[missouricatman]

Yes, the Sansui is an 80's era integrated amp, & more than one person has told me that in the Sansui line, it's got one of the better phono stages.  I've always liked it, but it's best put into the basement system.

I've just completed my Sansui reference recordings and the very first on on the AVA Insight +.  In between, of course I had to actually step back, bring the main amp up and give it a listen. I started with the Herb Alpert, the only 12" 45 rpm in the bunch, and one I know full well extends above 20k, even on my meager system.

Well, Mark, "blown away" probably's pretty accurate! This going to be a REAL interesting (and pleasurable) afternoon. Stay tuned.

[missouricatman]

Mark,

Yes, interesting coincidences here.  My two V15 IIIs came on Duals I picked up for under $20. The 1219 set me back $10. Massive difference when I got my first JICO SAS stylus.  Whether it's the boron cantilever or the SAS shape, nude tip or all three, it really works in this cartridge.  I'm doing the recordings today on my second SAS, which had only a few hours on it when I started.

SL-D3 . . . My first separate 'table, bought back in the 80's was an SL-D2, with an Ortofon in it.  Still have them both, but really, really need to get that Thorens rebuilt.  Darned thing worked fine when I got it, but of course I had to break it down and start in on the thing.  Haven't had time since.

Wynton's been sounding great in between recording.  I'm running that laptop only on battery for the test and ended up having to let it recharge before I could move on.  Joe Sample coming up.

[tipatina]

Missouricatman, Can't wait to hear your report. I am anxiously awaiting the return of my T8+ with the new phono stage. I run a Grado Reference Sonata  on a Well Tempered Amadeus (but did have a Dual back in the day!) Your choice of Hot House Flowers was interesting to me. The version of "Stardust" on Hothouse Flowers is still so arrestingly and hauntingly beautiful after all of these years that it will be the first one I play when my preamp returns. Also thanks to Markminn for his original detailed and thoughtful review.

[missouricatman]

Tipatina - You clearly have me beat when it comes to the turntable!  I really need to dig into the recordings I've made with the old and new setup, but for the moment what I can say is that even with a pretty modest turntable, the phono stage in the Insight + EC does best the old Sansui.  I can also say that being kind of into horns (which may explain the Klipsch RF-82IIs) my impression is I'm hearing more throat.

[Minn Mark]

It's been a  while since I listened to Hot House Flowers, but your recent responses had me getting it onto the platter last evening. Had enough time for just a quick listen to Stardust.  I agree: with my system, the trumpet sounds great. I'm not a fan of this mix though. While in my system the placement of the various instruments is easily distinguished, I don't care for the way the engineer mixed in the orchestral parts. For me, this would have a lot more impact if would be the simpler combo: trumpet, bass, piano and percussion.  WIll leave it on the TT a few days for a more thorough refresh.  I am interested in seeing your thoughts on the Bill Evans (Waltz for Debby).

Glad your'e impressed. I think the Vision Phono will continue to enlighten you as to the truth in the recordings; some of your favorites may actually sound worse because the Vision will give you an Insight (pun; sorry !) about what are well recorded performances versus those that aren't.  One in particular for me is John Hiatt's Bring the Family. I have an 80's English pressing of this album on Demon records, and it was one of the first ones I heard along with Frank years ago when I bought my first preamp (Omega series) with phono from him. After he pointed out some of the faults to me, it's amazing how I really like these performances, but I get how poor were some of the mixing and compression choices.  Pull out what you deem to be your 'best' and test them using the Insight+ with Vision.

Happy listening,

Mark

[missouricatman]

Afternoon Mark,

My purchase of the Insight + seems to have prompted my wife to purchase a piece of furniture for the living room, which has led to me channeling my inner interior designer today.  In a day or so, this will circle back to adding some sound deadening to the interior of the entertainment center that is home to the Dual (see attached). I know people are cringing, but this is the living room & I have some odd conceptions about what living rooms should look like.  Now that I have something half the height of the Sansui, the turntable will get dropped down a few inches.  I may actually put the Insight + below the center channel, but do wonder if the magnets in it might adversely affect the signal.

