin products), is almost a "knob to no where" and has only effect at the extreme of the dial. The torque claims are certainly questionable.

The fact is, I could not review the table without doing modifications to it and having certain test instruments to verify performance, that other customers would not have (blank disc to test AS).

To top that off, I could barely get the table into a Baerwald alignment. It is literally at the very end of the slots. So putting the table into my preferred alignment, the Lofgren B, is not possible unless I have my friend slot out the headshell with his CNC milling machine.

Wayner · « **Reply #28 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 07:03 pm »

I have decided that this table is going to be returned. I started to wonder about my Technics SL1200MKII, so I did an alignment check on it, and I actually had it in a Lofgren B!! I guess my memory failed me.

Rechecking the alignment of the Pioneer in the Baerwald alignment, I'm on the edge of the spot, it should go a nudge more forward, and there is no room to go. I'm not going to start filing out slots and shaving down screw heads.

I'm also under the opinion that Pioneer did not design this table, but rather Hanpin. Pioneer told hanpin what they wanted, and Hanpin incorporated all the same mistakes from their other models. Same non-working AS, Same poor, ill-fated headshell geometry, same VTA height issues/mat thickness/arm parallel snafu.

Sorry guys, but this one is not the one. I am looking to buy my last table and I guess the mission is not over.

Wayner

RDavidson · « **Reply #29 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 07:34 pm »

Thanks for the detailed assessment, Wayner. I was really hoping the Pioneer would be a true drop-in for the void left by Technics.

S Clark · « **Reply #30 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 07:37 pm »

Thanks, Wayner, for a very helpful, no BS review. You are a valuable resource here in the Vinyl circle.

avahifi · « **Reply #31 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 07:48 pm »

Wayne, thanks much for a really nice evaluation of the Pioneer TT/Arm. Too bad about so many down issues.

By the way we sold another Longhorn Gold today. Mary will get you the details.

Frank

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #32 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 08:46 pm »

Thanks from this quarter as well Wayne. A very fair and informative review that reveals more about this product than all of the mainstream and ezine reviews combined, great work.

Wayner · « **Reply #33 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 09:04 pm »

Thanks to all. I am still upset, because I have no turntable for myself (wanting to buy that last one), nor do I have an inexpensive one to recommend to newbies. I just don't understand what the problem is to engineer something correctly. By now, every arm made today should be able to be put in any of the popular alignments. I could maybe have let the AS thing slip, but if the spring stretched, I'd be screwed.

'ner

neobop · « **Reply #34 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 11:04 pm »

Hi Wayner,
I'm curious about your opinion of the potential of the table without those obvious flaws. What if the headshell slots were long enough for Lofgren B, and the AS worked as it should? Care to venture a guess?

I know you made an AS device for an AT. It shouldn't be necessary, but it is what it is. I have to elongate headshell slots for my Sony, otherwise it's Stevenson.

Those two little screws on the underside of the arm behind the headshell collet allow azimuth adjustment on some arms. Any chance that works on the Pioneer?

Quote from: Wayner on 5 Mar 2015, 06:58 pm

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Seeing how NOS 1200's are going for over $1K, this might be viable with some modification?
neo

jarcher · « **Reply #35 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 11:18 pm »

Thanks for the review. The issues you mentioned don't seem to merit returning it though : you were able to set it up with at least a Baerwald alignment & get the anti-skating right even if the dial had to be turned up higher, and many better tables also hum with Grado cartridges. None of those seem like a deal-breaker. I doubt many prospective buyers of this table are going to sweat less than perfect overhang or AS, though I suppose the Grado hum issue could be a bigger deal for sum.

Does it otherwise sound like a decent table? Have you checked if it's otherwise accurate on the speed (e.g. either using a strobe / disk or Dr Feickert app & 3150 Khz test tone record)?

Seems to me at $700 if it otherwise sounds decent & and is able to maintain good time, then it should be a keeper. There are obviously other budget tables such as Pro-Ject Debut carbons etc that are decent tables at around or less than $700, but nothing direct drive with that kind of mass.