In any event, this AM before my better half woke up, I spun a few Naradas and Windham Hills, which have always been good for me over morning coffee.  My idea of a clear difference in sound is when I'm ignoring the music and suddenly something makes me pay attention.  That happened several times this morning.  Despite the volume being set low, I realized what was getting my attention was attack.  Attack on violins, pianos, pretty much everything.

For some reason I started thinking of cars with soft rides vs. sports models with suspensions that let you really feel the road.  I know similar analogies have been made with respect to cartridges, but this was the first time I really gave much consideration to the reality of my own system. Despite the Dual's shortcomings, with that SAS stylus it's been putting out more than the Sansui was able to pass along down the line.  The Insight + certainly resolved one weakness in my system.

More later.  Time to move some furniture.

Jim

[missouricatman]

Minn Mark,

Waltz for Debby - OK, it's dead quiet this AM, so I thought, why not?  This is a Riverside/Fantasy reissue and I've never heard any other pressing, so I've nothing to compare it to.

I started by listening via my Sennheiser HD598s plugged into the AVA Insight + EC.  Now there are certainly better headphones out there.  Perhaps it's the open air design, but I've come to understand that the bass at times is a little thin.  No surprise, again they just seemed to lack a little weight.  The Insight + EC tone controls, which I've toyed with enough to know they're smooth and on my system, provide a nice, but subtle, boost, really didn't do much for the headphones, but I'll chalk it up to the headphones.

The Insight + did a great job, so great that I pulled the headphones off a couple of times thinking my wife had gotten up early and snuck up behind me.  Nope, it's the audience.  I'm picking up some of what's being said here and there.  An "oh yeah," that unfortunately didn't seem directed at the musicians.  Where were these guys set up? Next to the bar? No, actually sounds like someone picking up glasses and clinking them as they go on a tray.

One thing about this pressing, it's pretty darned quiet and the Insight + really, um, brings out the silence! Normally I'd expect to hear some noise mixed in with the audience, but I don't.  When track one applause fades out, I hear, well, not much of anything.

Then I played side one again, through the Denon and Klipsches.  OK, now the audience recedes and is no longer overbearing. Still obviously there, but the headphones were making them rather annoying.

 I found myself tracking Scott Lafaro's bass, noting that as he'd go up and down the scale, the Insight + tracked it quite nicely, meaning the response seemed even all the way down. Little clicks at times that made me think I was hearing nails on strings & perhaps I was. String gets hit hard and the rapid spread out & snap back vibrations, well they're certainly there. Sorry, I'm sure there's a better way to describe how differently a string sounds when it's really stressed.

I have to say Paul Motian's brushwork on Detour Ahead is nice, smooth, subtle.  Better than I've heard it before? Hard to say.  I can only say that this AM it does sound quite nice.

On the technical side of things, I've been able to confirm that the Insight + has helped reduce and isolate a 60Hz hum I've fought off and on for some time.  In the past if I were to crank things up (with turntable at idle), I could hear it. Apparently the Sansui was a contributor, but clearly the Insight's not (I would have been pretty surprised if it was).

Yesterday I was able to dress cables a bit, so took a few minutes to chart the noise floor.  I can still chart the 60Hz & harmonics, with 60Hz peaking at -86dB and the rest stair-stepping down, but still above of the noise floor. I should say that I'm charting using Audacity and I'm not at all convinced that the numbers are all that accurate.  Still it does help me with basic diagnostics.

In any event, I know the the line to the 'table is leaking, & that directing it away from the signal leads in the 'table does help.  A little surprised that now it's clearly only minimally related to the motor.  It only drops a few dB when the motor's idle, but sinks below the noise floor when I disconnect the line from the wall

While I can't hear it at all at this point, I don't like seeing it because I have to assume it's causing some problems, but I can crank everything up and all I hear is the gentle hiss of the floor.  Just something I seem to always be obsessing on, so when time permits I'll obsess a little more.

Jim

[Minn Mark]

Nice photos. I don't see an amp. Are you using the amp portion of the Sansui?  Now bitten by the AVA bug, you should look at Frank's line of amps- killer !

Yes, the Waltz for Debby is eerie in it's ambient cues. It can be one of those love-hate things. On some recrdings it can drive you nuts, all the extraneous noise. Evans' Portrait in Jazz also sounds excellent via AVA-Vision.  I'm  a long time fan of Leo Kottke so will be interested in your impressions there, as well. Try some Liz Story or Will Ackerman.  I think so far you are hearing what I reported using the Insight+Vision so it appears you have a fairly revealing system.  I don't use headphones much, but when I have, I enjoy the nice little headphone amp in the Insight. The tone controls are nice to have, but the effects are subtle; I prefer them this way. For more dramatic tonal alterations I have a graphic EQ. As I posted earlier, I don't use them much and mainly listen with them defeated. Likewise, the low Gain option is subtle, IMO.  In my room I do have to alter the balance, as I get some non-equal attenuation of the backwave signal from the Magnapans. Other than that, images are dead solid and pretty holographic. A great recording to test this is Dead Can Dance's Spiritchaser. An aural treat !

Happy Listening,

Mark

[missouricatman]

Mark,

Yes, I'd say anybody who buys an Insight + EC thinking the tone controls are like the old, coarse bass & treble knobs, needs to understand they're far more subtle.  This is a pretty sophisticated component and I imagine the thinking here is that it's going to be part of a system that's on par with it (my system being something of an exception).  I'm with you on this one.  They do what I need, do it well and do no more.

As for the balance control, again, remarkably smooth and subtle.  I say this after having done some recording and I often run into used vinyl where one channel's down a hair.  In the past I've made the adjustment on the Apogee Duet 2.  The Insight + balance control is even finer grained.  in cases where the Apogee control puts it on either side of where I want to be, the Insight + balance control gets it right on the money.

I seldom wear headphones for listening, but I got in the habit of using them for work decades back and still use them when recording or editing. I figured with the cats getting me up at 4 AM this morning, it made sense to use them so I could have a decent listening level with my wife asleep in the next room (I know what side my bread's buttered, y'know).

The amp in photo is the Denon AVR-990, which is at the bottom of the rack behind the glass door. Run in pure direct mode, it performs well enough for the front room.  I did temporarily hook up the Sansui to the Kilpshes a few months back and while it was marginally better than through the Denon, not enough for me to go to the bother of setting up source selector switches for the speakers.

I used to have the Dual & Sansui hooked up downstairs to a set of Infinity Reference 6's my wife bought me new sometime in the last century.  Big improvement, particularly in lower mids and bottom end.   It makes a lot more sense to put the Sansui back down there, perhaps temporarily set up the Dual 721.

Would I be willing to give one of Frank's amps a try after having gotten a taste of the AVA preamp? Well if finances permitted, sure.  He and his crew certainly know what they're doing and anybody looking to put together a really great system that delivers a lot more than what you'd expect based on price would be smart to take a hard look at his entire line. My problem is there are far too many home remodel projects that absolutely, positively need to take priority.  I figure it this way.  My wife was good enough not to blink when I told her I wanted to get the preamp, so it's probably a good idea for me to move forward on the kitchen, dining room, flooring throughout the house . . . 

OK, so you know your "New Age"! I imagine you know WH sent demos to stations like candy, apparently without much regard to station format.  Because of that, I've been fortunate enough to put together a pretty decent collection of near mint disks, most with the original bio sheets. I have Solid Colors up here, but if I remember my titles correctly, it's Unaccountable Effect I preferred, so should pull that one too.  Plenty of Ackerman who I understand has threatened to punch anybody who calls his music New Age. It does seem to be used as a catch-all.   The one I pulled the other day was Past Light. 

But the one I really want to check is David Lynch - Sky of Mind. I had that one on the old system downstairs once and the bells, the cello - I just kept kicking it up another notch and stepping back until I had it practically all the way up and I was the other side of the room.  Just amazing.