NIGHTFALL1970 · « **Reply #36 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 11:53 pm »

Wayner,
Thanks so much for the review. It sucks that you have to send it back.
I guess I'm back to trying to choose between the Rega RP6 or the VPI Scout Jr. at more than 2X the price.

Wayner, what other tables are you considering?

Wayner · « **Reply #37 on:** 6 Mar 2015, 02:15 am »

I don't have any idea right now....Maybe the Marantz?

Wayner · « **Reply #38 on:** 6 Mar 2015, 01:08 pm »

Quote from: jarcher on 5 Mar 2015, 11:18 pm

Thanks for the review. The issues you mentioned don't seem to merit returning it though : you were able to set it up with at least a Baerwald alignment & get the anti-skating right even if the dial had to be turned up higher, and many better tables also hum with Grado cartridges. None of those seem like a deal-breaker. I doubt many prospective buyers of this table are going to sweat less than perfect overhang or AS, though I suppose the Grado hum issue could be a bigger deal for sum.

Does it otherwise sound like a decent table? Have you checked if it's otherwise accurate on the speed (e.g. either using a strobe / disk or Dr Feickert app & 3150 Khz test tone record)?

Seems to me at $700 if it otherwise sounds decent & and is able to maintain good time, then it should be a keeper. There are obviously other budget tables such as Pro-Ject Debut carbons etc that are decent tables at around or less than $700, but nothing direct drive with that kind of mass.

I aligned the table the first time in a hurry. On second check, it was off a bit and the reality was that it could not be put into a Baerwald alignment. The AS dial for 1.5 setting was at 5.5, leaving .5 until the end of the dial. and yes it hummed.

If you bought a new car and it had three major problems, would you start re-engineering it or take it back to the dealer. In this day and age, with CAD (computer aided drafting), 3D modeling and CNC manufacturing machines, there is no reason why I have to buy something and then modify it because the manufacturer was either to ignorant, didn't care or a host of other reasons to make it work in today's world. The entire product lineup of Hanpin has all of these same problems.

Could you imagine how many tables they would be selling if they knew geometry? Or understood how AS works, or that some people might want to plop a Grado onto the deck. I'm not going to reward people that make bad designs. I'm tired of making things "work".

To Neobop,s comment, yes I could of made those things work, except for the hum. Maybe with a few sheets of Mumetal, I could have knocked that down too. But for a new table to have these many design flaws, I have to ask who is "asleep at the wheel"?

It's funny that we all bitch about the records that are being pressed, while we ignor the horrible tables being made. They all have their own problems too. Why is it so hard to make a table that has all the things right?

Thank God for vintage.....

Wayner

wushuliu · « **Reply #39 on:** 6 Mar 2015, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 6 Mar 2015, 01:08 pm

I aligned the table the first time in a hurry. On second check, it was off a bit and the reality was that it could not be put into a Baerwald alignment. The AS dial for 1.5 setting was at 5.5, leaving .5 until the end of the dial. and yes it hummed.

If you bought a new car and it had three major problems, would you start re-engineering it or take it back to the dealer. In this day and age, with CAD (computer aided drafting), 3D modeling and CNC manufacturing machines, there is no reason why I have to buy something and then modify it because the manufacturer was either to ignorant, didn't care or a host of other reasons to make it work in today's world. The entire product lineup of Hanpin has all of these same problems.

Could you imagine how many tables they would be selling if they knew geometry? Or understood how AS works, or that some people might want to plop a Grado onto the deck. I'm not going to reward people that make bad designs. I'm tired of making things "work".

To Neobop,s comment, yes I could of made those things work, except for the hum. Maybe with a few sheets of Mumetal, I could have knocked that down too. But for a new table to have these many design flaws, I have to ask who is "asleep at the wheel"?

It's funny that we all bitch about the records that are being pressed, while we ignor the horrible tables being made. They all have their own problems too. Why is it so hard to make a table that has all the things right?

Thank God for vintage.....

Wayner

No doubt no doubt. Good points all.