[Minn Mark]

Hmmm... I think you may mean Ray Lynch ?





I'm a guitarist (amateur), so I have lots of the WH Michael Hedges.  George Cromarty's good, too.  Yes, I picked up a 'hoard' of WH LPs (40+) for about $1 each some time back. Many look virtually unplayed. Good stuff.
 
M

[missouricatman]

Clearly I hadn't had enough coffee this morning. Yes, Ray Lynch, of course. I should have remembered, since I once sent him a message to see if there were still copies on vinyl available.  Got a nice reply from I think his wife saying they did have a few, but $50 was more than I wanted to pay. I don't have an original pressing.  The re-press has a much more boring cover.

I have I think two Michael Hedges and one George Cromarty.  A buck a pop's what I had to pay for the last big stash I ran into. Unfortunately a lot of them were more recent issues on the various spin-off labels.  I like them, but the earlier stuff interests me more for some reason.

[charmerci]

If you have the Sheffield Labs Dave Grusin Discovered Again album....that'll be a real treat sound-wise.

[missouricatman]

I do like Dave Grusin, but don't have that one.  I can count the number of Sheffield labs I have on one hand - and have several fingers left over (drat).

[missouricatman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3VxHIIqaEs

I've just uploaded Waltz for Debby (Riverside/Fantasy reissue), recorded this afternoon at 96/24 from the AVA Insight + EC line out, using the Apogee Duet 2 and a 2014 MacBook Pro.  Turntable is a Dual 1219, outfitted with a Shure V15 III and JICO SAS stylus. I have left some of the head and tail intact so one can hear what I hear between tracks.

Nothing whatsoever has been done to the recording, other than fade up and out.  Level is exactly how it was captured, probably about -3 dB. Album art is also from my copy.  People with better copies/better systems (and ears that didn't get too close to The James Gang at a South Dakota State concert in the 70's) I'm sure have heard this track better, but for me, this is certainly a step up from how it sounded before I got the Insight +

The track is set to private. 

[Minn Mark]

Aha. And the plot thickens. My first concert was JoJo Gunne at Nash Gymasium in Yankton, SD in the ealry 70's.  If you're a native South Dakotan, I would certainly assert that:

1) South Dakotans have astute musical tase, and
2) we gravitate toward good equipment, a la AVA !

I never did the State Fair, but did haunt SE SD a good many years through school at USD and playing in various 'weekend warrior' bands.  First band to play in the DakotaDome in Vermillion, back in the day...


I should add some Grusin to my library.

Happy listening,

Mark

[missouricatman]

Mark,

OK, I'm busted. While I live in the Kansas City area and have lived in Arizona a good part of my adult life, grade school and Jr. High years had me in Rapid, while high school was Brookings.  My father taught journalism at SDSU at that time, but seems the moment I enrolled at SDSU, he took a job in Lincoln, and I was left to my own devices in Brookings (Yay, Hobo Day!).  While I didn't even finish the first semester, I caught The James Gang and The Carpenters - both played in the same big air hanger type building.

Given your music chops & SDAK ties I have to wonder if you've ever crossed paths with some of the people I knew in high school who were musically inclined Randall (Randy) Royer who is still in SDAK and taught music for years at the university level, or the guys in a group called The Ride, some of whom did a tour in the ever-changing group The Fabulous Flippers.

In any event, I'm sure that my time in SDAK still makes me much of who I am.  I bought from AVA primarily because Frank seemed pretty grounded & while he's certainly proud of what he puts out (rightly so), part of what I think he's proud of is that he's found ways to keep his overhead down and seems to think that there's a bit of an obligation to pass that on to the customer. 

You know, There's well-known manufacturer of phono preamps here in the Kansas City area that gets a fair amount of tech press.  I did correspond with the fellow, even got an offer to buy an early prototype board of a phono stage that has sold pretty well for him.  I could have gotten a case, added shielding, etc., but in the end it still seemed like too much money for what I would have ended up with.  Perhaps it was that photo of him I came across on the web.  Him in what appeared to be a sports convertible.

If I had to sum up my philosophy of music, it's that at its best, music is supposed to bring people together to bring out the good in people.

Probably why I'm proud to say I've traded a lot more records than I've ever sold.  I don't see it much different from handing my garden vegetables over the fence to the new young couple who would like to have a garden one day.

OK, a couple more comments about the Insight +.  First just as you pointed out it's likely to bring out both the best and worst from records.  Fortunately my experience for the most part has been that my favorite records sound better, but at the same time I've had some instances where groove wear that resulted in some splattering of highs (brass, ocarinas), was a lot more apparent than it was on the Sansui.

Second, the Insight's also not as forgiving of my Dual 1219.  I have a nasty 7Hz resonance hump that I've always fought and it's pretty bad at the moment. Even records that appear pretty darned flat can get it going.  On the Sansui I seldom noticed it, but the Insight + has no problem reproducing the phase shifting that plays out on things like piano sustains and ringing bells.  It sounds rather like a minor wow, but mixed with a synth-like phasing. 

In truth I'm happy the Insight + is that revealing.  I was hoping it would be good enough for me to consider it the reference, the baseline for my system.  I wanted it to help me identify problems in other components and it certainly seems to be doing that.

Jim

[charmerci]

The best (and best sounding) Grusins are Discovered Again (the CD sounds fantastic - though I'm not crazy about the heavier Plus version), Mountain Dance and Out of the Shadows. His later stuff is a bit too MOR, soft and his band(s) are not as tight for me.

[missouricatman]

Charmerci - I have a copy of Mountain Dance.  I'll give that a spin

[missouricatman]

Update on the AVA Insight + playing Leo Kottke and a comment on my uploaded test recording.

The short story - the Insight + is performing at a much higher level than what I was able to capture in the test recording.  Whether it's via headphones at the Insight, the main amp, or playing through my Klipsch RF-82 IIs, there is so much more high end, attack, snap than what I'm capturing that it's really kind of embarrassing, so I'd say if anyone gives that upload a listen and wonders if that's all there is, let me assure you it's not.

I'd hoped to upload a track that would allow someone interested in getting a feel for how the tone controls work to hear what I hear, but that's just not possible. Listening to the test recording, where I punched in and out with treble set around 1:30, I couldn't hear the difference, but trust me, there is a difference.  If you feel that you need to open things up just a bit, that may actually be a hair more than you need.  On Burnt Lips it certainly is for me.  I'm on the fence as to whether the record as played on my system, really needs to be messed with at all.

I've listened to Burnt Lips a couple of times now, once last night.  In all cases Kottke's voice was so well anchored I thought I had him on a center channel, a really GOOD center channel.  I won't go so far as to say he was on a stool in my living room, but pretty darned close and if I had a better turntable pretty sure that would do it.  Again, a man's got to know his limitations, and in this case it's certainly not the Insight +

There's something about the edge of Kottke's voice that just works with his choice of instrument.  And as for the guitar, past experiences with it made me feel like he was crazy all over the place and kind of difficult to listen to.  This time while he's still kind of wild with what he does (in a good way), it seems a lot more coherent, easier to follow and certainly much more pleasant.  I had it on last night at what I'd call a "talk to the wife without raising my voice" level and found it a darned pleasant listen.  Look, when you follow up George Winston's December with Leo Kottke's Burnt Lips and don't find the transition jarring, to me that's something.

So once again the Insight + is proving out to be not only an outstanding addition to my system that has improved my listening experience greatly, it's providing me with a reference that's helping me pin down weak spots that I clearly need to address.  Exactly what I was hoping for.

[avahifi]

Note that the Insight+ preamps and Vision DACs are on sale right now at 15% off.

And if you purchase an AVA power amplifier at the same time as an AVA preamp and/or DAC right now, then all are 15% off, including the power amp.

The sale runs through the end of August.

Frank Van Alstine